Talk:Touhou Wiki

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Talks by major topics[edit]

Workspace[edit]

  • Frontpage mods - any proposed changes to frontpage can be made here
  • Development - Current status and future plans for the site, including feature requests for Mediawiki.

Discussions[edit]


Spell Card Info Template Revamp[edit]

As per topic, I will starting to revamp Spell Card Info, and this action may broke certain article's presentation. I will try to fix the pages as soon as possible - KyoriAsh (talk) 07:45, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

"Albums needing pages" instead of "Albums needing genres"[edit]

I've been trying to maintain a Current event release worklist and I think it's a more useful link to place in the "Articles Needing Attention" section of the front page than the current music/doujin albums link to Category: Genre Needed. Ycdtosa (talk) 17:08, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Spell card comments[edit]

Clarste made a good point about the spell card comments, something that's been on my mind as well. Why exactly are they there? They are not official (apart from a few games' commentaries), and don't really add anything other than someone trying to be funny. ☢ Quwanti 23:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Should we go through and delete them all, then? I didn't even realise those comments weren't from ZUN until I sat down and properly read the spell card page before... Biggest Dreamer (talk) 05:57, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
I've never actually read the spell card comments but had always assumed they were all official non-the-less, at present no spell card pages have comments due to an error in the template (going off the discord discussion). As an outside observer who never actually read any of the wiki's spell comments (I read them in game though), I think it needs to be much much clearer which comments are official vs unofficial or they should be moved to completely avoid any misconceptions, although outside of avoiding misconceptions I really don't see an issue with including unofficial spellcard comments. At present there's not much on these pages without the comments (just a picture and 4 short lines of text) so including something unofficial in my mind makes for a better reading experience, on the flip side since many games don't have official spell card comments I'd recommend changing the format of pages without comments altogether, one example could be using full sized spellcard images instead of half sized. Ycdtosa (talk) 13:37, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
In general, the spell cards can be a bit unclear since different phases of a spell card are not included, and neither are non-named cards (aside from those in StB, DS and ISC). Anyway, I think they should be removed all together, for the time being. One idea is to give some sort of explanation for the title, what it means and why it's significant for the character, but that could be a lot of work. ☢ Quwanti 15:12, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Concurring with their removal. Seemingly the only reason they've stood for so long is because of tradition, something that started over a decade ago just for flavour and happened to stick around. Drake Irving (talk) 12:46, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Spell Card Template new coding[edit]

Hi all, I would like some opinion about the new Spell Card Template that made use of some new CSS, which might broke some browser especially IE 11. Test Cases can be viewed from the link. Please provide opinion here if you feel that the template is not compatible with your browser - KyoriAsh (talk) 11:55, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

updated list of Fan Comics + Official Print Work[edit]

Hi Guys,

I made a list of fan cirles and some of the official printwork.

To be honest, I have no experience on wiki editing and I have no idea how this works.

So I put this list, that maybe somebody could edit this.

I hope, that I could be somehow useful.


Talk:Potential Comics

(I chose this page, because it wasn't used since 2009)


P.S.: I won't be active after this post. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by Austrian Pianist (talkcontribs) 16:53 (UTC), 9 April 2018

We *seriously* need a way to have people knowing what is going on[edit]

Anyone's who's been on here for a non-trivial amount of time should know by now that a major issue with maintaining the wiki, insofar as making any kind of "significant" changes, is that nobody ever knows what the heck is going on because there's no way to notify people when there's ongoing discussion and shit always hits the fan. I knew once people started talking about changing "Rei'sen" and asking for votes or objections, as well as e.g. the above requests for input about Spell Card templates and the user-written flavour comments, that basically nobody answers even if they would have useful input. It's awful for productivity and consensus.

There's the Discord and IRC at least, but any kind of external requirement is not great for this kind of purpose because some people simply do not use those services at all or minimally, and it shouldn't be a requirement for people to use, because then this implies only users that are part of these groups are privy to important notices, which I think is destructive. Having a clear and visible method for "issue tracking" as a part of the wiki itself is important because anyone with any stake in editing the wiki is already going to be a user. Put another way, the Discord and IRC as means of discussion should be 1) orthogonal to means of notification, and 2) supplementary to talk pages but entirely optional.

Stuff like Projects is kind of along the right lines, but those are more about long-term maintenance and still require active checking. Additionally there's the fact that you add the Notice to include articles as part of the Project and so on, whereas I'm thinking more that the issues shouldn't require any extra work on existing pages and are basically a way to point out "hey, there's a discussion happening over here relevant to [subscribed topic] that potentially needs input". Heck, this very talk page is one of the only ways people get notified about sweeping changes, if people even put them here. That's half of why I'm putting this here.

More generally, I do not think wholly article-based solutions are the way to go. We see attempts at structure pop up every now and then with stuff like Touhou Wiki:Translator Zone, Touhou Wiki:Touhou Daikaitei, portals, I dunno; the point is that there are a ton of them and nobody knows about them, nobody gets notified, nobody participates, and they die. Many of them are also for like, the same general purposes. It's literally insanity to keep using these kinds of arcane methods to try to get people on board to do things.

My suggestion here is first to use a MediaWiki tool like Notifications (aka Echo) to implement a way for people to actually receive notifications of some sort. The information surrounding Notifications is pretty fuzzy but apparently it should be standard already? In any case, many extensions see to make use of this feature for various productive purposes and it solves the problem of pushing versus checking (at least on the wiki level). The next step is to use one of these extensions like Newsletter (for example), to have a public and clear list of subjects that users might want to be notified about when there's relevant discussion. Maybe there are only a couple and are manually added by admin so as not to go overboard with compartmentalization. If a user subscribed to the subject (Translations, Names/Terminology, Music albums, Templates, etc), they would be able to create new issues that are basically links to the relevant talk page(s) that require input and discussion, and they'd also receive notifications for new issues added. Make it obvious how one would subscribe to these lists so nobody just happens to not realize it exists.

This way editors that are interested in certain subjects have ways to become notified of things they want to be notified about, and have a way to bring other interested parties to discuss things they probably wouldn't have otherwise noticed unless they stalk RecentChanges. I would particularly like to hear input from User:Mami about technical feasibility.

Drake Irving (talk) 07:33, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

This is a constant issue here. The Discord seems to have helped in establishing more rapid communication between groups. I already have a module that pushes wiki updates to a channel on the Discord; if there was a way to push things from the Discord here, in the sense of a constant and frequent event/news list it'd be pretty nice. I'm also open to discussing any other sort of notifications. Mami (talk) 23:14, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Is it possible to create an RSS feed for those who are members of each respective zone/project? Code Slasher (talk) 02:41, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Images not loading without JavaScript[edit]

It seems that most images on the wiki fail to load now with JavaScript disabled. I think it used to work fine not too long ago. Checked in both Mozilla and Chrome. Niektory (talk) 22:40, 21 August 2018 (UTC) Even with JS enabled they sometimes don't load. I have to refresh the page to see them. Niektory (talk) 13:13, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

I changed some of the settings for the image scaler. Let me know if you still see the issue. Mami (talk) 23:09, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, still the same, nothing seems to have changed. Niektory (talk) 16:04, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Translation Misedits[edit]

User_talk:Yamaxandu is continually undoing the correct translation of "その八重垣を" which is an has an officially translated source Kushinadahime and also removing my citations in favor of his fan translation. Please advise. (sorry of this is wrong area 'report issue' links here.ADCK (talk) 10:23, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

  • No Reply? In case i'm not making myself clear, I'm requesting Admin assistance. This Yamaxandu kid is itching for an edit war, I feel like i'm doing the right thing here by reporting the issue, I have verifiable citations proving my case. It should be a simple thing for an admin to say yay or nay? ADCK (talk) 12:00, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  • They didn’t respond because I am in the right ;) -Yamaxandu (talk) 12:17, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
I am not an admin, but if a vote helps, I think ADCK could be right, providing that there can be definitive evidence that the makers of that song were referring to that poem about her. Code Slasher (talk) 06:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

ToggleDisplay no longer working[edit]

I noticed that in articles like Dragon (God), there are some <toggledisplay> tags showing up in plain text. Someone also mentioned this over at Template_talk:Bug#Update for MediaWiki >= 1.18: Apparently, the ToggleDisplay extension was eliminated in MediaWiki 1.18 and was replaced with collapsible elements. I don't know what these were originally supposed to look like, so could someone help fix this? Thanks. Ahiijny (talk) 04:41, 28 December 2018 (UCT)

Fixed in that template and another now, though there's no easy search to find more templates, and the bare element is used by itself on way too many pages -- almost always unnecessarily. If you see those tags, 95% of the time, just delete them. -- Mazian (talk) 04:43, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Re:Colors/Colours (part 3)[edit]

After a few years of going back and forth on the spelling for the translation of "色" and in light of recent edits, I believe that it is time that we revisit this topic and its overlying issue: translation consistency. Based on this discussion, we essentially decided that "色" needed to be "colour", "coloured", etc. (a British English spelling) because that was how someone first translated it for one of Story of Eastern Wonderland's song titles in an English patch. That being said, this caused a weird discrepancy when someone translated "色" to "colored" (an American English spelling) in one of Imperishable Night's song titles. ZUN has used at least two variants of English over the years, such as "the Last Judgement" and "Colorful Path", making it difficult for us to establish a set spelling standard for future use (although we have tried via the aforementioned discussion). Despite this, because he has used "colored", I believe that we should unite all of the translations for at least "色" to "color", "colored", etc., including the translation used for that Story of Eastern Wonderland song title. Is there anyone here who believes that we should use "coloured" instead of "colored" at this time? Code Slasher (talk) 07:08, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Well, I don't think it's a pressing issue, but it would be nice to adapt a single spelling for consistency's sake. "Legacy reasons" are a pretty poor argument, even when it comes to something as incredibly minor as this. We primarily use "colored" just about everywhere else (see "Seven-Colored Puppeteer" or "The Ground's Color is Yellow"), so why not? That, and while I argue for not following him to a T all the time, I think ZUN has only used the "judgement" and "color" variants. VasteelXolotl (talk) 09:21, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
For the sake of consistency I really think it should be colored across the board considering that's how ZUN's used it. It doesn't really make sense for Reimu's theme to use "colored" but Marisa's theme to use "coloured"Megaman-Omega (talk) 03:29, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Music Titles and Potential Redundancies[edit]

Okay, so let's discuss this in a talk page that can be referenced in the future. There was some previous discussion here, but given that it was in a user's talk page, it didn't get much traffic. Basically, there have been edits made and reverted that removed the Japanese part of Music title due to being perceived as redundant. Examples of this include 世界の果て ~ World's End going from End of the World ~ World's End to just World's End and 少女綺想曲 ~ Capriccio going from Maiden's Capriccio ~ Capriccio to Maiden's Capriccio.

Personally, I echo what PK wrote in the previous discussion. A translation of a music title is just that, a translation. When we have a music title like JAPANESE ~ ENGLISH, ideally we translate the Japanese part and keep the rest of the music as intact as possible. If the title has two parts you keep both even if the meaning is the same so that anyone reading the title actually gets to know what both parts mean without having to wonder why someone removed the Japanese part instead of translating it. It's still part of the music title and thus should not be removed. I will note that the two examples above had added annotations with "lit. End of the World ~ World's End" when it was changed to World's End. Why not just make that annotated translation the actual translation if it is more correct? For 少女綺想曲 ~ Capriccio, the two "sides" so to speak are not even the same, one is "Maiden's Capriccio" and the other is just "Capriccio". Strange? Sure, but it is different and should not be perceived as redundant. --DTM (talk) 16:15, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Oh, I should've put this here in the first place. Oops.
Translations of titles should be kept as close as possible, yes. However, the titles were originally already laid out as [Japanese title] ~ [English translation] (kinda like how ZUN does it in Shuusou Gyoku, except in the cases I want to change it's in the titles themselves rather than omake files). You may be against giving those particular songs some sort of "exclusive treatment" since we generally keep everything, but these tautologies are introduced specifically due to translation, as it's now all in one language. Keeping both segments in these cases isn't necessarily more correct - to me it feels more overcorrect, trying to keep everything the same due to some unwritten rule. In addition, I don't know why some of them are cut off while others aren't. What makes World's End special compared to Doll of Misery that necessiates keeping both parts, other than trying to keep old, inconsistent translations for status quo reasons? Or Casket of Stars?
The annotations were added as a compromise between both ways, where the needless part is out of direct view, but it's there as a footnote in case someone really wants to know. I can't imagine anyone actually getting confused, since to care and look for the untranslated titles (and reasons for cutting things out), you would need to have some prior knowledge in the first place, and at that point it's not exactly hard to come to the conclusion without any guidance.
Besides, this isn't something like omitting a previously untranslated part of EoSD's 3rd stage theme - it's removing something that's the exact same and translated word for word without regard for that. To me it's just slight translation corrections. VasteelXolotl (talk) 16:56, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Honestly speaking, the argument of "if other songs had the Japanese section cut off when translating, why not this one?" sounds equally like an argument for properly translating them instead of "cutting out the redundant words". 装飾戦 ~ Decoration Battle into Decoration Battle, 霊天 ~ Spiritual Heaven into Spiritual Heaven, 禁断の魔法 ~ Forbidden Magic into Forbidden Magic and 悲しき人形 ~ Doll of Misery into Doll of Misery.
Music translations should be done to accurately translate what's there so people who don't know Japanese aren't left with "Huh? Why'd they just not bother translating the first part?"
Yes you may come into some redundancies, especially with earlier music (sometimes not even though, 少女綺想曲 and Capriccio are two completely different words and definitely should not be combined into one). But the point of this place is to accurately translate what's presented, not make arbitrary decisions of "this sounds redundant, so just cut it out". Changes to old translations should be done to improve or fix old mistranslations and errors, but something like changing Vessel of Stars ~ Casket of Star into Casket of Stars feels like less of an improvement of the original translation and more personal preference from feeling that "Vessel of Stars" and "Casket of Star" sound too similar to one another.Megaman-Omega (talk) 17:16, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Sure, a consistent approach would be the primary thing to consider over preferences in translation in this case. Still, I don't see why not. This does seem like a translation problem to me, since this really only becomes an "issue" when translated, and it's a result of trying to go for the highest possible accuracy over taking some liberties to make things seem more coherent to an English speaker. An issue in a few other places, actually. I should get on that sometime.
You could translate 器 in about a million ways just like any other character, but why would you, when you straight-up have the English translation right there? It's the same as other "redundant" songs, where I'm pretty sure the titles work in the way I laid out in my initial reply. Unless you want to propose translating the Japanese segments differently from the English counterparts in every song like that, in which case... well, I don't know what you could do with names like "眠れる恐怖" that wouldn't be stilted and make matters worse. I guess I can see the case for Maiden's Capriccio, though, since it's not literally the same. I've gone back on the Phantom Ensemble change for a similar reason.
As I've said before, I don't see how all this is a problem to people who don't know Japanese. In the first place, you have to learn of these changes and go out of your way to look up the music separately of the games to figure out just why they were made. I imagine reaching a conclusion by yourself at that point isn't hard. Buuuut you wouldn't particularly need to think/google much, since you'd have the annotations. Boom.
If anything, I imagine your average Joe would go "ah, makes sense, it's the same thing" instead of "why would they ditch this?!" Matter of factly, the current English patches for the PC-98 games cut out the unnecessary parts in music and stages (with one exception) and still have the full Japanese titles in the Music Room, and I've yet to see anyone raise an eyebrow. Kind of a moot argument, I think. VasteelXolotl (talk) 20:08, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
"Your average Joe" is a little bit subjective. Their opinion might change depending on how long they have been paying attention to the Touhou Project, especially the song titles. Furthermore, I side with DTM and Megaman-Omega on this one, as there are plenty of instances where the Japanese before the tilde is not easily equatable to the English on the other side. This even happens in areas that are not song titles, such as "東方神霊廟 ~ Ten Desires". Removing the translation on one side of the tilde dulls the clarification of the other. Code Slasher (talk) 04:28, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
But I'm not arguing for that? 神霊廟 is as far from Ten Desires as it can possibly be. Not once have I talked about game titles, which always have two distinct parts. I don't see what enlightening context will this hypothetical average Joe gain from seeing "Sleeping Terror" twice back to back. VasteelXolotl (talk) 10:26, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Would it be worthwhile removing the redundancies, but then noting in a footnote that the first half of the title is the Japanese version of the second half? That way people know that there was originally two halves, but they know why we didn't include it in the translation. After all, it's inherently impossible for these translated titles to serve their original function (source language ~ translated language) unless we do something like (translated title ~ romanisation), which wouldn't really be ideal. I agree that we gain nothing from seeing "Sleeping Terror" twice back to back. Biggest Dreamer (talk) 06:11, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
That was my proposed solution for those exact reasons. I had the footnotes up on the LLS page for a while, actually. I think this option would make the most sense.
I changed all the titles to their redundant versions for the time being, but I'm still not at all convinced, either. Especially since one person completely missed the point and talked about game titles for some reason. VasteelXolotl (talk) 07:48, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
I thought you did that on purpose. I think you are not understanding when there is an approximation versus an exact versus something entirely different. When you remove one side of a tilde for either an approximation or something entirely different, you are potentially removing clarification in a title. What you are suggesting only works when they are exactly the same and/or there is no better alternative for the translation of the original Japanese, such as with "Sleeping Terror". (In fact, there is a similar situation with some of the fan-made arrangements, like "UTAKATA -泡沫-" (both are "Foam").) Code Slasher (talk) 21:19, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
I wasn't gonna weigh in on this originally but I thought I might just to see if I can offer a little insight on what seems to be an endless back and forth discussion. First and foremost, this is a wiki. We primarily record all things canon to the series. We should, ideally, preserve the titles no matter how redundant because, in the end, ZUN wrote them that way. But, we have leeway with translation. We don't have to have "Sleeping Terror ~ Sleeping Terror". Why not "Dormant Horror ~ Sleeping Terror", for example? That's a valid translation and it gets rid of a ridiculous title repetition. Why not? Same thing was done for Phantom Band, Casket of Star, and Luna Dial ("月時計 ~ ルナ・ダイアル" is just the repetition of [moon]+[timepiece]). In order to remove hilarious redundancy, I propose that new translations be made. "End of the World ~ World's End" (世界の果て refers to the edge of the world; Pandemonium is canonically at the edge of Makai, according to Shiki) could be "Edge of Space ~ World's End" as 世界 can mean "realm" or "dimension" and Makai is, based on what little we know of it, no orb-shaped planet. These are just suggestions of course. If this idea is implemented we could always have a vote on titles. But, yeah. I believe that giving alternative translations to these titles is the perfect middle ground to outright removing them or keeping a ridiculously redundant title. Hopefully I don't sound too crazy making a suggestion like this. It's always an option.
Ennin (talk) 01:51, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
No, what you are saying is not too crazy. In fact, I was advocating for exactly that (not getting rid of approximations), and this is also what used to be the status quo on here. Code Slasher (talk) 21:49, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
And I brought this up because I wanted some translation leeway, so I don't have anything against it either. I'm not sure if that's doable for every title (not that I'm particularly going through all of them to check now, but what about 霊天, off the top of my head?), but it'll come down to individual songs, so it's a valid approach. VasteelXolotl (talk) 13:43, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
I think that keeping the text to the left of the tilde, rather than increasing clarification, actually decreases clarification (especially if unnecessary liberties are taken for the sake of making it sound different). In these sorts of titles, like many of the PC-98 ones, I think the text to the right actually sets out the boundaries through which we interpret the text to the left.
For an example, let's look at Yuuka's second theme: 幽夢 ~ Inanimate Dream. We currently have it as 'Faint Dream ~ Inanimate Dream'. I actually don't think 'Faint' is an adequate translation of 幽 in this instance, and I've come to that conclusion based on the text to the right of the tildre. Inanimate literally means 'lifeless'. Knowing this, we can now make use of the following meaning of 幽: ⑤あの世の。死者の。「─界・─霊」. In other words, we should interpret 幽 as meaning 'lifeless', and can actually translate 幽夢 as Inanimate Dream. It's another example of a title where the English translation is already given, and I don't think that 'Faint Dream' necessarily adds to our understanding of the title.
It's an entirely valid approach to offer up a different translation to the left of the tilde, but I think if we did that we'd be doing it for the purpose of adding flavour, rather than preserving titles or removing clarification. The clarification for these titles is provided by the English - In effect, ZUN is telling us how to interpret the Japanese text.
I strongly feel that the ideal solution is to keep the English translations to the right of the tilde and add in a footnote that the Japanese text means the same thing. We should identify the titles, like Inanimate Dream, where the English deepens our understanding of how the Japanese text should be interpreted and adopt that translation as the best one for the sake of clarity. It seems like the general mood is to use an alternative translation to the left, and that's fine too - I just think that the reasoning is off. We'd be taking that approach to add flavour and preserve the structure. After all, if "World's End" should be interpreted as "The End (destruction) of the World", then translating 世界の果て as "Edge of Space" is actually taking us further away from the intended meaning. For more discussion on how 世界の果て should be interpreted, please see this old discussion.
That's pretty much all I wanted to say, but I think there are pretty good arguments to go for both flavour text and going with the translation we've been given. Biggest Dreamer (talk) 09:01, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Re:The/A/[blank] [song title][edit]

(revisiting from the discussion from Archive 14)

This is driving me nuts. We seem to have all three of these scattered throughout the wiki. Should this be a user discretion thing, or should we standardize something? I for one have tried to improve the flow of song titles, add title emphasis, etc. to different song titles by using these filler words, but I would really like some other users' inputs on this. For example, we have The Road of the Misfortune God ~ Dark Road. Why did we not use A Road of the Misfortune God ~ Dark Road or Road of the Misfortune God ~ Dark Road? In addition, we have Eternal Transient Reign (like Eternal Shrine Maiden). Why did we not use The Eternal Transient Reign (like The Eternal Steam Engine) or An Eternal Transient Reign (like An Eternity More Transient than Scarlet)? Code Slasher (talk) 17:13, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

There's no possible overall standard, no more than you could interchange "a road" and "the road" in everyday English conversation - they're not the same. It'll always have to be down to the individual translations, based on translator best judgment. -- Mazian (talk) 17:05, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Gensokyo.org[edit]

Since the most relevant people to the site (or the people closest to them) are probably on this wiki, I'd like to say that I think it's about time someone renewed Gensokyo.org. Persona! (talk) 22:40, 3 December 2019 (UTC)