Difference between revisions of "Talk:Shinmyoumaru Sukuna"

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(Needle as a small being's weapon: new section)
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Could Shinmyoumaru's needle-sword be inspired by the [[Wikipedia: The Tale of Despereaux|Tale of Despereaux]], in which a mouse uses a needle as a sword?
 
Could Shinmyoumaru's needle-sword be inspired by the [[Wikipedia: The Tale of Despereaux|Tale of Despereaux]], in which a mouse uses a needle as a sword?
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:Nope, it's inspired by Issun-Boushi.

Latest revision as of 13:45, 17 November 2019

Her Species[edit]

I was originally tempted to put her species as "midget", just because it both seemed more appropriate and prevented any confusion with the short alcoholics everybody loves (not that one, natch), but "Shining Needles" sounds like something the Dwarf Fortress name generator might produce so I decided against it. --Wymar (talk) 18:04, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Can't we just use the original Japanese? --Universalperson (talk) 02:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I'd consider it. There's already been some controversy over the use of 'dwarf' for kobito. UTW 02:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to switch it over to 'kobito'. 'Dwarf' is pretty clearly wrong, and I haven't seen anything resembling consensus on a translation --Hylarn (talk) 03:13, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm against using the original Japanese for "kobito". I can't find any good justification for retaining it when it literally means "small person", is not a unique Japanese concept, and has several English alternatives.
Unfortunately for us, the English alternatives do have undesired connotations associated with them. "Dwarf" brings the image of a short miner, whether in RPGs or in Snow White. "Midget" is pejorative. About the only alternative I can think of is "little person", but that is clunky. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 03:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I think "dwarf" is the best word to use. I think Shinmyoumaru's spell card 七人の一寸法師 is referencing 七人の小人, or the Seven Dwarfs (as in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs). Japanese Wikipedia also uses "dwarf" as an equivalent for 小人 (the other alternatives are little people and pygmy, but I'm personally not a fan). Polaris (talk) 06:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
My vote is for "dwarf" or "elf". The story refers to what is essentially a dwarf, not a strange thing in a strange suit (a kobito). Also, an entire Wikipedia category is devoted to 小人 (伝説の生物), which has its English counterpart as Dwarves (mythology). Code Slasher (talk) 07:42, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
It may be interesting to note that in at least one instance in the scientific community, a "kobito" specimen referred to a specific type of dwarfism. Code Slasher (talk) 07:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Okay, let's go down the list: 'Dwarf' universally bring to mind bearded miners anymore. 'Elf' makes people think of pointy-eared tree-huggers and is pretty much entirely wrong even if you ignore that. 'Little people' is the proper term for what this and a fairly literal translation, but would be rather clunky. I've seen 'inchling' proposed, and it works fairly well, but is a more liberal translation than this fandom usually uses --Hylarn (talk) 08:03, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
If you look at something like Attack on Titan (which DDC even references indirectly) 巨人 is translated as "titan". Following similar logic, I think 小人 could logically be translated as "dwarf". Of course, there are probably lots of others examples and precedence too. Just because Shinmyoumaru doesn't have a pickax or a pointy hat doesn't make it wrong. Otherwise Kagerou wouldn't be a werewolf because she doesn't actually get hairy all over, and Wakasagihime wouldn't be a mermaid because she doesn't have a shellfish bra. There's no need to be so picky, people use dwarf just as general word for these kind of little people myths.Flan27 (talk) 09:53, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Kobito are way smaller than dwarves though (as in, barely visible), so that would give the wrong impression. My vote's for "inchling" or "littlefolk". --Prime32 (talk) 14:26, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Fan translators of the One Piece manga are translating the little people in the latest chapters as Dwarves. IMHO, if it's good enough for a popular manga like One Piece, it's good enough for Touhou. TiamatRoar (talk) 14:40, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
"'Dwarf' universally bring to mind bearded miners anymore." What are we, the government? We are a fanbase! We do not have to be politically correct, just accurate. Also, "inchling", "littlefolk", and "little person" may be too complex. After viewing the evidence presented here, my strong vote is for "dwarf". Besides, kobito are scary. Code Slasher (talk) 17:05, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Why? What value does 'dwarf' have over, say, 'inchling'? 'Dwarf' is misleading, refers to a subset of the folktales she references, and is kind of level-breaking. I honestly can't see any reason to use it when we have alternatives available.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Hylarn (talkcontribs) 20:42, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Why would we use alternatives if they're all just subsets as well? The fact is, Dwarf is the most common term, and therefor, besides being a subset, it's also the go-to description for little people in general. It's even a common adjective, like dwarf planet or dwarf-ism or things like that. It's just a very common term which can mean a variety of things.Flan27 (talk) 20:58, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
People are already mislead into thinking that Sukuna is a Nordic Dwarf because of the initial response to the translation. Simply put, calling something a Dwarf in a fantasy setting that has a few other western myths (like Vampires and Mermaids and Werewolves) will make people think she's the kind of Dwarf you'd see in Lord of the Rings or somesuch. I believe it's best to be as accurate as possible without causing mythological confusion. I'm for calling her "One of the Little People" or somesuch. --Metaflare (talk) 21:39, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Sorry for butting in but...yeah. Anything but "dwarf". While it may be the most common term used for this, most English speaking folks have a very clear idea of what a dwarf is. They aren't going to think of brownies or Tom Thumb or the like, they are going to think of the grouchy cave dwellers with beards, which Sukuna isn't. At all. So calling her that gives the wrong impression about what she is. Also, unlike some of the earlier DDC bosses, there is not even a attempt to associate her with two different "types" of creatures. Anyway, little people, littlefolks, inchling, I'd be fine with all those. Sorry for the trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:50, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I find calling her a dwarf to be hilarious, but mostly because it brings to mind the exact wrong image. As in, I'm going to keep calling her a dwarf myself, but as a joke. For the purposes of the wiki though, it's just bad. Beards and pickaxes are one thing, but I think the main problem is size. "Dwarf" makes people think of, well, dwarves, which in both mythology and reality are basically really short people. They still have roughly human width though. Whereas the "little people" referred to in the legends Sukuna is based on are more like Tom Thumb: extremely tiny people who you might mistake for a bug. That's... a huge difference in size. If a dwarf is half a person, then a kobito (in this particular context) is like a thousandth of a person. There's an order of magnitude wrong here. Honestly I have no idea how big Sukuna is supposed to be in Touhou, and it's kind of irrelevant because she can change sizes with the hammer, but the fact that she's holding a sewing needle tells us what kind of kobito she's supposed to be, and it's not the "dwarf" kind.Clarste (talk) 22:41, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I have no idea if this helps at all, but Sukuna-hikona-no-kami is Japanese deity who is often referred to being a "dwarf" or "pygmy" in size. "Sukuna-hikona" means "renowned little prince." This doesn't really help with the whole kobito/dwarf/inchling debate, but maybe someone can find something related which would help. Personally, I'm in favor of "pygmy," but that also may conjure up the wrong images.
Oh dear what have I started. But now that Hylarn has brought up "inchling" I do find that the most appropriate term so far, not that my opinion is worth much by even my own standards. Either way, the spellcard should definitively keep the reference. --Wymar (talk) 22:57, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Better to get it started now than have to sort out everything later like with the Yama. The reference in the spellcard's pretty obviously about a different tale altogether, so yeah, that should probably remain as dwarf. But that just makes it all the more important to make sure Shinmyoumaru's race isn't 'dwarf'. Using the same word to describe Shinmyoumaru as is used to reference the seven dwarves is going to make people assume she's the same sort of dwarf. Also, as Clarste pointed out, 'dwarf' isn't commonly understood to mean 'sewing-needle-sized,', but rather 'smallish person'. I think 'Inchling' is probably best, though 'littlefolk' could work as well. It really ought to be something without an already strong cultural presence in English, though... that's probably the key part. --Antimatter625 (talk) 23:48, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I think "inchling" and "littlefolk" are good alternatives, and wouldn't mind if either were chosen. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 00:47, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
I'll support "inchling" too.--Universalperson (talk) 00:49, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
"Inchling" sounds good to me also. --Gilde (talk) 01:03, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
How about "lilliputian"? But "Inchling" is okay I guess. Stuffman (talk) 02:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
I think that the name of the character and story of "Issun" has been translated as "Little One-Inch" before. I've never heard the term inchling before, but it's intuitive enough. I've never heard of "lilliputian" before and I have no idea what it means. The biggest problem with these terms is that no one's even heard them before and there's nothing official about them, but they probably wouldn't be too bad.Flan27 (talk) 02:32, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Lilliput is the name of a fictional country in Gulliver's Travels which is inhabited by tiny people. The story is fairly well-known, so I don't think "Lilliputian" is wrong per se, but tying it so closely to something specific might be a problem. Also it's surprisingly long and I don't think anyone wants to type that over and over again. I've never heard of "inchling" before, but not only is it incredibly intuitive, it actually seems to be used in an official English translation of the Issun story ("Issun Boshi the Inchling" is for sale at Amazon.com). -Clarste (talk) 03:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I am a bit disappointed that the comments are now shying away from using "dwarf". As a biologist, I can say that "dwarf" is the most commonly-used term of the choices in academia. Also, "inchling" sounds extremely derogatory in nature to me. If we will not use "dwarf", then we should probably use "kobito", even though that may conjure up thoughts of these bizarre creatures to some Eastern fans (just like many of you were thinking of the typical stereotype for dwarves). ... Although it does sound derogatory, some children's books do refer to Issun Boshi as an "inchling".... Code Slasher (talk) 09:42, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

No matter what is picked, it's going to conjure up unrelated images. I second using either "dwarf" or "kobito." Murasaki (talk) 10:03, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
The fact that, as a biologist, you know it's a commonly used term is exactly why it's the worst possible translation. Dwarf actually means something in English that has nothing to do with fantasy, and as far as I know does not cover this particular kind of being. "Kobito" happens to cover that sort of thing in Japanese too (dwarf elephants and whatnot), but it's also a much broader term. If you were a folklorist then maybe your assessment would have the weight you feel it should. To be fair, the wikipedia article on Tom Thumb claims that the original title of the story was "The History of Tom Thumbe, the Little, for his small stature surnamed, King Arthur's Dwarfe: whose Life and adventures containe many strange and wonderfull accidents, published for the delight of merry Time-spenders" but unless we want to go with "dwarfe" I don't think random archaisms are entirely appropriate. ...for the record she's supposed to be like the size of a mouse. This issue might be confusing to some people since she uses the mallet's magic to grow during the boss fight.-Clarste (talk) 10:28, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
The names that have been suggested thus far are "kobito," "dwarf," "inchling," "Lilliputian," and "pygmy." Assuming that we want to use a translation as opposed to the original Japanese, that leaves us with "dwarf," "inchling," "Lilliputian," and "pygmy." "Lilliputian" is not a good term because those who are not familiar with Gulliver's Travels will not understand it. Eliminating that, we are left with "dwarf," "inchling," and "pygmy." When reading translations of Japanese mythology, I have seen all three terms used for "kobito". Of the 3, I think that "inchling" is the least acceptable, mythologically speaking, but works best in size. While Shinmyoumaru is partially based on the tale of Issun-boshi, her surname most definitely comes from the dwarf/pygmy god Sukuna-hikona-no-kami. I have never seen the term "inchling" used to describe Sukuna-hikona, but I have seen "dwarf" used to describe both of them. We also have that spellcard which references Snow White. Anything that we pick is not going to be an ideal translation, but considering the myths and folktales associated with her, I think that "dwarf" is the best option.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Murasaki (talkcontribs) 11:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
I feel your argument makes a stronger case for "Kobito" (Or the generic 'littlefolk') than for "dwarf". As far as I know, Sukuna-hikona-no-kami doesn't exactly have an indication of size other than 'smaller than normal.' I think it important that her size be conveyed simply, which 'dwarf' fails to do, and with the Snow white reference, 'dwarf' would easily mislead people into assuming a height measuring in feet. 'Littlefolk' at least avoids any preconceptions, and is vague enough to be a decent translation of the vague 'kobito'. I do think 'inchling' best gets across the idea of what Sukuna is, but if we want the deliberate vagueness, then "Littlefolk" would be infinitely better than "dwarf"... it carries far less baggage.--Antimatter625 (talk) 14:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
What about "pygmy", then? It's not used very often in English language (at least not to my knowledge), so there's no real "baggage" associated with it; plus it sounds better (to me) than creating a new word. ― Darkslime 14:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
My argument was mostly "if we have to pick a translation what would make the most sense with the terms we have." While I do like "pygmy," there are Pygmy Peoples around the world. Like with "dwarf," we suffer from the problem of the word also being used to describe people as well as a mythological race. As for Sukuna-hikona-no-kami, in the translations I've seen from the late 1800s he is described as being dwarf/pygmy sized (note to self, check copy of Kojiki to see what it says.....), but in other ones he's just small sized. Murasaki (talk) 14:39, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
The problem is, the word "kobito" is also used for actual people in real life, not just the mythological creature. When you look at it that way, it has the same exact problem. ― Darkslime 15:33, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
There's no need to come up with a word that encapsulates every single meaning of the word "kobito". While that would ideal of course, the goal of a translation is to let the readers understand what's up. Dwarf carries tons of incorrect connotations, mostly of size, because it is never used to describe tiny mouse-sized people. Kobito mostly has the same meanings as the English dwarf, but it is also used to describe tiny mouse-sized people. Even if that's the only difference in the meanings of the words, that's all the difference we need. Yes, her spellcards make reference to other stories where in English we would use the word "dwarf" but what does that have to do with anything? Just chalk it up as a pun we can't translate. Or use something intentionally generic like "littlefolk". I don't think that sort of consideration should force us to choose a word that will confuse 80% of our audience, especially since a lot of art will likely show her in "giant" form where she's only slightly shorter than a human.-Clarste (talk) 22:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I wasn't aware 小人 could refer to tiny mouse-sized people in the first place. Dictionary just says, an extremely short person, alternatively an imaginary very short person in fairy tales. Doesn't even really mention any kind of Japanese/Shinto mythology, which actually isn't surprising since ZUN pulls a lot of obscure stuff out for Touhou. ― Darkslime 23:15, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, he does that. I think that we should just leave it as "kobito." Murasaki (talk) 23:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Accuracy aside, accessibility is another issue, though. While there may be no exact English equivalent to the sense of "kobito" used here, there are words that come close, and it can sometimes be worth it to use a less-accurate English word instead. Though it's unfortunate that, in this case, they have the associated "baggage"... so if people are caring this much about other people's feelings, then "kobito" is probably the way to go. I think we should still keep the spellcard "attack on dwarf" though because that sounds awesome ― Darkslime 23:54, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
I'd feel much better going with 'Littlefolk' than 'kobito'. It's probably the closest thing to a straight translation with all vagueries intact and doesn't carry any real baggage. If we leave it as "Kobito", I forsee this exact conversation repeating itself rather often until we do settle on a translation. So I'm still thinking "Littlefolk", or "Inchling" if we want to make it absolutely clear what sort of size Sukuna is, which I think would be a good idea. --Antimatter625 (talk) 01:13, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
I also like Clarste's previous mention of "inchling" - it fits pretty perfectly, and is even used in certain translations of the original story. It also doesn't have the "made up" feeling of "Littlefolk". I definitely prefer inchling to leaving it in Japanese. Also, I might make a pro/con list in a little while to sum the discussion up. ― Darkslime 12:50, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Of the 2, I'm actually for the opposite. "Little folk," to me, seems less made up than "inchling," because there are creatures in folklore and myth classified as that. While I do think that "inchling does more obviously describe her size, if we use that, part of the connection with her surname is partially lost. I guess that's only minor though, since not many fans here will probably have heard of Sukuna-hikona-no-kami. Murasaki (talk) 15:38, 15 August 2013 (UTC)


Summary and pros and cons (please feel free to edit):

  • Koropokguru
    • Pros; is the oldest word that describes what she is. Comes from the Ainu, indigenous people of Japan.
    • Cons; hard to pronounce.
  • midget
    • Pros: Everyone knows the word
    • Cons: Considered derogatory these days
  • dwarf
    • Pros: Everyone knows the word; one of her spellcards references the Seven Dwarves; another spellcard sounds way cooler as "attack on dwarf" than anything else in this list; ZUN likes making otherwise "male" concepts female anyway; a Wikipedia category translates "小人" to "dwarves"
    • Cons: It makes pretty much everyone think of the bearded, mining, ale-drinking short people from Tolkein books and films; alternatively, one of the Seven Dwarves; Shinmyoumaru is clearly shorter than a dwarf
    • Alternative: "dwarfe" (the 'e' on the end makes it seem like something different than what we're used to a "dwarf" being)
  • elf
    • Pros: Everyone knows the word; her left ear looks slightly pointed
    • Cons: She's not a forest-dwelling tall human with pointy ears, nor is she a tiny tree-dwelling cookie-maker; again the word has vastly different connotations
  • little person
    • Pros: Politically correct; a Wiktionary article translates "小人" to "small person"
    • Cons: Clunky in terms of usage; maybe a little too literal
  • pygmy
    • Pros: Short word; its relative rarity grants it a bit of mystique (in my opinion)
    • Cons: It is actually used to describe a race of real-life people
  • Lilliputian
    • Pros: Actual usage very close to the species
    • Cons: Probably intellectual property (strongly refers to Gulliver's Travels)
  • littlefolk
    • Pros: Accurately describes her physical appearance; an actual in-use classification that is close to what she actually is; keeps her surname 'pun' intact
    • Cons: Sounds like a made-up term; the actual mythological use is not well-known (to my knowledge)
  • inchling
    • Pros: Accurately describes her physical appearance; actually used in an official translation of the original story
    • Cons: Doesn't keep the surname pun intact; sounds somewhat like a made-up term; concerns expressed as to it sounding derogatory
  • kobito
    • Pros: Exactly describes Shinmyoumaru due to the word being a Romanization of "小人"
    • Cons: Accessibility concerns; as a translator, it feels like a cop-out
  • gnome
    • Pros: Another common word
    • Cons: Might make people think of shriveled old men, or lawn gnomes

I think that sums it up. Please feel free to add in anything from the discussion above that I forgot. I'm throwing my vote to either "dwarf" to keep it simple or "inchling" to keep it accurate. ― Darkslime 16:31, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Just a spelling suggestion: I think we should use "little folk" instead of "littlefolk". Also, what about throwing in "dwarfess"? Code Slasher (talk) 22:17, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
What about just leave it as "Kobito", because IMO, searching for an equivalent in English is like changing Suika's and Yuugi's species to Ogre, or Youkai to Monster...--Camilo113 (talk) 23:03, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Unlike kobito, both Oni and Youkai are quite familiar Japanese terms to the Western community. When people search about "kobito", this is the first thing to pop up on google... If we're rejecting dwarfs because of its associated image, then kobito should be avoided as well. I'm in favour of inchling, but wouldn't mind if it's a more literal translation like "little folk/ people". ― Deruaz 13:06, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Darkslime's list is very nice, well-organized and user-friendly. I feel "midget" or "pigret" sounds similar to "kobito", because "kobito" is normally used as pejorative (or medical term for a physical disorder) in everyday life except the word is obviously indicating the being of folklore. "Dwarfism" (小人, kobito-shou / lit."kobito (little person) syndrome") was renamed as "低身長症" (tei-shinchou-shou / lit."short stature syndrome"). We could see another case that there was once quite a famous freakshow "midget professional wrestling", which is normally called "kobito puroresu" (小人プロレス, midget professional wrestling / lit. kobito professional wrestling) in Japanese. As you could realize, the word smells pejorative not a little. And we should have rare cases to talk about some folklore with people around you — they usually don't have interest of it. Those points are negative. But my opinion is that "midget" fits to "kobito" if we place much value on cultural treatment of it, and "dwarf" or "elf" if we reject "midget" and place much value on political correctness. --masuo64 Talk 04:42, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
A major concern regarding inchling is that it sounds 'made up'. It is an actual English word, apparently, meaning "a small being of a kind likely to grow larger." I think it seems to fit Sukuna's race well enough (given their unique ability to use the hammer, most known for its size alteration). Actually, this is likely why 'inchling' was chosen in the story about Issun-Boshi that was mentioned, since not only does the word evoke the idea of such a small being, but fits in context as well. Regarding losing the 'Sukuna' connection... well, anyone who's likely to care is more likely to find the connection through Shinmyoumaru's name rather than her species, I'd think? And there's that name analysis here already that points it out as well. --Antimatter625 (talk) 15:54, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

By the way, this isn't concerned with the topic, but there is a manga "Hakumei & Mikochi" (former title "Kobito-Biyori"), the author of which is also making Touhou fanfics. The main characters of it are two "little girls". Sadly, that manga is unpopular despite its high quality, but one of the reasons is the difficulty of explaining the content of the work, or translating the name of their species. Japanese people might well understand them to be explained as "kobito" or "something like koropokkuru", unless the translation is a little technical — this person is also troubled with the issue. --masuo64 Talk 05:01, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Just going to tag this at the end. The first time I saw her name, I knew it was referring a bit to Sukunahikona, and after looking up Sukunahikona, he is labelled "dwarf". Therefore, I support "dwarf".—Preceding unsigned comment added by ThatGuy (talkcontribs) 17:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but I do suspect knowledge of Sukunahikona being a dwarf isn't quite as widespread as the knowledge of dwarves being the LOTR sort, even within this fandom. I still think 'dwarf' would lead to more confusion rather than less as a result. --Antimatter625 (talk) 01:01, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I think maybe just keep Kobito...and open a Kobito page on this wiki...then, we can describe everything that is said here on that page.MaronaPossessed (talk) 18:00, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that we go with "gnome". I realize there are other connotations but like someone said, those are going to happen regardless. Just anything but "kobito", please. NForza (talk) 05:50, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

While I agree with your opinion, at this point I'm afraid that we're going to end up changing it while no one is looking, and then everyone is going to come back and get mad. ― Darkslime 17:42, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
So let them get mad. It's not like I purposefully waited for the buzz to die down, I just haven't had time to check the wiki lately. This really needs to be changed. NForza (talk) 12:04, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
I already made a Kobito page. Even if the name changes, we just change the article to that new name. Now, I think we should just open a poll of some sort and make our vote. MaronaPossessed (talk) 12:35, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
According to the opinions already expressed on this talk page, that might be really difficult to do, or at least have a decisive victor. I think our only option for a poll would be to do an Olympic committee-style vote, where we have multiple round of voting and cross off a loser in each round. Code Slasher (talk) 18:53, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, a multiple-round (or personally preferred, instant-runoff) would work. At the very least, let's choose the clear favourites from among those selected to start with.
Taking a look at the big list, there seems to be at least most support for the following:
Dwarf, inchling, kobito, littlefolk. Maybe gnome, midget, or pygmy.
(Note on IRV: Basically, each choice is designated a number and then we rank then from most-preferred to least (e.g. 4231). In each round, the least popular option is dropped and anybody who voted that choice as first now votes with the second-favourite choice. This continues until one choice gets a majority). - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 02:22, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
That sounds fair. Are we including all 6 choices? Murasaki (talk) 03:20, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
Should we create a separate talk page or use an external site for the votes?MaronaPossessed (talk) 18:38, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
No. Rather, each editor will rank his or her preferences on this page. I find IRV less work only because all the rounds occur immediately after another, rather than an Olympic-style multiple round voting where votes have to be recast. This will also enable us to see how editors currently see the choices, from their most preferred to their least preferred. I only ask that editors vote sincerely, since there is a chance of manipulation when there's two or more choices. Since there seems to be general agreement, and I don't forsee any problems using this system, I'll start it off.
Note that this shouldn't be absolutely binding, but it should be treated as strong support for a particular choice or choices. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 00:53, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, ZUN calls her a Lilliputian in the latest chapter of FS. Or rather, "riripatto" written in katakana. Considering that this sort of thing is basically our entire reason for calling "sennin" hermits, I think that carries some weight.Clarste (talk) 16:30, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Only as part of a title. As was pointed out, that logic would make Kokoro's species "poker face", Mamizou's "disguiser" and Kosuzu's "bibliophile". If anything it seems a reason not to use Lilliputian, since that would make the title clinical rather than poetic. And I thought the hermit logic was because it's in the title of the comic? Prime32 (talk) 18:31, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Hermit is in the title, but there's absolutely no reason to think that it has anything to do with what "sennin" means. It could be a "poetic" title, for example. I never hear anyone argue that we should call fairies "nature deities" despite Strange and Bright Nature Deity (and Eartern and Little Nature Deity). Conversely we also have people arguing that any mention of statesmen should be "administrator" simply because of Miko's theme song. There's really no consistency in what we adopt from the English titles of things. ...and Kosuzu is a bibliophile? It's not her species, but neither is magician or maid, and those are clearly meant to be accurate. Using only youkai would have been a better argument.Clarste (talk) 03:36, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Oh yeah, I've also seen no strong movement to label Suzunaan as a "Scrollery".Clarste (talk) 03:42, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
It would be more appropriate to use Koropokguru, as this is were the legend of the Miracle mallet comes in. calling her riripatto or Kobito is derogatory and it is used by the Japanese to belittle the Ainu and these important Kami. sad while looking at the Koropokguru "clay doll on my table, with a funny little rice bowl on its head and a niddle in it hand. that I bought at Tengu-dake from the Ainu"

Instant-Runoff Choice Ranking[edit]

Please rank the following choices, from most favourite to least favourite. You may rank as many or as few as you like. You may leave a short comment on why you ranked that particular way. This poll will close in two weeks. (End of Oct. 28; 11:59PM UTC)

1. Dwarf
2. Gnome
3. Kobito
4. Inchling
5. Littlefolk
6. Midget
7. Pygmy
  • 4, 5, 1, 2, 6, 7, 3 I still find Inchling to be the most appropriate name given that it is intuitive and avoids the baggage associated with the other names. And as others mentioned before, Kobito is probably just going to bring us back to square one when enough people think it's translatable in English unlike oni or satori. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 00:53, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
    • 3, 1, 5, 7, 6, 4, 2 Murasaki (talk) 01:59, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
  • 4, 1, 5, 2, 6, 3, 7 I changed my opinion about kobito and now I think Inchling is the most fitting name because the history that Shinmyoumaru is based on (Issun-bōshi) could be interpreted as the equivalent of Tom Thumb just with the story changed. --Camilo113 (talk) 02:05, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
  • 3, 4, 6, 5, 7, 1, 2 I think the original names sometimes works much better for describing someone's species. Kobito would be no exception. ☢ Quwanti 12:28, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
  • 3,2,1,4,5,7,6 Midget seems too degrading and cheap... I'm going with Kobito because I assume is the accurate translation. I'm okay with Gnome, Dwarf, and Inchling. Littlefolk, Midget, and Pygmy are the ones I'm highly against.MaronaPossessed (talk) 12:29, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
  • 4, 2, 1, 5, 7, 6, 3 I like inchling, but "gnome" started to grow on me as well. As a translator, I cannot accept "kobito" because it is not a translation at all, but I believe I've made that stance clear. ― Darkslime 13:12, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
  • 5, 4, 3, 1, 6, 2, 7 If we're going to have to translate "kobito", I feel "littlefolk" and "inchling" do a better job of evoking the tale of Issun-bōshi than the other terms. (The only reason I favor "littlefolk" over "inchling" was the wordplay.) Ibaraki Ibuki (talk) 04:50, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
  • 5 and 4, about the same. Inchling sounds overall better but Littlefolk is more literal. That and 'kobito' has no real extra meaning outside of 'little person', so IMO it's not a bourei/yuurei issue. Mamizou (talk) 06:24, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
  • 2, 4, 5, 1, 7, 6, 3, "Kobito" shouldn't even be in the running. However, I think it might not be a bad idea to bring the discussion to other forums like MotK and make it more accessible. NForza (talk) 02:43, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
  • 1, 4, 5, 3, The other ones I really wouldn't consider.Flan27 (talk) 15:50, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
  • 4, 5, 3, 2, 7, 6, 1. As stated before, I don't really mind what you use as long as it isn't misleading, and I do think that "dwarf" (and to a lesser extant, "midget" and "gnome") kinda give the wrong impression as to what the species actually is.--Otherarrow (talk) 16:01, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
  • 4, 5, 3. I favor Inchling more because seems like a more specific race name than Littlefolk, and Kobito means much the same thing, but to those unfamiliar with the word, it's more like a specific race name. The others carry far too many connotations already, I fear. Antimatter625 (talk) 23:44, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
  • 1, 3, 5, 4. The references exist, and it would be good to use a term that is supported by the scientific community, so long as the fanbase is willing to be mature about it. Not to mention, we are a wiki, so we should probably draw most of our inspiration for style and translation from Wikipedia. This is why it pains me to see that you left "little person" out of the voting completely, because a Wiktionary article translates "小人" to "small person". Concerning 3, I would be a little scared of a fanbase rebellion if we change it now to anything radically different. On a side note, I am glad to see that Mamizou participated in the voting. Code Slasher (talk) 00:50, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
  • 4, 5, 3, 1, 2. Midget and Pygmy have entirely wrong connotations. Prime32 (talk) 16:53, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
  • What timezone is the deadline? This is important, seeing as we have editors from around the world. I'm not voting, by the way. Arcorann (talk) 08:07, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
UTC as according to the wiki. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 08:15, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Tabulation[edit]

R1: 1 (2), 2 (1), 3 (3), 4 (6), 5 (2); 2 elim
R2: 1 (2), 3 (3), 4 (7), 5 (2); 1 and 5 tie for lowest
R3
a (1 elim): 1 (2), 3 (4), 4 (8); choice 4 obtains majority
b (5 elim): 3 (3), 4 (9), 5 (2); choice 4 obtains majority

The editorship prefers choice 4 Inchling over the other choices. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 00:16, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Inchling seems to be a fine choice for me. Okay then :) MaronaPossessed (talk) 00:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Omake.txt[edit]

I don't know Japanese, but there's some sections in the translated omake.txt that seem very odd. If I changed "Issun-Boushi's mind soon faded away" to "Issun-Boushi's mindset soon faded away" and changed "give compensation" to something like "extract a penalty" would that be a problem? --Universalperson (talk) 23:02, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

No problem at all. If any part of my translation sounds weird, editing for better flow is definitely appreciated. --Gilde (talk) 23:27, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! --Universalperson (talk) 02:03, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

進撃の小人[edit]

So, would this be an Attack on Titan reference? Even ZUN's getting into the Titan stuff. Persona! (talk) 04:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Although at least one other Touhou Wiki editor agrees, I do not think we can confirm this until we have very solid proof. Code Slasher (talk) 17:05, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Well it's "Shingeki no Kyojin" vs "Shingeki no Kojin". But what I'd say really seals it is how the name of the spell card changes to "Wall of Issun" at higher difficulties. The pattern of bullets is identical to the signature walls in Attack on Titan, and like in that series you can only pass through by attacking the "gates". --Prime32 (talk) 00:16, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
It's extremely similar - I don't think there's any doubt about it. ― Darkslime 14:11, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I mentioned this on the talk page for the Stage 6 spell cards, but I think the translation would benefit from something closer to the original pun, i.e. "Attack on Tiny." Yeah, the literal meaning isn't quite the same, but I think it would be nicely reflective (Kyojin-Kojin, Titan-Tiny). --Kimiko (talk) 03:58, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The MIRACLE MALLET[edit]

Question. This seems a little hazy just from the game dialogue, so maybe someone familiar with the endings can help. I'm wondering about the "price" of the Miracle Mallet's power being used, that was shown in this game. I think the mermaid, headless, and werewolf getting violent was part of the price at least. However, whether or not the creation of tsukumogami/the heroines' weapons was intentional is a little vague. What it *seems* like is that Sakuya's sword/knife was Shinmyoumaru's own experiment, but the rest of the tsukumogami and weapons were unintentional side effects. The Miracle Mallet was used for two things that we know of - making herself bigger and making Sakuya's knife, so it's also possible that the tsukumogami creation was the price for creating Sakuya's knife. I'm just not sure. I've noted the ambiguity in the article for now, but if someone could clear that up that would be AWESOME ― Darkslime 14:25, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I personally think that the price for making the knife-tsukumogami was Sakuya turning up because of it and subsequently handing Shinyoumaru's ass to her. --Wymar (talk) 14:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


ULiL profile retranslation and 緑の小人さんが転んだ[edit]

Shinmyoumaru's ULiL profile has been retranslated. Her Occult Attack, 緑の小人さんが転んだ had previously been literally translated as "The Green Men Fell", however this attack appears to reference the game that in Japan is known as だるまさんがころんだ. In the west the game has many names, but in English the most common appears to be "Red Light, Green Light" and variations. I'm not a native English speaker so I feel I cannot judge what would be the most recognizable way to reference it in the translation. For now I've used the translation "Green Men, Green Light". Input would be greatly appreciated! --Huppa (talk) 16:58, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Needle as a small being's weapon[edit]

Could Shinmyoumaru's needle-sword be inspired by the Tale of Despereaux, in which a mouse uses a needle as a sword?

Nope, it's inspired by Issun-Boushi.