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Talk:Hidden Star in Four Seasons/Music: Difference between revisions

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At best, it's a pun on this supposed loanword. Even then, there is absolutely zero reason to forcibly change it as has been done here. It is through this "translating English into English" nonsense that the meaning of the name has actually been changed, not through leaving the original English! "Backup Dancers" is at odds with what the characters actually are and what they do, as well as with ''everything else in the game''.
At best, it's a pun on this supposed loanword. Even then, there is absolutely zero reason to forcibly change it as has been done here. It is through this "translating English into English" nonsense that the meaning of the name has actually been changed, not through leaving the original English! "Backup Dancers" is at odds with what the characters actually are and what they do, as well as with ''everything else in the game''.


That aside, "Into Backdoor" should probably be "Into Back Door". Stage 5 establishes this, and refusing to put interpuncts between certain multi-word terms is a common thing in Japan. Here, we have to ignore that "backdoor" is normally a compound anyway, because of Stage 5. Consistency is king, because consistency generally makes more sense. The people who care about "those Japs not knowing our language 100% perfectly!!!!" are usually the same people who say that English is a "living language" and can be distorted however one pleases. [[User:Despatche|Despatche]] ([[User talk:Despatche|talk]]) 19:14, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
That aside, "Into Backdoor" should probably be "Into Back Door". Stage 5 establishes this, and refusing to put interpuncts between certain multi-word terms is a common thing in Japan. Here, we have to ignore that "backdoor" is normally a compound anyway, because of Stage 5. Consistency is king, because consistency generally makes more sense. The people who care about "those Japs not knowing our language 100% perfectly!!!!" are usually the same people who say that English is a "living language" and can be distorted however one pleases.
 
Also, this other reading of "backup" I'm seeing doesn't work at all either, because you're suddenly asking a lot of Mr. "Jap Who Doesn't Know Our Language" that you weren't asking of him just before. [[User:Despatche|Despatche]] ([[User talk:Despatche|talk]]) 19:19, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Revision as of 19:19, 23 August 2017

Illusionary or Illusory?

This is a bit pedantic, but though 'illusionary' and 'illusory' mean the same thing, 'illusory' is used far more often. Because of this, I think a strong case can be made for changing 'illusionary' to 'illusory' across the board. For example:

  • Merriam-Webster links you to illusory straight away when you search for illusionary.
  • A google search for "illusory" and "illusionary" in quotation marks reveals 11,100,000 results for 'illusory' as opposed to 3,170,000 results for 'illusionary.'
  • Even the wiki itself doesn't recognise illusionary as a proper word.

With that in mind, I'd like to propose that the stage 4 theme's title be changed to Illusory White Traveler. Biggest Dreamer (talk) 03:45, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, the main reason for people using "illusionary" is probably consistency, as this is used for a ton of stuff already. But I would argue that the difference is that something being "illusory" implies that it actually doesn't exist, that the thing itself is merely an illusion and potentially gives the appearance of being real but upon inspection is not. Meanwhile "illusionary" seems more specifically to me as something "of" illusion; its properties are those of an illusion. Specifically in the context of Touhou, it is as though it is something belonging to Gensokyo (幻想郷). Personally I feel that 幻想 is also appropriately said as "fantastical" or "of fantasy", but between "illusionary" and "illusory" I would pick the former. Drake Irving (talk) 04:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
That's a very good point. I originally just thought that 'illusionary' was a sort of misspelling of 'illusory' and didn't stop to think whether they actually have different meanings. But if they actually do (especially in the context of Touhou), then I see the sense in keeping 'illusionary.' Thanks for clearing that up! Biggest Dreamer (talk) 06:02, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Jizo? Backup?

Why is Narumi's theme no longer translated as "The Magic Straw-Hat Jizo"? Should it have never been that to begin with? I don't know cultural stuff that well but I'm probably not the only one wondering this. Also, how does "バック" translate to "backup" in the Stage 5 boss theme? They certainly don't seem to be backup dancers seeing as they're the bosses, and even then it would have to be "バックアップ" for "backup". Sherkel (talk) 05:58, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

After reading their abilities "backup" makes a lot more sense, but that would mean we need to change stage 6's translation too as the literal reading of the kana is equally awkward. Sherkel (talk) 06:14, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

バックダンサー seems to be a loanword for backup dancer regardless. It's play on their abilities and this word simply having the word "back" in it, which is obviously relevant throughout the game. Meanwhile "Into Backdoor" is exactly what it means; saying "Into Backdoor" might sound awkward but the intended reading doesn't change the meaning. Meanwhile "Crazy Back Dancers" changes the intended meaning because it uses a loanword. I can see the argument but don't particularly agree. Drake Irving (talk) 06:27, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Fuck! :P Guess this means I need to back down, but I'm glad to have that cleared up. What about the Jizo thing? Sherkel (talk) 07:33, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
See Talk:Narumi_Yatadera. Personally I'm more for Jizou but it isn't set in stone. Drake Irving (talk) 08:13, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
If we want to be consistent with how we do Music Themes, I think it should be it should be Ksitigarbha, which is the term used in English to refer to this Diety and the name used on the Wikipedia page. Personally, I think if there is a standard form in English, we should use that form. --DTM (talk) 16:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
As a native English speaker I know I've heard "Jizo" before and never "Ksitigarbha", but that's just anecdotal. I'm just gonna use "Jizo" because it's easier to say and accuracy is often second to that in translations for me, and let the rest of you decide which is more "correct". Sherkel (talk) 19:35, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, likewise voting 'Jizo'. ZUN mentions in the music comment that Japan's modern jizo statues are several steps removed from the original Ksitigarbha anyway, so I don't see much problem with it. Gilde (talk) 20:53, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I personally prefer "Jizo" (or "Jizou"?). I think in this case the term is more strongly tied to its Japanese context (since it's a reference to the Japanese folktale Kasa jizo), while the other case I remember (The Tiger-Patterned Vaisravana/Bishamonten) erred more on the side of Buddhism, I guess. So that's an iffy justification we can make :P (Although I would've picked Bishamonten over Vaisravana if it were up to me, anyway.) Polaris (talk) 22:43, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Crazy back dancers!

Good thing I didn't post here, or I would have just gotten mad. Yeah, no, "seems to be a loanword" doesn't cut it. The "intended meaning", which is clearly not known, is irrelevant because we're dealing with out-and-out English words here. You transliterate and move on, you don't try to translate English like that. God knows what would happen if people here tried to do that with non-Katakana English...

It's "Crazy Back Dancers". The entire nature of the game confirms this.

At best, it's a pun on this supposed loanword. Even then, there is absolutely zero reason to forcibly change it as has been done here. It is through this "translating English into English" nonsense that the meaning of the name has actually been changed, not through leaving the original English! "Backup Dancers" is at odds with what the characters actually are and what they do, as well as with everything else in the game.

That aside, "Into Backdoor" should probably be "Into Back Door". Stage 5 establishes this, and refusing to put interpuncts between certain multi-word terms is a common thing in Japan. Here, we have to ignore that "backdoor" is normally a compound anyway, because of Stage 5. Consistency is king, because consistency generally makes more sense. The people who care about "those Japs not knowing our language 100% perfectly!!!!" are usually the same people who say that English is a "living language" and can be distorted however one pleases.

Also, this other reading of "backup" I'm seeing doesn't work at all either, because you're suddenly asking a lot of Mr. "Jap Who Doesn't Know Our Language" that you weren't asking of him just before. Despatche (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2017 (UTC)