Difference between revisions of "Talk:Soga no Tojiko"

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It is on http://dic.pixiv.net/a/蘇我屠自古 and I would like to know what does exactly it say :P [[User:Berzul|Berzul]] 18:59, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 
It is on http://dic.pixiv.net/a/蘇我屠自古 and I would like to know what does exactly it say :P [[User:Berzul|Berzul]] 18:59, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
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== Mother and daughter ==
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Well, their basis's aren't really canon. It's only speculated that Tojiko is Tojiko no Iratsume and [[Mononobe no Futo|Futo]] is Futsuhime.
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Futsuhime married Soga no Umako and had five children with him. One of them was Tojiko no Iratsume. Would that mean Futo is [[wikipedia:Soga_no_Umako#Genealogy|Tojiko's mum]]? (Well, only a speculation, but...) I'm not quite sure what to do with this. --[[User:ChocolateLily|Okuu]] 07:22, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 07:22, 19 March 2012

Speculations?[edit]

I have a problem with understanding the history of this.... character. First she's "Ghost of the descendent of the Gods" when in Futo profile it says "The Mononobe, descendents of the Shinto god, " and "Soga, descendents of humans,". If she is Soga she would be Ghost of the descendent of the Humans" right? Without any other back story of how she meet Futo and how she got along with her... but nothing... It is strange for me that Zun write so little on this character in comparison to others from the same game... Berzul 20:30, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

It's becuase it's said that all Japanese are descendents of the Shinto gods aka Japanese gods. Of course becuase theres so many thats rather insignificant and only the important deities actually matter. It's like Sanae, she may be a descendent of Suwako but presumably she has most of her descendents as humans since shes still a arahitogami and not a deity. Other than that...Tojiko is just to represent Soga. There really isn't much to explain but the new book might show more information or it might only restate the odvious if there really isn't much behind Tojiko. --Hikaruxz 01:01, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't think so. descendents of Shintou deities are just the aristocrats, relatives of former rulers, or members of Tennou House. Most Japanese ancestors are farmers, subjects. The rulers didn't think they shouldn't be authorized; the authority is only Tennou, or Shougun. So most Japanese people didn't have relationship with Shintou gods.
Most monarchs got authorized to show people their relations with the men authorized already. He's not a monarch, but F. Roosevelt also had the relation with T. Roosevelt. In ancient era, the blood connection was by far more important that now, in order to take a great post. They were apt to authorize theirselves to show their superiority, insisting that their clans rooted from gods. So several roots from Shintou gods were insisted by many local Gouzoku. But after Tennou's stable domination (about Nara era), the group gain power, who insisted on their roots of Tennou House, namely depended on Tennou's authority. From then, the descendent of Shintou gods were Tennou only, while other aristocrats were authorized from their root under a past Tennou.
As the historical fact, Mononobe clan was the most conservative group (or were mass of groups), owned native-original great geological & military technology, and look up to the native religion (Shintou). They didn't need a new element. On the other hand, Soga clan was the most liberal group, imported the up-to-date technology & thought from China, and respected the imported religion (Buddism).
The power game between Soga clan and Mononobe clan were kept before the time of Umako, you know. The religinal battles were lifted on it in the time of Umako's father. Mononobe clan did surely believe their origin were a deity. But, um, I can't confirm now that Soga were from human, though... --masuo64 Talk 03:37, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
But then if you look at it this way. The Touhou series is mainly based on Shinto. While looking further back, Japanese were primarily hunters and gathers rather than farmers. Shinto in it's early stages (Before it was even named) existed before farming was available. Japan is one of the oldest countries that survived on stone tools and hunting animals to survive during the time farming became a major part in other places in the world (Pointless information). Assuming that Touhou has Shinto as its base then regardless of what the Soga or anyother Japanese think, there descendents of the Japanese gods whether they like it or not (In the Touhou world). Of course if you want to use science, without knowing the genetics of the Yaoyorozu, it's impossible to know what your looking for when you study the genetics of the Japanese people (Impossible idea).
Looking again at the Yaoyorozu, theres countless numbers of deities. If a minor deities mixed with some unimportant humans then it's insignificant. It only matters when a group is a descendent of a powerful deities. (Of course this is looking at it in the case that the Yaoyorozu exists.) Of course in the Touhou series you already have examples of deities from this specific group.
What you stated are facts based on science and logic. When you look at fictional work you use science to answers things in the case of that fictional world existing as if was non-fiction. Basically you can't deny the existance of the Japanese gods in the Touhou world because they already appeared, thus saying that descendents of deities is only self-proclaimed doesn't apply here.
All religion is easily crushed by science and logic, but thats not really the point here becuase it only makes fictional stories like this more confusing. It's not what you said was incorrect becuase that's pretty much it in the logical sense. I of course do it all the time since I only use science and facts for real world answers.--Hikaruxz 06:04, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I forgot that there two types of Shinto were taking about. 1.All Japanese are descendents of the Japanese gods. (Early version) 2.Only royaly Japanese are descendents of the Japanese gods. (Later version)

If you look at some other fictional works, characters can easily be made as descendents of minor/weak deities which applies to #1. While major ones are always going to apply to #2. Like the second portion of the previous post, really...only the important ones actually matter. I was just taking a guess and assumed Touhou used the earlier version since it was more a natural process where deities just naturally mixed in with humans. Again you can easily take this down using science and logic.

EDIT:WAIT...why am I talking about this. The original question was on Soga no Tojiko...--Hikaruxz 06:20, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Zun speaks[edit]

なお、時々神子との間柄を「公式夫婦」と表記している作品があるが、元ネタが夫婦であるだけで、神霊廟の設定上では上司部下の関係であり、特別に深い繋がりがあるわけではない。同じことが布都についても言えるので注意。ZUN氏もこの事について聞かれた際 「一応そうであるが名前を厨二っぽくしただけで名前が似ているだけの別人」とコメントしている。

It is on http://dic.pixiv.net/a/蘇我屠自古 and I would like to know what does exactly it say :P Berzul 18:59, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Mother and daughter[edit]

Well, their basis's aren't really canon. It's only speculated that Tojiko is Tojiko no Iratsume and Futo is Futsuhime.

Futsuhime married Soga no Umako and had five children with him. One of them was Tojiko no Iratsume. Would that mean Futo is Tojiko's mum? (Well, only a speculation, but...) I'm not quite sure what to do with this. --Okuu 07:22, 19 March 2012 (UTC)