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Talk:Hidden Star in Four Seasons/Music

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Illusionary or Illusory?

This is a bit pedantic, but though 'illusionary' and 'illusory' mean the same thing, 'illusory' is used far more often. Because of this, I think a strong case can be made for changing 'illusionary' to 'illusory' across the board. For example:

  • Merriam-Webster links you to illusory straight away when you search for illusionary.
  • A google search for "illusory" and "illusionary" in quotation marks reveals 11,100,000 results for 'illusory' as opposed to 3,170,000 results for 'illusionary.'
  • Even the wiki itself doesn't recognise illusionary as a proper word.

With that in mind, I'd like to propose that the stage 4 theme's title be changed to Illusory White Traveler. Biggest Dreamer (talk) 03:45, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, the main reason for people using "illusionary" is probably consistency, as this is used for a ton of stuff already. But I would argue that the difference is that something being "illusory" implies that it actually doesn't exist, that the thing itself is merely an illusion and potentially gives the appearance of being real but upon inspection is not. Meanwhile "illusionary" seems more specifically to me as something "of" illusion; its properties are those of an illusion. Specifically in the context of Touhou, it is as though it is something belonging to Gensokyo (幻想郷). Personally I feel that 幻想 is also appropriately said as "fantastical" or "of fantasy", but between "illusionary" and "illusory" I would pick the former. Drake Irving (talk) 04:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
That's a very good point. I originally just thought that 'illusionary' was a sort of misspelling of 'illusory' and didn't stop to think whether they actually have different meanings. But if they actually do (especially in the context of Touhou), then I see the sense in keeping 'illusionary.' Thanks for clearing that up! Biggest Dreamer (talk) 06:02, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Jizo? Backup?

Why is Narumi's theme no longer translated as "The Magic Straw-Hat Jizo"? Should it have never been that to begin with? I don't know cultural stuff that well but I'm probably not the only one wondering this. Also, how does "バック" translate to "backup" in the Stage 5 boss theme? They certainly don't seem to be backup dancers seeing as they're the bosses, and even then it would have to be "バックアップ" for "backup". Sherkel (talk) 05:58, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

After reading their abilities "backup" makes a lot more sense, but that would mean we need to change stage 6's translation too as the literal reading of the kana is equally awkward. Sherkel (talk) 06:14, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

バックダンサー seems to be a loanword for backup dancer regardless. It's play on their abilities and this word simply having the word "back" in it, which is obviously relevant throughout the game. Meanwhile "Into Backdoor" is exactly what it means; saying "Into Backdoor" might sound awkward but the intended reading doesn't change the meaning. Meanwhile "Crazy Back Dancers" changes the intended meaning because it uses a loanword. I can see the argument but don't particularly agree. Drake Irving (talk) 06:27, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Fuck! :P Guess this means I need to back down, but I'm glad to have that cleared up. What about the Jizo thing? Sherkel (talk) 07:33, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
See Talk:Narumi_Yatadera. Personally I'm more for Jizou but it isn't set in stone. Drake Irving (talk) 08:13, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
If we want to be consistent with how we do Music Themes, I think it should be it should be Ksitigarbha, which is the term used in English to refer to this Diety and the name used on the Wikipedia page. Personally, I think if there is a standard form in English, we should use that form. --DTM (talk) 16:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
As a native English speaker I know I've heard "Jizo" before and never "Ksitigarbha", but that's just anecdotal. I'm just gonna use "Jizo" because it's easier to say and accuracy is often second to that in translations for me, and let the rest of you decide which is more "correct". Sherkel (talk) 19:35, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, likewise voting 'Jizo'. ZUN mentions in the music comment that Japan's modern jizo statues are several steps removed from the original Ksitigarbha anyway, so I don't see much problem with it. Gilde (talk) 20:53, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I personally prefer "Jizo" (or "Jizou"?). I think in this case the term is more strongly tied to its Japanese context (since it's a reference to the Japanese folktale Kasa jizo), while the other case I remember (The Tiger-Patterned Vaisravana/Bishamonten) erred more on the side of Buddhism, I guess. So that's an iffy justification we can make :P (Although I would've picked Bishamonten over Vaisravana if it were up to me, anyway.) Polaris (talk) 22:43, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Crazy back dancers!

Good thing I didn't post here, or I would have just gotten mad. Yeah, no, "seems to be a loanword" doesn't cut it. The "intended meaning", which is clearly not known, is irrelevant because we're dealing with out-and-out English words here. You transliterate and move on, you don't try to translate English like that. God knows what would happen if people here tried to do that with non-Katakana English...

It's "Crazy Back Dancers". The entire nature of the game confirms this.

At best, it's a pun on this supposed loanword. Even then, there is absolutely zero reason to forcibly change it as has been done here. It is through this "translating English into English" nonsense that the meaning of the name has actually been changed, not through leaving the original English! "Backup Dancers" is at odds with what the characters actually are and what they do, as well as with everything else in the game.

That aside, "Into Backdoor" should be "Into Back Door". Stage 5 establishes this, and refusing to put interpuncts between certain multi-word terms is a common thing in Japan. Here, we have to ignore that "backdoor" is normally a compound anyway, because of Stage 5. Consistency is king, because consistency generally makes more sense, and it definitely does here. The people who care about "those Japs not knowing our language 100% perfectly!!!!" are usually the same people who say that English is a "living language" and can be distorted however one pleases.

Also, this other reading of "backup" I'm seeing doesn't work at all either, because you're suddenly asking a lot of Mr. "Jap Who Doesn't Know Our Language" that you weren't asking of him just before.

These are clear typos, please allow people to fix them. Despatche (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying. How does 'the entire nature of the game' confirm that it should be "Crazy Back Dancers"? On the contrary, I think there's a wealth of information out there that supports translating バックダンサー to 'backup dancer' rather than 'back dancer.'
In this case, バックダンサー isn't even a loanword. It's what we call wasei-eigo. In other words, it looks like English, but it isn't. In these cases, we should always go with the proper English term which, in this case, is 'backup dancer.' I would like to present two websites to prove my point: [1] and [2]. The title of [1] can be translated as something like "To become a 'back dancer' involves..." and the title of [2] can be translated as "4 things you should know before auditioning to be a 'back dancer'." What's the common thread between these two? Yes. 'Back dancer' should be interpreted as 'backup dancer,' because that's just what we say in English. That's what the profession is called. I only chose two sites, but I can guarantee that you will find countless more sites by Googling that phrase. When choosing to transliterate or translate katakana words, it's always important to look at how the word is used elsewhere. It's clear that バックダンサー does not refer to anything other than 'backup dancers,' which proves that バックダンサー should be translated, not transliterated.
Transliterating katakana words is useless if it's just going to make things harder to understand. Satono and Mai are backup dancers, because they dance behind the protagonists or other people. That's simply what backup dancers do, and our audience (in this case, people who speak English) will understand the connection immediately. 'Back dancer' muddies the waters. I look at that phrase and compare it to 'tabletop dancer,' which now makes me think that Satono and Mai literally dance on top of people's backs. Is that what they actually do? Is it worth transliterating these titles if it invites that sort of misinterpretation?
In summary, my problem with your argument is that バックダンサー is not an English word. Instead, it's a Japanese word masquerading as an English word. It has an acceptable and commonly used translation, which I believe we must use here. Yes, language is fluid, but that doesn't mean we should ignore commonly accepted standards. Biggest Dreamer (talk) 00:14, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
But that's not how Japanese or English works. If it's an English word and not something made up, it probably means something when you attempt to transliterate it. Meanwhile, your strange interpretation of "backup", which is exactly what I had feared would happen, makes no sense. That's not what "backup" means (especially not in the so-called wasei-eigo you're referring to).
The misinterpretation is clearly on your end. What the game is doing is fine, and we should be respecting that. Again, what you're doing is very dangerous to play with, because you could easily try to apply this to every single actual Latin-written English phrase ever used in the series that you happen to find "off". You have just established precedent allowing people to do this! Please excuse me as I go fuck with every "weird" game and song subtitle ever (not actually doing this, just trying to make a joke). Despatche (talk) 13:44, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Backup Dancers are performers who dance with or behind the lead performers, which I think conveys what the abilities of Satono and Mai are, drawing out people's vitality/mental energy by dancing behind them, so I don't know how this is a "strange interpretation." I agree with Biggest Dreamer and the other people above. Interested on what other people think about the other point of Into Backdoor vs Into Back Door though. --DTM (talk) 19:22, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
lol at "so-called wasei-eigo" Polaris (talk) 04:53, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
Yeah Despatche I don't know what to tell you dude. In every context where you can find the word "バックダンサー" it's literally the exact same thing you'd call a "backup dancer" in English, this ain't hard. Also why are you so ornery about everything, maybe chill out a little Gilde (talk) 03:42, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
So we're just gonna get rid of ZUN's joke in favor of a different title, as if people weren't smart enough to figure out what "back-dancer" means? Mddass (talk) 17:27, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
There's no "joke," just repeated use of the word "back". "Back dancer" simply isn't a phrase people use in English; it's gonna look straight-up bizarre to any native speaker. "Background dancer," "backing dancer," "backup dancer," all those are common English phrases, but not "back dancer." Please allow this helpful internet mole to explain Gilde (talk) 02:38, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Wait a minute wait, hang on. The mole has struck me with a realization. Despatche... did you think "backup" exclusively meant "spare copy"... (edit: i'm not trying to poke fun i'm genuinely asking, sorry in advance) Gilde (talk) 02:47, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
A translation, by its very nature, is inaccurate. If you want accuracy, the only way to go is with the original title. Also, English is a natural language and can thuss be distorted however one pleases. If anything, it's only a non-prescriptivist perspective that might justify transliterating the katakana in this case instead of acknowledging the existence of the loanword. Sherkel (talk) 07:51, 5 September 2017 (UTC)