Difference between revisions of "Talk:Chang'e"

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:::::::I like the sound of Jouga allot better but I find the argument about inserting established figures into fiction VS creating fictional character with the same name more compelling. Nuance is important here, it's not just that ZUN didn't make up the character from scratch, it's that he took a character with an established name and put it into his series. In the example listed by Camilo of Goku from Dragonball ({{H:title|hover for quote|Using Chang'e instead of Jouga just because it's most familiar to English-speakers it's same as if back then, when translators ran into 孫 悟空 from Dragon Ball manga they would have chosen to use スンウーコン/Sun Wukong instead of the author's and japanese pronunciation そん ごくう/Son Gokū for the sole reason of ''this is and established figure in Chinese mythology and it's not a character created by Akira Toriyama''.}}) it was a character who shared the name but wasn't actually the god inserted into the story, unless we are saying that Chang'e/Jouga isn't actually the goddess known by that name but actually an original character who shares the same name and some similarities then I don't think the comparison is relevant. I don't have very strong opinions about it personally (nor do I know enough on the subject to) but reading what has been written here that's my take away. Camilo mentioned there not being a consensus in recent edits so even though I wouldn't normally say anything on the top I gave my 2 cents, I hope others will do the same so we can get a consensus and move on. [[User:Ycdtosa|Ycdtosa]] ([[User talk:Ycdtosa|talk]]) 23:21, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 
:::::::I like the sound of Jouga allot better but I find the argument about inserting established figures into fiction VS creating fictional character with the same name more compelling. Nuance is important here, it's not just that ZUN didn't make up the character from scratch, it's that he took a character with an established name and put it into his series. In the example listed by Camilo of Goku from Dragonball ({{H:title|hover for quote|Using Chang'e instead of Jouga just because it's most familiar to English-speakers it's same as if back then, when translators ran into 孫 悟空 from Dragon Ball manga they would have chosen to use スンウーコン/Sun Wukong instead of the author's and japanese pronunciation そん ごくう/Son Gokū for the sole reason of ''this is and established figure in Chinese mythology and it's not a character created by Akira Toriyama''.}}) it was a character who shared the name but wasn't actually the god inserted into the story, unless we are saying that Chang'e/Jouga isn't actually the goddess known by that name but actually an original character who shares the same name and some similarities then I don't think the comparison is relevant. I don't have very strong opinions about it personally (nor do I know enough on the subject to) but reading what has been written here that's my take away. Camilo mentioned there not being a consensus in recent edits so even though I wouldn't normally say anything on the top I gave my 2 cents, I hope others will do the same so we can get a consensus and move on. [[User:Ycdtosa|Ycdtosa]] ([[User talk:Ycdtosa|talk]]) 23:21, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
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::::::::Well what does Jouga shares in common with the Chinese figure Chang'e so we can say it's the same character? Both drank the elixir of immortality and were married to a man who shot ten suns, ok... well, Son Goku shares the same traits as Sun Wukong; both were mischievous as a child due to their innocence, possess the staff Nyoibo and a magical cloud; granted the story doesn't follow the same path. But Jouga differs dramatically to the former too. She is imprisoned in a technologically advanced civilization behind a barrier that hides its existence, her real name is unpronounceable to earthlings, she has an undeclared enemy who seeks to kill her, and a few more traits that are exclusive to Touhou. My point being we should treat both as distinct characters, just like Kaguya Houraisan with Princess Kaguya, Eirin Yagokoro with Omoikane, etc.--[[User:Camilo113|Camilo113]] ([[User talk:Camilo113|talk]]) 01:04, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
  
 
:Well since apparently there isn't consensus yet (though I would argue there wasn't consensus yet when the page moved from Chang'e to Jouga but I digress) I guess I will add additional context.  In Silent Sinner in Blue, when it first mentions this character, it mentions the "Second Lunar Invasion," a.k.a the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Lunar_Exploration_Program Chang'e Program], sharing the name of this character.  So what we gather here is that this character shares the name with the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang%27e_1 Chang'e Program], clearly indicating that 1) This character refers to the Moon Goddess that the Chang'e program is named after, and 2) This character should have the same name as the Chang'e program.  In addition to all the reasons mentioned above (instant context, recognition, descriptivism of the fandom, technically correct, etc.), I think it is the best interest of this wiki to use Chang'e instead of Jouga. Now on consensus, based on the recent conversation this year every since it was opened up again, I think the majority that has spoke so far appears to be in favor of naming here Chang'e? --[[User:DTM|DTM]] ([[User talk:DTM|talk]]) 00:07, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 
:Well since apparently there isn't consensus yet (though I would argue there wasn't consensus yet when the page moved from Chang'e to Jouga but I digress) I guess I will add additional context.  In Silent Sinner in Blue, when it first mentions this character, it mentions the "Second Lunar Invasion," a.k.a the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Lunar_Exploration_Program Chang'e Program], sharing the name of this character.  So what we gather here is that this character shares the name with the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang%27e_1 Chang'e Program], clearly indicating that 1) This character refers to the Moon Goddess that the Chang'e program is named after, and 2) This character should have the same name as the Chang'e program.  In addition to all the reasons mentioned above (instant context, recognition, descriptivism of the fandom, technically correct, etc.), I think it is the best interest of this wiki to use Chang'e instead of Jouga. Now on consensus, based on the recent conversation this year every since it was opened up again, I think the majority that has spoke so far appears to be in favor of naming here Chang'e? --[[User:DTM|DTM]] ([[User talk:DTM|talk]]) 00:07, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
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::Since writing more stuff would be repeating myself, and the facts provided here by other users, over and over I'll limit myself to analyse the arguments. First of all, using Hou Yi as an example is far from being correct since he, as it is, has never been mentioned in an official work, therefore his name has never appeared in the Touhou universe at all. Second, in [[Silent Sinner in Blue]] the [http://i.imgur.com/xfymf77.jpg whole page] where Rei'sen and Eirin talk about Jouga, they refer to her as {{ruby|嫦娥|じょうが}} (''Jōga'') and the very Plan is written as {{ruby|嫦娥計画|じょうがけいかく}} (''Jōga keikaku'') so yeah like you said, the Plan had indeed the same name as the person imprisoned on the Moon. We already know that ZUN can atribute Chinese pronounciations to his characters; we don't call ''Chen'' ({{lang|ja|橙}}) as ''Daidai'' ({{lang|ja|だいだい}}) nor we refer to ''Hong Meiling'' ({{lang|ja|紅 美鈴}} - {{lang|ja|ホン・メイリン}}) as ''Kurenai Misuzu'' ({{lang|ja|クレーナイ・ミスズ}}) because in each case the furigana ZUN gave them was of crucial importance for pronounciation and, as consequence, translation; and this case is no different. Each time you name Chang'e as being more recognizable to the people I wonder if that's really the objective of this wiki. This is the [[Touhou Wiki]] were we gather and comprehend ZUN's sole work. If ZUN gave us a name and the way to read it, we should potentially favor that use. He is the author after all. I really don't get this whole "let's dismiss the author's opinion over this" stand. And, as a very fact, the original translators of Silent Sinner in Blue ''did'' [https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/silent_sinner_in_blue_ch02#21 acknowledge the fact] her name was pronounced Jouga.
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::As complementary information, I would like to add that the the Japanese fanbase had [http://lohas.nicoseiga.jp/thumb/5710271i? never had] [http://i.imgur.com/AHAUFTH.jpg this] [http://seiga.nicovideo.jp/seiga/im6175682 problem]. From the beginning they refered to her as じょうが and they continue to do so.
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::Heck, even the Japanese Bougetsushou Wiki [http://wikiwiki.jp/bougetsu/?cmd=read&page=%D1%B3%B7%EE%BE%B6%CD%D1%B8%EC%BD%B8&word=%A4%B8%A4%E7%A4%A6%A4%AC#mb658414 refers to her] as {{lang|ja|嫦娥(じょうが)}} [http://wikiwiki.jp/bougetsu/?cmd=read&page=%D1%B3%B7%EE%A5%B9%A5%EC%C5%AA%A5%AD%A5%E3%A5%E9%BE%D2%B2%F0%2F3&word=%A4%B8%A4%E7%A4%A6%A4%AC#y4688d69 romanizing it as Jouga].
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::--[[User:Camilo113|Camilo113]] ([[User talk:Camilo113|talk]]) 01:04, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:04, 9 June 2017

Renaming Chang'e as Jouga across the board[edit]

As near as I can tell, in all instances where 嫦娥 appears in official text, from Silent Sinner in Blue to Cage in Lunatic Runagate to Junko's profile from Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom to the dialogue, there appears じょうが in furigana next to it. This usually indicates the author's intention of how a name is to be read...and it's not Chang'e.

Continuing to translate it as Chang'e is no different than if we decided to go with Qing'e instead of Seiga, Chun Hu for Junko, or Kurenai Misuzu for Meiling. He tells us how each is supposed to be, including Jouga. Though we ignore ZUN's preference for Kunrei-shiki in favor of Hepburn romanization, we don't just wholesale ignore his intention for a name, changing it to something else entirely, except in the case of Jouga/Chang'e currently.

While Chang'e is more well-known, at this point it's simply mere preference, ignorance or inconsistency why we've gone with Chang'e lately. I fell victim to it myself before this was pointed out. But even way back on the wiki we translated it as Jouga, the translation of SSiB notwithstanding. And given the evidence in its favor, I think we ought to continue to do so. UTW 22:19, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

It's not at all the same as your examples. Meiling and Junko are characters created by ZUN (even if Junko, and a few others, are loosely based on existing stories), but Chang'e is a well-established figure from Chinese mythology dating back millenia. She joins Taisui Xingjun in that category, where current translations also maintain the traditional Chinese name. Both of their English-translated names are well established, including in current English-language media, and derive directly from the Chinese, since they weren't filtered in by way of Japan first.
The furigana are necessary in Japanese since both characters in her name are not included in the Japanese school curriculum, so even most native speakers might not know how to pronounce them otherwise; this is typical usage and doesn't imply any specific emphasis. But it would be highly unusual to use the Japanese variant of a Chinese mythological name in English. Pretty much the only use of "Jouga" in transliterated Latin characters at all is a tiny handful of Touhou-related discussions like this one; it has exactly zero traction in historical work. -- Mazian (talk) 02:47, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
Wait a minute. Why would it matter if "Chang'e" is an established figure in Chinese mythology? If ZUN specifically writes the name as "Jouga" in the furigana, then that's how he intended it to be read as--This isn't a matter of being faithful to the Chinese myth, it's about being faithful to ZUN's interpretation of it. If he intended it to be read as "Chang'e", then there's no reason he wouldn't have written the furigana as 「シャンゲ」. This includes the comics, such as the name written as "Jouga" in the SSiB image shown on this very page.
Heck, even Japanese sites like Pixiv and Nico Nico specifically refer to the character 「嫦娥」 as 「じょうが」:
http://dic.nicovideo.jp/a/%E5%AB%A6%E5%A8%A5
http://dic.pixiv.net/a/%E5%AB%A6%E5%A8%A5
The games and comics were derived from a Japanese script intended to be read in Japanese--You don't mess with a translation by changing a name written in Japanese to that of a non-Japanese language just because it happens to be rooted in a non-Japanese lore. Grgspunk (talk) 20:37, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
I support renaming of article for the following reasons:
  1. While some users say it’s mythological character of Chinese origin and hence should be spelled in Chinese, it’s not necessary the case. We already have Bishamonten instead of Vaisravana in this very wiki. Zeus and Jupiter are considered the same character, but the name choice depends on context. You cal him Zeus when refer to Greek stuff, but he is Jupiter when you speak about Rome. There is literally no problem to call Chang’e Jōga when you speak about Japanese rendition of Chinese myth. Especialy the one in fiction.
  2. Author’s opinion is the ultimate for us, isn’t it? ZUN always gives furigana readings in recent character profiles. He has never had any problem to hint Chinese pronunciation there, so we know how Hong Meiling and Chen are supposed to be called. Yet he officially refers to “嫦娥” as “じょうが” in character profiles. I do not see a way we can ignore author’s opinion here.
Information about Chinese mythology origin of the character could be perfectly conveyed by article text itself. --Coyc (talk) 22:49, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
I support the changing too. I always found odd that Chang'e was named like that in the Western fanbase even tough the official sources used じょうが to refer her. I guess it stuck in the fanbase for so long it was a no-brain to call her like that. --Camilo113 (talk) 02:25, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Late to the party, but I am very much against changing Chang'e to Jouga for a couple of reasons. One, while we do try to be faithful to ZUN's work (except for Eternity/Etarnity Larva apparently), Chang'e/Jouga is not a character created by ZUN, rather a named and distinct goddess, who happens to have an established name and perception in English, which is Chang'e. Second, although I understand the point of this being a Japanese game, in my point of view we should be translators, not transliterators, especially when a word or a name has a clear English counterpart (or accepted counterpart). We use Youkai not because we are transliterarting, but because there is not suitable counterpart in English and the term is "accepted" in English (like on Wikipedia, clearly the most reliable source of information). Jouga is not "accepted" in English use, but rather Chang'e (although what is "accepted" is of course neboulus). We use Preta instead of Gaki due to Preta being the "accepted" English term, instad of the Japanese transliteration. Third, and this is a more pragmatic perspective, more people recognize Chang'e than Jouga, and thus using "Chang'e" will make it immediately clear to users about the context. English readers will recognize that the character refers to the Moon Goddess and not some character ZUN made up. I think moving it without notice was a mistake and I hope the conversation can continue. --DTM (talk) 22:15, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
I agree with this opinion. Mamizou (talk) 00:37, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
The evidence is provided at the very start of the discussion. If you somehow missed it (somehow), the ultimatum here is ZUN using 「じょうが」for 「嫦娥」in most sentences she's mentioned. --Camilo113 (talk) 01:09, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
I would like to comment that to me, it seems similar to our use of Bishamonten over Vaisravana. However, we should favour the use of more common terms in translations to English, I think. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 01:20, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
I saw that, but I don't see how that provides definitive proof. If this was a character made by ZUN, then yes that would indicate using Jouga, but this is not a character created by ZUN. ZUN just used the name of the Moon Goddesss that is most familiar to people in Japan, so of course he would put that there. This doesn't change the fact that at least in English, the Moon Goddess's "accepted" name is Chang'e. In my opinion, we should be translators, not transliterators. I don't think there is any doubt that this character refers to the Moon Goddess and not one of ZUN's original characters, so we should use the "accepted" name in English to refer to the Moon Goddess, which for right now is Chang'e. --DTM (talk) 01:30, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
I honestly find it quite difficult to keep this talk page as all the subject were explained at the beginning. But as I see it, Jouga isn't a character created by ZUN but it is a character belonging to the Touhou Project series, she has her own backstory, she differs from the original in many aspects, and, she has her own name inside the series. If ZUN wanted us to read her name as Chang'e he would have do it by using the furigana, like he did with Chen, but he didn't and instead he uses じょうが. As said before, this is the Touhou Wiki, we basically redact here ZUN's world, we don't look up ZUN's character and find an equivalent in English language to make it more mild to understanding. When you say that you read the first comments on this talk page and then say "I don't see how that provides definitive proof" it's like saying "I don't care how ZUN calls his characters in his series, because that character is based on an established deity of other culture and should be named like that, and this wiki should use that instead of using the one in the official works", as far as I know Jouga is a proper name and we shouldn't be translating her name. The other argument is that people want to keep it as Chang'e because it'll confuse the fans of the series as it has been called Chang'e for like what? 10 years now? This is a fair argument, but "keeping something wrong just because if we use the one the author uses it will confuse the fans" is somewhat silly. When you think about it, if Jouga where to appear in an official installment like a game or a character book, where the names are very often romanized, her name would appear as 嫦娥 (じょうが) Jōga and when the person tries to look up that name here in the wiki, it would find that she's named in Chinese, why? because she's based on that deity. okay?. AS it was said before, information about the mythology and origin of the character could be perfectly conveyed by article text itself.
Also, don't misconstrue when I say that using Chang'e is "wrong", it's technically correct, it's just that in the context of Touhou, that pronunciation has never came up in an official work.--Camilo113 (talk) 20:17, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
I guess this is more of a style point than anything else if both versions are technically correct. This wiki itself is not bounded by how ZUN's exactly defines the names, as evident by using Aya Shameimaru, Utsuho Reiuji, and Mamizou Futatsuiwa instead of Aya Syameimaru, Utsuho Reiuzi, and Mamizou Hutatsuiwa respectively (and that's not going into the Eterntiy/Etarnity debate). If both are correct, why not use the version most familiar to the English-speaking audience? Also, this isn't really ZUN's character, but rather he inserted an established character into his story. I think the best analogy would be the Percy Jackson series where the author inserts Greek Gods into the books. Yes Rick Riordan puts his own spin on those Greek Gods, but it is still clear that the characters refers to the Greek Gods in the myths. ZUN simply used the Japanese pronounciation to refer to this character because it is the one most familiar to his audience, Japan. Shouldn't we use the version most familiar to English-speakers when refering to this character, especially if both versions are technically correct and we've been using one version for 10 years? --DTM (talk) 05:24, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Those names have nothing in common with this debate, as they are just different method of romanization. In Shameimaru (射命丸 (しゃめいまる) ), ZUN uses Kunrei-shiki method of romanization, so that's why we get a しゃ (Sya), but this wiki uses Hepburn romanization as it's the best to render Japanese pronunciation for Westerners so we translate しゃ (Sha), same goes for Reiuzi/Reiuji and Hutatsuiwa/Futatsuiwa. As for Eternity (エタニティ) , not even ZUN could get along with a definitive romanization of her name, as he used Etarnity in-game and then in her omake he used Etanity. So translators decided to put what ZUN clearly means with エタニティ which is Eternity, and it's the correct romanization. Now, what you want to do is to change the pronunciation of a Character's name in the Series, that already has a definitive pronunciation explicit by the author; you want to go from じょうが to シャンゲ. This is clearly not the same problem, as it's not trying to change Jyouga (Zyoga?) to Jouga. Using Chang'e instead of Jouga just because it's most familiar to English-speakers it's same as if back then, when translators ran into 孫 悟空 from Dragon Ball manga they would have chosen to use スンウーコン (Sun Wukong) instead of the author's and japanese pronunciation そん ごくう (Son Gokū) for the sole reason of this is and established figure in Chinese mythology and it's not a character created by Akira Toriyama. Of course now Chang'e it's more familiar for the fans aside from the established deity which doesn't go the case, in my opinion, using Chang'e when this character page was created caused a deception on the fanbase and it was wrong as it didn't follow the author's pronunciation, it doesn't matter if Chang'e was used for 10 years now, it was incorrect in this context, and now it's the time to change it and stop deceiving newcomers and show actual fans how actually ZUN wanted us to read and pronounce her name. --Camilo113 (talk) 20:26, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
I guess we will just agree to disagree, but I think the sticking point is the furigana above the name and people interpreting this as a declarative statement on how the name is pronounced. I think this is an inaccurate assumption as many phrases in Japanese that has non-standard kanji need to have furigana in order to be comprehended due to the kanji not being in the Japanese school curriculm. So this isn't so much ZUN making a declaritive statement on pronounciation but rather making sure his audience knows the character he is refering to. Therefore, we shoulnd't take the furigana as an indicator of how Chang'e/Jouga should be transliterated. For what it's worth, the Vietnamese translation team uses Hằng Nga, the Vietnamese name of Chang'e (which happens to be a transliteration of the Chinese name), and this very wiki uses the traditional Chinese names for characters established in Chinese mythology. Even in this page it uses Houyi, the Chinese name of Chang'e's husband. Using Chang'e is technically correct and given the pragmatics mentioned above (instant context, more recognizable, and descriptivism of the fandom), I think it is also practically the right choice as well. Again, I guess we will agree to disagree and see what the general consensus of the fandom is. --DTM (talk) 16:37, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
I like the sound of Jouga allot better but I find the argument about inserting established figures into fiction VS creating fictional character with the same name more compelling. Nuance is important here, it's not just that ZUN didn't make up the character from scratch, it's that he took a character with an established name and put it into his series. In the example listed by Camilo of Goku from Dragonball (hover for quote) it was a character who shared the name but wasn't actually the god inserted into the story, unless we are saying that Chang'e/Jouga isn't actually the goddess known by that name but actually an original character who shares the same name and some similarities then I don't think the comparison is relevant. I don't have very strong opinions about it personally (nor do I know enough on the subject to) but reading what has been written here that's my take away. Camilo mentioned there not being a consensus in recent edits so even though I wouldn't normally say anything on the top I gave my 2 cents, I hope others will do the same so we can get a consensus and move on. Ycdtosa (talk) 23:21, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
Well what does Jouga shares in common with the Chinese figure Chang'e so we can say it's the same character? Both drank the elixir of immortality and were married to a man who shot ten suns, ok... well, Son Goku shares the same traits as Sun Wukong; both were mischievous as a child due to their innocence, possess the staff Nyoibo and a magical cloud; granted the story doesn't follow the same path. But Jouga differs dramatically to the former too. She is imprisoned in a technologically advanced civilization behind a barrier that hides its existence, her real name is unpronounceable to earthlings, she has an undeclared enemy who seeks to kill her, and a few more traits that are exclusive to Touhou. My point being we should treat both as distinct characters, just like Kaguya Houraisan with Princess Kaguya, Eirin Yagokoro with Omoikane, etc.--Camilo113 (talk) 01:04, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
Well since apparently there isn't consensus yet (though I would argue there wasn't consensus yet when the page moved from Chang'e to Jouga but I digress) I guess I will add additional context. In Silent Sinner in Blue, when it first mentions this character, it mentions the "Second Lunar Invasion," a.k.a the Chang'e Program, sharing the name of this character. So what we gather here is that this character shares the name with the Chang'e Program, clearly indicating that 1) This character refers to the Moon Goddess that the Chang'e program is named after, and 2) This character should have the same name as the Chang'e program. In addition to all the reasons mentioned above (instant context, recognition, descriptivism of the fandom, technically correct, etc.), I think it is the best interest of this wiki to use Chang'e instead of Jouga. Now on consensus, based on the recent conversation this year every since it was opened up again, I think the majority that has spoke so far appears to be in favor of naming here Chang'e? --DTM (talk) 00:07, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
Since writing more stuff would be repeating myself, and the facts provided here by other users, over and over I'll limit myself to analyse the arguments. First of all, using Hou Yi as an example is far from being correct since he, as it is, has never been mentioned in an official work, therefore his name has never appeared in the Touhou universe at all. Second, in Silent Sinner in Blue the whole page where Rei'sen and Eirin talk about Jouga, they refer to her as 嫦娥 (じょうが) (Jōga) and the very Plan is written as 嫦娥計画 (じょうがけいかく) (Jōga keikaku) so yeah like you said, the Plan had indeed the same name as the person imprisoned on the Moon. We already know that ZUN can atribute Chinese pronounciations to his characters; we don't call Chen () as Daidai (だいだい) nor we refer to Hong Meiling (紅 美鈴 - ホン・メイリン) as Kurenai Misuzu (クレーナイ・ミスズ) because in each case the furigana ZUN gave them was of crucial importance for pronounciation and, as consequence, translation; and this case is no different. Each time you name Chang'e as being more recognizable to the people I wonder if that's really the objective of this wiki. This is the Touhou Wiki were we gather and comprehend ZUN's sole work. If ZUN gave us a name and the way to read it, we should potentially favor that use. He is the author after all. I really don't get this whole "let's dismiss the author's opinion over this" stand. And, as a very fact, the original translators of Silent Sinner in Blue did acknowledge the fact her name was pronounced Jouga.
As complementary information, I would like to add that the the Japanese fanbase had never had this problem. From the beginning they refered to her as じょうが and they continue to do so.
Heck, even the Japanese Bougetsushou Wiki refers to her as 嫦娥(じょうが) romanizing it as Jouga.
--Camilo113 (talk) 01:04, 9 June 2017 (UTC)