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Talk:Touhou Hisoutensoku

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Imperative Note August

Unthinkable Natural Law is wrong. Do not continue to use or condone the usage of this alliteration. Hisou Tensoku is but a name of the large action figure seen in the opening title page. Please change any abbreviations that use Unthinkable Natural Law, and continue to remove this improper usage from the wiki. The preceding comment was written by 125.212.124.180 10:48, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Then, what do you think for the best solution after erasing it? At least, that translation of the title is very suitable and appropriate for the story and the title itself: Tensoku wo Omohu ni Arazu (not considering the Rule from the Heaven). Hmm, I don't know what other people think. --Masuo64 11:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
So lets make the pages confusing for the newcomer by using HT, that never before was mentioned, instead? Way to go.--Umhyuk 15:25, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
No, stop. It's not a title. It's his name. We do not translate Reimu into Spirit Dream. It's improper and simply wrong. By continuing to perpetuate wrong in the wiki I will have to question your ethics and understanding of what a wiki is about. This is a place for proper and concise knowledge, please do not bring in personal opinions.The preceding comment was written by 125.212.124.180 16:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Please tell *what* is the best solution for you after abandoning it. "Touhou Hisoutensoku" is the essencial part of title. All eEditors know it, of course. But they have no idea to find it doesn't contain English words in title like previous works. If original Japanese name is adopted, the reformation of many many many many pages, and wiki users will be puzzled not to understand it. It remains until now. A similar problem is solved to translate it as "Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth" or "IotMaIofE". It's because editors have normally called them in English part of title. Not only editors of this wiki, but also most Touhou fans in English site. Even if this wiki abandons English name, other normal Touhou fans must continue to call them in English. Gap. So calling Hisoutensoku has also its problem.
Honestly speaking, I have been once confused to find the names called in English words or abbreviation. But why they call it like that isn't that they're official names, but that they're in English, easier to use.
It's not the problem of editing wiki, but that between traditional translation culture & modern transcription culture. At least the former is neither dead nor invalid.
Anyway, what I want to say is; The name of this archive is "Touhou Hisoutensoku". This is the official name of the th12.3 work, contains only Japanese words, and implies a storyline. Almost best translation is "Unthinkable Natural Law". It isn't official, People must know it. But it doesn't mean that they should call it strictly in official Japanese name when it seems uneasy to memorize in brain or input on the keyboard. --Masuo64 18:37, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I have to throw in support for UNL as well. It's short, succinct, not terribly off base, useful as an acronym, and already widely used as an English equivalent. Unless more opposition materializes, it's in all likeliness going to stay as "Unthinkable Natural Law" or "UNL" similar to "SWR", "PCB" or "EoSD". I personally wish it could be "HTS" but it ain't going to happen. : ) TheTrueBlue 03:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
A lie repeated 100 times doesn't make it the truth. The argument "already widely used as an English equivalent" is invalid because exactly this wiki tried to pass of Unthinkable Natural Law as an official title from the beginning an got that many (how many?) people to use it. If you continue to spread the use of this non-literal translation, you must make it clear to every reader of the page that this is only a fan-originated name. If you want to abbreviate it's name, you can do as tasofro and call it th123, or "HTS" as mentioned above (or not abbreviate it all all on the wiki, because wikis should always use full names).AoA 11:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
There are other sites like Gensokyo.org where use of UNL is already prevalent. Plus the precedent is for the English letter abbreviation to stand for English words, e.g. Perfect Cherry Blossom, Embodiment of Scarlet Devil. But I'm staying on the fence here, this isn't something I'll argue over, it's up to you guys here. TheTrueBlue 18:26, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
People use UNL because it's English, and it's a concise acronym. It's already clear that the name is fan-originated since the TL is in parentheses and the fact that the official title has similar status as its subtitle. The same logic is followed for 月のイナバと地上の因幡 (Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth). The only compelling argument I've heard that would warrant a change is that Hisou Tensoku is a name, but even then some people would still prefer plain English. To erase a TL would be unacceptable, though I have less a problem if you want to replace "Unthinkable Natural Law" on the front page with "Touhou Hisoutensoku", or on any other page referencing this game. I'd have "HTS" or "12.3" or "Hisoutensoku" redirect to the page, but I don't know how to do that.Kiefmaster99 18:47, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Redirect pages except 12.3 has been done. - KyoriAsh 19:01, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for dumm question, but HTS seems an acronym of Hisoutensoku; tensoku seems a picking up a first letter of each kanji while Hisou doesn't. Why is it HTS, not HSTS? Because it's a little long? --Masuo64 19:52, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Whatever acronym you guys decide on, just make sure you properly introduce it to the reader, rather than spew it around with no proper mention on the TH12.3 page like the first anon did.--Umhyuk 19:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Because it's group read Hisou Tensoku, not Hi Sou Ten Soku, it's "Faulty Perceptions" + "Rule of Heaven" or "Faulty Perceptions" + "Natural Laws" Hisou is one thing, but the Ten and Soku are each important enough to be one letter apiece (is my linguistic gut feeling anyway). And none of the previous English acryonyms have repeated letters, and HSTS seems more clumsy, and HTS does the job so why add another letter? Etc. Just my 2 cents. TheTrueBlue 19:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
PoDD, LLS, SSiB, PMiSS. jpp8 20:08, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Well the 2 that are games there are pre-EoSD, probably why they didn't occur to me. It's completely up to you guys. TheTrueBlue 20:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Hmm, sorry, my reason isn't at your level, TheTrueBlue. I can't see but: since Hisoutensoku is made to be combined with this, Ten + Soku (The Highest + Rule, or the Natural Law), Sou + Tensoku (Perceive Tensoku, or Perception of Tensoku), Hi + Soutensoku (Not Soutensoku, or No Soutensoku). So if we regard Tensoku as one word, we may shorten it for one alphabet of it. And I first think that it's a little more reasonable to see Hi + Sou + Tensoku and abbreviate HST, or to divide their letter for HSTS. And it's not essential, but "Faulty Perception" is less better than "Not Perceiving" (literally) or "No Perception" (meaning), I think, because Hisoutensoku can't think. "Faulty Perception" is "Gosoutensoku" (誤想天則). --Masuo64 06:57, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
非想天則, indeed hisou is not a compound I've ever seen, 非 being fault, error, mistake, done poorly, disadvantageous, unfavorable, I think "faulty" is not terribly off base. Is this your intuition as a native speaker of Japanese? I'm not aware if you are or not.
In reading from left to right, I first see "faulty perception", then of the "Tensoku". How about "Misconstrued Perceptions of the Natural Law/Rule of Heaven in the East" ? Or "Distorted Perceptions..." ? Or "Mistaken Perceptions..." ? Or "Dubious Perceptions..." ? Or "Apocryphal"? "Questionable" ? "Amaurotic" ? "Typhlotic" ? "Uncertain" ? "Flawed" ?
Anyway, I've already declared my neutrality in this issue, any of the terms above for the name and either HTS or HSTS is fine with me. TheTrueBlue 07:19, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Imperative Note September

The way the new information is presented right now looks incredibly ugly. I should point out that it was not some "random guy" who provided the translation, but a user named Reppu kiri, and not on "day-1 of the game's release", but on July 24, 2009. He stuck in the phrase "meaning Unthinkable Natural Law)" in an honest attempt to provide a translation, as per all the other game pages (meaning blah and blah). This was before it was revealed that Hisoutensoku refers to that giant. I am convinced that 87.69.208.2‎ cares more about his own agenda than the accuracy of this page. Don't get me started on how more wrong SWRS is. Kiefmaster99 13:51, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I didn't understand what IP 87.69.208 meant, so I edited like that. Your explanation enabled me to take his intend in my brain. And I don't know where UNL appeared first. Did the translation "UNL" really appear here first? If it appeared first here or if people consult this page to use the abbreviation "UNL", the source should be erased. But is it sure? (I'm not challenging you, Simply I don't know it.) --Masuo64 15:10, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
Well, the first instance of Unthinkable Natural Law appearing here was on that date by that person, or so the Revision History says. UNL showed up because people by nature abbreviate stuff. I'm pretty sure that person did the translation (as he contributes to TLs on the wiki), and that the first instance of UNL showing up was here. The TL wasn't challenged until after the game was released. As for the fixes I would make, I would prefer to follow the format as per IotMaIotE and any of the other pages, that is, get rid all acronyms, but keep "Unthinkable Natural Law" as a concise form. Also, why the hell was the literal translation removed? I'm reverting it. Kiefmaster99 16:11, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
Pocket-change-rambling: I find it strange that so many people really decided to cling to "UNL" from the starting gate. If we toss aside the issue of translation for a second: UNL isn't even consistent to the other games' conventions as it's a translation of the main game name and not the secondary "after the ~" name. And then, ZUN didn't provide us with an English secondary name like he has in the past. I do agree with your motion to treat this like works of similar naming manner and not use any acronyms officially, for the wiki at least; Posters using UNL and SWRS and SWR+ in normal conversation don't bother me. In the end acronyms were designed as a memory trick and are in themselves a kind of code that don't need to exactly refer to anything specific if the majority of people understand just what they're referring to.
About this translation dispute going on between anonymous vs. translators et.al. I quote T. Solamarle from MoF Music's talk page, "More correct translations should be preferred over incorrect "established" names." I guess you guys can decide it it's true in this case, because all that ever hits me from these discussions is the clinging to acronyms, and I'm not about to take a stab at translating this myself. Kudos to you translators, Reppu kiri included.
(By the way, when everyone does agree on a translation to the name, the link to it on the main page should probably be changed from saying "(Touhou Hisotensoku)". In fact, being consistent to how the Inaba example is worded on the main page, this would end up being "Chase the Enigma of the Superdreadnought Guignol"? Wow, this is a headache, nevermind.) Kuziko 05:42, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
Well in that case, if more correct translations should be preferred over established ones, we have a choice then whether to accept or reject "Unthinkable Natural Law" as an adequate translation. We could simply accept TheTrueBlue's TL as better, and declare UNL as obsolete and simply delete "Unthinkable Natural Law" altogether. The meaning of SWR was changed, and so two music titles were reworked to accommodate that change, even though they were used for a long while, so I have no objections to the deletion on those grounds. Now, 87.69.208.2 seems to have an objection with TheTrueBlue's TL and thinks it's "wrong way of conforming to the gods", but I don't think this takes the 'Samjna' into account. I will leave it up to TheTrueBlue to decide what to do with that opinion.
Besides, we can just leave acronym explanations on the Glossary or something. Kiefmaster99 23:57, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
Your reverting appears to be appropriate, Kiefmaster99. Ah, I assumed IP 87.69.208 would show up here, or give an explanation, but he has left nothing. I don't catch his/her intention.
At least, I can't help defending Reppu Kiri because Chinese-original nouns in Japanese base the central meaning on the last free morpheme very frequently, and the manner like reading "非想天則" is strange in everyday usage in Japan, except only in old Chinese text; they changed the pattern of syntax in the Middle Age as it fits them. Normally they would be likely to make the word "天則非想" if they wanted to make the word meaning "not having perception of the heaven's rule". The way of interpration is so restricted in usage that a native Japanese, I, didn't expect such a reading and meaning and he found the deep taste of representation, after watching Sanae's ending. --Masuo64 17:16, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
I'll put this here so non-Japanese speakers can get a feel for where the transliteration is coming from -
非想天則 Hi Sou Ten Soku
非 Hi = Fault, Error, Unfavorable, Un-, Non-, doing poorly
想 Sou = Thought, Idea, Conception, Samjna
天則 Tensoku = Natural Law, the "Rule of Heaven" where 則 soku = model on, follow, based on, modeled after
ですから天国や天神に逆らうなんてありません。
TheTrueBlue 00:48, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Random info/details

http://zepy.momotato.com/2009/08/03/details-on-touhou-hisoutensoku/ Someone want to try to work this into the article? -- 71.94.187.123 02:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, only four days left until the game is released. Oh, I can't wait to play Sanae. ^o^ Kirbyfan103 16:02, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Characters

Looks like Sanae, Cirno and Hong Meirin will be in the game. (source). Looks like Sanae is getting popular... — Poki#3 My Talk Page :o, 10:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps this would belong in a different section but does anyone want to tell me why CIRNO's silhouette is on the cover? I hope they aren't making her a major story character. --Selphos 21:35, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Weather

How do we know exactly if this game is going to have weather, like in SWR? Fairy Maid 16:57, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Let me see, where is the picture that appeared in Tasofro main page BEFORE Hisoutensoku been officially annouced... alright, here -- KyoriAsh 17:04, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Title

Perhaps the article should be renamed 東方非想天則 超弩級ギントルの謎を追え, in line with the rest of the articles having the subtitle in the title. Although I dunno if that is a subtitle or not. It should be mentioned in the article at any rate.

Well you can mentioned it, but not the article title (I mean Romanized link) -- KyoriAsh 03:39, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Expansion

I realize that the this game is an expansion of Touhou 10.5 Since it said that if the player that it, he/she can play those characters as well. -Dandan550 07:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

It is an expansion of Touhou 10.5, but also can be play as stand alone, just without those old characters. (Maybe I am wrong about it) - KyoriAsh 15:40, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Then we should add some info then. -dandan550

New patch

Tasofro released a new patch, but I don`t know what it does.

@ Unsigned comment, here is an English changelog. http://swr.mizuumi.net/index.php/Changelog TheTrueBlue 21:21, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

"-th" in 12.3th

The numbering of Hisoutensoku is 12.3th, which you would see some times: seeing it on the title logo of jacket graphics and title screen, and seeing it the moment the th123.exe is just starting. But I think that the suffix "-th" is postposed after the cardinal number unless the end of the number is read as "one", "two", and "three"; it only depends on the sound which suffix should be postposed of 4 — "-st", "-nd", "-rd", and "-th". So I've thought that "12.3rd" would be more appropriate if it could be fixed. Is this correct or not? --Masuo64 16:56, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

The only normal sounding reading is "Twelve Point Three", "Twelfeth Point Three", "Twelve Point Third" or any of those combinations are horribly unconventional and sound bizzare. If anything the acronym would simply be "Th12.3" for "Touhou 12.3". On the other hand, if the title screen says "12.3th" then it shouldn't offend the gods of English Grammar to show deference to the gods of Non-Linguistic Artistry by labeling it as "12.3th" in the few instances that would merit such a faithful rendition of the title. TheTrueBlue 20:51, September 26, 2009 (UTC)