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Talk:Shinmyoumaru Sukuna: Difference between revisions

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I am a bit disappointed that the comments are now shying away from using "dwarf".  As a biologist, I can say that "dwarf" is the most commonly-used term of the choices in academia.  Also, "inchling" sounds extremely derogatory in nature to me.  If we will not use "dwarf", then we should probably use "kobito", even though that may conjure up thoughts of [https://www.google.com/search?q=kobito&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=p2cKUojXE8n62gWdyoG4Ag&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=1028 these bizarre creatures] to some Eastern fans (just like many of you were thinking of the typical stereotype for dwarves).
I am a bit disappointed that the comments are now shying away from using "dwarf".  As a biologist, I can say that "dwarf" is the most commonly-used term of the choices in academia.  Also, "inchling" sounds extremely derogatory in nature to me.  If we will not use "dwarf", then we should probably use "kobito", even though that may conjure up thoughts of [https://www.google.com/search?q=kobito&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=p2cKUojXE8n62gWdyoG4Ag&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=1028 these bizarre creatures] to some Eastern fans (just like many of you were thinking of the typical stereotype for dwarves).
... Although it does sounds derogatory, some children's books do refer to Issun Boshi as an "inchling".... [[User:Code Slasher|Code Slasher]] ([[User talk:Code Slasher|talk]]) 09:42, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
... Although it does sounds derogatory, some children's books do refer to Issun Boshi as an "inchling".... [[User:Code Slasher|Code Slasher]] ([[User talk:Code Slasher|talk]]) 09:42, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
:No matter what is picked, it's going to conjure up unrelated images. I second using either "dwarf" or "kobito." [[User:Murasaki|Murasaki]] ([[User talk:Murasaki|talk]]) 10:03, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


==Omake.txt==
==Omake.txt==

Revision as of 10:03, 14 August 2013

Her Species

I was originally tempted to put her species as "midget", just because it both seemed more appropriate and prevented any confusion with the short alcoholics everybody loves (not that one, natch), but "Shining Needles" sounds like something the Dwarf Fortress name generator might produce so I decided against it. --Wymar (talk) 18:04, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Can't we just use the original Japanese? --Universalperson (talk) 02:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I'd consider it. There's already been some controversy over the use of 'dwarf' for kobito. UTW 02:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to switch it over to 'kobito'. 'Dwarf' is pretty clearly wrong, and I haven't seen anything resembling consensus on a translation --Hylarn (talk) 03:13, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm against using the original Japanese for "kobito". I can't find any good justification for retaining it when it literally means "small person", is not a unique Japanese concept, and has several English alternatives.
Unfortunately for us, the English alternatives do have undesired connotations associated with them. "Dwarf" brings the image of a short miner, whether in RPGs or in Snow White. "Midget" is pejorative. About the only alternative I can think of is "little person", but that is clunky. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 03:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I think "dwarf" is the best word to use. I think Shinmyoumaru's spell card 七人の一寸法師 is referencing 七人の小人, or the Seven Dwarfs (as in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs). Japanese Wikipedia also uses "dwarf" as an equivalent for 小人 (the other alternatives are little people and pygmy, but I'm personally not a fan). Polaris (talk) 06:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
My vote is for "dwarf" or "elf". The story refers to what is essentially a dwarf, not a strange thing in a strange suit (a kobito). Also, an entire Wikipedia category is devoted to 小人 (伝説の生物), which has its English counterpart as Dwarves (mythology). Code Slasher (talk) 07:42, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
It may be interesting to note that in at least one instance in the scientific community, a "kobito" specimen referred to a specific type of dwarfism. Code Slasher (talk) 07:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Okay, let's go down the list: 'Dwarf' universally bring to mind bearded miners anymore. 'Elf' makes people think of pointy-eared tree-huggers and is pretty much entirely wrong even if you ignore that. 'Little people' is the proper term for what this and a fairly literal translation, but would be rather clunky. I've seen 'inchling' proposed, and it works fairly well, but is a more liberal translation than this fandom usually uses --Hylarn (talk) 08:03, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
If you look at something like Attack on Titan (which DDC even references indirectly) 巨人 is translated as "titan". Following similar logic, I think 小人 could logically be translated as "dwarf". Of course, there are probably lots of others examples and precedence too. Just because Shinmyoumaru doesn't have a pickax or a pointy hat doesn't make it wrong. Otherwise Kagerou wouldn't be a werewolf because she doesn't actually get hairy all over, and Wakasagihime wouldn't be a mermaid because she doesn't have a shellfish bra. There's no need to be so picky, people use dwarf just as general word for these kind of little people myths.Flan27 (talk) 09:53, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Kobito are way smaller than dwarves though (as in, barely visible), so that would give the wrong impression. My vote's for "inchling" or "littlefolk". --Prime32 (talk) 14:26, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Fan translators of the One Piece manga are translating the little people in the latest chapters as Dwarves. IMHO, if it's good enough for a popular manga like One Piece, it's good enough for Touhou. TiamatRoar (talk) 14:40, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
"'Dwarf' universally bring to mind bearded miners anymore." What are we, the government? We are a fanbase! We do not have to be politically correct, just accurate. Also, "inchling", "littlefolk", and "little person" may be too complex. After viewing the evidence presented here, my strong vote is for "dwarf". Besides, kobito are scary. Code Slasher (talk) 17:05, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Why? What value does 'dwarf' have over, say, 'inchling'? 'Dwarf' is misleading, refers to a subset of the folktales she references, and is kind of level-breaking. I honestly can't see any reason to use it when we have alternatives available.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Hylarn (talkcontribs) 20:42, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Why would we use alternatives if they're all just subsets as well? The fact is, Dwarf is the most common term, and therefor, besides being a subset, it's also the go-to description for little people in general. It's even a common adjective, like dwarf planet or dwarf-ism or things like that. It's just a very common term which can mean a variety of things.Flan27 (talk) 20:58, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
People are already mislead into thinking that Sukuna is a Nordic Dwarf because of the initial response to the translation. Simply put, calling something a Dwarf in a fantasy setting that has a few other western myths (like Vampires and Mermaids and Werewolves) will make people think she's the kind of Dwarf you'd see in Lord of the Rings or somesuch. I believe it's best to be as accurate as possible without causing mythological confusion. I'm for calling her "One of the Little People" or somesuch. --Metaflare (talk) 21:39, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Sorry for butting in but...yeah. Anything but "dwarf". While it may be the most common term used for this, most English speaking folks have a very clear idea of what a dwarf is. They aren't going to think of brownies or Tom Thumb or the like, they are going to think of the grouchy cave dwellers with beards, which Sukuna isn't. At all. So calling her that gives the wrong impression about what she is. Also, unlike some of the earlier DDC bosses, there is not even a attempt to associate her with two different "types" of creatures. Anyway, little people, littlefolks, inchling, I'd be fine with all those. Sorry for the trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:50, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I find calling her a dwarf to be hilarious, but mostly because it brings to mind the exact wrong image. As in, I'm going to keep calling her a dwarf myself, but as a joke. For the purposes of the wiki though, it's just bad. Beards and pickaxes are one thing, but I think the main problem is size. "Dwarf" makes people think of, well, dwarves, which in both mythology and reality are basically really short people. They still have roughly human width though. Whereas the "little people" referred to in the legends Sukuna is based on are more like Tom Thumb: extremely tiny people who you might mistake for a bug. That's... a huge difference in size. If a dwarf is half a person, then a kobito (in this particular context) is like a thousandth of a person. There's an order of magnitude wrong here. Honestly I have no idea how big Sukuna is supposed to be in Touhou, and it's kind of irrelevant because she can change sizes with the hammer, but the fact that she's holding a sewing needle tells us what kind of kobito she's supposed to be, and it's not the "dwarf" kind.Clarste (talk) 22:41, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I have no idea if this helps at all, but Sukuna-hikona-no-kami is Japanese deity who is often referred to being a "dwarf" or "pygmy" in size. "Sukuna-hikona" means "renowned little prince." This doesn't really help with the whole kobito/dwarf/inchling debate, but maybe someone can find something related which would help. Personally, I'm in favor of "pygmy," but that also may conjure up the wrong images.
Oh dear what have I started. But now that Hylarn has brought up "inchling" I do find that the most appropriate term so far, not that my opinion is worth much by even my own standards. Either way, the spellcard should definitively keep the reference. --Wymar (talk) 22:57, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Better to get it started now than have to sort out everything later like with the Yama. The reference in the spellcard's pretty obviously about a different tale altogether, so yeah, that should probably remain as dwarf. But that just makes it all the more important to make sure Shinmyoumaru's race isn't 'dwarf'. Using the same word to describe Shinmyoumaru as is used to reference the seven dwarves is going to make people assume she's the same sort of dwarf. Also, as Clarste pointed out, 'dwarf' isn't commonly understood to mean 'sewing-needle-sized,', but rather 'smallish person'. I think 'Inchling' is probably best, though 'littlefolk' could work as well. It really ought to be something without an already strong cultural presence in English, though... that's probably the key part. --Antimatter625 (talk) 23:48, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I think "inchling" and "littlefolk" are good alternatives, and wouldn't mind if either were chosen. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 00:47, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
I'll support "inchling" too.--Universalperson (talk) 00:49, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
"Inchling" sounds good to me also. --Gilde (talk) 01:03, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
How about "lilliputian"? But "Inchling" is okay I guess. Stuffman (talk) 02:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
I think that the name of the character and story of "Issun" has been translated as "Little One-Inch" before. I've never heard the term inchling before, but it's intuitive enough. I've never heard of "lilliputian" before and I have no idea what it means. The biggest problem with these terms is that no one's even heard them before and there's nothing official about them, but they probably wouldn't be too bad.Flan27 (talk) 02:32, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Lilliput is the name of a fictional country in Gulliver's Travels which is inhabited by tiny people. The story is fairly well-known, so I don't think "Lilliputian" is wrong per se, but tying it so closely to something specific might be a problem. Also it's surprisingly long and I don't think anyone wants to type that over and over again. I've never heard of "inchling" before, but not only is it incredibly intuitive, it actually seems to be used in an official English translation of the Issun story ("Issun Boshi the Inchling" is for sale at Amazon.com). -Clarste (talk) 03:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I am a bit disappointed that the comments are now shying away from using "dwarf". As a biologist, I can say that "dwarf" is the most commonly-used term of the choices in academia. Also, "inchling" sounds extremely derogatory in nature to me. If we will not use "dwarf", then we should probably use "kobito", even though that may conjure up thoughts of these bizarre creatures to some Eastern fans (just like many of you were thinking of the typical stereotype for dwarves). ... Although it does sounds derogatory, some children's books do refer to Issun Boshi as an "inchling".... Code Slasher (talk) 09:42, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

No matter what is picked, it's going to conjure up unrelated images. I second using either "dwarf" or "kobito." Murasaki (talk) 10:03, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Omake.txt

I don't know Japanese, but there's some sections in the translated omake.txt that seem very odd. If I changed "Issun-Boushi's mind soon faded away" to "Issun-Boushi's mindset soon faded away" and changed "give compensation" to something like "extract a penalty" would that be a problem? --Universalperson (talk) 23:02, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

No problem at all. If any part of my translation sounds weird, editing for better flow is definitely appreciated. --Gilde (talk) 23:27, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! --Universalperson (talk) 02:03, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

進撃の小人

So, would this be an Attack on Titan reference? Even ZUN's getting into the Titan stuff. Persona! (talk) 04:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Although at least one other Touhou Wiki editor agrees, I do not think we can confirm this until we have very solid proof. Code Slasher (talk) 17:05, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Well it's "Shingeki no Kyojin" vs "Shingeki no Kojin". But what I'd say really seals it is how the name of the spell card changes to "Wall of Issun" at higher difficulties. The pattern of bullets is identical to the signature walls in Attack on Titan, and like in that series you can only pass through by attacking the "gates". --Prime32 (talk) 00:16, 14 August 2013 (UTC)