Difference between revisions of "Talk:Maribel Hearn"

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Random question. Anyone else heard the English lyrics of Bad Apple? Not the ones on the wiki, these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG-Fs7de_9o  People have theories on this one. Some say it's Kaguya and her immortality. I think it's MARIBEL singing. She seems to be, as this section says, unable to tell the dream world from the real world. She has to choose. The song sums it up perfectly, i think. What about you? --[[User:CybeastID|CybeastID]] ([[User talk:CybeastID|talk]]) 11:36, 23 January 2013 (EST)
Random question. Anyone else heard the English lyrics of Bad Apple? Not the ones on the wiki, these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG-Fs7de_9o  People have theories on this one. Some say it's Kaguya and her immortality. I think it's MARIBEL singing. She seems to be, as this section says, unable to tell the dream world from the real world. She has to choose. The song sums it up perfectly, i think. What about you? --[[User:CybeastID|CybeastID]] ([[User talk:CybeastID|talk]]) 11:36, 23 January 2013 (EST)
== Relative Psychology ==
This caught my eye the other day; I fear it may be a mistranslation. If you ask the Internet about 相対性 in Japanese, you get back tons of Einstein, right at the top. This makes it seem likely that it's a reference to 相対性理論, the famous theory of relativity. The adjective used to describe effects described by that theory is ''relativistic'', so if I'm correct ''relativistic psychology'' would be a better translation. This also fits well with the "near future" setting where we've finally conquered GUT physics. I'm not sure how often people look at these pages, so if there are no serious objections by the end of March or so I'd like to go change all references to "relative psychology" to "relativistic psychology" (there seem to be two: those in the translation of CoSD, and those on this page). --[[User:T. Solamarle|T. Solamarle]] ([[User talk:T. Solamarle|talk]]) 11:10, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 11:10, 22 February 2014

Maribel's Power[edit]

Where is it stated that Maribel can see Gensokyo's boundary, specifically? Is this from an official profile? In the stories, she states in her narrative that she can see boundaries, and she is clearly able to see both the boundary to the Netherworld as well as the boundary to the Moon, but no where in any of the stories is she ever actually stated to see Gensokyo's boundary. The closest thing she ever comes to seeing Gensokyo's physical location (IE, not in a dream) is when Renko at the end of Ghostly Field Club proposes going to the Hakurei Shrine, but the story ends on that note without ever detailing their trip there.

In Changeability of Strange Dream, she clearly is in Gensokyo, but again, no where is it ever stated that she can see Gensokyo's boundary. In fact, that story actually focuses on her wondering if Gensokyo is real at all, and never mentions if she can see any boundary of it (which makes sense. If she could actually see Gensokyo's boundary, she probably wouldn't be questioning whether it's real or not, because a boundary is what confirms something's actual existance).

Of note also is that she doesn't even know Gensokyo's name. No where is the word "Gensokyo" ever mentioned in any of Maribel's stories.

I've changed her power to "Ability to see every boundary all over the world". It comes from this quote in Changeability of Strange Dream:

"I have the ability to see every boundary all over the world, in other words, a border."

If "Able to "see" Gensokyo's boundaries." is her actual ability word from word from an official profile somewhere, feel free to change it back.

--TiamatRoar 9:41 AM September 14, 2010 (UTC)

Maribel & Renko's Location[edit]

The story in Retrospective 53 minutes leads me to think that Maribel and Renko live in Kyoto, with all the comparisons of Tokyo and Kyoto. --Wererat42 13:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Some untranslated information on Maribel, courtesy this page.

メリー      結界の境目が見える

JadeCicada 23:35, 6 Oct 2005 (PDT)


Who came up with "Maribel" as the spelling of マエリベリー "MAERIBERII"? There's no silent "i" in "ri" (it would be "ru"), and the "i" sound is even extended. There's no way to get "bel" from "BERII", it makes no sense. "Maryberry" would fit with the official katakana. I'm not the first to think of it, either. [1] [2]

I also don't see how you get "Han" from ハーン "HAAN". Wouldn't that be written ハン "HAN"? I'd go with "Hearn", it fits better (extended "a" is often used for the "er" sound) and the Hearn/Yakumo connection is too good to be a coincidence. Kapow0 05:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with Hearn. No idea what to think about マエリベリー yet, other than "Maribel" doesn't really fit (though I do like the name). Nobody seems to have good concrete ideas - even the motoneta wiki won't say anything definitive. Maryberry would be more convincing if it were マエリベリー - one of the pages you linked points that out. --T. Solamarle 12:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there any further consensus on this? —Kimiko 21:41, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

If Merryberry is truly the right way to spell it, than the wiki page should be changed to reflect it. Inb4 "It's too late and too accepted now to change it". That argument is bullshit. !8RstuPId2Y 05:07, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
I think it's more that nobody seems to care about the article all that much ... —Kimiko 05:27, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

I propose we change the name to Maribel Hearn instead of Han once and for all. ZUN bringing up Lafcadio in response to being asked about Maribel and Yukari really REALLY implies that was his intention that the name be Hearn, doesn't it? TiamatRoar 14:52, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I am in favour of this. _dk 11:26, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm in favour of this as well. Mizutori 12:49, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
I think this is one of the few cases where switching, despite still not having a romanized name, is justified. BTW TiamatRoar, where was this? - Kiefmaster99 17:13, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Truthfully, I'm not the one who found it or made the edit in this wiki to Maribel's page about it (in the Concept Name section). However, according to the editor who added it (IE, according to the edit), it's the toho-motoneta wiki that says ZUN gave that response in a "Saturday Programming Event". Does this mean we need to track down a youtube of it or something to confirm it? I wonder if the toho-motoneta wiki has a link to it or anything that is useable as a confirmation TiamatRoar 22:10, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
I was the one who added it. The event was a Saturday programming event that took place in Toukai High School, and I just found the transcript here. Heck, I should translate the thing. (Though ZUN's answer to the Maribel question was only half a sentence long.) _dk 06:47, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Oh wow, thank you very VERY much for finding that. I had been hoping there'd be some confirmation from ZUN himself regarding the Lafcadio thing for such a long time now. A translation of it, even if it's just half a sentence, would be wonderful! After that, um... I'll figure out how to move/change the page to Hearn instead of Han if no one else does it. /wiki n00b TiamatRoar 16:29, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Done. (FYI, 'Down' Icon -> Move). - Kiefmaster99 14:39, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I have returned with that translation I promised. _dk 11:24, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Well, that makes the name extremely clear, then. (it also makes the relationship extremely clear, too, IMHO, since it shows that ZUN intended Maribel and Yukari's link to be directly analogous to Lafcadio Hearn, as opposed to just a name reference. I imagine it's still not direct enough to officialize that, though) TiamatRoar 14:01, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

ZUN was asked at AWA 2013 what the official romanization of Maribel's name was (just her first name, I think), and replied "I don't really know." http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15524.120.html ...putting this here in this talk page since I'm not sure a forum post counts as a valid source. TiamatRoar (talk) 04:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I wrote the note that asked him about that. I suspect the "deeper meaning" to that is that there's no established romanization for her name and what it is may not really matter, but who knows? --T. Solamarle (talk) 10:49, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Maribel related to Yukari in fandom[edit]

Due to the shear size of info all on Yukari = Maribel in the fandom section, should it have its own section? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 23:51, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

The new Theories section will cover this. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 22:54, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Removing the chart[edit]

I'm just looking at the chart, and this appears to have come from a pure fanmade source made by one person who's speculating. Various notes such as "Renko and Maribel combined and became Yukari faction (fusion faction)" just doesn't make sense in any way. It kinda goes off topic cause it's including Renko for no apparent reason. I like to suggest upon removing this. The main aim was to only include official sources, not ones that are fandom that no one has heard about. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 22:53, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

  • It does appear to have some things that are very... er... off. Sticking to the least confrontational example (since I do not want to start an argument about which speculations are more valid), the speculation that "ZUN forgot about the relationship" seems blatantly... er.... impossible, given that the lecture where he answered the question about Maribel's relationship to Yukari took place only a few months ago ^^;;; That makes it pretty clear that whatever the relationship (or symbollism or whatever you personally believe it to be) is, ZUN has not forgotten about it. TiamatRoar 22:56, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I do believe that ZUN hasn't forgotten about this cause it appears to have a big part of Gensokyo in general. Also, unrelated, I've just started on the Theories section in my Sandbox. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 23:09, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I have a different suggestion. I would suggest that actually, the fandom section for this article would come earlier, right after "story," which would explain the main aspects as she appears in fandom (not in the bullet-point fashion they usually are). Miscellaneous trivia and fandom would come afterwards. The chart is a compilation of all the various opinions that have come up at various times in the discussions, which is why it is relevant to all the various theories, so the "is there a relation to Yukari?" section can go under the fandom section. As in:

1 Concept
1.1 Name
1.2 Ability
1.3 Appearance
2 Story
2.1 Relationships
3 Merry in derivative works
3.1 Is there a relation to Yukari?
3.2 A little more concretely
4 Additional Information
4.1 Trivia
4.2 Fandom trivia
5 Official Sources
6 References

Something like that.--Tosiaki 00:16, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The reason why I say this is because unlike the case for Sakuya, her relation to Yukari is something much more tied to her depiction in derivative works.--Tosiaki 00:43, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Or we can place this in the carefully crafted page. You may give mention about her supposed connection to Yukari but everything else we are not sure about goes in that page (this goes for all pages.) This keeps things stragight and still allow the stuff to be on the page! :3 ♥★♦ 01:19, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, I do think that certain things right now in the "fandom" section of her page right now could be moved over there (since right now, there are some facts that are not exactly significant for the character that are in that section), but since how her relation with Yukari is a major part of how she is considered within "fandom," perhaps it might be appropriate for "fandom" to be its own section for this character, and the less significant stuff (i. e. much of what is in "fandom" as of right now) could be moved to contemplations.--Tosiaki 01:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I know, just leave the really crazy stuff in the Contemplations page (if you wanna specifics, just ask) The purpose of the Contemplation page is not to replace the Fandom or Trivia but merely as a disambiguation page for the surmounting amount of info that goes into those pages. Fandom is like a summary while the extrapolation lies within the Contemplations page (and when you place, please name the appropriate link title for them.) Also, I am going to update my standardized pages to help fix some misunderstandings. ♥★♦ 01:43, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

In any case, the purpose of the chart is to show all the various opinions out there (and the chart is something that resulted after more than 27000 posts about Maribel and Renko), unlike the previous version of the page which might have led people to think that everyone thinks that Maribel went into the past Gensokyo and became Yukari, but not to explain the opinions in detail (since that would go in Contemplations). Perhaps there still may be a better format for listing the various opinions, though.--Tosiaki


  • "Parent and child" just doesn't make sence as there isn't any slight prove of this and is unpopular, so that's out
  • for "ZUN himself will forgot this fact", it's been proven that he hasn't, so that's out
  • "ZUN's drawings are hard to tell apart", what???
  • "Renko and Maribel combined and became Yukari", as stated above, doesn't make sence AT ALL.

Not all speculative opinions are needed, so it definitely needs removing. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 02:42, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure where you are looking, but none of those theories are particularly unpopular after having looked through a few things. I might have worded some of these badly, so I will have to double-check.--Tosiaki 02:54, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Although, I guess that the case for some of them could be removed. I will have to double check to see that it really is not there, though. But, as this list actually has been cited elsewhere, I do think that it is probably mostly accurate.--Tosiaki 02:59, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I didn't want to go into discussing which speculations were more valid. However, truthfully, I put the "Maribel went into the past to become Yukari" theory in there and left out the other opinions because it was the only one that really had any sort of actual evidence whatsoever. We KNOW that Maribel can travel through time (her memo in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense is irrefutable proof of that). We KNOW that time travel via spiriting away is actually possible (stated by Toyohime in Cage in Lunatic Runagate). We KNOW that Yukari Yakumo is not Yukari's original name (or at least, have two different characters implying as such). We KNOW that ZUN's answer to the relationship was "Lafcadio Hearn." And we at least have a comment stating that Maribel's power appears to be evolving from the ability to see borders into the ability to manipulate them. Thus, the concept of time travel (confirmed to actually be possible with the character in question), Maribel's powers evolving into the same powers that Yukari has (unconfirmed but at least brought up by a character as a possibility), and Yukari's name not being her original name (nearly, but not quite, confirmed), have all been brought up in official sources. The "Maribel went back in time to become Yukari" speculation is just the most simple direct way of putting all three of those things together. It also ties to the Lafcadio Hearn analogy in the most simple direct manner.
"Renko and Maribel's daughter" has nothing to do with Maribel's power evolving (directly, at least. You could go into arguing her offspring inheriting her ability to do it, but that's indirect), has nothing to do with Maribel's time travelling, has nothing to do with any analogy of Koizumi Yakumo and Lafcadio Hearn, and has nothing to do with... well, biological science honestly since they're both girls. To put it up there would be to put up speculation that, while never contradicted and proven false, also has absolutely nothing indicating it could be true, either.
A fusion between two people to become a youkai has never been stated in any official work even as a speculation by a character. To have that speculation on the page would be to have a speculation behind a concept that we have no idea even exists. We KNOW the concept of time travelling exists in the Touhou universe. We do NOT know if the concept of fusing together does.
"ZUN's drawings are hard to tell apart" isn't even an actual theory so much as an argument against other theories (IE, if there were no other theories to argue against, "ZUN's drawings can't be told apart" is a meaningless statement, which means it can't stand on its own as an actual theory).
"ZUN forgot" is outright wrong (he commented on the relationship only a few months ago!).
"It's just ZUN's mislead" is outright wrong too, unless ZUN is being a jerk. Otherwise, ZUN would have answered the question with "They have nothing to do with each other" rather than the one he gave. At the very least, even if you were to put the most possible "Anti-Yukari is Maribel" spin conceivable on ZUN's statements, you'd STILL end up with "Well, at the very least, there is certainly a purposeful symbollism between Yukari and Maribel".
Thus I put up the "Travelled back in time and became Yukari" theory is because it's the only one where anything relating to it in an official work is even brought up.
Well, I also left in the "Maribel is dreaming as Yukari" theory because that too is brought up. However, it is contradicted by the fact that Maribel is clearly NOT Yukari while she is dreaming in Changeability of Strange Dream", so I put that there, too. I stuck to those two speculations because they were the only ones which had any actual backing from official sources. All other speculations I found were never brought up in any official source anywhere, even as a speculative concept. In my opinion, this is along the same reasoning why "Sakuya is a vampire hunter" should get a mention on Sakuya's page (it is at least brought up in an official source as a speculation. Ditto for her being a Lunarian), but "Sakuya is a time-travelling power ranger" should not (yea, we know Sakuya can reverse time, but she has never travelled through it, unlike Maribel who's been confirmed to have done so). ~ TiamatRoar 03:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I am not sure if you read my earlier comments, but I suggested that rather than having a "theories" section, it should instead be a fandom section that goes before the trivia section.--Tosiaki 03:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
And by the way, you shouldn't assume that everyone else shares your point of view on this, since there are a variety of opinions on this. There are many, in fact, who think "Maribel≠Yukari." The article itself should not be a place to push a POV.--Tosiaki 03:43, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
It isn't about pushing a POV so much as stating the one where there's actual evidence from official sources. There is no evidence whatsoever regarding the whole daughter thing or fusion thing, even if only brought up as a speculation by a character in an official source. If you'd like, I can remove the statement/speculation, "Maribel time travelled to the past to become Yukari" entirely and ONLY list anything remotely relevent to the issue that's ever come up in an official source. Honestly, the end result will probably be the same, because listing everything that could have anything whatsoever to do with Maribel and Yukari would basically boil down to "Maribel is confirmed to be able to time travel. Renko has speculated her power is evolving into the power to manipulate boundaries. Rinnosuke believes Yukari Yakumo is not be Yukari's original name. The Maribel dreaming in Changeability of Strange Dream is clearly Maribel, not Yukari. When asked what the relationship was, ZUN said "Lafcadio Hearn". Lafcadio Hearn changed his name to Koizumi Yakumo." After all that (which contains NO fan speculation whatsoever) is listed on Maribel's page, I wouldn't even have to say "Maribel time-travelled to the past to become Yukari" because that's the only speculation which incorporates all of them (and if a person chooses not to incorporate all of those facts, that's fine, too.)
So how about it? I can remove ALL speculation from Maribel's page and simply say "Some people believe Maribel is related to Yukari. These are all the known statements in official sources that could be relevant to the case" and leave it at that (with referencing, of course). Anyone who finds any other statements that could have anything to do with Maribel and Yukari would be free to add them, of course. We could leave out ALL speculation and stick only to anything in an official source that could have possible relevance, without saying what that relevance would be. ~ TiamatRoar 04:06, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Er, I'm serious and not being sarcastic by the way. If you really do want me to, I can remove all speculation and just list out any and all official statements that could be possibly relevant to the case, with the disclaimer that if anyone finds anything else in an official source that might pertain to it, they too can add it. TiamatRoar 04:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I am not sure if you read my previous comment or not, but as I said earlier, I think that it would be best to turn it into a "fandom" section that goes above the "trivia" section. As there are various theories, it should say as much, that many people think differently.--Tosiaki 04:17, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I took a little offense to the statement that I was assuming everyone shared my point of view on this. Alright, I think I see what you mean. Let me take care of it then. TiamatRoar 04:20, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, now that I turned it into a "fandom" section, I think that various other things in the "trivia" section as well as what is now "Misc. fandom" could be move elsewhere, further up into concept or story. Of course, in the sandbox, that is what you have begun to do.--Tosiaki 04:57, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I do want to note, however, that I do not exactly think that it would be best to include stuff about the spell cards, because it is somewhat too much interpretation. Since many of the spell cards relate to physics, one might say that it is stuff much more related to Renko than Maribel, just to give an example.--Tosiaki 06:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm listing every official fact that is relevant to any of the theories in the chart. While relevant to any Renko fusion or daughter theories, the spell cards aren't really an official FACT, so they'll stay in the fandom section. Or maybe just get moved to contemplations. TiamatRoar 06:19, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
After all, ZUN has already confirmed there's SOMETHING regarding Maribel and Yukari. There isn't even any need to include the spell cards after he's done that, but it could still be an interesting curiosity which is why it might still have a place in the fandom or trivia sections. TiamatRoar 06:24, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, I would support the following changes:

Move to contemplations:
  • The comments about the spell cards
  • The two bullet points after "At the end of Magical Astronomy...", namely, "Changeability of Strange Dream ended with..." and "Yet another possibility is that..." both to contemplations
Move to story:
  • The "At the end of Magical Astronomy..." itself

What would you say about this?--Tosiaki 06:27, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, I do think that there may not be a need for the chart itself. However, I do think that it is important for this page to say something like what the chart is saying right now, regarding the various opinions that are out there.--Tosiaki 13:33, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I've removed the chart and moved your suggested contemplations to the equivalent of a footnote (and also removed speculative statements from them while retaining what is confirmed from official sources). Hopefully this should cover all the most popular speculations without being too speculatory. Of course, anyone who finds any other statements that could be relevant to the issue is free to add them, although I think it's best to refrain from saying HOW they could be relevant to the issue if that is up to interpretation, and instead leave it up to the reader what any specific relevance could possibly be. In this way, the wiki is not speculating in and of itself, but instead giving all the possible information that the reader might be interested in regarding the issue while letting the reader speculate what it could mean on his or her own. TiamatRoar 16:14, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I have yet to find a day where everything about Touhou is explained. So upon curiosity I discovered something interesting Yukari is stating in Perfect Cherry Blossom. In her scenarios she is known as The one behind the spiriting-away, and reveals that her hobby is causing noctambulism. Although, it just a speculation that related to Maribel, she is also the only known Touhou character to be able to "sleepwalk". Following this reason, it would seems that Yukari plays with her, as a toy instead of them being in any other relation. Also I'm posting this thought here, since I'm asking if this makes sense for the article. Berzul (talk) 02:53, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not really sure I'd categorize Maribel's dreaming (and/or obtaining objects or being affected by events in her dreams) as sleepwalking, myself. Er, unless there's a case where she's explicitly stated/shown to be sleep walking that I missed or something. TiamatRoar (talk) 06:31, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't either, the point being sleepwalking = Affecting people in their dreams. Whenever it's related to a physical condition doesn't really matter. Furthermore, it's said by Akyuu? or someone else that her ability is "...not limited to physical space, but also applies to pictures, others' dreams, and even stories". So in other words it's possible for her to affect Marry, and whatever she experiences subjectively is another story. Berzul (talk) 17:46, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Is that what noctambulism is? I thought noctambulism was just the physical aspect of sleep walking. If noctambulism really is about dreams and not just about the physical condition of sleep walking, we could add it, I guess. Regardless, certainly Akyuu's commentary about dreams could be added if that's how people feel (probably to the abilities part of that section). However, in regards to the conclusion drawn from that (that Maribel's relationship to Yukari is "Yukari is toying with Maribel"), I think it's best to avoid putting any potential conclusions on the page after that last fiasco. When I rewrote Maribel's page, I did it with the intention of showcasing all possible evidences towards possible relations but without saying any final conclusions that could be drawn from that evidence (basically slapping everything that could reasonably be relevant to the relationship but leaving the final conclusion up to the reader to determine for him/herself). As an aside, although we agreed (if I recall correctly?) to keep final speculation conclusions off of the main page, we are allowed to talk about it here. So I'll go out and state my opinion that Akyuu's statement about Yukari's ability to affect dreams isn't meant to show that Yukari is toying with Maribel's dreams, but instead further evidence that Maribel and Yukari are the same person/being. In Trojan Green Asteroid, Maribel in my opinion is clearly using that ability as Akyuu described it, as Maribel can now actively dream into worlds as she wishes and even taking Renko with her. IE, Maribel now has the same power as Yukari to manipulate dreams, because she is/becomes Yukari. The idea of Yukari toying with Maribel was a possibility back when the only canon dream had Maribel in Gensokyo involuntarily, but in my opinion doesn't hold up well with Trojan Green Asteroid where Maribel, far as I can tell, is controlling her dream/border ability of her own free will. Of course, those are just my own personal conclusions (which again IMHO shouldn't be going on the actual page lest things explode again). TiamatRoar (talk) 18:15, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
First I will state that there is no canon answer, hence it is not important to prove which is the truth, though it really helps to have some sort of evidence and logic behind them. Putting them on the same scale would allow people to decide on their own. Options is what I asked here in the first place, hence that sort of relation is another "possibility", not conclusion. For example, I'm not stating that her "ability to see through gaps" is due any relations with Yukari, just that she ends up somewhere in her dreams due Yukari's influence. That also doesn't imply that's the only way of travelling, since It also might be possible for Marry to "find a way to the other side of the boundary". Both can coexist, so which is the conclusion? I'm not the one to judge but to give an idea. The other part, using the word "toy" is purely based on Yukari calling "...manipulating the border between asleep and awake." a hobby. I think she does that because to have fun herself, though It's not necessary stated to be true. Berzul (talk) 19:35, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
What I meant when I said "Potential conclusion" was possibilities. Possible conclusion, possibilities, potential conclusions... all of these are the same thing in context, I think. Instead of any possibilities, the Yukari Maribel relationship section is attempting to stick to just indisputable facts. Things like "Renko wonders if her power is growing into that to change boundaries" is an indisputable fact (as it is explicit that Renko actually said that), whereas "Maribel grew up to become Yukari, as evidenced by how Renko basically suspecting her power grew up to become the same as Yukari's" is instead a possibility derived from that statement (IE, a disputable speculation). Likewise, things like "Yukari says her hobby is noctambulism" and "Akyuu says that Yukari can manipulate dreams" are indisputable facts (and thus okay to list on the page), but saying "Yukari may be manipulating Maribel's dream, because her hobby is noctambulism and Akyuu says Yukari can manipulate dreams" is a possibility derived from that. The page is probably best off just saying the facts, and then letting the readers create any possibilities on their own. The last time someone tried to list all the possibilities one could derive from those facts (...and several that... er, well, couldn't, but eh), it caused.... issues, to say the least. TiamatRoar (talk) 19:48, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

About "Maribel"[edit]

Her name was discussed earlier, and it was decided to change "Han" to "Hearn." However. "Maribel" still seems terrible. It is meaningless: whatever meaning "Maribel" has certainly has nothing to do with her as a character.

What I am suggesting is "Maeriberry." First of all, it is hard to pronounce quickly. This is intentional - that is why she is always called "Merry" rather than her full name. Second of all, it is easy to think of it as a corruption of "Mulberry." "Maribel" and "Mulberry" don't quite seem alike, but "Maeriberry" is closer. The reason why Mulberry has anything to do with this is as explained in the "Name" section of her page - since her last name has something related to Yukari, the meaning of her first name, as something having to do with Mulberries which become purple (i. e. Yukari) on ripening is probably the best explanation so far. Also, ベリー is indeed probably "berry" or something like that, and there is definitely some pronunciation like "ae" in it - not quite evident in "Maribel."

In any case, "Maribel" is terrible and I think it has to go.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?--Tosiaki 18:31, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

If nobody makes a comment here, I myself will move it sometime later.--Tosiaki 02:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Made a redirect to it, but since it's already an alt spelling, I see no reason to change it.
It's a "Tomato Tamato" argument, and we pick Tomato;er I mean Maribel.

♥★♦ 03:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I think you might have misunderstood what I was attempting to say, but to make my point a little more clearly, I think that "Maribel" is terrible and needs to go. Several others have also stated this before as well.--Tosiaki 03:07, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Also, "Maribel" is not the "Tomato" of the "Tomato Tamato" - it is the "Tamato" (as has been pointed out previously by many others).--Tosiaki 03:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Consensus was with Hearn, not Maribel.
And it for the first name, "Merryberry/Maryberry" was what the others above agreed to...
Also, "terrible"?
Hate to say this, but "Maeriberry" looks downright silly to me :p

♥★♦ 03:17, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Consensus was also with the idea that "Maribel is terrible" as well. Merryberry/Maryberry is better than Maribel in any case. However, one important point is that Renko cannot pronounce it that well. That is why a stranger version, Maeriberry, might fight better. If even that doesn't fit, then maybe something else might be better, but that does not mean we should keep "Maribel."--Tosiaki 03:31, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Not this naming issue again... Anyways, I wouldn't call the name "terrible" just because it has nothing to do with her character - maybe "unfitting" compared to some other name out there but not "terrible". As for Maeriberry, that's how the Korean fanbase calls her: I cannot find a single search result under the name Maribel, so I guess you've a point about Maeriberry. I don't have any problem with either names (Maribel or Maeriberry) but before we make a decision I want to hear more from other people about this issue. (speaking of which, I think I've found some official material that also calls Luna Child by Luna instead of Lunar, but that's not important here) --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 03:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Hm, two things I wanted to say here, I guess.

  • "Maribel is terrible and needs to go." I think I said this a few sections ago, but I agree. There's really no way you can reasonably claim it's a good romanization of マエリベリー, and source fidelity is (obviously??) the biggest concern in translation.
  • "Whatever name variation looks silly!" I've started to think that's kind of the point, really. The only useful note we have on Merry's full name is that it's awkward and hard for Japanese people to pronounce. So, coming up with a representation that's easier on whoever's writing it is, well, absolutely backwards. Besides, choosing something that looks good above something that's a more accurate rendition is usually a bad choice. Next people are going to be calling Renko and Merry cousins or something.

Anyway, clearly we need to use a-e ligature (æ) because it's more ridiculous (half-serious statement). I've started using Mælysberry myself, but there's no serious argument in its favore above any other similar variation. (Maelys is a Breton name, anyway, not Irish.) I would not be against Maeriberry; it's clearly much more accurate than Maribel (no offense to 2005-era Touhouwiki editors). Amusingly enough, there is an instagram account named maelysberry which is some French lady. ...ahh, I want to translate more fluffy renmerry stories now --T. Solamarle (talk) 10:49, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Trojan Green Asteroid[edit]

For now, Maribel's CD appearance in Trojan Green Asteroid is as (CD Illustration). If a story comes with the CD where Maribel is the main character, then it should be changed to her appearing as: (Cover, Main Character). But for now we don't seem to know, so... --MistPower101 03:36, 15 April 2012 (PST)


http://en.touhouwiki.net/images/e/e2/Pronunciation_RenkoUsami.ogg Where did Maribel's Pronunciation went?

Hey found it http://en.touhouwiki.net/images/f/f4/Pronunciation_MaribelHearn.ogg But the question is, do we keep it or the person wants to rerecording it in some way? Berzul (talk) 19:22, 19 December 2012 (EST)

Gensokyo's Reality Section[edit]

Random question. Anyone else heard the English lyrics of Bad Apple? Not the ones on the wiki, these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG-Fs7de_9o People have theories on this one. Some say it's Kaguya and her immortality. I think it's MARIBEL singing. She seems to be, as this section says, unable to tell the dream world from the real world. She has to choose. The song sums it up perfectly, i think. What about you? --CybeastID (talk) 11:36, 23 January 2013 (EST)

Relative Psychology[edit]

This caught my eye the other day; I fear it may be a mistranslation. If you ask the Internet about 相対性 in Japanese, you get back tons of Einstein, right at the top. This makes it seem likely that it's a reference to 相対性理論, the famous theory of relativity. The adjective used to describe effects described by that theory is relativistic, so if I'm correct relativistic psychology would be a better translation. This also fits well with the "near future" setting where we've finally conquered GUT physics. I'm not sure how often people look at these pages, so if there are no serious objections by the end of March or so I'd like to go change all references to "relative psychology" to "relativistic psychology" (there seem to be two: those in the translation of CoSD, and those on this page). --T. Solamarle (talk) 11:10, 22 February 2014 (UTC)