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♥★♦ 02:47, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The "phrase" that every single translator just refuses to translate

Part 9.5: Partial Solution?

This part is not for debating the exact meaning of ... whatever ZUN said about abilities. I only want to discuss here how we are going to work in whatever translation we come up with into the wiki as a whole.
Obviously, there should be an explanation on the abilities page behind how the "awkward" translation reflects ZUN's intentions, etc., etc. My main concern is how we use this info on the character pages, which are highly visible to many people who expect this wiki to use good English. For now, I'd like to suggest that we limit our usage of the new translation to the official profiles section (which of course ZUN himself wrote and thus would make sense there). Once people are more comfortable with it, we can use it on other parts of the character pages. Ibaraki Ibuki 02:14, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I think it should be treated the same way as character titles (read the alternate proposal above), since the abilities are very similar to character titles; in fact, you could call them "additional character titles."--としあき 02:17, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Alright. Speaking as a user of the wiki I need to toss my two cents in. I apologize from my bluntness, but your current path is terrible. I went to the Youmu page and immediately wondered if someone who didn't have English as their first language had 'fixed' it without the regular's knowledge. If it weren't for hints from the other Touhou sites I go to I wouldn't have been able to piece together what was being done, and why. If I had come here as a new user I'd have assumed the people translating for the wiki were straight out incompetent. The longer you keep these bad translations up, the more credibility you will lose. And yes the translations are bad. I looked back to the start at what you're aiming to convey, and it just doesn't do it.
As for the idea of keeping the powers in Japanese this is even worse. There's already too many untranslated Japanese words. This is an English wiki. Untranslated sections are once again going to be considered signs of incompetence by viewers. If you can find a good, solid translation that covers all the Japanese nuances that'd be awesome, more power to you. But if not it is INFINITELY superior to have a close English translation with a translation note then putting up a poorly worded translation or just leaving the Japanese.--IcedFairy 04:54, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
I have been making several suggestions, but it must be emphasized that making demands to go back to the completely wrong "ability to" is not productive. It would be better to leave the abilities blank than to have something wrong. I don't think it is proper to blame me for everything―some of those who previously complained about this didn't seem to have any respect for what it actually meant, which was quite frustrating when I was trying to come up with suggestions on how it could be improved.
Anyways, perhaps one possibility is "Enough Power to ~" like "Enough Power to Manipulate Boundaries." Does this seem sensible enough?--としあき 05:16, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
So the change has been made to Reimu Hakurei. Does this seem sensible enough?--としあき 05:21, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Tosiaki, give it up. You've been making the same suggestion for 2 days and nobody likes it. Nobody liked your idea the first time you said it. Nobody liked it the 10th time you said it. Nobody likes it now. It's stilted and unsuitable English and any writer will tell you that. So knock it off. Your suggestion doesn't even make sense given that Touhou's powers are not arranged in tiers and thus enough power to do X means nothing. Unnamed Giant Catfish 05:24, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
As I said previously, Touhou's powers are entirely about "power levels," or "tiers," as you call them, because that is what 程度の能力 means. And also, please be a little more civil―I do not think that this newest suggestion is "stilted and unsuitable English."--としあき 05:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Understand it doesn't matter how "correct" your understanding of a translation is if you can't properly convey it. The average user will not sit there and puzzle out what you are trying to say, they will assume you are incompetent. And since the "Ability to:" is not wrong, merely incomplete, it is a preferable placeholder. Insistence on always perfectly conveying every nuance of the original work is foolishness.
As to your suggestion I just read it and it is stilted English and fails to convey what you said you wanted to convey in the first place. "Enough power to listen to ten conversations at the same time," is a very poor representation of Miko for example. It's better then what you've got everywhere else, but not by much.---IcedFairy 05:32, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
This issue has been going on for a long time, and it's having a negative effect on viewers. This is really something that needs to be finalized before being used across the site. As enthusiastic as you may be to settle this translation issue once and for all (and believe me, we all are too), this really wasn't handled well at all. Anyway, this is now kind've a thing on MoTK, so perhaps we'll have even more input on this. For the time being, please leave the level modifiers off the abilities. Thanks. Momiji 05:35, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
As of right now, I am getting a sense that my suggestion was attacked simply because I was the one making it.--としあき 05:43, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Not exactly.
Solamarle suggested 'about enough power to ~'. Is this fine? Momiji 05:48, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Er, no offense, but I don't know you from Adam. However, I do fear that we have fundamentally opposed ideas on how to convey information to people in a translation. Which is perhaps understandable. However, I feel my views better represent the viewing public, which is why I dredged up my ID from before the site move and commented.
As to your suggesting Momiji, that seems better grammatically, but has worse connotations. It suggests that they can't quite achieve that ability. I suggested "Signature Ability" on MotK, but I'll understand if this is considered too far from an 'accurate' translation.--IcedFairy 05:51, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Momiji: Solamarle's suggestion is about the same as my own suggestion, but yes, I definitely think it is fine, so I would favor it.
Icedfairy: I am not exactly sure if you even understand what the phrase means. The Japanese interpretation is here, which says, "it is a word that shows the degree/extent of strength of an ability." Of course, Nicovideo Encyclopedia cannot speak for what is canon in Touhou, but it can at least speak for providing definitions Japanese words themselves, so I think that using this source in this case should be reasonable. In any case, this definition should be kept in mind before suggesting any translation.--としあき 05:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Also, the connotation that "they can't quite achieve that ability" is exactly the correct kind of connotation. There are several characters who can't achieve their ability (most notably Kogasa, and maybe Remilia), so interpreting their abilities as "not definite" is the correct way to go.--としあき 06:02, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Understand, I suggested it as a replacement for the top blurb, not a 100% accurate translation. A nitpicky translation could be moved to the center of an article for those who want in depth knowledge.
As to your comment on connotation, are you suggesting Reimu isn't quite able to fly? That ceased being the case a while back.--IcedFairy 06:11, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
It is just that your criticisms of the new translations seem to come from a misunderstanding of what the phrase means, which is why I pointed that out. It is not a "nitpicky translation"―simply the one that conveys the correct meaning, which should be what is most important. "Ability: surprising humans" is not a good suggestion if it is incorrect and not canon, no matter how "nice sounding" it is.
As for my own impression on the connotation, it is a connotation that they might not be able to do what is described, although they could. The word "about" makes it vague enough, which it should be.--としあき 06:18, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
That's right, conveying something close to the correct meaning is important. And that's what you aren't doing. You aren't conveying it. I understand what you want to say. You want to say "The character has some undetermined level of proficiency in the following field, in addition to probably possessing other powers that are not listed here." But that isn't what you end up saying. If you say "About enough power to fly" that means the character can't fly. And that too is wrong. It would be better to give a less detailed version, then explain in detail later, then to aim for details and then contradict yourself in the explanation.--IcedFairy 06:32, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Well, I would to elaborate on why it is bad to say "ability: --." If I did not know as much about the abilities as I do now, I would not object to it, but after reading around and understanding more about how the abilities are thought of, I now understand why "ability: surprising humans" cannot possibly be considered correct. It is not simply "less detailed"―it is actually outright wrong. Anything that suggests that powers are absolute or definitive is not a good way to go.
Anyways, to improve on the suggestion that Momiji gave from Solamarle: "Around Enough Power to Fly in the Air." Does that make more sense, then?--としあき 06:41, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Old topic, just stick back Abilities to and everyone happy - KyoriAsh 06:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I would prefer Solamarle's suggestion that was posted earlier.--としあき 07:05, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty much entirely agreeing with Iced on this. Kinda related, I'm noting some things like Mystia's species has been changed from night sparrow to the Japanese word for night sparrow. Does this really serve any useful purpose other than to make it that much harder for an English speaker to know what she is and create a disconnect from the translation patch? I'm not really seeing how yosuzume makes up for that by conveying any additional information, given the word is literally night sparrow. Obfuscating information while presenting it seems kinda...pointless? -Purvis

The source and hopefully solution to recent issues.

It seems there is a fundamental disconnect growing between the people translating and the people reading, and that is a problem.  Now some of this is undoubtedly the base fear of change, which should be ignored.  But a lot of it is because in the attempt to match the Japanese precisely, you have created comprehension barriers between you and us, your audience.  Worse you've started to do so at the point of entry, which will only hurt the perception of the wiki as a useful tool.

I want you all to try to think as a new user.  One who's only heard about Touhou from fanworks, if that.  They don't understand a word of Japanese.  They've only got a murky idea about what's official and what isn't.  And most importantly, they don't have a clue if you translators are any good at your job.  There are a lot of sites with second rate translation out there, and until they see your translations in action, they don't know your skill.

Now keeping all these things in mind, lets pretend they're looking up LoL stuff and click on the link on Youmu's Ghostblade to end up at on Youmu's profile.  They see the name and a pronunciation guide, that's good.  They see the official artwork, that's understandable.  Then they get the character title in kanji with no solid indication it's got a mouse over.  They're going to just ignore this.  You've just lost a chance to explain information because of a refusal to translate.  However this isn't a game killer.  They don't know they missed anything.

Continuing on they get to "Half-human half-yuurei."  And here is where they're going to hit a roadblock.  They're going to look it up on google or wikipedia, go "Oh it means ghost, why didn't they say that," and put the entire site into the "Japanophile translator" bin.  Worst of all, they'll never understand the reason you changed it, making it an exercise in futility.

And then they hit "Ability to the extent of handling sword techniques" and the wiki has lost all credibility in their eyes.  They aren't going to click the link explaining that change because it's not well marked and by this point they don't care.  They are going to assume you meant "Ability to" and that you suck at translating, and you're going to lose both the meaning and your credibility.  These understandable attempts to be precise have created barriers to the casual user, and when the casual user hits a barrier at the start they quit.  

Does that mean you should throw out the attempts to be precise?  No.  However at the entry level your number one priority needs to be clarity, because new users can't tell the difference between awkward precision and bad work.  And honestly you don't need to be one hundred percent perfect at the entry level.  You have a wiki, with infinite space.  You can put in translation notes, complex debates on the meaning of words, heck you can link hundred page long peer reviewed dissertations on the sociopolitical implications of ZUN's word choice.  And if you present these to the reader after you've hooked them with a quality presentation up front, they will be interested and read them!  But you have to lure in the reader first, because if you present someone with a link to wikipedia when they want a one word answer, it doesn't matter how much more correct your translation is.  The reader won't care.

Thus I suggest the following.  First, an easily accessed set of minimum standards for works at points of entry. For example character profiles should be simple and direct, even at the cost of detail. They're the introduction to the museum, not the exhibit. Similar rules should be placed on other pages depending on how they are used by the populace.  Secondly, a distinct noticeable mark for when there's a translator note attached to a word, so people know where to go for a more in depth look at matters.  This lowers the barrier of entry to the next level of understanding, increasing the number of people who are willing to research more.  With these two alterations, you can keep a high (if not perfect) level of precision without driving away users who don't understand Japanese or the internal wiki politics.--IcedFairy 22:02, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure if I fully understood your suggestion, but would this be something quite close enough to it?
  1. Use simple translations in the character infobox so that a first-time visitor and any average wiki user doesn't get confused with the diction (i.e. use "ghost/phantom" instead of "yuurei/bourei", and "ability/capability to ~" instead of "ability to the extent of ~" in the infobox)
  2. In translations of character profiles, use the in-depth translations and add some sort of translator's note underneath the profiles so that the viewer can understand why it was translated that way.
Thanks for the suggestion by the way. Hopefully this can clear up the consternation that's still going on. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 22:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
That's very close. To explain a little further, I think all the wiki sections should have a guideline reminding people of their purpose. That way if there's an issue over wording, people know what the default should be while it's worked out. Your examples for 1 are great. Profiles I think don't need to be as concise so you can put together a good English explanation, though if that does turn out to be impossible more notes are good. The important part is setting standards to remind people why sections exist, allowing them to translate for the proper audience.
As for the translation notes, I actually would encourage making them more prominent and frequent. If say the symbol for a translation note was say an orange dot, placing them up top in the intro section wouldn't decrease from readability, but would allow people easy access to the information when they want it. I do like a lot of the minor detail work, it just needs to be preceded by the simple versions. So for example the ghost/phantom bit in the intro would have the translator note mark right next to it. Then when a reader has free time (or just is interested), they can quickly go to the appropriate note and learn more.--IcedFairy 22:57, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Alright! Understood your idea here. In fact, the translation notes seem to be a good idea: I think I've seen them being used often in certain articles (I don't remember which ones they were exactly... they were from some music articles) but what if we start using them in normal articles as well? Just like those reference sections. It's also a system that's utilized in this other Korean wiki, and it makes things much easier and simpler for average visitors. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 23:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
My main concern is misconceptions created by stating the ability too precisely. I am not saying that there needs to be an exact translation for the phrase or anything;,but for the infobox, to say that the ability is precisely what is stated is going to cause misconception. I am willing to accept anything along the lines of "approximate ability to ~" or something similar in meaning.--としあき 23:15, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
To give a concrete example let's say you open up Reimu's profile to edit. It has the following reminders.
Intro section- Make everything easy to understand. Translate everything possible. Keep it short and link to better explanations later. Assume this is people's first look at Touhou and the wiki.
Profiles- Make sure it's readable, but don't be afraid to add words to explain. Try to get ZUNs points across if at all possible.
Spellcards- Um... don't go overboard? (I've got no idea what rules there are for good spellcard translation.
And there'd be a nice little button at the bottom to put a translator note mark easily. Or the editors would grab a good character to use as a base. Either way.
This is just an example. I'm sure other users can give good ideas of what they want, and better translators can put them into simple instructions, but that's the base of the idea.--IcedFairy 00:07, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I don't know if it's possible that we can have a reminder appear like that when we're editing pages. Maybe you're referring to the guidelines of editing? The intro section/infobox could be simplistic as suggested so far, and make the article gradually increase in depth as you progress down the article: We won't have to put the overly complicated stuff at the top for people who visit the wiki for simple and basic information rather than in-depth material, so that is probably what you're looking for. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 00:20, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
If that's the place to put it then yeah, that should work. And the pyramid structure is probably best as you say. Simple at the top, with more and more details as you dig into the article.--IcedFairy 00:45, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Largely concur, but as DS4 pointed out, I would rather have this as established guidelines. Oh, and before we put this into the guidelines, let's have a consensus on clear concise points.
With spell card names, they have to follow the same rule as names for music. We can't have more than one name, and they can't be overly awkward. Some parts will be inevitably lost in TL (e.g. Fire Water Wood Metal Earth Sign not only represents the elements, but Tues through Sat), and may need to be supplanted with TL notes. The spell card table does have links to the game entries which have TL notes. - Kiefmaster99 01:25, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
This all seems very reasonable to me. I noticed though that the song titles on the character page are all in kanji now. Is this changing back to English with kanji backup like the Spellcard entries are currently?--IcedFairy 02:24, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
That's more of an attempt to save work on our part. Music titles are used much more frequently throughout the wiki, in particular for doujin music, so rather than having to change a million entries during a TL change, we instead use the neverchanging Japanese title with changes to SongSource.js when needed.
An exception could be made for the infobox. - Kiefmaster99 07:25, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Alright, that makes sense to me. Would it be best to incorporate these ideas into the first post or create a new topic?--IcedFairy 18:16, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I've spoken with some of the people who frequent different sections of the wiki then I do, and they've pointed out another related issue. One that I understand is more complex, but needs to be considered. To use his example...
A new fan wants to find arrangements of Bloom Nobly, Cherry Blossoms of Sumizome. Since they can't remember the name offhand and only remember it as "Yuyuko's theme," they go to the music page for Perfect Cherry Blossom and go to Yuyuko's section. There they copy "Bloom Nobly, Ink-Black Cherry Blossoms" and put it into a YouTube search. At this point, two things can happen: either they find a highly decreased number of results than what they would find using the already-established title, thereby being misinformed to believe that Yuyuko's theme doesn't have many arrangements, or they find out that the actual title is "Bloom Nobly, Cherry Blossoms of Sumizome" and put the wiki at fault for spreading misinformation.
So yeah. I know some of the songs have been translated poorly in the past, but if casual users can't use the wiki to hunt down stuff on youtube, it's the wiki that's going to get the blame. I don't know if it's better to make the correct translation a note, or show old translations to the side or what. But new users need to be able to hunt down the music they want via wiki information.--IcedFairy 18:16, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
For me extra reason to make this page extra visible to the public (though, not on my user page but on "Touhou Wiki:". Maybe there can also be said that the previous translation is still used at older video's, pages etc. ☢ Quwanti 18:36, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I was about to mention that page actually. Anyways, yes, the user will probably get less results, but Google/Youtube does a pretty good job of still pulling in relevant titles. Also, the reader will have to learn the hard way that what is on the wiki is no mistake - the same phenomenon exists with game patches. - Kiefmaster99 18:52, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
That's dangerous thinking. I assure you, if you try to make a reader learn the hard way, they won't learn, and you'll be the one blamed for the confusion caused, even if your are right. Perhaps especially if you are right. It's a much better idea to compromise with a mistake and let the users learn the truth easily.--IcedFairy 20:52, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm not sure if the relevant titles might work for those songs that had their translations change significantly. Maybe it'll work for "Septette for the Dead Princess", but probably not for "Bloom Nobly, Ink-Black Cherry Blossoms" or "Dream Palace Great Mausoleum". The translation changes could work here; we could use it to denote that a song title has multiple variants that were used before the translation changes, and the average user can search for these different variants to get the song he/she wants. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 20:59, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I was also about to say that page too. If it's going to be implemented, the link to it should be on the main page (like the recent facebook edit Kyo did). Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 19:06, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Personally, I think that it's most important to make the old title as up-front and noticeable as possible. A page listing translation changes is all well and good for someone who actually cares enough to sift through it, but the average, casual viewer isn't going to bother with dealing with something like that. Maybe it would be best to leave the old title as the one people see first, then add any 'corrected' titles as notes.
I was the one who made the suggestion that IcedFairy quoted, and my recommendation had been to put a rule in place that disallows any modifications to song titles that have been unchanged for a year or so. That would give enough time for things like Ruse Rain/Loose Rain to be fixed and would avoid the Sun Worship of Gnosis/Solar Sect of Mystic Wisdom problem, and adding a note saying what the 'proper' translation should be is still viable. Squidtentacle 19:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Disallowing such changes is a bad idea. I was initially against the change to "Bloom Nobly, Ink-Black Cherry Blossoms" but now I know why it is a better title, and it was a later translation change.
Also, I am not sure what others think, but I do not think "acknowledging past mistakes" is something that this wiki needs to do. We do not, for example, acknowledge EUNL or other variants. If a translation mistake is common on YouTube and such, we can note it in a "fanon" section at the bottom, but not mixed in with the canon.--としあき 22:52, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure if using the UNL is a good comparison in this case. The UNL translation correction was done before the name was really established like Bloom Nobly was. Plus, I feel kinda iffy about calling one translation canon or official over another unless ZUN would come by and state what it should translate as. Firestorm29
However, if it doesn't translate correctly, then it isn't official. Continued usages of incorrect translations can only be considered fanon, since they are not based on what the title actually is.--としあき 00:12, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
If there's a past precedent that needs to be corrected, future users need to know about the change in order to access the past content which will then become unavailable with the name change. Put it in a spoiler box or a mouseover, make it an alternative title, or have a translation history, etc. Just pushing the dirt under the rug while ignoring the ramifications is irresponsible. Pufferfish101 00:16, 20 April 2012 (UTC)