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Talk:Reisen: Difference between revisions

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::::As a wiki I believe we're to put facts forward, with adequate explanation where needed on the character page, talk, wherever. How people use that information is up to them. They could call her Reisen, or Rei'sen, or Reysen, or Raisin after that for all I care, but I know we would have done our jobs without bias. I see it as, like I said, editorializing, dictating, arbiting, that information, based on personal whims, preference, or change for the sake of change. Especially where that information sort of removes a central component of that character. A separate disambiguation change wouldn't even be needed, anyway, just the header as it exists.  
::::As a wiki I believe we're to put facts forward, with adequate explanation where needed on the character page, talk, wherever. How people use that information is up to them. They could call her Reisen, or Rei'sen, or Reysen, or Raisin after that for all I care, but I know we would have done our jobs without bias. I see it as, like I said, editorializing, dictating, arbiting, that information, based on personal whims, preference, or change for the sake of change. Especially where that information sort of removes a central component of that character. A separate disambiguation change wouldn't even be needed, anyway, just the header as it exists.  
::::As for Maribel or Maeriberi or Merryberry or whatever it is, or for that matter Furandooru, there's a difference in that those don't make a lick of sense of English, which isn't the case for Reisen. Her name being in kana is inconsequential because English doesn't have such a thing anyway and IMO would be a clumsy approximation. At any rate, we are still writing for an English audience, after all, where things like Maribel or Flandre are within reason and don't look R'lyehian like a proper romanization of their names would be. That said, I would change their names, as well, and leave it up to fans to use what they want after that, if that's what it took to be accurate across the board and hopefully stop these debates as far as we're concerned, but I know I'm in the minority and our minds are set. [[User:UTW|UTW]] 20:59, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
::::As for Maribel or Maeriberi or Merryberry or whatever it is, or for that matter Furandooru, there's a difference in that those don't make a lick of sense of English, which isn't the case for Reisen. Her name being in kana is inconsequential because English doesn't have such a thing anyway and IMO would be a clumsy approximation. At any rate, we are still writing for an English audience, after all, where things like Maribel or Flandre are within reason and don't look R'lyehian like a proper romanization of their names would be. That said, I would change their names, as well, and leave it up to fans to use what they want after that, if that's what it took to be accurate across the board and hopefully stop these debates as far as we're concerned, but I know I'm in the minority and our minds are set. [[User:UTW|UTW]] 20:59, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
:::::The simple fact is that her name is written differently than the other Reisen in Japanese. What you are doing is willfully ignoring that basic truth and doing your ''own'' editorializing on how her name is meant to be seen. This is your ''own'' bias which you are apparently completely blind to. I acknowledge that there may be no perfect solution to this since English doesn't have an equivalent of kanji and katakana, but loudly declaring that your own personal opinion is the "unbiased" one and making major reversions without consensus (and changing it back to Rei'sen in the process, which should be equally offensive to you by your own logic) is not how things should get done on a wiki. And of course it's beyond simple to just explain why we chose this name on the page itself, which we already do. Ultimately, it all comes down to the fact that we've accepted Rei'sen here for 4 years now without you pushing this change, but when we try to change the arbitrary Rei'sen to the equally arbitrary Reysen, with broad support among the community, suddenly that's a bridge too far? I feel that you are being dishonest here. [[User:Clarste|Clarste]] ([[User talk:Clarste|talk]]) 21:35, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
::::::You may be talking generally, but I wasn't the one who reverted it. As much as I may disagree, I play by majority rules. And I simply wasn't around or more likely missed the previous discussion. I don't even know what my thoughts would have been, but doubt I would have supported the move then either. But with it catching my eye this time albeit a smidgen late it was an opportunity to make my feelings known. Anyway, like you said they're both arbitrary changes, which I disagree with as being a better change compared to simply using Reisen, which is all this is about. [[User:UTW|UTW]] 22:21, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
:::::::Oh, my apologies. I assumed that you were at least supporting the reversion. I suppose this is the best chance for you to make your general thoughts known. But in that case, it's not clear to me why the reversion happened, and the person who did it is not here to discuss it. The edit reason says "pending discussion" but we discussed all this back in February/March/April and it was more or less unanimous, with people only bringing up a "potential objections" from third parties who are not present (and Mima arguing to revert even further back to from Rei'sen, surely an objection made 4 years too late). Then Taberone asked if there were any final objections to making the change, and waited ''two full months'' with no response. While obviously not everyone who might care will be automatically directed to this discussion, there was about as much of a consensus as there could possibly be in this context. The idea that this was still under discussion seems a little odd to me. [[User:Clarste|Clarste]] ([[User talk:Clarste|talk]]) 22:45, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
::::::::I was the one who did the reversion and I apologize for that. I was under the presumption that this change was still being talked about given the conversations in the various Discord servers and the Twitter poll about what the best course of action was and was unaware of previous discussions. If it has been truly settled than we can revert it back although it's still being talked about in the Touhou Wiki discord server. Once again, I apologize for my hasty reversion. --[[User:DTM|DTM]] ([[User talk:DTM|talk]]) 00:01, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Some notes;
*  The use of Katakana for foreign language use:  this may not even be one with a Latin character set, what's to say "Raysen"/"Reysen" would reflect that in the first place?
*  The use of apostrophes is annoying because of it's use to indicate the glottal stop.  Ask someone using "Jo'on" to pronounce that and see if they say "Joe-own".  On the other hand I understand it's use to indicate the different underlying kana, but then we get into the point of romanization in the first place.  (to properly transcribe underlying kana, or to help in pronunciation?)
*  I don't even really remember the original name-change of that article; it's been 3-4 years since then but I would've probably said the same things above, but also taking issue with the act of vanity name-changes in the first place.  Renaming Eiki Shiki was one thing, as that's her actual proper name (No, her last name isn't "Yamaxanadu").  Clarification and correction of long-standing inaccuracies are good, but pushing it out of the boundaries of normal romanization and into creative spelling just smells like [[:wikipedia:WP:NOR|original research]] to me.  (Don't get me started on [[:wikipedia:WP:IRS|original sources]].)
So I'll reiterate my opinion; I think the original "Reisen" was fine, and use of disambigs to clarify this article from Udonge's.  Also it looks like [[User:KyoriAsh|KyoriAsh]] took a Twitter poll about this; the results picked Reisen over anything else, but I do treat this talk page as the official record of action here, and recommend anyone else looking at this from elsewhere to chime in here if you want your opinion counted.  [[User:Mami|Mami]] ([[User talk:Mami|talk]]) 00:33, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
: In Japanese the characters have different names - similar pronunciations, but different spellings (one natural, one weird-looking). This concept also exists in English, so it doesn't need to be removed. Not only is it confusing to change two names into one name, but removing Udonge's decision to naturalize her name means that you're altering a major character's character arc, which is such a massive change from the source material that it shouldn't even be on the table (especially given she's one of the few people who even ''has'' an ongoing character arc in the first place). That poll "This is the voting about Reisen renaming to Reysen to fit in more for English-spoken users" is very strangely worded - not only does it present Reisen as the "real" name (thus reducing the question to "should we use the right name or not"), it makes it sound like Japanese uses one name and English uses two, rather than the other way around. --[[User:Prime32|Prime32]] ([[User talk:Prime32|talk]]) 19:43, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
:: Going from "Rei'sen" to "Reisen" sounds like an even more undesirable idea. If this change is implemented and "Rei'sen" is changed to "Reisen," how will we talk about Reisen and "Reisen" without getting confused as to which Reisen is being referred to? Or how will we even talk about "Reisen" without confusing her with the original Reisen? At least "Rei'sen" is somewhat distinguishable from the original Reisen because of the apostrophe. On another note, I was also not informed about a Twitter poll, and had no idea that there was another discussion even going on in a Discord server about this. [[User:Taberone|Taberone]] ([[User talk:Taberone|talk]]) 15:17, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
::: The same way we talk about the different [[Mai|M]][[Mai Teireida|a]][[Mai (Seihou)|i]]'s; from the context.
::: And for the record, I vote for simply ''Reisen''. ☢ [[User:Quwanti|Quwanti]] 16:35, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
::::So from my observation in Wikipedia, this article should be renamed as
::::''Reisen (Touhou Bougetsushou)''
::::This is how Wikipedia handled the same name article as example shown below:
::::[[Wikipedia:Need for Speed: Most Wanted (2005 video game)|Need for Speed: Most Wanted (2005 video game)]]
::::[[Wikipedia:Need for Speed: Most Wanted (2012 video game)|Need for Speed: Most Wanted (2012 video game)]]
:::: - [[User:KyoriAsh|KyoriAsh]] ([[User talk:KyoriAsh|talk]]) 00:51, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
To be honest, the underlying problem here is: what do you want the wiki to be?
* A purely encyclopedic and unbiased (as much as possible at least) source of information. If that's what it is supposed to be, then the wiki shouldn't even try to impose a specific spelling for a name other than what is used in official source, or if no official romanization exist, just use a consistent romanization system and stick with it. So both Reisen would be just Reisen. Because trying to differenciate the spelling in english is outside of the scope of transcription. When there are ambiguities, like multiple contradictory official sources, then favorize the "most used" term, as an encyclopedy should describe the world as it is and not try to create a trend.
** The wiki as a whole already fails if that was the original intent. We have consistently chosen to ignore the official romanization in favor of our own (eg: Joon or Jo'on instead of the original Jyoon at the time) or go out of our way to find a western name that might fit a character name that doesn't have an official romanization (eg: Maribel). Yet these biased choices have been generally accepted.
** We're not Wikipedia and probably shouldn't apply strictly the rules that operate there, because we're dealing entirely with a fiction and we would probably have to wipe half of the wiki if we wanted to keep only unbiased information. Even on the characters articles, the names origin or design inspiration are mostly [[:wikipedia:WP:NOR|original research]] no matter how plausible they sound, they are often based on historical facts rather than official Touhou sources.
* A source which federate (at least try to) what should be the reference translation/transcription people should use. In this case then the wiki would try to find the best compromise between staying close to the original source and making it more convenient for the target (english/international) audience. In this case having a separate spelling for [[Reisen Udongein Inaba|Reisen]] and [[Rei'sen|Reisen]] is definitely better as it helps identify who is who directly from the spelling, just like in japanese.
** This type of source will lead to the current situation, where different persons will have different opinions about what is "the best choice", and eventually lead to creation of new trends as new choice override the previous ones. We went from Reisen to Rei-Sen to Rei'sen and now potentially Reysen. Maybe in a few months or years, someone else will come here with another argument to change the spelling again to something else like Rēsen and find arguments to back it up.
** Looking at the comments on the [https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comments/8c5gr1/should_reisens_name_be_changed_to_raysenreysen_on/ /r/touhou thread] or the [https://www.facebook.com/TouhouWiki/posts/1728219947269988 facebook poll], there are people who don't really care about following whatever the wiki decide to do anyway. There isn't much reactions, but it also emphasizes that most people just '''don't care'''.
BTW, as far as I'm concern, I'm against going back to ''Reisen'', I don't feel like the change to ''Reysen'' is really necessary at this point, but won't vote against it if people really want to change it to that. [[User:AlphaPizza|AlphaPizza]] ([[User talk:AlphaPizza|talk]]) 01:14, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
I'm [[:wikipedia:WP:BB|being bold]] and renaming the article back to Reisen.  Especially considering how many times it's already been renamed in the past (various spellings and descriptions tacked on to the name).  [[User:Mami|Mami]] ([[User talk:Mami|talk]]) 04:20, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Earlier, it was said that "I mean people will already confuse the two characters by their first names; the disambig headers are meant to clarify that." Pretty sure that's more likely to happen now that Rei'sen is "Reisen", since now their first names are exactly the same. I still doubt that people are going to know which Reisen is being referred to in conversation and on the wiki, since the original Reisen is more visible compared to Rei'sen, and she's going to be the first thing that comes to mind when someone says "Reisen". At least with the apostrophe, you can tell Reisen and Rei'sen apart at first glance. [[User:Taberone|Taberone]] ([[User talk:Taberone|talk]]) 05:37, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
:That's how redirect works to guide you to the correct article, not name. Alternate name has been explained in the article - [[User:KyoriAsh|KyoriAsh]] ([[User talk:KyoriAsh|talk]]) 07:02, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
==Broken image?==
What happened to the IoM&IoEReisenColor.jpg image that was on this page? It showed Reisen's canon hair color. Anyone know how to fix? {{unsigned|Taberone}}
: Looks like a search-and-replace error.  Fixed.  [[User:Mazian|Mazian]] ([[User talk:Mazian|talk]]) 22:28, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
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