Difference between revisions of "Talk:Reisen"

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(Raysen v Rei'sen)
(Raysen v Rei'sen)
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:This is a bad idea all around. Even worse than changing her name in the first place. First, we're a wiki, we have disambiguation to take advantage of to direct users to whichever Reisen they want. Second, as a "de facto source" like someone said above, we have a responsibility to not go out of our way to not perpetuate misinformation, no matter how minor the character or a change is or not. Third, I think if the community latched onto the unnecessary apostrophe, they will latch onto the new spelling, and two years down the line we'll be complaining about that. By the same token, we have to trust the them to do what they will and figure it out for themselves, like they did with Reisen II, and not as I see it...be the arbiter of how we think they ''should'' spell it. Finally, pronunciation of Raysen or Reysen is also somewhat of a moot point. This is the internet, most will see her name written, not spoken, after all. I would think it's more important to address that first. And to change her name removes the fundamental point to it, being named after Reisen, after all.  
 
:This is a bad idea all around. Even worse than changing her name in the first place. First, we're a wiki, we have disambiguation to take advantage of to direct users to whichever Reisen they want. Second, as a "de facto source" like someone said above, we have a responsibility to not go out of our way to not perpetuate misinformation, no matter how minor the character or a change is or not. Third, I think if the community latched onto the unnecessary apostrophe, they will latch onto the new spelling, and two years down the line we'll be complaining about that. By the same token, we have to trust the them to do what they will and figure it out for themselves, like they did with Reisen II, and not as I see it...be the arbiter of how we think they ''should'' spell it. Finally, pronunciation of Raysen or Reysen is also somewhat of a moot point. This is the internet, most will see her name written, not spoken, after all. I would think it's more important to address that first. And to change her name removes the fundamental point to it, being named after Reisen, after all.  
 
:I really think we ought to change it back to Reisen, stick with the disambiguation header or a separate page, and be done with it. [[User:UTW|UTW]] 13:54, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 
:I really think we ought to change it back to Reisen, stick with the disambiguation header or a separate page, and be done with it. [[User:UTW|UTW]] 13:54, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 +
::The IPA is included in the infobox, so it should be clear that this Reisen and Udonge Reisen are pronounced identically. But if the apostrophe is causing confusion regarding the pronunciation, then I would be supportive of a change.
 +
::The problem I have with 'Reysen'/'Raysen' is that, while it does convey that the name is in a sense not-Japanese, it looks too American/Western for a character derived from the lunar rabbits of Japanese & Chinese folklore. If we really want to emphasize the exotic-ness of the name, perhaps we should transliterate it to Old English?
 +
::That said, for now I'd be for reverting the page back to "Reisen" or "Rei'sen" (and like Mami and UTW suggest utilize the disambiguation page). [[User:IbarakiIbuki|Ibaraki Ibuki]] ([[User talk:IbarakiIbuki|talk]]) 16:39, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Revision as of 16:39, 5 June 2018

reisen was with Watatsuki no Toyohime while she waited for Yukari Yakumo and to fall into a trap

Question[edit]

Is what's written above a fact? Or is it another vandalism by an anon? Deathsoul4 00:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

It's a fact. When Toyohime confronts Yukari in SSiB, you can clearly see Rei'sen (Who wears a helmet with floppy bunny ears) along with her. Taberone (talk) 04:51, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Hyphenated name[edit]

I'm a little curious, why is her name hyphenated all of a sudden? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 20:28, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

It's done all by Prime32. I also think it should be turned back unless s/he makes proper explanation. --masuo64 Talk 04:54, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Because 鈴仙 and レイセン are completely different in Japanese - レイセン is just an approximate pronounciation for a name from another language, while 鈴仙 is a proper Japanese name. Translating them as the same name leads to confusion between the two rabbits and obfuscates part of Udonge's backstory. I've seen plenty of people arguing that this is wrong and they should be differentiated in some way, but not doing anything because they couldn't agree on how. I figured something was better than nothing, and that it basically came down to one of three options:

  • 鈴仙 = Reisen, レイセン = REISEN. This is pretty popular in light novel and VN translations (e.g. Tohno Shiki and Tohno SHIKI in Tsukihime). But no one writes things like that in real life, and fans often miss the reason for the capitalisation and leave it out (meaning it does little to stop confusion).
  • 鈴仙 = Reisen, レイセン = Raysen/Reighsen/some other variant spelling. Likely to be mispronounced, or receive backlash for not looking Japanese.
  • 鈴仙 = Reisen, レイセン = Rei-Sen. Maintains Japanese phonics while still looking somewhat exotic, as レイセン does.

"Rei-Sen" is still close enough to "Reisen" that you could still understand references to the old spelling from context, so it seemed like the best option available. --Prime32 (talk) 21:02, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I see your point, that does clear up why there needs to be a change. I wouldn't count on the former two options, based on the same reasons mentioned. The latter, however, I'm not certain about, but I'm certainly not against it. I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do on capitalising the "sen" because I'd see that as an "hyphenated first name", e.g. "John-Paul", if I'm not looking at it as a Japanese name. Although, even I'll admit I'm not that good with how romaji should be constructed.
However, if I could throw in another suggestion, that would be "Rei'sen" with the use of an apostrophe. The apostrophe separates letters or syllables that may have ambiguity in a word (one example being the Len'en Project). I thought it'd fit nicely with the ambiguity we've got here, although I'm not certain if this is the best option for everyone; compare "Reisen" (鈴仙) with "Rei'sen" (レイセン). Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 03:12, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
The use of apostrophe is normally only used in Japanese to disambiguate the ん (n) kana from な, に, ぬ, ね, の (na, ni, nu, ne, no), such as Len'en in your previous example so that people won't confuse it for Lenen (レンエン, not レネン). Or Kin'iro and Sanzen'in. That said, it does look more aesthetically pleasing than hyphenating and capitalizing the second syllable. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 04:21, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
There is a strong need for two distinct spelling of the two moon rabbits, I understand. But honestly speaking, the hyphenated name almost always reminds me of Korean name — like Kim Jong-un or Ban Ki-moon. Sometimes for Chinese name — it's a shame I can't remember nothing but Chun-li. This hyphen is not in the official orthography, but very broadly used by far more frequently than official one. This sign in Korean works the same as the apostrophe in Japanese like above. And the hyphen is used quite less in Japanese, unless they roughly write and express "bunsetsu" or a hunch of distinct words with an unofficial sign, like "watashi matte-masu" (I'm waiting) or "nana-ban de" (No.7, please). This is obviously different from the Korean usage. If you know it and feel it's of no importance, I suppose the hyphenated name is one of good choices; the katakana is also used for modern usage when we transcribe (want to mimic) the sound. The sound, I say, cannot be understood in their language... like the noises (bow-wow, splash, etc.) and the foreign tongues (remember all European names is written in katakana). And the hyphenated name in Roman alphabet isn't, according to the point above, Japanese name. Anyway, maybe there isn't the best solution. --masuo64 Talk 07:04, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Hyphens being unusual in romanised Japanese names is exactly why I went with them - to preserve that レイセン looks unusual and isn't really Japanese. Incidentally, Kasen has a similar issue with her real name and alias being spelled differently; I like the idea of her alias being romanised as Ka-Sen, precisely because it goes with the Chinese image she tries to maintain. --Prime32 (talk) 14:31, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
You know, on second thoughts I'm starting to warm up to the apostrophe, especially if Kasen ever gets hyphenated (since using hyphens for both would imply an association that doesn't exist), but I think it would work better as Re'Isen - it looks more alien, like the kind of name you'd see on an elf, a demon, or, well, an alien. --Prime32 (talk) 01:13, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
What about "Rei Sen" with a space? Murasaki (talk) 16:27, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

lol I forgot about this. Anyway, from what I've read here, the apostrophe seems to be the most liked(?) We can always list alternative spellings on the infobox (and of course we'll need to explain these spellings under the name section). Also, I wouldn't count on using "Re'Isen", only because I'm basing it on the rules of romanising. I'm also not keen on "Rei Sen" with a space because "Sen" would then become a surname. If there's no comments, then I'll (or someone else, of course :) change it to "Rei'sen" on the page, then eventually standardise it thruout the wiki. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 17:47, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Just in here to say I concur with the use of Rei'sen. Easily distinguishable, simple change to make ("Reisen II" is terrible), pronounced the same, isn't ambiguous syntax, doesn't look weird. --Drake Irving (talk) 03:38, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Vanishing[edit]

How in the world is this an ability? Couldn't it just be, you know, the same effect used in many other manga and comics where a character that was there a second ago isn't there anymore and is instead behind the other character? Flandre5carlet (talk) 09:31, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

This ability refers directly to this occasion: 1 and 2
It's not clearly visible if it was teleportation or just high speed, that's why Vanishing has a (?) symbol, the true nature of the action is unknown. --Camilo113 (talk) 03:58, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Ahhhh. Okay, this isn't how I remembered the scene at all. My bad. Flandre5carlet (talk) 20:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Raysen v Rei'sen[edit]

I recommend changing her name from Rei'sen to Raysen. While both make it clear that it's distinct from Reisen, Rei'sen has an unnecessary apostrophe which could even incorrectly imply a glottal stop. It's also a little silly. By contrast, Raysen would be pronounced exactly the same as Reisen but strongly implies that it's not a Japanese name, which is more or less the same distinction as Katakana and Kanji. Clarste (talk) 20:26, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm all for ditching the apostrophe, but I'd rather call her "Reysen" instead. That way the spelling is kept almost the same as "Reisen", except for one distinguishable letter. --Splashman (blub) (talk) 20:36, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm also for ditching the unnecessary apostrophe. As a plus, "Raysen" is much less confusing. People still occasionally confuse Rei'sen with Reisen because the only difference is an apostrophe somehow. Taberone (talk) 21:12, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
> Raysen would be pronounced exactly the same as Reisen
By native English speakers, perhaps. Others are likely to get it wrong. So I also think that "Reysen" would work better than "Raysen". --Niektory (talk) 22:18, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
I have no objections to Reysen if people would prefer that over Raysen. They're basically the same to me. --Clarste (talk) 23:07, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
I also have no objection to renaming her into "Reysen" for the reasons listed above. I'll just have to get used to it. :P Lebon14 (talk) 13:48, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
While "Reysen" would probably fix this glottal stop mess, but it may be a problem as the existing fandom has called her "Rei'sen" for a long time. --CapTengu (talk) 18:57, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
I mean, the existing fandom only started calling her "Rei'sen" because we decided to change it to that here on Touhou Wiki two sections above, so I think people can handle it. Polaris (talk) 21:58, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Really the main issue in that sense it that it looks incredibly silly that we got everyone to change to a better name than Reisen II but now are changing again. It will probably seem unnecessary or fickle to many, and although it isn't as though the touhouwiki is a "real" authority on things like this some people treat it as a de facto source so it might be damaging to credibility in some eyes. Drake Irving (talk) 03:50, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
How much of a problem could a name change for a minor and (admittedly) insignificant character really be? I'd say that probably most Touhou fans don't even know or care that she exists, so there wouldn't be too much damage from changing her name. There's also the glottal stop thing getting solved and the issue of the apostrophe causing her to get confused with the original Reisen (especially when it comes to fans that don't know that there are two Reisens, and assume that "Rei'sen" is just an alternate way to spell Reisen I's first name) getting solved. Taberone (talk) 05:37, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm not saying it's a substantial objection, just that it's the objection that would inevitably happen. Drake Irving (talk) 05:50, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
Any last objections before I take the initiative and change Rei'sen to Raysen or Reysen (probably the latter)? Seems that we agree on the change for the most part. Taberone (talk) 23:52, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
Should this be brought up on /r/touhou? -CapTengu (talk) 00:03, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
What for? I doubt that they would care, since Rei'sen is nowhere as popular as the original Reisen is, and is pretty obscure. Might be worth bringing it up anyway, I guess. Will get to that eventually. Taberone (talk) 23:50, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
We could just change it to "Reisen", and let the disambiguation headers on all of the articles do the work. Is there any real reason it needs to be specifically romanized in a way other than "Reisen"? I mean people will already confuse the two characters by their first names; the disambig headers are meant to clarify that. Mami (talk) 03:56, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Hold on a second, there is never a conclusion of moving Rei'sen to Reysen article, and you already starting to change the whole wiki link? - KyoriAsh (talk) 02:50, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
This is a bad idea all around. Even worse than changing her name in the first place. First, we're a wiki, we have disambiguation to take advantage of to direct users to whichever Reisen they want. Second, as a "de facto source" like someone said above, we have a responsibility to not go out of our way to not perpetuate misinformation, no matter how minor the character or a change is or not. Third, I think if the community latched onto the unnecessary apostrophe, they will latch onto the new spelling, and two years down the line we'll be complaining about that. By the same token, we have to trust the them to do what they will and figure it out for themselves, like they did with Reisen II, and not as I see it...be the arbiter of how we think they should spell it. Finally, pronunciation of Raysen or Reysen is also somewhat of a moot point. This is the internet, most will see her name written, not spoken, after all. I would think it's more important to address that first. And to change her name removes the fundamental point to it, being named after Reisen, after all.
I really think we ought to change it back to Reisen, stick with the disambiguation header or a separate page, and be done with it. UTW 13:54, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
The IPA is included in the infobox, so it should be clear that this Reisen and Udonge Reisen are pronounced identically. But if the apostrophe is causing confusion regarding the pronunciation, then I would be supportive of a change.
The problem I have with 'Reysen'/'Raysen' is that, while it does convey that the name is in a sense not-Japanese, it looks too American/Western for a character derived from the lunar rabbits of Japanese & Chinese folklore. If we really want to emphasize the exotic-ness of the name, perhaps we should transliterate it to Old English?
That said, for now I'd be for reverting the page back to "Reisen" or "Rei'sen" (and like Mami and UTW suggest utilize the disambiguation page). Ibaraki Ibuki (talk) 16:39, 5 June 2018 (UTC)