Difference between revisions of "Talk:Kasen Ibaraki"

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Also Kasen isn't a vampire because she goes out in the sun all the time without protection<br>
 
Also Kasen isn't a vampire because she goes out in the sun all the time without protection<br>
 
Please change from suspected to actual Oni thank you <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Goldilox|Goldilox]] ([[User talk:Goldilox|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Goldilox|contribs]]) 12:29 (UTC), 1 November 2018‎</small>
 
Please change from suspected to actual Oni thank you <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Goldilox|Goldilox]] ([[User talk:Goldilox|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Goldilox|contribs]]) 12:29 (UTC), 1 November 2018‎</small>
 +
:And now, as of April 17 2019, she's a full fledged oni thanks to Chapter 50 of WaHH. There's no if or "But Zun..." anymore. Her new title straight up has "Oni" in it. Her species should say "Oni (formerly Oni pretending to be Hermit)" now and the backstory should be rewitten with the info. Also 3rd Diva. [[User:Lebon14|Lebon14]] ([[User talk:Lebon14|talk]]) 22:37, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 22:37, 17 April 2019



Speculations are too early[edit]

I believe speculations should wait after some time (long time) until they are made. It's too early. MaronaPossessed 17:30, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

I think it's time. After buying it and reading the story plus the character. Some artist suggest. That her left arm is actually a mechanical one. -Dandan550 04:58, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Based on the first comic, it looks kinda like she might be sort of taking over Rinnosuke's role as "voice of (questionable) wisdom" and general social commentator.

Luceid 05:43, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

And what's going to happen if future chapters show it's not the case? It's been one chapter. Not much has happened except for a general feel of what the story is. By telling everyone that now, we'll already have forced "your" (the editor's) interpretation of the character onto everyone and anyone's who's read it without it without prior knowledge will have registered that personality in their head and won't be able to get rid of it so easily. It's like valley girl Hatate or Unthinkable Natural Law.
tl;dr: What you think is true now, might not be true later. Forcing it on people now is not what a wiki should do.
@ Dandan: This is not TVtropes' Wild Mass Guessing "Touhou edition". Read above for why. Assumptions about the characters should be of those that are generally accepted by the rest of the fandom such as Masochist Tenshi or Frugal Reimu. Speculations and such are going to be kept off this page to keep misunderstandings and forced memes to a minimum. !8RstuPId2Y Talk Contribs 06:14, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
TvTrope? What's that? >:) That's what and :FYI User:Jigglyppuff8 that is what WE first thought. After all It's a mystery why she is looking for the kappa's arm, and why her arm is bandage. But only ZUN will tell about her. So I ain't guessing I'm curious about her intentions in the manga. Dandan550 11:54, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

Kasen as The Third of The Four Devas of The Mountain(?)[edit]

As far as I can tell, there is nothing on ZUN's blog about Kasen or the Four Devas. Removing. UTW 01:47, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Not exactly ZUN's blog, it was the magazine that started the comic series.
(External link with several references: http://bbs.thproject.org/read.php?tid=76251&keyword=%B4%C4%B8%E8%CF%C9)
Too many evidences has pointed out that Kasen is the third Deva of the Mountain. Not even Sherlock Holmes's fantastic deduction is necessary.
1. As stated on the link above, which is on the main website, 茨木, which both Kasen and the legendary oni Ibaraki(from the folktale “百鬼夜行”), share the exact same name. (Also similar example, Yuugi Hoshiguma, which shares the same name as another folktale of the Four Devas, Hoshiguma,星熊)
2. Other than sharing the same name, Ibaraki lost his/her right arm after being slashed away by Watanabe no Tsuna while Kasen Ibara's "bandaged arm dispeled when Reimu grabbed it" implicating that she either has a fake arm, or a very weak one. Even then bandaging a weak arm doesn't make much sense.
3. Kasen demanded Reimu for the "Arm of The Kappa", most likely to check if the arm was her real one for her 'fake right arm' as stated above. While in the folkfore, Ibaraki impersonated Toyohime's mother, and tricked Watanabe into giving the detached arm.
4. Ibaraki is quite well known to hide in the mountains, and it was told that Ibaraki got the arm of a celestial(hermit) as a substitute until he/she got back the arm later. In ZUN's case, Kasen is a hermit, and she lectures on "ways to live longer" which hermits or celestial usually look for.
5.Given her title the Wild and Horned Hermit, why would ZUN gave that title to Kasen? Does she have 'horns' for now? Or is it because she is 'wild' and 'horny'? Obviously horns refer to what onis usually have. Her horns "may" be under the buns, and she kept her powers a secret from everyone for now.
6.Even if denying that Kasen is an oni and could be anything else like a unicorn youkai, rhino youkai or any similar youkai with horns, the word 'shackles' was right in the description in the Wikia and also in the comic. Now, what items does ZUN associate to oni? ZUN said(or wrote) that right out of him stating that "I always think of shackles to onis."
Well, I'll keep this until ZUN confirms Kasen's identity.Lucky Charat 08:29, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
Those first four arguments, I would write off as coincidence, unintentional, or reading too much into it. It's hard to deny the last two and she may very well be a Deva of the Mountain, but your wording of such in your prior edits of the article would've led others to believe that ZUN explicitly stated she was a Deva of the Mountain instead of implicitly like right now. !8RstuPId2Y Talk Contribs 14:39, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
By the way, "the third of Four Heavenly Kings (or of Caturmahārāja) of the Mountain" is more appropriate than "third deva", isn't it? Japanese people have no language custom to call one of "Shitennou" (Four Deva Kings) a "tennou" (Deva King). So it's unnatural to call her "deva". And there's another reason to avoid it; a deva has already appeared as Nazrin's & Shou's boss, and Suika, Yuugi & Kasen aren't deva but oni... oops, the last hasn't been depicted as "oni" yet.
Anyway, what I wanna say is "deva" might not well be used as single for me, and I also expect the same interpretation as yours while she should be as now a sennin, hermit. --masuo64 Talk 15:58, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

Well, those of us who can read Kanji (Both Chinese and Japanese) found Ibara's Kanji to be very very familiar, like it was some tale we have heard before, and that brings us into The Four Heavenly Kings. There was an oni leader named 酒吞童子, and the four kings 星熊童子,茨木童子,金童子,虎熊童子。 Sometimes, 茨木童子is replaced by 钟童子 or 熊童子 depending on the different variations of the folktale, becoming the right hand of 酒吞童子 and also has a rank higher than the Four Devas.

The point is, all of us that has read 'Pandemonium' know that Ibuki Suika is obviously connected to 酒吞童子, being a leader of all onis, very addicted to alcohol( the name says it) and has very powerful strength even among onis. Hoshiguma Yuugi on the other hand, is connected to Hoshiguma the Strong, which is the strongest of the Four Devas. Now, Ibara Kasen can also be called as Ibaraki Kasen. Now, her name is compared to Ibaraki the Mysterious, which has a detached arm and had a celestial arm instead for a while. Even to kid oneself for pure coincidence, How coincidence it is when there are at least four points which just have very similar characteristics to the counterpart Ibaraki?

P.S. I read the manga, and I am even more convinced that Ibara is based on Ibaraki as Hoshiguma is based on Hoshiguma. Her right arm 'faded' when Reimu grabbed it. Which means she doesn't have an arm with real flesh. It was her right arm that is detached, and so is Ibaraki, who lost his/her(because the tale has many variations) right arm. She also trains as a hermit in a mountain, just like oni. (in the past, doesn't really apply to Gensokyo except for Suika). If all of this is coincidence, it's a coincidence too many.

On the other hand, doesn't hermit=celestial? They both have the same kanji, 仙人。 Lucky Charat 17:32, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

Seeing this wiki, "celestial" & "hermit" signifies different targets. Indeed, Japanese original words are "天人" & "仙人", so they should be classified in different categories.
In Buddist Cosmology in Kanji Culture Area, "天" is the translation of both "heaven, sky" and "gods (including kinds of devil & spirit)", whose original names in Sanskrit are respectively "dēvalōka" (देवलोक) and "dēva" (देव). The former "天" is used in the word "天人", "heaven man" or "person living in the heaven". That of the latter is used in names of Buddism gods like "毘沙門天", whose structure is: the head three letters express Japanized sound of its original name (Sanskrit "vaiśravaṇa" → Chinese "píshāmén" → Japanese "bishamon"), and the last one word shows that this god is borrowed from Indian mythology of either Hindu or classical Buddism ― he is originally an Indian god, deva... but it might be an overstep to say Vaisravana is one of 天人 in Gensoukyou, because ZUN sometimes arranges the settings as it gets interesting and cute.
On the other hand, 仙人 is a Japanized word. The Chinese counterpart is 仙, which consists of "人" (human) & "山" (mountain) in itself, and which means "human living on the mountain", i.e. "a man enpowered supernaturally after long long long hiding & training on the mountain". It's possible for him to be seen as a kind of god of Chinese Taoism.
So, the translations fits these background. "Celestial" is derived from a Latin word "caelestis" (celestial) or "caelum" (heaven, sky). And "hermit" is derived from Ancient Greek "ἐρημίτης" (erēmítēs, "person of the desert"), on extended interpretation "person training alone & hiding inland, where people never come". --masuo64 Talk 19:32, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Possibility of future issues and the matter of Kasen's 'true goal'[edit]

That part of her adjusted profile raised many eyebrows as the revealed chapters revealed nothing on it and that whoever added that must have read later ones or were pulling stuff out of thin air.

Will there be a time where later chapters can become accessible as witholding them will only encourage half-assed assumptions.--ReiKusanagi 23:03, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

1-2 are already translated by Voile and 3-4 by Danbooru. Try reading again to see for yourself, but everything in the article is accurate. The only one I haven't seen at all in some form is chapter 5. The problem is the lack of availability of the scans in Japanese, many of them not appearing until a month later or more, which is why Voile hasn't gotten to them yet. I think 4 was found, 3 is currently only available in Chinese, and as I said, I can't find 5. UTW 08:45, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
I have, and the last two before danbooru deleted them due to a 'request', and what I read really hinted at nothing about wanting to specifically shut down the connection, just stop Reimu and Co. from digging up poisonous gold and taking care of evil spirits. Chapter 5 could be interesting but without knowledge, anything said would be reaching. Saying something like "She wants to shut down the connection between humans and old hell" is saying too much at this early juncture and gives a wrong impression of Kasen and that someone's been witholding newer manga chapters to themselves. --ReiKusanagi 01:25, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
The profile could possibly be rewritten some, but it's what Kasen herself blurts out at the end of chapter 2. UTW 00:43, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion that We Should Alter the Name of this Page: from Ibara to Ibaraki[edit]

Here comes the official website of WaHH!! Seeing the page, I find these two: “仙人の茨木華扇(通称・華仙/茨華仙)” and “茨木華扇(号:茨華仙)”. It's namely “Hermit, Kasen Ibaraki (so-called Kasen or Kasen Ibara)” and “Kasen Ibaraki (art-name: Kasen Ibara)”. According to this, "Kasen Ibara" (茨華仙) is probably made for some purpose, and it's probably not the real name. So I suggest the name of this page be altered as "Kasen Ibaraki". What do you, other editors think about this idea? --masuo64 Talk 18:45, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm in favor of this. --Anatole serial 00:29, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm rather neutral seeing as the old name still leads here, but someone's going around screwing up the page changing it with just one person approving it.--ReiKusanagi 01:17, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
For your infomation, 茨華仙 is NOT the name, rather it is a nickname for her, as the words can be lit. as Ibaraka God. - KyoriAsh 01:20, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
This doesn't change anything from what we knew about her before, and thus doesn't necessitate a change to the wiki now, except as further information to be added to her written profile. Unless it is ever actually revealed in and becomes of importance to the manga, it's good as it was before. Even then there are cases elsewhere where it's not necessary or good form to change and lead off with a character's real name. Simply, as far as anyone in-universe or even to us is concerned, for the time being, her identity that she always goes by and is, is Kasen Ibara.
Also, what does the whole 動物を導く能力を持っており、龍や大鵬といった幻獣すらも自在に操る。 part say? Confirmation of her ability to talk to and control animals, it seems, according to Google Translate. I know this is what those mysterious chapter five scans were about, but I just want to know what the whole thing says before adding it.UTW 10:22, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Regarding to Ichijinsha Official Webpage, 仙人の茨木華扇(通称・華仙/茨華仙) means Hermit/Fairy/Wizard Ibaraki Kasen and shortformed as Kasen (Hermit/Fairy/Wizard Ka) or Ibarakasen (Hermit/Fairy/Wizard Ibaraka), that's it and Kasen Ibara is definetly wrong if according to this translation because it is not a name. - KyoriAsh 11:55, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

What is the source that 茨華仙 isn't a name? I know 茨歌仙 isn't a name, but 茨華仙 is a name. --masuo64 Talk 12:33, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Refer back the japanese sentence you pasted... 通称 is alias or known as or short form as, but not the real name - KyoriAsh 12:41, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
It's a name, even though not the real name. If it's a art-name, it normally has a personal part & family part, as Bashou Matsuo or Hokusai Katsushika. If it's a nickname, it's ordinary that one's name is a personal & family part. We can see is a family name and 華仙 is a personal name, for "ibara" & "ka"+"sen" are read respectively in kun-yomi & on-yomi — it is a mark of separating a word with two. On this point, 茨華仙 isn't writen as "Ibarakasen", but as "Kasen Ibara", following other character's names. In fact, most of Japanese fans call her "Kasen", "Kasen chan" or "Kasen san", no matter which they choose 華仙 or 華扇. I don't know whether it's the same in the English network, but I've assumed that is a common situation. --masuo64 Talk 13:05, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh well, it's not "Ibaraka-sen" — not "a hermit (} named Ibaraka (茨華)"! We can see the combination of the title "茨歌仙, "" (thorn on a rose) + "歌仙" (master of poem or verse). --masuo64 Talk 13:29, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

some thing you get it wrong, 茨華仙 does not have family name + given name, because it is just a nickname and it is come from 茨木華扇 and 仙人 - KyoriAsh 14:08, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Hmm... My opinion is: 通称 is a name which is used broadly by many people. Some have two parts, and some don't have. It's not weird that we separate a name as two when spelling it, because most art-names and nickname (I vaguely suspect the translation might be bad) have personal & family part, and many users call her "Kasen", not "Ibarakasen". Indeed, as you say, it's possible that "Ibarakasen" is one word, but as my native Japanese sense, there's no reason to stick in "Ibarakasen". --masuo64 Talk 14:53, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Well, I decide I won't debate this topic until new information comes. But I'm never persuaded, because our two ideas don't have some critical reason except many people are making single uses like 華仙さん. --masuo64 Talk 15:00, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
The "Family + given name" feel part is due to and due to 6 kanji word too long, shortformed as: 華仙/茨華仙, according to my understanding - KyoriAsh 15:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I feel like my understand would be bad... well, you're right, maybe... --masuo64 Talk 15:16, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

About "Hermit Ka" or "Hermit Ibaraka"[edit]

It has been stated in her "name" section that her nickname Kasen or Ibara Kasen (華仙) and (茨華仙) mean "hermit Ka/Ibaraka" as a shorthand form of "hermit Ibaraki Kasen" but I find this highly improbable. The phrase (仙人の茨木華扇) is not a title in any way, nor is it a common way to address her - it is simply generally saying, "the hermit Ibaraki Kasen," since the page was introducing her. This is reinforced by the fact that the underlined portion in that page does not extend under the phrase 仙人, indicating that 仙人の is not part of her name - it was simply saying she was a hermit.--Tosiaki 17:29, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

As of now, "仙人の茨木華扇" gets around 611 search results on Google and "茨木華扇" gets many more, clearly indicating that there is no 仙人の in her name.--Tosiaki 18:03, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Differentiating 華扇 and 華仙[edit]

I suggest that her pseudonym/title 茨華仙 (Ibarakasen) be changed to Ibaraka-Sen, or "Ka-Sen" for short, with her real given name (華扇) remaining as "Kasen". That way it's clear which one is being used, when it's impossible to tell right now. "Ka-Sen" has the bonus of sounding more exotic/mystical/Chinese, which makes sense given how it's used. Opinions? --Prime32 (talk) 16:43, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Removing abilities in infobox[edit]

Is it really necessary to have that long list in the infobox? Those aren't her "named abilities" after all, but just what she has showed to be able to do, and they are also explained in the abilties section. I'd say to just leave "guiding animals" since it's the only thing actually announced in her profile.PK (talk) 22:22, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I didn't notice the list of abilites she had in her infobox. The correct use of the Ability part in the infobox is to only have the official ability that was named by the author. We should get rid fo the list and keep the "Guiding animals" part and the other abilities can be listed in the General Information part of said character (which it's already done). --Camilo113 (talk) 00:02, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Her species is confirmed to be Oni.[edit]

Like the subject says, Kasen is OFFICIALLY revealed to be an Oni. Everything is in Chapter 32 of WaHH. At the beginning she dodges beans from Mamizou and then seemed annoyed over the "Setsubun Bean Throwing Event" (again). Then, later on, she sees a "sardine head on an holly branch" that wards Oni off and then proceed to complain that "the world becomes a difficult place to live in". Then, the next page, Reimu got donated one (sardine head...) and shake/point it up to Kasen who was scared of it and create a bad excuse over bad smell. If that wasn't enough, Mamizou, watching over the sardine head scene mentions "Doesn't seem like Reimu noticed but, no matter how you look at it, that hermit's an oni". There we go. please note that it's based on Clarste's translation. The chapter is uploaded on Wild And Horned Hermit page and dates from February 2016.

Then, I believe her occupation should be "Posing as an hermit". Then, her whole "Speculation about her species" should be totally remodeled.

Lebon14 (talk) 01:11, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

She could very well be a Vampire if we build on those cases, and Mamizou could just be wrong. As far as the info dictates we can only make assumptions until it's officialy revealed she is an Oni, which is not. --Camilo113 (talk) 02:21, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
So, the way you talk, it's like saying that Setsubun is to throw beans and make holly branches with sardine heads for everything that isn't oni (referencing how silly the vampire part is). Zun wrote the story and made Mamizou say this. Which means I take it as confirmation that she's oni. It went past asumptions of vague hints. Zun straight up told us albeit indirectly. It was Zun's way to say "there you go guys".
Does that fact affect the story? Most likely not. But what do you wait after? What does it need, for you, to make it confirmed? Also, was it canon that many youkai knew of Kasen's true identity? Mostly, you know who. To finish, it's like I'm showing you an apple and you are still dead set to believe that it's an orange. (Also dropped the caps for the title)
Lebon14 (talk) 19:44, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Cailo113, until there's an official unavailing then leave it as is. Well, unless there's a president for reasonable assumptions being added into official profiles. I genuinely don't know. Ycdtosa (talk) 20:00, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Then we just have a section addressing the hints and speculation, like with Maribel's page, for example, which we already have 'Oni suspicions'. So we just do like we have been, addressing it while neither confirming or denying anything until we get confirmation. UTW 23:31, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
I also agree with Camilo and Ycdtosa. Yes, it's a fairly strong indication. However, Kasen could also have other reasons for hating that stuff. I also think saying this world has become hard to live in is only in regards to being harassed. So, all told, it could just be a red herring, designed to throw us (and Mamizou) off. What would it take to acknowledge she's an oni? If ZUN or Kasen affirmed it. Simple. But a third party like Mamizou and her suspicions just isn't enough. As far as she goes, this is only confirmation that she has her doubts, not that they're true. UTW 23:31, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
You're looking at this slightly the wrong way, I think. ZUN's way of "telling" us she's an oni has been the combination of all hints, slight and obvious, that he's written so far. The reader is supposed to know, or at least be very confident of, Kasen being an oni. Moreover, a number of the characters in-universe are confident she's an oni, and that number will only grow. However, at no point has any character so far said so without the guise of speculation. Even Yukari, who undoubtedly knows what Kasen is, or Komachi who very likely does, has never explicitly stated she's an oni as fact. ZUN wants to drag the reader along like this and it would be overstepping to go ahead and say "she has officially been stated to be an oni"; to say "yeah she's clearly an oni" is different. It's entirely possible that he never will "reveal".
Also Camilo's point about vampires is that they are similarly affected by Setsubun, which is an ongoing joke on ZUN's part. Nobody is actually saying that Kasen isn't an oni, so your comment on apples and oranges is... apples and oranges. That much is incredibly obvious, up to the exception of a massive gotcha that I don't think will happen. But the point of listing her species isn't to follow what the reader is convinced of, it's to follow what's been stated as fact.
Another major example of this would be Eirin's identity as Omoikane (although her wiki page is lacking in this area). It's made really really obvious she is, but there has never been anything outright stating she is Omoikane, so all we can say as a wiki is "here's all the evidence that she's Omoikane" and leave it at that. --Drake Irving (talk) 04:19, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

She IS an oni[edit]

At the end of Chapter 21, pages 25-26, after Suika is disappointed with people not throwing beans at her, Kasen yells from behind the corner to drive her out with snowballs, which starts bean throwing but with snowballs, which makes Suika happy once again. Then, at the last page, the box shows Kasen behind the corner smiling to herself, and it says "It takes an oni to know an oni" This isn't a hint, it's not something that can be viewed as something else, it literally says that in the words. No one else can fill the posiotion as the other Oni
Also Kasen isn't a vampire because she goes out in the sun all the time without protection
Please change from suspected to actual Oni thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goldilox (talkcontribs) 12:29 (UTC), 1 November 2018‎

And now, as of April 17 2019, she's a full fledged oni thanks to Chapter 50 of WaHH. There's no if or "But Zun..." anymore. Her new title straight up has "Oni" in it. Her species should say "Oni (formerly Oni pretending to be Hermit)" now and the backstory should be rewitten with the info. Also 3rd Diva. Lebon14 (talk) 22:37, 17 April 2019 (UTC)