• Welcome to Touhou Wiki!
  • Registering is temporarily disabled. Check in our Discord server to request an account and for assistance of any kind.

Talk:Perfect Cherry Blossom/Music

From Touhou Wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Music comment translation problem

Note: We need 62 characters per line, and 5 lines per section.

Should explanations of literary references and such in song titles be put on Music pages (like this one) instead of on the script translation pages? Maybe put them in both places?

Moving song title explanations to this page will unclutter the script translation pages a bit as well as lessen the need to edit multiple pages whenever a title's translation is updated, or more information about it is discovered.

--Deciare 12:05, 4 Jun 2005 (PDT)

What tone are these comments written? Jokingly? Mockingly? Is it serious at any point? Are there any native English speakers on this board who are even close to fluent? An editor of a translation who can't understand the language is kind of a joke, unfortunately. J5983 22:04, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Should these comments be edited more extensively, at the risk of losing original meaning, or be left as they are in a more literal state? Can they be rewritten into a more coherent form? -Breathstealer 08:40, 13 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Zun's comments' comment

ZUN's comments have usually been in a somewhat joking manner from the previous interviews. I think that given our limited resources and abilities, editing it down to a form that reads well is sufficient until someone comes along with a high level of proficiency with both Japanese and English.

Sometimes ZUN even ends off his blurb with a (*laughs). I've added back one of them but there simply isn't enough room to put everything in. I suppose we'll just have to make sure the text reads in a jovial manner. --ChronoReverse 16:27, 16 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Manual text

Where do you think a good place for the manual text describing the music tracks should go? —Preceding unsigned comment added by J5983 (talkcontribs) 08:40, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Stage 3 Theme

Something that bothered me for some time now:
The Doll Maker of Bucuresti - shouldn't that been Bucharest? It's written in katakana as ブクレシュチ, ZUN wrote it as ブクレシュティ, which would actually make more sense, since ティ is used to write a "ti"-sound from western languages, while チ is a "chi". I don't change it right away, since it's not really the "true" way of writing it in katakana, but one that sounds more reasonable.
I'm actually surprised, that nobody has asked this so far. - Arget 00:43, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I think Bucureşti or Bucuresti is better because Japanese normally say it as ブカレスト (bukaresuto), which might be loaned from German word "Bukarest". Normally Japanese call it Bukarest, not Bucureşti, but ZUN use the latter. So why don't we follow the original Romanian name? And about the topic of ブクレシュチ, you would be right. The present Japanese Romanization would be, frankly speaking, out of date. So they can't write down to distinguish the two sound in their proper writing system. Some Japanese are worring about this problem, then remake the system to write チ & ティ as ti & t'i. Of course it's not proper now...


There might be a translation inconsistency between the new title of this song and one of Yuyuko's spell cards.

Spell Card: 桜符「完全なる墨染の桜 -封印-」
Cherry Blossom Sign "Perfect Cherry Blossom of Sumizome -Seal-"
(Sumizome: name of the spirit in a cherry tree in the Japanese play, "Seki no To")

Song Title: 幽雅に咲かせ、墨染の桜 ~ Border of Life (Yuuga ni sakase, Sumizome no sakura ~ Border of Life,
lit. "Bloom Nobly, Ink-black Cherry Blossoms ~ Border of Life"

I would be tempted to change "Sumizome" to "Ink-Black" in the spell card name, but there's a TL note. Your thoughts? Kiefmaster99 13:20, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Literal translations of place/person names are retarded. It'd be like translating it as "source of the sun" instead of "Japan".
Additionally, it's far too late to change it - Bloom Nobly, Cherry Blossoms of Sumizome ~ Border of Life is the popular translation by now.
!8RstuPId2Y 22:12, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, just checked out that thread. When the song TL was changed to "Ink-black", I have a feeling that whoever changed it did not regard the TL note, probably because it only existed on the Spell Card page. When I noticed it was changed to "Ink-Black", I searched for other instances of Sumizome (in particular Yuyuko's penultimate SC) and found reasoning for its use. Thus, I will be reverting "Ink-Black" to "Sumizome" with the TL note unless anyone objects here.
With regards to your second argument though, I'm just going to quote T. Solamarle from the MoF music talk page
More correct translations should be preferred over incorrect "established" names.
With regards to putting TL notes on the Music Page, I argue it helps for understanding, plus its been done for references that only exist in the music title. - Kiefmaster99 01:49, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

I would like to defend my original edit and challenge the current translation note. While it is true that there is a character named Sumizome in the play "Seki No To", I don't think this is what ZUN was going for when naming this song. My main piece of evidence is the page for all variants of the spellcard "Cherry Blossom Sign 'Perfect Cherry Blossom of Sumizome'" on the Japanese Touhou Wiki. There it mentions a legend regarding someone named Kamutsuke no Mineo, who upon the death of his friend wrote the following poem: "Oh, cherry blossoms in the fields of Fukukusa: if you have a heart, bloom ink-black just for this year" (this is a rough translation. I'm not a poet; I was just going for the meaning). The legend goes on to say that after he finished writing the poem, the cherry blossoms near where his friend was buried all bloomed ink-black. While the article does say that the variety of cherry blossom sumizomezakura and the name of an area in Kyoto, Sumizome, come from this legend, I still think that the title of the song and spell card should have "ink-black" instead of "Sumizome". First of all, there's a connection between the poem and the title name in that they are both requesting cherry blossoms to bloom. Secondly, it's much easier for a native English speaker to understand. Even if they don't know the legend, it's only one step to have a note about the legend and the poem than to have the legend and the poem and mention the variety of sakura, especially since I think this is probably referring to the color ink-black rather than the variety. The character in "Seki no To" is an interesting connection, but consider this: the play was first performed in 1784, whereas the legend mentioned on the Japanese Wiki dates back to the Heian period (794-1185 AD). By the time "Seki no To" was written, That legend had long been in circulation, and if anything the name Sumizome probably refers back to that. Plus, the play isn't mentioned at all on the Japanese Wiki. I agree that literally translating names of people and places is dumb, but I am arguing that "sumizome" in the song/spell card names is not a proper name, but just a color. I will wait for any counterarguments before I change the names, but I'm not backing down just yet. Sensei-Hanzo 16:55, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Sounds convincing to me. NForza 04:32, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
If NForza agrees, then that's good enough for me. Went ahead and made the changes on both pages. Sensei-Hanzo 16:41, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
If NForza agrees? It fills my heart with such sadness to see you change that title. After all, Sumizome is the name of the spirit in a cherry tree in the Japanese play, "Seki no To". We are dealing with a spirit sealed inside a tree, are we not? Code Slasher 02:28, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Did you even read what I wrote? I addressed the matter of Seki no To and I think it's secondary to the Kamutsuke no Mineo story. I agree it's a striking similarity, but it's not even mentioned on the Japanese Touhou Wiki. It's possible ZUN was going for a double meaning, but I think that ink-black should take priority. I don't mind if you want to add a note about the similarity to the play, though. Sensei-Hanzo 19:17, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Well, if we aren't going to include "Sumizome" in the title, then I guess there's not much use in mentioning it, unless we want to talk about a fan misconception. Code Slasher 04:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't have to be mentioned as a misconception, just put it as a side note and possible influence. But from what I can tell talking to other Japanese fans over Twitter, it is meant to be a color. NForza 22:08, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Although I did recently change it back to "Sumizome," after doing so more research, I do realize that perhaps it actually might have been better as "Cherry Blossoms Dyed Black" or "Cherry Blossoms Dyed in Ink." Although Sumizome-zakura is a type of cherry blossom, it still would probably make sense to translate it as "Cherry Blossoms Dyed in Ink." I have been looking over the "The Cherry Blossom of Sumizome" section that I added to Yuyuko Saigyouji and have been thinking about if it would make sense if "of Sumizome" were replaced with "Dyed in Ink" - and indeed, it actually still makes sense, at least in my mind. However, I would like to get others' opinions of this as well.--Tosiaki 01:19, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, if nobody makes a comment or edits it before I do, I will, sometime later, change it to "Dyed in Ink."--Tosiaki 01:22, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Previous arguments made state that it was intended to be a colour. In particular, "But from what I can tell talking to other Japanese fans over Twitter, it is meant to be a color." As well, you'll need to make a case as to why "Dyed in Ink" would make sense, as this implies significance in dipping petals in ink. - Kiefmaster99 01:39, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
The main reason would be to have this "ink-black" afterwards, rather than before. The main reason would be to preserve "Perfect Cherry Blossom," although I guess there isn't much disruption to it if it is just "Perfect Ink-black Cherry Blossom." "Dyed in ink" is meant to be a figurative way of expressing the color. The same is true of the original Japanese 墨染め itself means "dyed in ink" and is figurative.
In any case, I guess that since one needs to speak of 墨染桜 as a type of cherry blossom, it would make more sense to say "Ink-black cherry blossoms" than "cherry blossoms dyed in ink."
However, according to several dictionaries, like the one here, it is indeed the name of a kind of cherry blossoms, as confirmed here. I do wonder, if we are going to literally translate types of flowers, we might as well get rid of Higan-bana and Suzuran as well. There is also a higanzakura also on that page listing the types of cherry blossoms, which we leave as "Higanzakura" right here on this wiki. If we are going to leave "Higanzakura" as is, then it makes for a strong case for keeping things "Sumizomezakura" as well.--Tosiaki 01:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Given that we indeed keep the names of flowers intact (at least as of now), this suggests that we should keep "sumizomezakura/sumizome cherry blossoms" intact as well.--Tosiaki 01:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Therefore, unless we are ready to declare that we shall get rid of higanbana, suzuran, and higanzakura, there is a strong indication that we should change back to something like "(the) sumizome cherry blossom."--Tosiaki 02:12, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Furthermore, according to some photographs on the page here, in the temple Bokusenji (墨染寺), there is "Bokusenouji" (墨染櫻寺) written on it, suggesting that this 墨染 is probably a name, especially since the relevant story is very much related to the temple Bokusenji.--Tosiaki 02:27, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
If it's figurative, it's better to keep Ink-Black, which conveys the same meaning of colour. As well, if we're speaking of keeping "Perfect Cherry Blossom", then it's better to omit "the" as the game is not called "the Perfect Cherry Blossom" (contrast this with "the Embodiment of Scarlet Devil".
The dictionary mentions 墨染桜, but not quite 墨染の桜. Don't know how different they are in actuality though. A different question would have to be asked: "Does 墨染 refer to a colour by itself, or to a variety of sakura?" and "If it a variety of sakura, is Ink-Black or is Sumizome better for naming it?"
There does seem to be some inconsistencies in using Japanese/English names, though I guess this varies from game to game. This also varies because of the time span from Touhou 7 to 13. As Touhou Youyoumu is known as Perfect Cherry Blossom, it would make sense to translate it to, well, cherry blossom. On the other hand, we have "Full Sakura Blizzard" and "Night Sakura of Dead Spirits".
PoFV is a bit of a different ball game. I think there is, or was, a glossary of some sort with all the terms on it, just because whoever translated it felt it was better to leave parts untranslated. For one, "Su-san" requires the reader to know of Suzuran. Lily-of-the-valley also sounds unelegant. - Kiefmaster99 02:35, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
In my search for where 墨染の桜 came from, they all point towards that poem. In fact, some, like the one here, even say that it is not even a kind of cherry blossom, but a name given by a poem," which would, strangely enough, make it seem more like a name rather than an ordinary color.
As for where the name of the temple Bokusenji came from, pretty much all say it is also due to that poem, like the one here - as it has been used to name a temple, it even more strongly suggests that it is indeed a name.
When investigating the colors of cherry blossoms, there was a noticeable lack of here.
According to this page here, it stated that when putting the word "ink" into its name for 墨染の桜, the flower color is not ink color. This can be confirmed by doing Google image searches for 墨染桜 or 墨染の桜 as well as this page mentioned earlier.
墨染桜 is the same as 墨染の桜 - just different ways of saying it. Almost all indications point to the fact that it is a name of some sort.--Tosiaki 02:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

In fact, now that I saw some images of them, 墨染の桜 are not even ink-black at all. It doesn't make sense to call them "ink-black."--Tosiaki 03:04, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

If we're going back to the "Is Sumizome a colour or not", then we'll need the opinions of editors who claim it was a colour back for sure. Also, while Ink-Black describes a colour, the object it describes need not actually be that colour (e.g. green with envy), but I can't claim to be an expert. As well, we can't just perpetually flip-flop b/w "Ink-black" and "Sumizome."
Oh, and also check that big paragraph that Sensei-Hanzo wrote. - Kiefmaster99 03:20, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I indeed read that paragraph. However, "ink-black" does mean black, and it is clear that it is not that color. Furthermore, due to the connections to the name of the temple Bokusenji and other things, it implies that it is indeed a name of some kind. Furthermore, the term 墨染の桜 probably does not mean this type of cherry blossom in general, but the specific one mentioned in that legend. This would suggest that 墨染の桜 is, more than being the name of a kind of cherry blossom, is actually the name of that one specific tree.--Tosiaki 03:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

For example, one should look at this here. It is clear that the way they bloom, they are actually completely white - no black at all. The way the title is now, it seems a bit misleading to suggest that when they bloom, they are black in any way.--Tosiaki 03:55, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The paragraph he wrote states the following:
"Oh, cherry blossoms in the fields of Fukukusa: if you have a heart, bloom ink-black just for this year" (this is a rough translation. I'm not a poet; I was just going for the meaning). The legend goes on to say that after he finished writing the poem, the cherry blossoms near where his friend was buried all bloomed ink-black. (Bolded for emphasis)
You can't replace Ink-black with a name without destroying the translation to English. At least in the legend, the tree does bloom Ink-black. He also says:
First of all, there's a connection between the poem and the title name in that they are both requesting cherry blossoms to bloom. Secondly, it's much easier for a native English speaker to understand. Even if they don't know the legend, it's only one step to have a note about the legend and the poem than to have the legend and the poem and mention the variety of sakura, especially since I think this is probably referring to the color ink-black rather than the variety.
There is a stronger connection to the poem, requiring colour, than to the variety, at least according to the paragraph. Whatever property the actual variety has is irrelevant.
To take this a bit further, consider the context in which both names are used in:
"Bloom Nobly, Ink-black Cherry Blossoms"
"Perfect Ink-Black Cherry Blossom"
The former has "bloom nobly" preceding it. The latter is used in a spell card as a prelude to "n% Reflowering". Both emphasize blooming as a primary theme. Assuming that those lines have significance, "ink-black" carries the point in the poem better than a name would. To not use "ink-black" would sever the tie between those names and those lines in the poem. - Kiefmaster99 04:34, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

It is not quite accurate to say that that is the only relevant thing here, however. While there was that legend of Kamutsuke no Mineo, the one probably more relevant here is the one related to the Saigyou Houshi, which is a little slightly different from the Kamutsuke no Mineo version. The 墨染の桜 probably refers to this specific cherry blossom related to Saigyou Houshi - that is to say, it is the name of a specific tree, very much related to the temple Bokusenji.--Tosiaki 04:34, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Moreover, considering the names of the spell cards, it suggests some kind of relationship with the Saigyou Ayakashi - and thus with Saigyou Houshi, more than with Kamutsuke no Mineo (the Toho Moto Neta page listed the Kamutsuke no Mineo version first probably because it came earlier, not because it is more relevant). The details of its colors in the version related to Saigyou Houshi are here: it stated that it stated that it was first scarlet, then white, and then finally changed black. Thus, to say that it was first black is inaccurate.--Tosiaki 04:43, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

As long as it does turn into black sometime (or if you want to consider importance, either first or last), black is accurate enough. An analogy would be something like "Turn nobly, autumn deep-red maple leaves" I guess, which doesn't sound too odd.
I cannot comment on the second poem, so someone with more expertise than I will have to fill in. - Kiefmaster99 04:59, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, in the message written on the sign here, at the shrine in Chiba, it explains the relation to the Saigyou Houshi. Moreover, as the descendant to the past cherry tree actually blooms today in Chiba, that suggests that 墨染の桜 also refers to the present as well.--Tosiaki 05:11, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, if 墨染の桜 is related to the Saigyou Ayakashi at all (and the title of the spell cards strongly suggest that there is a relation), then it is not calling for it to bloom in ink black, but, as the cherry tree that carries the name 墨染の桜, to fully bloom in general.--Tosiaki 05:17, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, as stated in the theories section for Yuyuko Saigyouji, there is also a contradiction with the idea that if this 墨染の桜 is indeed the Saigyou Ayakashi, that it actually be the original one in the legends - there is a definitely possibility that it is simply referring to the Saigyou Ayakashi, calling it to bloom, which happens to be of this variety, but with no connection to the one of the legends.--Tosiaki 05:29, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Essentially, you are stating that the Kamutsuke no Mineo legend is not really relevant. Which is fine, but other editors will need to chip in. - Kiefmaster99 05:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

In any case, the reason why I did change it back to "Ink-black" was since I was unsure, but it does seem like the issue is not quite settled. So, in any case, yes, it would be a good thing for someone else to input on this.--Tosiaki 06:02, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, if you were unsure, then why didn't you revert your edits? *sigh* It looks like I will have to keep renaming my song file quite often if there continues to be arguments over this piece.
Anyway, I would vouch for the tree being Saigyou Ayakashi, but I would also vouch for it to fully bloom in general. After all, is that not the main plot of Perfect Cherry Blossom? In that case, should we go back to "Bloom Nobly, Cherry Blossoms of Sumizome" in order to avoid a grammar chimera? Code Slasher 22:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I didn't revert them because I already changed it once to "Sumizome" and then back to "Ink-black" so I wouldn't want to do more unnecessary flip-flopping until we can be sure. There seem to be several possibilities for what it could refer to, but I guess the important point is that there is no definite answer. That is why it is in the "theories" section in the Yuyuko Saigyouji page. Maybe masuo could be asked about this.--Tosiaki 00:55, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

My opinion is; the current translation "Ink-Black" or like that appears more appropriate to me. What makes this issue complicated is: 1. what "Sumizome" mainly points at / 2. whether or not custom to call it is strong / 3. whether we can catch a meaning or feeling of the word easily with the translated word. But, well, I make the choice without the 3 above points, though it must not conclude the discussion as said above, and though the choice of "Sumizome" is also charming me.
Of course "Sumizome" should appear better if we think rationally; Bokusen-ji was built to be related to the Ink-blacked Cherry Tree, not to the species Sumizome-zakura. So what "Sumizome" indicates is the only on thing, not exists around the world. We spell the word phonetically with the first letter large. But, from my plain sense, I can't help recommending "ink-black". Frankly speaking, when seeing "Sumizome" first, most Japanese can't understand, from their brain dictionaries about Japanese classics, what it means. You know, cherry blossom doesn't match with black ink. As you might be puzzled once, it also happens to most Japanese. Then they search the term with google, and understand the derivation. When you read above & feel like you did the same way once, "ink-black" is preferable, because it leads everyone to understand "sumi" & "zome" and to follow our same process in English to find the term. --masuo64 Talk 08:33, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, when I tried searching on Google for "ink-black cherry" or "ink-black sakura," I do not find any helpful results at all - only one result on Youtube and this wiki. When I tried searching "Sumizome," I get "Sumizome Station," and results related to Touhou. It seems like neither word is really helpful in getting people to know about what this means. I guess right now, it is a question of which one is better for leading people to its actual meaning (whether it is the species, or the name of the specific tree that Bokusen-ji is named after).--Tosiaki 08:44, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
When names are left in the original Japanese, it is a clue that people should look into the Japanese sources and mythology for more information. Given that there is a dearth of information about the "ink-black cherry blossoms" in English, it seems like it might be a little more useful to lead people to what it means through the original Japanese text. (However, this is just how it seems right now - it would be good if someone else could say something about this too).--Tosiaki 05:28, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I would like to first comment that there is no edit war going on - just a lot of confusion being discussed (or were being discussed). Second, although it is unclear whether "Sumizome" or "Ink-black" should be used, I think it is clear that it is referring to a particular tree, not to a the general kind of trees.--Tosiaki 09:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

But this is more of an opinion than a fact. Nevertheless, the current grammar is slightly off. Code Slasher 21:30, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Who done it

What's the punctuation at the end of "妖々跋扈 ~Who done it"? Several Japanese sites I've seen have it listed with an exclamation point at the end while here we have [had] it as "妖々跋扈 ~ Who done it?". Some clarification on which one is more correct would appreciated. !8RstuPId2Y 02:21, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

In the Japanese version of the official game, it's an exclamation mark. Presumably whoever did the translation on the wiki (and the patch) decided that a question mark was more grammatically accurate. DerangedTHMN 04:42, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
In that case, I'll go ahead and change the English translation back to an exclamation point, since we should never change the English section of the original title, no matter how wrong it is. After all, it is perfectly acceptable in some cases to use an exclamation point instead of a question mark for extra emphasis for a question. Code Slasher 02:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

The Fantastic Tales from Tōno

This is what this song should look like, as the town that this song pays homage to is officially spelled "Tōno". This should have nothing to do with the style guidelines, not to mention that there are none concerning this matter. Code Slasher 19:30, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

The city Tono is either Tōno or Tono, as Tokyo can be Tokyo or Tōkyō and Kyoto can either be Kyōto or Kyoto. By style guidelines, spellings like Tokyo (without the macron) are preferred over Tōkyō. I am pretty sure for other countries, cities like Almería can also be spelled Almeria, for example.--Tosiaki 20:00, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Macrons are not favoured wherein possible. The problem with Tōno is that it has a macron. 'Official' spellings have never used macrons in the past since ever. That is the de facto standard, also probably because ZUN never uses them himself.
Macrons are either abandoned in favour of wapuro, or simply dropped. Examples where this is used are in backstory (Prince Shoutoku), songs (A Flower-studded Dish on Mt. Ooe), spell cards (Nightmare of Heiankyou). Introduction of macrons into translated names would have to be discussed first. - Kiefmaster99 20:20, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
I would recommend "Toono" better in terms of consistency. --masuo64 Talk 03:48, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Does that mean... we should also use "Tookyoo" for 東京?--Tosiaki 03:57, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
I prefer Toukyou, though I choose Tokyo in English sentence. English customary usage for Japanese location has simply overlooked the long vocal sign (macron), which we can find at this wiki — Gensokyo. I would also like "Gensoukyou", but every time it has been fixed. My preference is that we spell as typing with keyboard, while I wouldn't feel like forcing it to you all. --masuo64 Talk 09:45, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
I guess that I would have also preferred things like Toukyou, Kyouto, Oosaka, as well as things like Gensoukyou etc., although I guess that due to habit, these kinds of things are deeply ingrained and therefore difficult to change, especially as they are widely used. So in any case, we are, I guess, stuck with some romanizations that are not the best.--Tosiaki 10:09, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Withered leaf

Is there a reason why the "withered leaf" part of the English translation is in uppercase? ☢ Quwanti 00:42, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

It should be turned to lower-case - when it comes to titles that were originally so--Tosiaki 01:21, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
That answers my question. Thanks! ☢ Quwanti 01:25, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Music names (esp. from PC-98 era) tend to support preserving case, even if it's wrong. - Kiefmaster99 01:30, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Translation of 妖々跋扈

Why's this translated to "Charming Domination"? I don't have a clue where "charming" came from. This title is making a word play on Youyou (妖々) which's the first two letters from the main game title Youyoumu (妖々夢) plus "domination" (跋扈, or from the latter part of 跳梁跋扈, which means the same thing), so I'd word it to something like "Ghost Domination" or "Youkai Domination". I prefer the latter more since in the Omake.txt it says

♪15.Phantasms' Domination
Yo-yo-bakko. When they first become youkai, all creatures enter a world where they do as they please. In this world, even humans, lords of creation that they are, are trifling creatures.

...no, the translation of the former part which I need is not good either. It's like:

妖怪に始まり、あらゆる妖の者が好き勝手している世界。 -> Yo-yo-bakko. The world where, starting with youkai, every possible youkai-like beings prevail.

--Doncot (talk) 07:38, 8 January 2013 (EST)

Well, from an artistical standpoint "Charming Domination" has a better ring to it than "Youkai Domination" or "Ghost Domination", but I guess that really doesn't matter. However, "Ghost Domination" makes more sense than "Youkai Domination" if you bring the title of the game into play. Oh, and you might hate me for this, but my translator translates "妖々" to "mystic". Code Slasher (talk) 03:30, 10 January 2013 (EST)
"Charming Domination" has a better ring
Whatever it is, the meaning should prior to sounding at any rate (unless "charming" has a definition of "youkai" or "mystic" such meaning that I don't know).
if you bring the title of the game into play
I was aware of that, but I chose "Youkai" because of the reason I wrote above (also because the bosses are Ran and Yukari).
you might hate me for this, but my translator translates "妖々" to "mystic".
I'm not hating you for that, but instead making me confused. I'd bet my entire Touhou collection to say, no, "妖々" does not mean "mystic". It's not a legit Japanese word in the first place so I'm wondering where your translator got that from. ZUN confirmed on the text in the demo version that this youyou is coming from classical Japanese youyou (classic: やうやう; modern: ようよう) commonly known by the Japanese in The Pillow Book meaning "gradually" and associating it with "ghost(ly)" by applying the kanji "妖" to it:
"勘の良い方なら気付くかもしれませんが、ゲームタイトルの妖々夢、とは、春はあけぼの、「やうやう」白くなりゆく山ぎわ、から来ています。とはいえ全然、春っぽくないですけど、それはストーリーの所為です(^^;"--Doncot (talk) 08:19, 10 January 2013 (EST)
Gradually/ghostly eh? What about "Creeping Domination", to imply both meanings at once? --Prime32 (talk) 16:40, 10 January 2013 (EST)
As noted earlier, this 妖々 (TL under debate) is the same as in 妖々夢. As of now though, it's ghostly according to Perfect Cherry Blossom, and mystical according to this music page. This does suggest that charming (I'm guessing derived from 妖 alone) should be switched to something else. I'm under the impression that the meaning of 妖々 would remain consistent across all three usages, unless there's something I'm missing. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 19:03, 11 January 2013 (EST)
I'm the one who translated 妖々夢 on the Perfect Cherry Blossom to "ghostly", just to point out. Anyway I'm quite sure that "mystical" and "charming" wouldn't work on all of those three usages (at least that's what I think, because it doesn't make much sense to me). Let me elaborate: I think that "妖々" translates to "ghostly", "gradually" and "youkai" (derived from the kanji "妖") but each depending on the context. As for the title and the game's theme ("東方妖々夢" and "妖々夢 ~ Snow or Cherry Petal"), I think it's reasonable to translate it to "Ghostly and Gradual Dream" because the story is about a "ghost", and "gradually" making winter to spring (the moto-neta wiki points out that snowflake crystals turn into cherry blossom petals in the PCB's stage backgrounds). But in "妖々跋扈" the "gradual" part should be removed because I don't see anything gradual in the EX/PH stage. And as the bosses of these stages are Ran and Yukari who are both youkai, I'm suggesting would logical to say it's "Youkai Domination" here (for "creeping", I think it's a lot more vague than the other two). If you think about the mob enemies (the ghost like guys), then it could be "Ghost(ly) Domination" but I think it's still okay to say "Youkai Domination" because the term "youkai" includes "ghosts (phantoms)" already.--Doncot (talk) 06:26, 12 January 2013 (EST)

Well If You Actully Count The Afterword Of The Game Then It's Not Charming Domination Nor Youkai Domination It's Actually Phantasms' Domination AWMonopolyMan 000 (talk) 05:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I'm posting here since I don't want to further the edit war on the actual page and I'd like to explain to you what I understand of their discussion, as well as add in my own opinion. 妖々 (youyou) isn't an actual word, but it's derived from the old やうやう (yauyau). As goo.ne's dictionary puts it, it's an old way to write ようよう (youyou) which means "gradually," "little-by-little," or, "narrowly". By being written with the kanji 妖 (you), used in 東方妖々夢 (touhou youyoumu) ~ Perfect Cherry Blossom as well as (touhou youyoumu) 東方妖々夢 ~ Ancient Temple, it attains a connotation of ghastliness. 妖怪 (youkai) means "youkai", and 妖 (you) is the first kanji in it. Overall, 妖 (you) means "enchanting," "bewitching," "mysterious," or, "ominous," depending on how it's used. Touhou aside, 妖怪 (youkai), taken apart, is essentially "bewitching wonder," which is a powerful way to refer to those sorts of crazy ogres, goblins, physical phenomena, and magical creatures. 々 (odoriji), a repeating character, is generally used in phrases that double-up on a word to make a new meaning that builds on the original's. 時々 (tokidoki): sometimes, is built from 時 (toki) which is simply "time"; 色々 (iroiro): various, is built from 色 (iro) which can mean "kind" or "type". Again, this reinforces the roots of やうやう (yauyau) in 妖々 (youyou)'s meaning. So, what does 妖々 (youyou) really mean? That's based on interpretation, but let me try to put this as best as I can, using my own assumptions and understanding. 妖々 (youyou) combines "gradually" with "bewitching" and spices it up with the connotation of "ghastly," which results in something akin to "Haunting Domination". That said, "Youkai Domination" is a good catch-all for the numerous meanings that this title tries to convey, but I really don't agree with "Charming" as a proper translation of 妖々 (youyou) since charming is cute or entrancing, and the title doesn't bring that image to my mind. This isn't about ZUN's afterword: this is about accuracy. Check the Wiki's guidelines on romanization (Fujiwara vs. Huziwara - they are both written as 藤原) for another example. --La bruja pícaro (talk) 07:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Well Then What Does Youyou Bakko Translate Into From romaji To English? AWMonopolyMan 000 (talk) 12:01, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
I just stated exactly what you were asking. 妖々 is youyou, 跋扈 is bakko. Simply, 跋扈 (bakko)'s meaning of "domination" is agreed upon with ease, and I wrote my thoughts on 妖々 (youyou) on the post immediately above yours. Others with more experience in Japanese than me have been discussing it above even that. Please read the entire discussion to get a better understanding of why Charming Domination is seen as insufficient. Since I'm assuming that you can't read Japanese, I'll write romaji next to every single instance of a Japanese character in my above post so at least that will be easier to read from an English standpoint. --La bruja pícaro (talk) 17:55, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

幽霊楽団 ~ Phantom Ensemble

In the title of the Prismrivers' theme song, "幽霊楽団" is translated as "Ghostly Band". Given the wiki's current standards on using "phantom" for 幽霊 and "ghost" for 亡霊, shouldn't it be "Phantom Band" now? Gilde (talk) 04:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't know why this was ignored. You make an interesting point. Code Slasher (talk) 07:04, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
That was actually one of the rationales to using "Phantom" for "Yuurei" in the first place. Note that in the past, the song was only known as "Phantom Ensemble" (kind of like "Sleeping Terror" right now). But I'm indifferent to changing it since yuurei in this case it doesn't exactly refer to the species itself. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 08:51, 15 November 2013 (UTC)


With the newer translation of 幻想(gensou) to 'illusionary' (e.g. 幻想浄瑠璃 -> Illusionary Joururi), I propose an updated translation of The Illusionary Tales from Tono from the current translation. What do you guys think? -qwerty9149 06:14, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

"Fantastic" is another acceptable translation of "幻想" in the sense that it is an adjectival form of "fantasy". Code Slasher (talk) 09:36, 7 February 2016 (UTC)


It looks as though (in the case of ネクロファンタジア ZUN prefers 'Necro-Fantasia' over 'Necrofantasia' when Perfect Cherry Blossom's afterword is taken into account. However, I think it's worth noting that, when the theme reappears in Magical Astronomy, it appears with the subtitle 'Necrophantasia.' Does anyone have any thoughts on how we should approach this discrepancy? Should we go with 'Necrophantasia' since it's the most recent English spelling from ZUN? Should we preserve 'Necro-Fantasia', as seen in Perfect Cherry Blossom's afterword? Or should we just stick to the status quo, 'Necrofantasia'? Biggest Dreamer (talk) 01:59, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

There was a previous discussion on this here, but nothing ever happened and the status quo was unchanged. At this point, I personally think there needs to be a very strong case in order to change the status quo. --DTM (talk) 19:51, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
I think it is best we revert the changes, discuss the possibilities and then change the translation accordingly. That we it can be done properly anyway. "Necrofantasia" appears on many pages. ☢ Quwanti 20:51, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Limiting everything to the "status quo", especially when it comes to spelling mistakes, is the worst thing you can do. It's not a real argument at all.

"Necrophantasia" breaks parity with "Necro-Fantasy", which is the entire reason ZUN wrote "Necro-Fantasia" like that for PCB. I have no idea how the community went this long without noticing it anyway... actually I totally do, they don't read documentation and they like to make things up besides. Whatever. You can also bet that he would have used "Necrophantasy" had it appeared.

The correct solution is to use "Necro-Fantasia" anywhere that doesn't provide a transliteration, use "Necrophantasia" for Magical Astronomy specifically, and if an album does its own transliteration just use that for that album. Simplest and most accurate, I really don't know how a solution could be better than that. Despatche (talk) 17:25, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Oh, there was a previous discussion on Magical Astronomy, and I was there! Go figure. Despite most of the replies there agreeing to the change, it was never made. However, the actual request was wrong anyway, because of the documentation right in PCB itself. Here we are again, yet people are talking about the "status quo" as if that means anything. Here's the problem with the "status quo": it can be used to explain every spelling error known to man, and it tries its hardest to obsolete the entire concept of a spelling error. That's insane. My suggestion is far less insane, as simple as possible, and as accurate as possible. There have been multiple times when other editors have decided to override the status quo, because they understood that it was a giant roadblock in the way of actually fixing the wiki. Please also remember that the people who create the status quo rarely know how to read documentation and find actual English or otherwise Latin words that we can use, let alone the very basics of Japanese required to create a romanization or transliteration. The status quo is clearly not to be trusted and should be treated with derision. Despatche (talk) 18:49, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
There has been many instances of English spelling discrepancies by ZUN's own inception. While some of those is simply a different Romanization scheme, there are many other examples where the discrepancies is not a simple matter of Romanization. ネクロファンタジア is not a real word. Simply romanizing it would lead to Necrofantasia, which is what most of the fandom refers to this as is. ZUN also provides two spellings (which is another spelling discrepancy), Necro-Fantasia and Necrophantasia. Thus it becomes unclear as to what spelling ネクロファンタジア should resolve to, hence the current discussion. As Biggest Dreamer mentioned, there is ambiguity. Should we go with 'Necrophantasia' since it's the most recent English spelling from ZUN? Should we preserve 'Necro-Fantasia', as seen in Perfect Cherry Blossom's afterword? Or should we just stick to the status quo, 'Necrofantasia', the result of simple romanization? With these multiple english spellings, the only thing consistent at all (and the only thing we can all agree is "truth") is the original Japanese ネクロファンタジア. Because there is this ambiguity, there is no clear cut answer. And since there is no clear cut answer, it is my belief that there needs to be a very strong case in order to change it, and using multiple ways to spell out ネクロファンタジア in this wiki is not a very strong case. --DTM (talk) 04:48, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
There's no actual ambiguity here. The clear-cut answer, as I've stated here and there and everywhere, and always will for the rest of my days, is that you use what the work says when the work says it. The fact of the matter is that what we have now is not what ZUN used or uses. When you have something that appears to be ambigious, the worst thing you can do is make something up yourself.
That said, I am glad that you understand the importance of the source at least to the extent of a Japanese person using Japanese characters. The logical conclusion of that is "the creator of the work can do what they want, and fans are not to override them for any reason". It's the strongest case in the world, against which there is no defense except to deny it completely. Despatche (talk) 05:02, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

So AoCF has "Necro-Fantasia" in the track list. The existence of both "Necro-Fantasy" and "Necro-Fantasia" in PCB already made one's personal interpretation of ネクロファンタジア moot anyway. The official sources are the strongest cases you can get. Clinging onto an erroneous status quo just because ZUN had inconsistencies elsewhere does not hold water until we actually see an inconsistency in the official sources with "Necrofantasia". I would like to actually implement the correction unless there is an official source that would contradict it, because so far it's 2–0. —mr.deagle T/C 19:11, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

There are contradictions all over. Official tracklist for Magical Astronomy has no hyphenation, as painful as its all-caps routine is. -- Mazian (talk) 01:44, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
The Google Play tracklist is obviously in all-caps romaji, but we're talking about a translation and not a romanization. I don't see anybody wanting to change the English to "Nekurofuantajia", so this is largely irrelevant to what the English translation should be. —mr.deagle T/C 19:08, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
I appreciate the notification on my talk page about this, but I still maintain my original stance that it should not be changed. As mentioned above, Magical Astronomy uses "Necrophantasia" on its track, which is an official source. There really are inconsistencies everywhere in the official sources. --DTM (talk) 22:55, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
No problem, thanks for iterating your stance. I'd say that because PCB came out years before MA, nobody's asking for it to be "Necrophantasia" anymore, and AoCF basically confirmed the hyphen, so I don't see this as a reason to simply disregard the official sources. Things should be allowed to change if the official sources start showing favouritism towards another translation in general, but in the case of Yukari's theme, it's definitely not "Necrofantasia". —mr.deagle T/C 17:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm gonna preface this post with saying that I don't mind whether it remain "Necrofantasia" or change to "Necro-Fantasia". I know this is like a huge deal for the fandom since the song is basically among the top 5 most iconic in all of Touhou. People get attached to things, I get it. That's the reason why we still stick with erroneous stuff like "Cirno", "Flandre", and "Maribel" (and possibly "Rumia"). Changing the title of the song would cause many an eyebrow to raise and many a head to turn. That being said, there is an actual case for "Necro-Fantasia".

Pro "Necro-Fantasia" Points

-specifically used by ZUN in PCB and AoCF

-makes sense since it pairs with "necro-fantasy"

-is grammatically correct since "necrofantasia" isn't a real word, just a compund noun of necro (relating to death) and fantasia (loose and freeform compositional style, something possessing unreal or bizzare qualities, or latin/italian for "fantasy") using the correct notation by combining the two with a hyphen (-)

Pro "Necrofantasia" Points

-is a correct romanization of the katakana presented

-looks way more aesthetically pleasing compared to "necro-fantasia"

-we're a wiki, meaning we can look back at past incidents (ex. maeriberi vs maribel) and use the precedent set by them when making decisions

There's really no "inconsistency" I see at all. Since when did we use subtitles on the CDs to decide the name of the track? If that were the case then "Pandemonic Planet" should really be "Pandemoniac Planet" according to DBOA. "Pandemonic" wasn't even a real word until very recently while "pandemoniac" has been a word for almost as long as "pandemonium" has. Should "Welcome to the Moon Tour" from MA be "Welcome to Lunatic Kingdom" (Lunatic/Lunacy comes from luna, meaning moon; which would then make the title "Welcome to the Moon Kingdom/Lunar Capital)? It's my understanding that those small blurbs beneath each track title are subtitles with subtle approximations or references to the track name above. And shouldn't we take the most recent evidence when deciding things like this? The most recent evidence (AoCF) suggests that it is indeed "Necro-Fantasia". The all-caps (likely machine) romanizations from the Google Play/iTunes stores don't factor at all into this.

With all that out of the way, it comes to this last point. As a Wiki we've decided plenty of times to override altering some things because said things were already way too ingrained in the fandom (Cirno, Flandre, etc). "Necrofantasia" is most thoroughly ingrained in the fandom and a change will almost certainly come with some amount of controversy. Using that precedent, "Necrofantasia" could indeed remain the way it is.

In the end I don't really have a preference. A hyphen doesn't really make a difference to me, personally. They mean the exact same thing. I hope my post will help you guys reach a definitive conclusion in the future, whether it simply remain "Necrofantasia" or be changed to "Necro-Fantasia". Sorry if my post was too long or if I rambled a bit, I have a tendency to do that. —Ennin (talk) 07:07, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Regarding your pro-"Necrofantasia" points:
  • The statement "Necrofantasia is a correct romanization of the katakana presented" is incorrect. One correct romanization is "nekurofantajia", and there are other Japanese romanization systems, but none of them take punctuation into account or have "cr" for that matter. As I mentioned earlier, the romanization is irrelevant to this anyway; we care about its translation.
  • "Way more aesthetically pleasing" is completely subjective, and in fact I disagree with your opinion; something as shallow as aesthetics shouldn't have any weight here.
  • This contradicts your first point about the "correct romanization" because we made the decision to use "Maribel", which is _different_ from the correct romanization. Being a wiki should not mean we can just disregard official sources (in fact, the biggest wiki of all time requires the use of sources; otherwise, you violate their original research policy).
Pandering to a fandom over a status quo that resulted from a poor decision, especially if they also write "Necro-Fantasy" and "Necrofantasia" in the same sentence, sounds like "we care about what the masses like, not what's right." This is not the philosophy I would expect from a wiki.
No worries about the length of your response—it's good to hear what you think! —mr.deagle T/C 17:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Oh yes, I totally agree with you. It's not to my liking that we as a Wiki should resist change because of things too ingrained in the fandom. I would have preferred "Chiruno" to "Cirno", "Flandoll" over "Flandre", and "Maeriberi/Maerryberry" over "Maribel". I just simply pointed out that the wiki has definitely, over the past, submitted to the "status quo" and could possibly do so again. I'm just relatively indifferent in this case because Necrofantasia and Necro-Fantasia mean the same thing, really. As far as simple translation goes they're basically identical. But I'm not here to argue, just try to present two sides. ZUN did in fact use "Necro-Fantasia" in PCB and AoCF. I'm just wondering what's the rationale behind resistance to change because all the anti Necro-Fantasia arguments so far seem shaky at best. I postulated those "pro-Necrofantasia" points based on what I think the other side's thought process is. Well, hopefully a decision can be made on this topic. Good luck.
Ennin (talk) 08:59, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
I agree for the most part that "Necrofantasia" is more aesthetically pleasing, as it is usually better to avoid using extra punctuation if at all possible. However, for the sake of accuracy, it is sometimes unavoidable. If ZUN specifically used something at the time, then we should honor it if at all possible until he overrules it (and even then we may have to go from that point onward with the new word(s)), which means that maybe we should (albeit I am reluctant to say this due to the wrath that we might incur from the fanbase) use "Necro-Fantasia". Code Slasher (talk) 23:36, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
I just want to chime in cause I keep seeing this brought up as a "pro-Necro-Fantasia" point. But I don't think the way ZUN wrote the name of the song in AoCF should have any bearing in how the song title in PCB is translated as.
The thing is, back in PCB he called it ネクロファンタジア but come AoCF he called it 憑坐は夢と現の間に ~ Necro-Fantasia. That doesn't automatically strike me as "this is how ZUN feels ネクロファンタジア should be translated as" rather it comes across as ZUN coming up with a "new but slightly different title" for a remixed song. This is nothing he hasn't done plenty of times before. For example, back in EoSD Cirno's theme is おてんば恋娘 but come PoFV he remixed it and changed the name instead to おてんば恋娘の冒険. Similarly in TD Mamizou's theme is 佐渡の二ッ岩 but come HM and onwards it was remixed and it was changed to 幻想郷の二ッ岩. This whole deal with AoCF just strikes me as the same logic as the rest where back in PCB he called it ネクロファンタジア but come AoCF he remixed and gave it a new title of Necro-Fantasia. It does not mean that Necrofantasia needs to be retranslated to Necro-Fantasia to match and be consistent, just that ZUN has a tenancy to change the name of songs when remixing them for future games. Megaman-Omega (talk) 04:13, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Both of your examples are title changes in new games rather than corrections of past mistakes. However, this discussion is not about whether or not the wiki should reflect the latest title given to a theme, as nobody's asking for PCB's translation to be changed to "憑坐は夢と現の間に ~ Necro-Fantasia". Rather, the point is that it should never have been "Necrofantasia" in the first place, as the wiki should use at least one of the official sources, and AoCF simply confirms that "Necrofantasia" is still incorrect as it always has been. These are not the same. —mr.deagle T/C 04:49, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
You yourself in numerous posts in this discussion said that one of the reasons ネクロファンタジア should be translated as "Necro-Fantasia" as opposed to "Necrofantasia" is because in AoCF ZUN gave the song the title "Necro-Fantasia". I'm not saying in PCB it should be changed to "憑坐は夢と現の間に ~ Necro-Fantasia" either. I'm saying ZUN giving a song a different title in a future game should not be the basis of logic for re-translating an older song. ZUN has changed song titles when remixing them before, so just because ZUN wrote the song as "Necro-Fantasia" with a hyphen in AoCF, that does not automatically mean that's what ネクロファンタジア should be translated to. Megaman-Omega (talk) 05:13, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Let me re-state:

  • PCB itself uses "Necro-Fantasia" (this is the basis, by the way).
  • AoCF confirms that "Necro-Fantasia" is still used.
  • We have not found any sources that use "Necrofantasia".
  • This is for consistency with both games, not just the newer one.

Your point about AoCF would be relevant if, for example, PCB had "Necrofantasia" while AoCF had "Necro-Fantasia"—or if we were talking about "Necrophantasia" (which came up earlier); however, this is not the case, as the translation is the same in both games, not different. —mr.deagle T/C 05:53, 27 February 2019 (UTC)


I didn't think too seriously about this before, but since 東方妖々夢 in the stage 5 theme appears to be directly quoting the game's title, should we change the translation to "Eastern Ghostly Dream" instead of "Eastern Mystical Dream"? Biggest Dreamer (talk) 08:03, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

妖々 Revisited for the Last Time (Hopefully)

I posted in the the main talk page for PCB a while ago and a decision seems to be have been reached for now. "妖々" is being changed back to "ghostly" in all instances except for in the titles of the extra/phantasm stages. Those two stages will use "spirtual" instead and the Prismrivers' theme will be changed to "Phantom Band ~ Phantom Ensemble". Please see the main talk page for PCB for some lengthy background on why these changes will be made. I don't want to seem too imposing so if there's any qualms we can always discuss this issue further (preferably on this page since the other is quite full). —Ennin (talk) 07:07, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Why would the Prismrivers' theme be changed? It'ss not even relevant to this. 幽霊 means phantom or ghost, and the title specifically doesn't use phantom due to repetition (it's another case of the subtitle just being a translation of the title which always kinda sucks). -- Mddass (talk) 09:13, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Because if the title is going to be changed back to "Ghostly Dream" then we can't really have it be ghostly in the Prismrivers' theme title, right? As far as I can tell both the people who originally suggested the change back to "Phantom Band" (see that section in this talk page) agreed that it could happen. And so do I. If it's redundancy you fear then why not "Phantomic Band ~ Phantom Ensemble"? Bourei and yuurei are completely different in Touhou. The Prismrivers' are poltergeists, a type of yuurei (phantom).
Ennin (talk) 09:21, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Translation of 人形裁判

It occurred to me that 裁判 could be translated in two different ways, and with how the title makes me think of 逆転裁判, I'd be more inclined to translate it as "Doll Trial" rather than "Doll Judgement". Is it just me, though? --Popfan (talk) 20:17, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Wouldn't that make it more ambiguous, though? "Trial" can have other meanings such as "tribulation", while I feel "judgement" has a generally more specific meaning. —GenoCraft (talk) 01:03, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
I think that we should focus on what the "doll[s]" are doing. "Trial" could carry a connotation of judge and jury, while "judgement" can carry a connotation of judge and executioner. If Alice's dolls are merely testing the heroine, which might be a correct deduction from ZUN's music comments, than maybe Popfan has a point. Maybe it should be "Doll Trial". Code Slasher (talk) 03:34, 30 December 2019 (UTC)