Talk:Touhou Wiki/Archive 11

en-US/en-GB/en-CA/etc. switch

I'm not 100% sure on what it was like on the debate between en-us and en-uk, but I'll give it a shot to see if it can be suggested: Is it possible to implement such switch onto the wiki similar to zh side? If there was a debate about spelling, shouldn't such switch be implemented? ～ Tony64 ^(Talk/Con.) 15:25, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Even if it were possible, I would be against it. There is no need to bother with language variations - if it bothers you that much, change the spelling in your head. The only articles where regional variation would matter are conventions or products sold in a particular English country. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 15:27, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Some word not only change spellings, but entirely different word, like Soccer/Football, Sorceror/Philosopher, etc. - KyoriAsh (talk) 15:53, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

It's not like British English speakers can't understand American English and vice versa. Keeping two copies of the same information which are updated separately is always a Very Bad Thing, and shouldn't be done unless absolutely necessary. (and gah, don't bring up "Sorcerer's Stone") --Prime32 (talk) 15:58, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

lol it just came to my mind if it was possible. thb, I did expect it to be possible, but I wouldn't expected it to be agreed with (like I said in the above). So aye, I'm going a bit OTT with all this, so let's tin tack it. :) ～ Tony64 ^(Talk/Con.) 16:06, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

The switch on the Chinese wiki is just doing an one-to-one (precisely not true but) transformation via character code, similar to changing upper case letter to lower case in the Latin alphabet (but more complex), so it can't be simply adapted on the English wiki. Technically speaking, I believe it's not impossible and I'll be fully fond of it if it was there, but if is nothing more than an if after all.--Doncot (talk) 16:24, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

For the third time now, not no but hell no. See here and here. A little bit of research would've given you the answer in a very specific, uncomplicated, easy to understand form. Momiji (talk) 23:45, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Coming Soon - A New Home

Attention all Touhou Wiki editors: Touhou Wiki will be in read-only mode on 2012-08-08, this Wednesday, for server migration. Migration is scheduled to start at approximately 18:00 PDT, at which point the wiki will go read-only. Users will be unable to make edits until the migration is complete, but the wiki will remain available for users to read in the meantime. When we finally switch the servers over, some users may still wind up at the old locked wiki. Do not panic, new DNS records take time to propagate, and it shouldn't take more than 24 hours. K (talk) 06:41, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Apologies for the sudden change, but the migration has been rescheduled for 2012-08-09, this Thursday. K (talk) 01:03, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Migration complete! If you can see this message, you're on the new wiki. K (talk) 21:00, 9 August 2012 (EDT)

Additionally, if you have any problems to report, check the Administrators page and leave a message on the appropriate administrator's talk page. Momiji, Suzuran, and I are able to field any server-related issues. Alternatively, there's always the the IRC channel, irc.ppirc.net #touhouwiki. K (talk) 21:09, 9 August 2012 (EDT)

Changing Touhou "Arrange/Arranges" to Touhou "Arrangement/Arrangements"

This is something that extends to the Western Touhou Fandom (abbreviated henceforth as WTF) as a whole, not just something I've seen on the wiki. It concerns the use of "arrange" when discussing fanmade Touhou music. My issue is less with the fact that this is grammatically incorrect, but that it's grammatically incorrect AND such a widespread problem. I propose we fix this by starting to use the correct word, "arrangement", and editing older articles about doujin circles to reflect this, and attempt to curb any new articles from using this old, incorrect term by incorporating this as some sort of guideline. OverCoat (talk) 06:34, 21 August 2012 (EDT)

I can see where you're coming from. To provide some explanation, "arrangement" is the musically correct term to use. "Arrange" comes from a translation of "アレンジ" (arenji), which is what the Japanese use to refer to musical arrangements. Of course, the Japanese love to abbreviate terms. In this case, アレンジ is actually an abbreviation of "arrangement". However, people initially translated it directly as "arrange", and that translation stuck. As mentioned earlier, from a musical point of view, the term "arrangement" is the correct term to use. As such, I support the use of "arrangement" over "arrange" and would encourage others to do the same. I Agree. K (talk) 08:16, 21 August 2012 (EDT)

The proper word to use is arrangement (n). Arrange is a verb, and its use as a noun is not supported by English dictionaries. I support renaming to arrangements. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 08:32, 21 August 2012 (EDT)

Thanks for the explanation on the origins of "arrange." I went ahead and used Fan Music as a sort of "test" because I'm a jerk, and people will be able to see exactly the kinds of changes I'm talking about. I'll wait for a bit more consensus before prodding to change more, last I saw there were article titles and also lists that use the word "arranges" as a noun.OverCoat (talk) 13:39, 22 August 2012 (EDT)

Lol, I thought you were using that term on purpose. If proper English is needed on the wiki, I'll support the renaming too.--Doncot (talk) 09:12, 21 August 2012 (EDT)

I don't know how often "arrange" is used as shorthand for "arrangement" in the fandom, but I do support using "arrangement" on the wiki because it makes sense from a musical and a grammatical point of view. Ibaraki Ibuki (talk) 19:56, 22 August 2012 (EDT)

Actually, I don't think K's theory of arenji (アレンジ) being an aberration of "arrangement" is true (at least this's the first time I've heard such a story). Not just "arrange" but taking in foreign word in their verb forms and turning them into nouns and start treating them like nouns is very common, because in Japanese, the majority of loan words can only be used via compound words that takes the "(noun)+suru" form (e.g. スタートする [start], プレイする[play], インストールする[install]). By goggling, you can see that フラワーアレンジメント ("flower arrangement") is more popular/relevant than フラワーアレンジ ("flower arrange"), which shows that this isn't a case of abbreviation-ness , but due to usage in grammatical terms in each language (meaning that unlike "arrange", the term "flower arrangement" was taken from English directly as a whole phrase). Which even reinforces more of the irrelevancy of the "arrange" in English.--Doncot (talk) 04:03, 23 August 2012 (EDT)

I wonder if I'm the only one that opposes this? We've never corrected the grammar of words in titles that are already in English (or "Engrish" for that matter). For example, "Demystify Feast (Arrange)" should be along the lines of "A Demystifying Feast (Arrangement)", however the word "Arrange" already exists in the title in romanized letters. There is a similar argument for "the Last Judgement". I oppose this change for instances that the word "Arrange" already exists, and therefore I oppose any changes from "Arrange" or "Arranges" to "Arrangement" or "Arrangements" for the sake of consistency. Code Slasher (talk) 17:42, 25 August 2012 (EDT)

I should clarify this further. In the music world, titles of music and albums are never formally translated, out of respect for the original composers. For example, Wagners "Der Ring des Nibelungen" is the actual title, even if it does translate to "The Ring of the Nibelung." If a Japanese composer calls his song "Demystify Feast (Arrange)" then we have to accept that title whether we like it or not. The usage of "arrange" I'm talking about refers to its use outside titles, where it is most definitely incorrect. This is not going to be a global correction, the only changes will be to the names of the category/template parameters, and encouraging users to use the grammatically correct "arrangement" in any future edits or additions to the wiki. I hope that clears things up for you.OverCoat (talk) 07:15, 26 August 2012 (EDT)

In the music world, titles of music and albums are never formally translated

Really? Because we call Der Ring des Nibelungen as "ニーベルングの指輪" in Japanese. And I'm pretty sure that most titles in non-Latin alphabet are translated when referred in English (e.g. «Щелкунчик» -> The Nutcracker).

If a Japanese composer calls his song "Demystify Feast (Arrange)" then we have to accept that title whether we like it or not

Actually, you can alternate the title if you don't like it in the translation, you can even call it the Semi-boss Theme (Arranged) or Th9.5 Track 2-20 if you wish. What you CAN'T do is that you can't change the music titles written in the "original title" section; other then that it really doesn't matter, because technically speaking, every other　fanmade alternative titles except the original is not officially correct (we call Beethoven's Symphony No. 5, Fate (運命) in Japanese if you haven't known). And the only reason we're not changing the title in the translations if they're in English, is because that's the obvious consensus everybody have reached even without discussing on this wiki (= the English Touhou community). Therefore I believe it is recommended that every editor should start using "arrangement(s)" instead of "arrange(s) [noun]" though out the wiki, and I believe Code Slasher's opposition isn't really an issue, because like I said irrelevant English used in the original title are exceptional to begin with.--Doncot (talk) 10:55, 26 August 2012 (EDT)

I would be worried that Touhou Wiki users viewing the song titles with "Arrange" in them might change them to "Arrangement" if they see "Arrangement" everywhere else on this wiki. Consistency is a major factor for any wiki wishing to appear professional, but maybe I'm worrying too much? Code Slasher (talk) 02:01, 29 August 2012 (EDT)

German Wiki Returns

The German wiki has been re-enabled on touhouwiki.net. We're still ironing out bugs and working on integrating it with the rest of the touhouwiki.net wiki family, so please pardon the dust. As it stands, the German wiki is not using its original user database and is instead using the same user database as the rest of touhouwiki.net. This unfortunately means that any accounts created on the previous site are currently unavailable and that edit information will be totally mismatched. K (talk) 12:30, 22 August 2012 (EDT)

Additionally, a few images on the German wiki share filenames with images on touhouwiki.net's main image repository, so manual action will have to be taken to bring them over. A list of potentially conflicting images can be found in my userspace. For these conflicts, I propose that the German copies be renamed from originalFileName to de_originalFilename and reuploaded to pool. After that, revisions will have to be made to the German articles to point them to the new images on pool. It's a fair bit of work, but it's the most straightforward way. K (talk) 12:33, 22 August 2012 (EDT)

Image reupload complete for noticeably different images. de is now using pool as its file repository. Old de images folder will remain available at images_de for the next week. K (talk) 08:56, 23 August 2012 (EDT)

Yousei Daisensou ~ Wiki Mainpage Restyling and Fairy Invasion

If you haven't noticed yet, parts of the mainpage now have some colors. Sefam and K have been refactoring the underlying html along with the new colors. And today we got some adorable images from Leo of Ask Udonge fame. Check the modifications and let us know what you think. Momiji (talk) 04:02, 28 August 2012 (EDT)

I approve of this change to the main page. Finally, some personality! OverCoat (talk) 04:10, 28 August 2012 (EDT)

I like it too. Pretty neat, very American if I should say. Going a bit off topic but also related, can't we replace the logo of Alice in the left right comer and Reimu icon in the "donate menu" as well? I thought they haven't cleared copyright issues. --Doncot (talk) 04:53, 28 August 2012 (EDT)

That is the plan, although we'll figure that out later when everyone is awake again. Momiji (talk) 04:58, 28 August 2012 (EDT)

While the Three Fairies seem to fit at their spot, no matter what, I still think any tengu would fit better for a news section. Though, since it is a fairy-styled frontpage, Aya or Hatate seems so random then. ☢ Quwanti 10:58, 28 August 2012 (EDT)

I somewhat like the fairies, but I think there will definitely be stronger opposition elsewhere. Brace yourself for criticism if it test rolls out.

The main criticisms I can think of is that they detract from the rest of the main page from style contrast. Color-intense pictures are being placed over lighter coloured headings, and there seems to be a conflict in mood as well. That, and the Daiyousei/Cirno image seems out of place - putting them above/behind the page requires the rest of the page to be bumped down (plus, this change was made for some reason), which is unnatural, unless that blank space is utilized for something else.

Regarding the new colour scheme, the red and yellow headers should be darker. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 12:44, 28 August 2012 (EDT)

But... what if I like the donate and main logos? There's only one thing I can say about the changes, though... FAIRIES! Code Slasher (talk) 01:47, 29 August 2012 (EDT)

P.S.: I love the Easter egg hidden on the main page. Code Slasher (talk) 02:03, 29 August 2012 (EDT)

The existing logo and donate images are nice, but I want something that's actually ours to use. Momiji (talk) 03:12, 29 August 2012 (EDT)

I rather disapprove of this. It really makes the page look a lot less professional looking. I mean its cute but I'm against it. Zelinko (talk) 20:39, 29 August 2012 (EDT)

The fairies add a bit of pizazz to the front page, but I can see where Zelinko is coming from. Perhaps we should take out Lily White, Cirno, and Daiyousei? Code Slasher (talk) 21:53, 29 August 2012 (EDT)

Is "professional-ness" really a matter here? Because we're not actually "professionals", and don't need to be like the plain and bland wikipedians making the wiki look like a "true encyclopedia". Regardless, the design itself should need to be considered fully though. For instance, in some environment (like iPhone), the fairies are hiding the text a little, and I think this should be fixed.--Doncot (talk) 08:33, 30 August 2012 (EDT)

It does to some extent, and perhaps "professionalism" isn't quite the best word to describe it. Touhou Wiki is not much of a forum - it's more of a library (think Patchouli). As a wiki, we do want to keep our image as a site focused on information first - so some academic is actually preferred, however bland or sterile it may seem. If we go over the extreme end of overusing images, we start losing credibility, much like what happened to you know where.

But, coming from the other side, I can see where they are coming from. Compared to other wikis, we have one of the most bland designs, with no real distinguishing feature that makes this a "Touhou" wiki. If we look at the front page (previously), the only features that make this "Touhou", are the game icons; and the Alice and the Reimu donate buttons, which are on the sidebar. The colour scheme vaguely connects to Alice. The other feature we have is the yin-yang icon. The yin-yang icon is an good example of adding "Touhou-ness" without being too overbearing. It's related, and clean and simple.

Let's compare what other fan wikis, such as Super Mario Wiki, Bulbapedia, and the Puella Magi Wiki, do. SMW has a more colourful front page, roundycorners, and two light backgrounds (one w/ text, another with mushrooms), which are in theme with the franchise itself. Bulbapedia has a theme that revolves around Pokemon 001, the wide use of the "bulb" logo, and use of roundycorners and circles. PWW doesn't have much other than its header background.

Touhou Wiki as of now doesn't have much of a 'personality'. We still have a LOT of design space and room - background, colour scheme, symbols, etc. The red-yellow-blue colour scheme is a nice touch, to match with our three primary categories, and Touhou has at least one trio that fits (other than the fairies, we also have Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya/Sanae). Expanded use of yin-yang is a possibility.

Others have mentioned that Cirno, Daiyousei, and Lily are a bit problematic, likely because Lily is too unrelated (when Aya would make more sense), and Cirno and Daiyousei for kind of just being there and gimmicky. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 11:24, 30 August 2012 (EDT)

As said in this section's title, the theme is Fairy Wars. Thus taking out only Lily and adding Aya would make the other ones (Suny, Luna, Star) become unrelated at the same time (technically Aya did appear in FW but...).--Doncot (talk) 11:49, 30 August 2012 (EDT)

I rolled out some fixes with Momiji yesterday to accommodate smartphone users and people with small resolutions(1024 wide), the fix also applies when you minimize and squish the screen, so that the fairies do not hide the text anymore. Part of the reason why fairies are on the frontpage rather than Reimu/Marisa/Aya/Company is because we want to use them in the sidebar/header. If Reimu is in the header, she appears on every page of the wiki, while the fairies only appear on one page. Also, another reason, albeit weak, is that the 3 fairies of light fit the color theme, and I can come full circle with all the fairy characters in Touhou (Maid fairy, zombie fairy etc... can't really be considered characters, because they are generic enemies), I don't want people complaining because I put Sakuya for the blue color (That was the original idea, Reimu is red, Marisa is yellow, and Sakuya is blue) instead of Sanae or the opposite. --Sefam (talk) 12:21, 30 August 2012 (EDT)

I like it. I don't see the problem with Lily. She's trumpeting the news, like she would spring's arrival. I have no real issue with how it reflects on us, either. More leeway can be given to fanwikis and it shows some personality rather than coming across as another serious, stuffy wiki. Although Kiefmaster has a point about how we could look at how to use other page elements.
But there's no reason why this little changes our concern of being an information first wiki. As always, what matters are articles and showing our professionalism through those, as long as we don't start detracting away from articles with images on those pages, too.
As for other little changes, a minor one would be to maybe change the colors of the game/music/book infoboxes to match the Three Fairies' colors. although I'm not sure everyone would go for that.
Also, to match themes, might we get Leo to do the new logo, as well? If that isn't already happening or you have something else in mind, I mean. Plus, Alice is great and all, but it might be an opportunity to replace her with Aya or something. Or rotating logos, so a new Alice, Aya, Marisa, etc. might all show up and get their share, but that might be asking too much. UTW 01:12, 3 September 2012 (EDT)

Well, overall reception to the changes seem to be warm for the most part, with few minor complaints, so good work. I am willing to back the game/music/book infobox colour change, but would like to get a feel of how they would look first. As for logos, I would prefer sticking with Alice, and non-rotating, only because she was there first. Each other language wiki has their own logo which helps give their identity, and English is no different. Why Alice was chosen is beyond me, but I can only guess it was because she was the most English/Western-like character and an appropriate fanpic existed. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 21:14, 3 September 2012 (EDT)

MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition

I don't know if it's just me, but I remember this appearing in 'My preferences' before the server migration, but now it doesn't. Anything to fix this? ～ Tony64 ^(Talk/Con.) 11:00, 30 August 2012 (EDT)

Actually, it’s similar to bug with sidebar. Try http://en.touhouwiki.net/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition&action=purge --Coyc (talk) 03:41, 31 August 2012 (EDT)