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Talk:Phantom

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Regarding Recent Edits

While working the PMiSS article for shinigami, I looked for a page linking to yuurei but could only find bourei and sourei. Where should yuurei point to? TheTrueBlue 09:36, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

亡霊 vs. 幽霊

Perfect Memento in Strict Sense uses 亡霊 for ghost, so why 幽霊? Is there a difference in the Kanji? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 01:32, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

The problem lies in translation. Both are ghosts but they are different to an extant. If you read OSP chapter 4 in Japanese, you see Yuyuko calling herself 亡霊 and in a way that it's special. In the same chapter the non-huminoid ghosts are refered to as 幽霊. Without someone to find Japanese sorces it's hard to get these right. Most or if not all English translations will define both as ghosts with a slight difference in kanji. --Hikaruxz 01:38, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually...whoever translated 幽霊 as phantom is wrong...I just noticed that. In this case Youmu and Youki are infact half ghost, not phantom which also means they are infact half dead. So in the end the ultimate problem lies with the numerous types of ghosts and creatures that Shinto has which translate the same to one thing but have an important difference. --Hikaruxz 01:39, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Alright conclusion. The phantom never existed in Touhou. It was all a translation miss that no one noticed likely becuase no one though they would both translate to the same thing. Yūrei and Bōrei are both translated as ghosts.

  • Yūrei (幽霊) - Your average ghost.
  • Bōrei (亡霊) - A ghost with all or most of it's original body structure.

--Hikaruxz 01:56, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Hikaruxz, I think you mistranslate certain words...
幽霊 DOES NOT MEAN average ghost, and 亡霊 DOES NOT MEAN A ghost with all or most of it's original body structure.
幽霊 can be understand as ghost that is already appeared in natural, and 亡霊 can be literate as a dead person's ghost. - KyoriAsh 04:34, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Some electronic dictionary

ゆう‐れい〔イウ‐〕【幽霊】

1 死者のたましい。亡魂。
2 死後さまよっている霊魂。恨みや未練を訴えるために、この世に姿を現すとされるもの。亡霊。また、ばけもの。おばけ。「―が出る」「―屋敷」
3 形式上では存在するように見せかけて、実際には存在しないもの。
ぼう‐れい〔バウ‐〕【亡霊】

1 死者の魂。亡魂。また、幽霊。
2 過去にはあったが、現在ではもはや存在していないもののたとえ。「軍国主義の―」

- KyoriAsh 04:37, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Those two weren't definitions for the actual folklore. In the Touhou versions thats what they are or appear to be right now. Thats why I put those definitions in the Touhou specific section on the page. --Hikaruxz 04:57, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

However, as of PMiSS (in Japanese), Bourei and Yuurei are different category and does not consider as "Ghost" as a whole, mind differentiate? (at least what my chinese translator counterpart recitfy this as both words have different meaning) - KyoriAsh 05:01, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
There only different in Japanese. In English theres not to many types of ghosts, or I don't really know anyother types of ghosts in Western culture that can act as an equivelent. You also have to remember that Touhou is primarily Shinto based so everything has to come from Japanese culture. The original kanji borrowed from China is heavily modified so Chinese translators can only get a good estimate of what it means.--Hikaruxz 05:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
I don't think it is a "good estimate" of what it means, as JA:幽霊, ZH-HANS:幽灵, ZH-HANT:幽靈, and JA:亡霊, ZH-HANS:亡灵, ZH-HANT:亡靈. There's similarity in terms of Shinto's definition with Chinese word - KyoriAsh 05:12, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Not by what the definition of the kanji but by what the creature is. The kanji were given to spirits belonging to native Japanese culture. Becuase they didn't have a native writing system, they had to use the kanji they borrowed from China. What the kanji means is insignificant to what it is.--Hikaruxz 05:16, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Yuurei originally consider as Phantom is due to Prismriver Sisters' Boss theme: 幽霊楽団 ~ Phantom Ensemble, that's why ZUN already differentiate Bourei and Yuurei are NOT in the same category (as Ghost) - KyoriAsh 05:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Thats just speculation or guesses. 霊知の太陽信仰 ~ Nuclear Fusion is an example 霊知の太陽信仰 doens't mean Nuclear Fusion. You also can't forget that it's the title of a song. The English and Japanese are separated words. --Hikaruxz 05:22, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
霊知の太陽信仰 ~ Nuclear Fusion is different meaning in terms of Japanese and English title, however, 幽霊楽団 ~ Phantom Ensemble is connected, you can't denied IT - KyoriAsh 05:27, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Wait (楽団) Orchestra and Ensemble are similar but still different though. An orchestra is a type of ensemble but a ensemble isn't specific to orchestra. And again it's a song title, theres nothing in the text that say a yūrei is a phantom. --Hikaruxz 05:39, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Just like phantom is one of the Yuurei, but Yuurei doesn't mean it is phantom - KyoriAsh 05:53, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
That sounds familiar. But yea a phantom may be a yūrei but you can't call a yūrei a phantom. --Hikaruxz 06:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Ya know...I don't even know what a phantom is. Pretty much every dictionary refers anything supernatural as a phantom including Youkai...but I did see ファントム in Katakana as the actual word...but directing me to both yūrei and bōrei. There is no definition for phantom besides directing you to ghost in a English dictionary to...--Hikaruxz 06:34, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Similar to Kyonshi which English doesn't have an accurate translation, but Chinese does have actual translation - KyoriAsh 06:23, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Why are people changing "phantom" to "yuurei" anyway? There was absolutely nothing wrong with that in the first place. That's even how ZUN translated it in the Prismriver's theme. "Yuurei" is translated as "phantom" and "bourei" is translated as "ghost." Simple as that. NForza 22:16, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
You get stuck in a problem here then. Phantom translates to Ghost anyway. Phantom doesn't have it's own meaning and you would always be directed to the definition of a ghost. In Western culture theres not a whole diversity thus yuurei and bourei are considered the exact same thing. The only way to be 100% accurate is to keep the romanization without translating it. It's the same case with Oni being translated to ogre and it's clear that an oni is a compleatly different creature. Another case is with almost everything supernatural in Japan translates to ghost or demon. Again the Prismriver's theme is nothing more than a song name and theres nothing stated nor is there any proof that it has any significance to the Touhou world. The reason can be as simple as becuase ghost and phantom are the same thing in English, Phantom Ensemble might of just sound better than Ghost Ensemble, although 楽団 (gakudan) is defined as orchestra, not ensemble. --Hikaruxz 00:05, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Phantom doesn't really have to mean ghost though, and besides, right in the article for "yuurei" in PMiSS, they have a clear definition to differentiate "yuurei" and "bourei" so applying that to phantoms and ghosts shouldn't be a problem. Or would "spirit" work better instead of "phantom?" And if we were going to be 100% about everything we would call Reimu a "miko" and Kasen a "sennin." Also, gakudan can be translated as "band" as well, so just any kind of music-playing group is an acceptable translation depending on the context. NForza 01:03, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Phantom and Ghost have no difference in definition. Yuurei and Bourei only have a difference to the Japanese. There both a type of ghost. Bourei being a rare and more dangerous variety of a yuurei. Yuyuko being a bourei is always group up as yuurei (Yuyuko doesn't correct any of the characters for this so theres no objection). The wording in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense can be misleading. It states that a yuurei and bourei can be mistaken for eachother, the difference is that yuurei doesn't have to be a spirit of the deceased. Bourei on the other hand are always the deceased. BUT, that doesn't mean that a bourei isn't a yuurei nor does it mean a yuurei can't be the spirit of the deceased; it simply means that theres a major difference that you need to be aware of between the two. A bourei can still be a yuurei but not all yuurei are bourei. --Hikaruxz 02:24, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
But that is exactly what is defined in the entry for "yuurei". I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that we can make special definitions within the Touhou world and apply them easily understood terms in English, because they can be applied in a similar manner i.e. All ghosts are usually phantoms but not all phantoms are ghosts. And I still claim these are similiar but not equal terms. If you study their origin, "phantom" was originally meant to apply to supernatural yet formless things, a.k.a. "yuurei". It only came to be used as a synonym for "ghost" later on, but the nuance is still different enough to need delineating, just like what Akyu did in the book. However, "ghost" has always specifically meant to be "disembodied soul of a dead person," essentially, a soul that used to be living at one point, but no longer. This also fulfills the criteria of "bourei". The terminology was just fine the way it was. NForza 03:10, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
There are yuurei that fit into the category of ghost, all the ones mentioned in Phantasmagoria of Flower view are yuurei and are translated as ghost but in . If you translated all the yuurei as phantom then people won't know what your talking about. Reimu refers to Yuyuko as Yuurei no Oyadama aka boss of the yuurei aka translated as ghost. You wouldn't translate it to phantom becuase it only makes it unnecessarily confusing. You also don't want to encourage translations over romaji in cases like these; Japanese is easily learned incorrectly from small exceptions. Phantom (The supernatural spirit) in Japanese is what it is in English, ファントム, which then redirects you to both yuurei and bourei. Keeping them within the same page makes it more clear than using exceptions and the use of romaji promotes correct use of Japanese if anyone is interested in learning it. --Hikaruxz 03:33, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Also cheaked a different dictionary. Phantom is used to describe something non-existant like a dream, mirage, or optical illusion.--Hikaruxz 03:37, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
In the case of Reimu, it was a casual nickname, not official. Like I said, the meanings are close enough that they can casually be used interchangably, but strictly speaking, it is not the case. Of course literal translations aren't going to work all the time like in those cases, but calling them ghosts is still perfectly accurate, since it has been clearly denoted that both the phantoms in PoFV and Yuyuko were previously living, therefore it is fine to call them ghosts. Basically, yuurei/phantoms that are also ghosts can be called ghosts. How is anyone learning anything incorrectly? The purpose of the wiki isn't to teach Japanese, it's to give people who have little to no knowledge of it understanding of the setting. I'm not what sure what you mean when you say "same page" though as even in PMiSS there are seperate pages for both phantoms/yuurei and ghosts/bourei. Also, earlier you said that phantom and ghost meant the same thing. Does that mean that ghosts are also non-existant like dreams, mirages or optical illusions? In any case, is there somewhere a little more appropriate for this discussion so other people will actually see it? NForza 05:00, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
The word phantom defined as a non-existant thing. Some people just later used it as an alternative name for ghost, likely just to give it more of a impact. Having a ghost page and having a phantom page is like having two ghost pages. If they mean the same thing then there no point in having two pages. And again the two sentences in both yuurei and bourei are misunderstood; it's saying there key difference between yuurei and bourei but it doesn't say a bourei is not a yuurei. One is dangerous and one is harmless and it would be important to mention that in a guide like Perfect Memento in Strict Sense. Of course your not teaching Japanese here but Touhou is a Japanese game and you can't avoid impossible translations like this, but becuase it's a Japanese game you can get off with using romaji. If it doesn't have a good translation then romaji becomes a valued tool in naming things. This is usually the case of youkai like Tsuchigumo or Hashihime where if you call them Earth Spider or Bridge Princess it doesn't sound right. Again names for youkai shouldn't have translated names in the first place becuase thats not what the youkai itself is called (It's like your personal name). The same can apply for yuurei and bourei becuase both mean the same thing, the use of romaji should be put into effect. --Hikaruxz 05:38, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

That kind of speculation is inacceptable. I'm not saying you need hard proof, but that reasoning is way too flimsy. But I don't see what your problem is. Why does it have to say a bourei is not a yuurei when it can be inferred that a bourei IS a yuurei with unique properties. 幽霊は必ずしも死者の霊とは限らない means "Yuurei are not limited to being the spirits of the deceased" which gives the impression that BEYOND the limit, they can be, hence, bourei/ghosts. Therefore, all bourei are yuurei, but not all yuurei are bourei. You keep saying that English doesn't have enough different words to differentiate between yuurei/bourei/whatever else but I think that's because your grasp on English is insufficient. You keep going by dictionary definitions and not looking further into the nuance of these words. I fully recognize that Japanese mythology has a lot of unique beings, but in this case, there is enough precedent in Western mythology to overall assign the English names to them while explaining the details in places like PMiSS. NForza 06:08, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I can understand using Asian mythology in usage with other Asian mythology but Western mythology only has equivalents not the exact thing. My problem is simply becuase not everything can be translated into English and maintain it's original definition or concept. I already explained what you just said right now, "All bourei are yuurei, but not all yuurei are bourei". You can't separate the two. Both yuurei and bourei have their primary translation as ghost.

Having them both in the same page all grouped up as ghosts makes it fine for either bourei or yuurei to be called a ghost in translations. When you call one of them phantom then conflicting translation occur. --Hikaruxz 06:19, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

But they AREN'T the same thing. You can separate the two because not all yuurei are bourei. ZUN even goes as far as to separate the two. And you can't call both ghosts because only bourei are actually ghosts by definition. There wasn't a conflicting translation because the differences between yuurei/phantoms and bourei/ghosts are clearly defined in the book. You are completely misunderstanding what I'm saying. Can we just wait until someone else takes notice of this argument so there can be some mediation because we are not getting anywhere. Those edits were made too soon, too, because there wasn't nearly enough deliberation to warrant the changes. NForza 07:34, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
OK, I double-checked the Japanese definitions in a Japanese dictionary (kotobank.jp, and sure enough, it gives almost identical definitions for yuurei and bourei. However, the definition for yuurei had an additional meaning: 形式上では存在するように見せかけて、実際には存在しないもの。 "Something with form that appears to exist, yet does not actually exist." Compare this to the entry on dictionary.com for "phantom": an appearance or illusion without material substance. It seems close enough to me. NForza 08:01, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Ok then forget arguing on this, that last edit should be a compromise. Both stated to mean the same thing but an exception in Touhou is mentioned. Also that definition of phantom is more better used to define the word genkaku (幻覚) or maboroshi (). Edit:Forgot to add the most important part is that the most important reason why there both on the same page is becuase there both the same thing outside of Touhou. BUT, a Touhou variant is added below so they know what they mean. The important part of adding them both on the same page is so that people understand the orignal version and can compare with the Touhou version. --Hikaruxz 08:16, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I know this is supposedly settled, but I'm opening this back up because I still don't agree with it in the least. If this is an English wiki, what can be explained in English should be. Unique monsters like kappa, tengu and even oni are fine, but I still think that yuurei should be phantoms and bourei should be ghosts. You need to imagine someone completely new to Touhou coming here to look up stuff. Assume that they have an elementary knowledge of Japanese folklore. But if they see Youmu as a "half-human, half-yuurei" they'll be confused as to what a yuurei is, and once they do find out, they'll think "Why not just say ghost or phantom?" The point is that while kappa, etc. are common enough in other sources, yuurei and bourei will be translated as something else because there is a suitable analogue in western mythology. There is no reason why it can't be the same here. Trying to be too accurate here just won't work. NForza 07:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Since yuurei is an established English loanword, I think that it should be left as is. However, bourei is not an established term even in Japanese mythology, so going by the Wikipedia page, perhaps it could be "ruined spirit."--としあき 08:06, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

It seems that the use of yuurei or bourei in the species has the potential to cause such confusion. After all, not everyone has the knowledge of what is a bourei/yuurei, and we can't expect everyone to catch up with this. While I do like to see phantom be used in place of yuurei, if you still want to make a distinction between yuurei and phantom, why not use expressions such as "[[yuurei|phantom]]"? For one thing, that settles any inconsistencies between what's said in the infobox of Youmu's article, and for another, the use of the word "phantom" will help first time visitors understand her identity.
@NForza: While I do agree with your opinion here, we might be facing some stalemate with this discussion just like the "ability to the extent of ~" business, so I've some alternative proposals in mind, one of which I've already posted up there. How do you think about another alternative of using parentheses? (e.g. half human half ghost (yuurei), or half human half yuurei (ghost))--This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 08:06, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I think the parentheses could be a good idea. In any case, after doing a quick search, I have found out how often "yuurei" (or "yurei") is used in English, so I see no good reason to get rid of that one. I do agree that "bourei" could be translated, though.--としあき 08:13, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

There is no problem if you want to delineate by using specific terms and affixing them to specific definitions. In other words, define "Phantom" as "yuurei" and define "Ghost" as "bourei" in their respective article pages. The use of "yuurei" as "phantom" does pose a minor problem to me though. Funayuurei (applicable to Murasa) is more commonly translated as ship ghost rather than ship phantom. - Kiefmaster99 08:35, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I would prefer keeping "yuurei" as is and translating "bourei" as "ruined spirit." The reason is that yuurei is an established English word, and any quick search for "yuurei" will turn up with relevant results. "Bourei," however, is not the same, and I think it would be better to have that one translated (to "ruined spirit").--としあき 08:44, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to propose a merge of Yuurei and Buurei into one article with subdivisions with Yuurei and Buurei with that distinction made that DeltaSierra made on the page. The idea is like having subspecies of ghosts, which might make more sense to an ordinary English speaker not familiar with Touhou or Japanese. The problem right now is that both are like Ghost in English but if you use the link on Yuyuko's or Youmu's page, you'll go to a different page with no way of moving to the other, which can be a problem since they are roughly the same concept. It's the same problem of trying to make a distinction of Jelly and Jam into Jewish, they don't make the distinction but we do.

Merge is a bad idea since they are completely different, and are not subspecies of ghosts. However, I do agree that "see also" links should be added.--としあき 09:51, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
It should be noted that the very first link on the bourei page is a link to the yuurei page, so I think that that one is already settled.--としあき 09:53, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Additionally if you think that "they are roughly the same concept," then this is a misconception that does not need to be perpetuated by merging them together. In Touhou, they are actually completely different in concept, not just a simple difference in wording.--としあき 09:54, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Buurei states that it translates into the same thing as Yuurei. Also, the description on Buurei sounds a lot like what many would call ghost (dead person remaining behind) although having a more physical form than a garden variety ghost(which western ghosts can have sometimes have a physical form temporarily.). I'm thinking having them on the same page for a side-by-side type of comparison might be a good idea.
Bourei states that ordinary Japanese usage is the same, but that in Touhou, it is completely different (hence the need to be separate). In any case, having them on the same page only for "side-by-side comparison" doesn't really seem like a good reason to have them on the same page.--としあき 10:22, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Hmm... it seems like one source of confusion might have been my recent removal of the lengthy section talking about the difference between yuurei and bourei. I removed it since it was taken from the Nicovideo Encyclopedia, although it should be noted that it was all originally from Perfect Memento in Strict Sense. For now, I have temporarily restored that section (see on the Bourei page).--としあき 10:26, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to state here that no one considers yuurei an English word. The ghost/phantom bit with a translator note is a reasonable way of handling the situation. Japanese words where an English word can work is not. Whatever compromise is established, yuurei has to go.--IcedFairy 17:12, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

No, yuurei does not have to go. It is an established enough English word that it can be used without being a barrier to most people.--としあき 18:04, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
If this were true then you wouldn't have people hunting down their logins to say it's not accepted. However it seems you and I are at an impasse. I'd like to hear from the rest of the wiki community about this, or for that matter about any of the other issues that have been popping up in regards to translation.--IcedFairy 18:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
It isn't established in the English language at all. Go look at any English dictionary and look for yuurei. You will not find it.
Stop making up baseless facts to support your illogical changes. You are damaging the wiki as a respectable resource for new Touhou fans and established Touhou fans alike. The sooner you admit that you are wrong, the sooner this place can be fixed. Squidtentacle 18:07, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Due to your personal attacks on me on that other page, it seems like you just want to attack me for everything. I wasn't even the one who originally made the change in the first place.--としあき 18:15, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
As I said there, I wasn't personally attacking you. At this point it's become clear, however, that any attempts at pointing out the flaws in the current translations and page edits will be met with stubborn refusal and the same comments made over and over without actually addressing the complaints made. It really doesn't matter at this point whether or not you made the change, because you're defending the change just as vehemently as if you made it yourself. If you don't want to be called out, don't defend something the majority is obviously upset about, whether or not you're the cause of it. Squidtentacle 18:25, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
I don't know, but saying "you're a moron" and "you're retarded" seems like a personal attack to me.--としあき 18:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
How unfortunate, because I said neither of those. Please be sure to actually read who the comments that you're responding to were made by before accusing someone of saying things. Squidtentacle 18:30, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
It seems like I made a mistake, and confused you with someone else; regardless, it is clear that you are ganging up with two others against me, as if you were trying to get rid of me. You did say several times that it would be better if I left.--としあき 18:39, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Enough of this, before I start handing out probations again. Thank you. Momiji 18:51, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, although Yuurei is a word used in the wikipedia article, the question would be if it is established enough a word within an English speaking community? For instance, if you walk into a random place full of English speakers and ask them what a Yuurei is, would there be enough people who can answer that question? Even in Wikipedia, Yuurei is more like the name of an article rather than a term listed in a dictionary; your evidence is that Yuurei was used in the wikipedia article, but if we perform a dictionary search, yuurei doesn't return any results. Hence we could think that Yuurei isn't established enough to be used as a term.
However, what we could do is utilize the Yuurei article just as it is on the wikipedia page (i.e. the article that you linked us to): We keep the Yuurei page on this wiki, use the word "ghost" or "phantom" (whichever one is decided to be used) to describe a character's species, and provide the link to the Yuurei in a parentheses or something.
I took a look at the Bourei article, by the way, and it says Bourei means the same thing as Yuurei. I don't know who wrote that part of the article, but is that sentence trying to suggest that there's possibly a way to translate both Yuurei and Bourei into similar words? (i.e. something like "phantom" and "cursed phantom" - warning: Not suggesting here that we use these two translations, just thinking up an example) --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 21:07, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I think that that is a good idea: keep it as the name of the page, but translate it when it is used elsewhere (perhaps using the parentheses idea that you suggested earlier).--としあき 23:00, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
OK, I don't think you might like this but it seems like the parentheses idea might be getting some negative feedback due to possible confusion confronted by average wiki visitors (since they'll now be thrown two different words, one of which they're not familiar with). If there seems to be too much objection to the parentheses idea I'm thinking about suggesting another alternate proposal of using links like this: Species: [[Yuurei|Ghost]] (which would be Ghost, for those of you who are wondering). --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 23:04, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
I guess I can also accept that idea. However, for bourei, I would suggest "specter," not "phantom," since "phantom" might correspond more to poltergeists.--としあき 23:31, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Wow, now why didn't I think of that word? We always encounter specter as the word in Diablo as names of ghosts and what not and my mind never hit that spot. Specter is actually a good word choice there, and I've a feeling that this one might get enough momentum. What does everyone else think? --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 23:39, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Specter works quite well in my opinion. Would we be using that to replace the old "phantom" and then return "ghost" to what it was? Squidtentacle 23:48, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
That's acceptable to me. Momiji 23:56, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
幽霊 would be ghost, and 亡霊 would be specter.--としあき 23:58, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Just like to point out how amusing it is to see the French call 幽霊 (Yûrei) "Spectre" and 亡霊 (Borei) "Fantôme" (n.b. fantôme is the generic TL for 'ghost' and 'phantom'), probably originating from the English having previously used both "ghost" and "phantom". Perhaps they have it backwards... - Kiefmaster99 01:37, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Oh gawd, don't tell NamelessLegacy, he'll have a fit over the multilayered translations, and somehow it'll all be my fault. Momiji 06:34, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Ghost and Specter sound fine to me, although I think the French have it right, and it should be Specter for yuurei and Ghost for bourei. Specter sounds a little too threatening in my opinion, but I can live with it. NForza 08:27, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Bourei are the more threatening species, so specter for bourei is better.--としあき 08:56, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Honestly, I think that would be misrepresenting what our current bourei is. A "bourei" is not a "specter", it's quite clearly a "ghost".
Another appropriate translation, if we really, really don't want to use specter or, for whatever reason, phantom, is eidolon. It would accurately represent what our current "yuurei" is, and it sounds good to boot. Squidtentacle 20:55, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Do you mean apparition? (I'm not used to the world Eidolon...) Definition wise it seems to match closely with Yuurei. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 21:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I mean eidolon, actually. A specific kind of apparition that manifests as an image of a person either living or dead, similar to the Prismrivers. I just thought it fit nicely. Personally I'd rather have phantom, but there are options. Squidtentacle 21:32, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Right, because that was the search result I got the word apparition from. If it's similar to the Prismrivers there's the risk of people making associations between eidolon and Poltergeists, in case of which I'd prefer phantom as well. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 22:29, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
No, a bourei do fit the definition of spectre well. It is the yuurei who are ghosts. Also, if "recognizability" or "using words known to most people" is your goal, then I am not sure how "eidolon" is a common word known to people any more than "yuurei" is. Also, poltergeists are not actually yuurei (if you read their entry in Perfect Memento, it will begin with "they are not actually yuurei, but they were put in this category because they couldn't fit anywhere else"). Since the Prismriver Sister's theme is "phantom ensemble," that is why the word"phantom" should be reserved for poltergeists and not yuurei or bourei.--としあき 22:59, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm not going to get into this argument again. Ghost fits the definition of our bourei, not our yuurei.
Eidolon was suggested because "specter" was too threatening. Additionally, I don't think we can take song titles as a serious statement of a character's trait. Otherwise we might as well start saying that Remilia is a dead princess. "Phantom" works perfectly fine for yuurei, and poltergeists can easily be called a subspecies of phantom as they were before. Squidtentacle 23:08, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
No, poltergeists are not a subspecies of yuurei. That is stated in Perfect Memento.
Since you say "ghost fits the definition of our bourei," I am just wondering, what do you take to be the meaning of "ghost"?--としあき 23:18, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Actually, you're right, bourei do deserve the name specter. I'm not sure what I was thinking at first. Eidolon sounds silly though. Let's just go with ghost/specter or apparition/ghost for yuurei/bourei. NForza 08:06, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
[1] "In traditional belief and fiction, a ghost is the soul or spirit of a deceased person or animal that can appear, in visible form or other manifestation, to the living.". Compare this to Akyuu's "the embodiments of deceased". No other word comes even close to matching the meaning. Not "eidolon", which includes holograms. Not "spectre", which is just an apparition. And certainly not "phantom", which just means "something illusionary". The "problem" I see here is people assuming secondary, figurative uses of "ghost" somehow invalidate the main one. They don't. They just attest to the word's wide usage and popularity - which is yet another reason to use it over anything else.
And judging from the Perfect Memento in Strict Sense/Yuurei article, yuurei are simply what we'd call spirits (and I believe that's the definition the translation should be adjusting to, not the generic Japanese understanding of the term), up to the nuance of "essence". There's a problem with Ten Desires implying they're, in fact, different from other *霊, rather than encompassing them, but still, "霊は霊", and adding some kind of a qualifier, if needed, would be preferable to using some different, unrelated word. YouDoNotHavePermissionToEditOurSecretEliteWikiWithoutAnAccountHurr 08:52, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
I am not sure what you mean by "the embodiments of deceased,"
"死者そのものの具現". YouDoNotHavePermissionToEditOurSecretEliteWikiWithoutAnAccountHurr
but usages of the word "ghost" include more than what the Wikipedia page says, including things like "the ghost of fascism" or "the ghost of nazism" and things like that, which would fit the idea of yuurei well.
First of all, I've already addressed this. I already said I'm not going to be repeating myself discussing with you, didn't I? I bolded the relevant part in case you missed it.
Second of all, this argument is self-defeating, as "ghost of nazizm" still refers specifically to a spirit of a dead movement. Contrast this with the famous use of "spectre" in the exact same context - even (or rather especially) in this figurative usage, the nuance is important, 19th century communism was a not-yet-materialized, but thriving, spreading and very much alive ideology. YouDoNotHavePermissionToEditOurSecretEliteWikiWithoutAnAccountHurr
Also, "spectre" does carry more meaning than just what the Wikipedia page says, since it is used more for phenomena that are more concrete than ghosts, and its more threatening connotation fits bourei better.--としあき 10:32, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
No, it actually doesn't and isn't. YouDoNotHavePermissionToEditOurSecretEliteWikiWithoutAnAccountHurr 14:06, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps one problem is that Touhou Project uses yuurei and bourei differently from how those words are commonly used. The word yuurei is used very frequently in the same way as how the word "ghost" is used in English, but in Touhou Project, they are indeed much closer to "essences" or "spirits," so you may be correct there. However, even so, that doesn't mean that we need to "correct" the usages of the word in the translation to make them more descriptive of the species, and the fact is that yuurei is always simply taken to be "ghost." If "spectre" means ghost, then the simple reason that it fits is because it means the same thing as ghost but is used less often, which is the same as the case for bourei (which means the same thing as yuurei but is less often used).--としあき 01:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I'll reset the indentation, it's getting unreadable. YouDoNotHavePermissionToEditOurSecretEliteWikiWithoutAnAccountHurr 20:14, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
The main problem with ZUN writing his own definitions is precisely the fact that he wrote them, and they're among the things that need to be translated. It's not that we need to make the words descriptive of the species, it's that we need to make them fit the very text of the definition itself. What you're saying makes sense and, on a purely conceptual level, making bourei into a spectre looks like a much better choice than turning yuurei into a phantom. But when I read the definitions themselves (that is, the contents of Perfect Memento) and try to insert them into the text, the former just doesn't fit. (And yes, I'm aware "spirit" for yuurei fits at least the current translation even less.)
Also, it's not a matter of "correcting" anything, it's a matter of "not breaking". ZUN doesn't seem to have intended the terms to keep their original meanings, and he certainly didn't intend to redefine the language. He probably just took whatever words he had available and used them to describe his own distinct ideas. And it's those ideas that need to be conveyed, first and foremost, rather than semantic qualities of words he named them with for the lack of better choices. (And yes, this does mean that, personally, I'm actually perfectly fine with leaving yuurei and bourei intact. I understand why people want to use English, agree with the idea and am mostly fine with any wording you might choose. All I ask for is that the entire text of the translations makes sense afterwards. And I just don't think that the choice of words that would make the text say, for example, "They're often confused with spectres, which are always the embodiments of deceased, but ghosts are not necessarily always the spirits of the deceased", (pretty much the exact opposite of the actual nuance separating the terms) achieves that.) YouDoNotHavePermissionToEditOurSecretEliteWikiWithoutAnAccountHurr 20:14, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I figured that if we want to be anal about this, buurei as described by ZUN would properly be called "revenant ghosts". YouDoNotHavePermissionToEditOurSecretEliteWikiWithoutAnAccountHurr 07:34, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
You know, I think using Yuurei/Bourei is fine. Just as long as the terms are described well enough that people understand the concept behind the new terms and have an idea on how to use them. Momiji 20:37, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
I have to strongly disagree with this. English has many different words to refer to ghosts, so effort should be put into finding the ones that best get the point of what ZUN intended across. He might have used words that already existed and put slightly different meanings in them, but just writing in Japanese on the English wiki has to be the absolute worst solution, especially since we were using Ghost and that made sense to everyone. Since they're both types of Ghosts, using "Ghost" for one of them would not be an option. And here's a thing: Consider Poltergeist a little further. We're calling that Poltergeist, not sourei. BUT the Touhou definition of Poltergeist is also slightly different than the real world definition, which seems to be the logic that has been used for using yuurei and bourei. In Touhou, they're always constructs, which is not the case in the real world. Uh, you know what I mean. (if Poltergeist is renamed sourei, I'm going to punch someone in the face). But they're a third subtype of ghosts. Right now, it seems to me that the best English terms would be spirit for yuurei and revenant for bourei. Even if the latter of those terms is probably more efficient at giving people Doom II flashbacks, it's still better than bourei since it's an actual english word. Always highly open to hearing other suggestions. KennyMan666 09:31, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
The word "spirit" is already taken by another word 霊, for which there is a need to distinguish between them and yuurei.--としあき 09:34, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
We don't need to go into "revenant" or other fancy words, and I agree with Tosiaki about why we shouldn't use "spirit". Let's just go with phantom/specter for yuurei/bourei. NForza 14:13, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
I think we should reserve phantom to being the noun form of the word "phantasmal," which comes up a lot, and has been used by ZUN freqently in unrelated circumstances. I think we can simply have yuurei be "ghost" since it was frequently used to designate Youmu for her stage on Immaterial and Missing Power.--としあき 14:35, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Ghost/specter sound fine to me too NForza 14:35, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
So, Ghost for yuurei and Specter/Spectre for bourei. Does anyone have any strong objections to that? If not, I'll move the pages soon. Well, in a few days. KennyMan666 12:15, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
I think I was being sufficiently clear that, yes, I in fact do. You can, of course, ignore me if you wish. YouDoNotHavePermissionToEditOurSecretEliteWikiWithoutAnAccountHurr 11:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I strongly feel that our current "bourei" should be Ghost. It's a spirit of the deceased, which ghosts always are. I'd be in favor of Specter for yuurei and Ghost for bourei, though, if we really don't want to go back to Phantom/Ghost for whatever reason. Squidtentacle 17:00, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I still think that Yuurei/Bourei are fine as-is. Momiji 00:41, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm fine with Ghost/Specter or Phantom/Ghost. I just don't want to leave it in Japanese. NForza 11:44, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, there is absolutely zero reason of using the Japanese words here. To quote you with the long username: "He probably just took whatever words he had available and used them to describe his own distinct ideas. And it's those ideas that need to be conveyed, first and foremost, rather than semantic qualities of words he named them with for the lack of better choices." To me, this is NOT an argument for keeping the Japanese terms. In fact, rather the opposite. In Japanese, yuurei means ghost. ZUN put a slightly different meaning in the word. But the Japanese word itself does not convey that, since it still means just "ghost". If the reader has to read the page to figure out these small distinctions anyway, then it is much more to our advantage to use words people will understand immediately on other pages, rather than make them click it and then go "Oh, it means ghost. Why didn't they just write ghost?" Someone who knows enough Japanese will read the word "yuurei" and know it means "ghost", won't need to click the link to the article to know it means ghost, and be none the wiser about that ZUN has a slightly different meaning of the word. Hell, is there any species name ZUN has used that doesn't differ slightly from the traditional meaning? ZUN's poltergeists are more different from traditional poltergeists than ZUN's ghosts are different from traditional ghosts, yet noone has ever complained about the Prismrivers being refered to as poltergeists. They're close enough to the traditional meaning for noone to raise much of an eyebrow at it. And that's what we should be doing with these words too.
Seriously, we're overcomplicating this big time. As long as we explain it on the pages, which we already do anyway and also force people to read the pages just to figure out what the fuck these fancy words we're using means, using actual English words is not going to take any of ZUN's meaning away from the words. Especially not since yuurei and bourei on their own doesn't carry any of that meaning either.
Here's a list of words to consider: Ghost, Spectre, Phantom, Wraith, Apparition, Revenant. KennyMan666 21:30, 15 May 2012 (UTC)