Talk:Double Dealing Character/Music

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ミストレイク

The comments suggest that they are talking about Misty Lake. Should the title be Misty Lake, then? Code Slasher (talk) 20:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm kind of split on what to do with it myself. I don't think there's any doubt that the music title is supposed to refer to what we now call the Misty Lake. I'm inclined to believe that "Mist Lake" is how ZUN would translate 霧の湖 (kiri no mizuumi). Making this problematic is that it was impossible to predict this ten years ago.
Therefore, I think we have two choices, maybe three. We could call this title "Misty Lake", or we could change our "Misty Lake" to "Mist Lake". The third is to just leave them separate. I'm inclined to at least favour translating ミスト to Misty, even though it's not one-to-one. If following ZUN's rendering is of greater importance, then I think our lake may have to change names. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 20:21, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
It might be interesting to note that in Pokemon, カスミ is Misty. Code Slasher (talk) 01:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
カスミ just means "mist" on its own. "Mist" isn't a name; "Misty" is. La bruja pícaro (talk) 01:48, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
I think we should keep 霧の湖 as Misty Lake (referring to the location) and ミストレイク as Mist Lake (referring to the song). After all, they're different in Japanese, so they should have some differentiation in the English too. Polaris (talk) 01:57, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
In Japanese, it's obvious to anyone who understands the English phrase ミストレイク that it's the same thing as 霧の湖. The difference between the two phrases (that one is English and the other is Japanese) is something that recurs throughout the Touhou series. Thus, people are accustomed to that sort of difference. However, there's no equivalent difference in English, and the same feeling can't really be expressed. I think using different names for it in English would be confusing and unnecessary. My personal opinion is that we should keep them consistent, regardless of whether it's "Misty Lake" or "Mist Lake".Flan27 (talk) 02:06, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
As for カスミ, Misty sounds much more like a girl's name than Mist ever could be. Localization concerns exist in Pokemon that aren't that relevant here.
As for what Polaris brought up, he may have a point. In Touhou, we do have translations that do exist that we force to be different, yet similar. Ghostly Band ~ Phantom Ensemble is one such example. For the music titles, they do have to be different if we don't want to omit the Japanese part. And repeating the English just sounds silly.
So perhaps the problem is not that Mist Lake is incorrect. Misty Lake might be too similar now. Still, perhaps we could leave them as that and call it a day. I don't know. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 03:07, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I think we should keep them separate. "Mist Lake" is a music track title, "Misty Lake" is a location name, per Polaris. It's more confusing and unnecessary to conflate two different things under the same name. "Mist" and "Misty" are similar enough that people will know they are referring to the same thing. _dk (talk) 03:14, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Location names have been used as music names as well before. Just look at "The Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum". If we are to decide to join the two together, in the interest of fandom sanity, I suggest that we change "ミストレイク" to mean "Misty Lake". Code Slasher (talk) 21:23, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
The problem is that ミストレイク is not the exact same thing as 霧の湖; both mean the same thing, but are still pronounced and 'spelled' differently. 夢殿大祀廟 on the other hand is used in both. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 01:50, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Maybe ZUN is giving us a hint here? "Misutoreiku" (ミストレイク) sounds a lot like "Mist Lake", does it not (although it would send negative shock waves through the fandom)? Code Slasher (talk) 07:00, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't just sound like Mist Lake, it means Mist Lake. ミスト=Mist, レイク=Lake. That's the big deal.Flan27 (talk) 10:56, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, no one else has responded for a while, so should we try to get a general consensus? I think that changing Mist Lake to Misty Lake in order to be consistent with the place name would be best. The names are different in Japanese, but in a way which can't be expressed in English. I think that trying to express the difference would just end up seeming more like a typo or an inconsistency. My vote goes for Misty Lake, but please feel free to argue or agree with me.Flan27 (talk) 10:23, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

My vote is against combining two separate things into one name. There is no confusion keeping them separate. _dk (talk) 11:54, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Against. The slight difference b/w 霧の湖 and ミストレイク can be conveyed in English. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 14:03, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
I'd like to keep the two names separate, too. Gilde (talk) 17:57, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
I still think we should have them united. There is confusion keeping them separate. Code Slasher (talk) 07:14, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Can you describe the confusion? That people would be severely affected by the extra "y" describing the location? When ZUN uses two terms to refer to the same thing, we use two terms like he does. End of story. _dk (talk) 15:54, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Using two terms to refer to the same thing can lead to confusion. Mist Lake and Misty Lake are the same lake, not two lakes. We are also trying to translate Japanese; we do not know his English intentions. Code Slasher (talk) 06:42, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
One is a song title called "Mist Lake", one is a name of the location that we chose to translate as "Misty Lake" (or "Lake of Mist" before we decided on the current name). These are two different concepts (song vs place) that happen to refer to the same thing. ZUN uses two terms for them, and as translators we have the duty to convey these nuances, however minute. That we don't know his intentions in English is irrelevant, or else why do a translation anyways? Might as well "localize" everything by subjecting our own prejudices on the games. I feel like I'm repeating myself. That some people can get confused over something so simple is frankly not our concern. Hell, if it's really that confusing, change the name of the location to something else then, something that differentiates the two more than just a "y", use "Lake of Mist", "Foggy Lake", or something, just don't mix the two of them into one name (unless ZUN himself comes out to say he indeed intended to use "Mist Lake" as the English name). _dk (talk) 16:04, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Whether the two names are similar or not, the confusion stems from there being two different names in use, where it's not obvious which one is the actual place name. In Japanese, one name is Japanase and the other is English, and both are applicable to some degree. This duality cannot be expressed in English. The difference between Misty Lake and Mist Lake does not in any way reflect the difference between 霧の湖 and ミストレイク. It's generally a good idea for translators to keep separate terms in the original language separate in the translation as well, but this difference is so banal and meaningless in English that it's not worth the ambiguity it causes. My personal opinion is that it's best to combine the two, but it's obvious that our community hasn't reached a consensus at all. I've expressed my opinion and made my point, but I don't want this to keep going on and on. This is such a meaningless little thing that's it's not worth arguing about anymore, so, although some of us don't personally agree with it, let's just leave it the way it is. Flan27 (talk) 19:20, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

行き交う

Okay, I don't like this at all. Clumsy or not, "行き交う" is a specific verb that means "to come and go". "行ったり来たりする、出入りする、行き交う" means "During recess, the students are allowed to come and go as they please". "人々行き交う" means "people come and go". This is not the first time that a Touhou translation was clumsy. There is a hidden meaning that perhaps "traversing" could address more succinctly, but because "行き交う" is used, adding "at" should suffice. Code Slasher (talk) 14:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm confused, what exactly are you suggesting? And what's that about recess? The Japanese is just a list of verbs meaning to come and go, and similar things.Flan27 (talk) 16:49, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm not very good at English usage. But I suppose we should use "行ったり来たりする" (lit. come and go?) when the same person/people moves alternatively a few times in a short time — on the other hand, we should use "行き来する" (lit. traverse?) when many different people are moving straight while some of them go from left to right and the others go from right to left (i.e. just 2 directions). Show a few instances; imagine... you & your friend promised to meet at 2:00, and now it's 2:40. You have called him on the phone, only the sound "ring-ring" echoed repeatedly. You got very irritated to walk alternatively in a short way with your arms crossed and with your eyes toward the earth. This is "" --- it's just one people who moves. Go to the other example; you've got free time a little early for dinner, so you decided to enjoy smell of tea/coffee at a café. Get relaxed, read the book you brought in. After an hour, you found you stayed too long. Unconciously, you glimpsed outside with your blank eyes; many people walking from left to right of window and others in the opposite direction in the same time. This is "行き来" --- it's many people who move alternatively in the same time. --masuo64 Talk 01:39, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Why on earth would anything come and go "at" a canal? The whole purpose of a canal is to form a path between two bodies of water. So there are things either traveling on top of it or alongside it. If my current suggestion doesn't seem to capture the true meaning, how about something like "Humans and Youkai Traveling Along the Canal"? "Traveling" implies the back-and-forth motion of coming and going, and "along" implies both aquatic and land transportation. NForza (talk) 03:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
My original suggestion was to use "Humans and Youkai Coming and Going to the Canal", but for some reason Gilde threw that out and put "at". I thought it was because he knew something about the situation more than me (or maybe it was because of Quwanti's translation: "Humans and Youkai, Walking the Canal To and Fro"), but I can understand why "at" could be used: what if people are crossing the canal? Oh, and it does not matter whether "traveling" is implied or not, it is still "行き交う". Code Slasher (talk) 17:04, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
You really need not be so fixated on a specific interpretation. Like what Masuo said, 行き来 has the implication of general movement by several beings in or around a specific spot. It does not literally have to mean "coming and going". We could even say "The Lively Canal of Humans and Youkai" or something like that. Translation isn't just about being as accurate as possible; it should be aesthetically pleasing in the other language to, and using "and" twice so close to each other for no good reason is pretty awkward.NForza (talk) 09:33, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, "行き交う" translating to "coming and going" is the good reason. I had my examples listed above to possibly show how it only translates to "come[ing] and go[ing]". Quwanti was on the right track with "to and fro", but "to and fro" is a little archaic. One would have to imply a few things with "lively", and "traversing" translates to different characters in Japanese.
I don't know; I've always been a bit stubborn with changing important translations such as song and game titles. I'm always worried that we could lose our reputation as the leading Western translation site for official Touhou media. I'm not even sure that "Extend Ash ~ Person of Hourai" has completely caught on yet. Code Slasher (talk) 17:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't "only" translate to coming and going, that's just all the comes up in whatever dictionary you use. Go to www.alc.co.jp, type in 行き交う and see what comes up. The results are a lot more colorful and natural than just "coming and going". If you're so concerned about accuracy, you're going to lose people because it sounds just way too lame and stilted, and that's going to hurt your reputation just as much. And for the record, I think "Hourai Victim" is better because it has the extra implication that drinking the Hourai Elixir is kind of a bad thing. Sure, it's not there in the original Japanese, but through Mokou's story, you can see that she had a hard and lonely life because of it. NForza (talk) 06:51, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
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