Talk:Touhou Wiki/Editor Corner

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♥★♦ 02:47, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The "phrase" that every single translator just refuses to translate[edit]

Part 9.5: Partial Solution?[edit]

This part is not for debating the exact meaning of ... whatever ZUN said about abilities. I only want to discuss here how we are going to work in whatever translation we come up with into the wiki as a whole.
Obviously, there should be an explanation on the abilities page behind how the "awkward" translation reflects ZUN's intentions, etc., etc. My main concern is how we use this info on the character pages, which are highly visible to many people who expect this wiki to use good English. For now, I'd like to suggest that we limit our usage of the new translation to the official profiles section (which of course ZUN himself wrote and thus would make sense there). Once people are more comfortable with it, we can use it on other parts of the character pages. Ibaraki Ibuki 02:14, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I think it should be treated the same way as character titles (read the alternate proposal above), since the abilities are very similar to character titles; in fact, you could call them "additional character titles."--としあき 02:17, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Alright. Speaking as a user of the wiki I need to toss my two cents in. I apologize from my bluntness, but your current path is terrible. I went to the Youmu page and immediately wondered if someone who didn't have English as their first language had 'fixed' it without the regular's knowledge. If it weren't for hints from the other Touhou sites I go to I wouldn't have been able to piece together what was being done, and why. If I had come here as a new user I'd have assumed the people translating for the wiki were straight out incompetent. The longer you keep these bad translations up, the more credibility you will lose. And yes the translations are bad. I looked back to the start at what you're aiming to convey, and it just doesn't do it.
As for the idea of keeping the powers in Japanese this is even worse. There's already too many untranslated Japanese words. This is an English wiki. Untranslated sections are once again going to be considered signs of incompetence by viewers. If you can find a good, solid translation that covers all the Japanese nuances that'd be awesome, more power to you. But if not it is INFINITELY superior to have a close English translation with a translation note then putting up a poorly worded translation or just leaving the Japanese.--IcedFairy 04:54, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
I have been making several suggestions, but it must be emphasized that making demands to go back to the completely wrong "ability to" is not productive. It would be better to leave the abilities blank than to have something wrong. I don't think it is proper to blame me for everything―some of those who previously complained about this didn't seem to have any respect for what it actually meant, which was quite frustrating when I was trying to come up with suggestions on how it could be improved.
Anyways, perhaps one possibility is "Enough Power to ~" like "Enough Power to Manipulate Boundaries." Does this seem sensible enough?--としあき 05:16, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
So the change has been made to Reimu Hakurei. Does this seem sensible enough?--としあき 05:21, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Tosiaki, give it up. You've been making the same suggestion for 2 days and nobody likes it. Nobody liked your idea the first time you said it. Nobody liked it the 10th time you said it. Nobody likes it now. It's stilted and unsuitable English and any writer will tell you that. So knock it off. Your suggestion doesn't even make sense given that Touhou's powers are not arranged in tiers and thus enough power to do X means nothing. Unnamed Giant Catfish 05:24, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
As I said previously, Touhou's powers are entirely about "power levels," or "tiers," as you call them, because that is what 程度の能力 means. And also, please be a little more civil―I do not think that this newest suggestion is "stilted and unsuitable English."--としあき 05:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Understand it doesn't matter how "correct" your understanding of a translation is if you can't properly convey it. The average user will not sit there and puzzle out what you are trying to say, they will assume you are incompetent. And since the "Ability to:" is not wrong, merely incomplete, it is a preferable placeholder. Insistence on always perfectly conveying every nuance of the original work is foolishness.
As to your suggestion I just read it and it is stilted English and fails to convey what you said you wanted to convey in the first place. "Enough power to listen to ten conversations at the same time," is a very poor representation of Miko for example. It's better then what you've got everywhere else, but not by much.---IcedFairy 05:32, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
This issue has been going on for a long time, and it's having a negative effect on viewers. This is really something that needs to be finalized before being used across the site. As enthusiastic as you may be to settle this translation issue once and for all (and believe me, we all are too), this really wasn't handled well at all. Anyway, this is now kind've a thing on MoTK, so perhaps we'll have even more input on this. For the time being, please leave the level modifiers off the abilities. Thanks. Momiji 05:35, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
As of right now, I am getting a sense that my suggestion was attacked simply because I was the one making it.--としあき 05:43, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Not exactly.
Solamarle suggested 'about enough power to ~'. Is this fine? Momiji 05:48, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Er, no offense, but I don't know you from Adam. However, I do fear that we have fundamentally opposed ideas on how to convey information to people in a translation. Which is perhaps understandable. However, I feel my views better represent the viewing public, which is why I dredged up my ID from before the site move and commented.
As to your suggesting Momiji, that seems better grammatically, but has worse connotations. It suggests that they can't quite achieve that ability. I suggested "Signature Ability" on MotK, but I'll understand if this is considered too far from an 'accurate' translation.--IcedFairy 05:51, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Momiji: Solamarle's suggestion is about the same as my own suggestion, but yes, I definitely think it is fine, so I would favor it.
Icedfairy: I am not exactly sure if you even understand what the phrase means. The Japanese interpretation is here, which says, "it is a word that shows the degree/extent of strength of an ability." Of course, Nicovideo Encyclopedia cannot speak for what is canon in Touhou, but it can at least speak for providing definitions Japanese words themselves, so I think that using this source in this case should be reasonable. In any case, this definition should be kept in mind before suggesting any translation.--としあき 05:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Also, the connotation that "they can't quite achieve that ability" is exactly the correct kind of connotation. There are several characters who can't achieve their ability (most notably Kogasa, and maybe Remilia), so interpreting their abilities as "not definite" is the correct way to go.--としあき 06:02, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Understand, I suggested it as a replacement for the top blurb, not a 100% accurate translation. A nitpicky translation could be moved to the center of an article for those who want in depth knowledge.
As to your comment on connotation, are you suggesting Reimu isn't quite able to fly? That ceased being the case a while back.--IcedFairy 06:11, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
It is just that your criticisms of the new translations seem to come from a misunderstanding of what the phrase means, which is why I pointed that out. It is not a "nitpicky translation"―simply the one that conveys the correct meaning, which should be what is most important. "Ability: surprising humans" is not a good suggestion if it is incorrect and not canon, no matter how "nice sounding" it is.
As for my own impression on the connotation, it is a connotation that they might not be able to do what is described, although they could. The word "about" makes it vague enough, which it should be.--としあき 06:18, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
That's right, conveying something close to the correct meaning is important. And that's what you aren't doing. You aren't conveying it. I understand what you want to say. You want to say "The character has some undetermined level of proficiency in the following field, in addition to probably possessing other powers that are not listed here." But that isn't what you end up saying. If you say "About enough power to fly" that means the character can't fly. And that too is wrong. It would be better to give a less detailed version, then explain in detail later, then to aim for details and then contradict yourself in the explanation.--IcedFairy 06:32, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Well, I would to elaborate on why it is bad to say "ability: --." If I did not know as much about the abilities as I do now, I would not object to it, but after reading around and understanding more about how the abilities are thought of, I now understand why "ability: surprising humans" cannot possibly be considered correct. It is not simply "less detailed"―it is actually outright wrong. Anything that suggests that powers are absolute or definitive is not a good way to go.
Anyways, to improve on the suggestion that Momiji gave from Solamarle: "Around Enough Power to Fly in the Air." Does that make more sense, then?--としあき 06:41, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
No, that's terrible. Abilities are not power levels, as we already repeatedly told you. KennyMan666 21:46, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Such arguments should be based on what the Japanese phrase actually means, not personal preferences of "I don't like power levels."--としあき 21:57, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
It's not "I don't like power levels". It's "I don't like impossibly awkward English phrasing that also doesn't make any sense". "Around enough power to fly" is not an ability. "Able to fly" is an ability. KennyMan666 08:45, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Old topic, just stick back Abilities to and everyone happy - KyoriAsh 06:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I would prefer Solamarle's suggestion that was posted earlier.--としあき 07:05, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty much entirely agreeing with Iced on this. Kinda related, I'm noting some things like Mystia's species has been changed from night sparrow to the Japanese word for night sparrow. Does this really serve any useful purpose other than to make it that much harder for an English speaker to know what she is and create a disconnect from the translation patch? I'm not really seeing how yosuzume makes up for that by conveying any additional information, given the word is literally night sparrow. Obfuscating information while presenting it seems kinda...pointless? -Purvis

Agreed with the above as well. Someone had changed her species back to "Night Sparrow", and included a link to a brief page about the species, including the Japanese name. That's how it should be done. As for the "Ability to the extent" debacle, if Marisa's "ability" is "Ability to the extent of using magic", then it's gone too far. All it's doing is using twice the amount of words needed to explain something. - Sect

I haven't been around in quite a while since last providing my input, and I tried to be accommodating last time, but I want to express my agreement with Iced on this subject. The current translation is outlandish and flatly improper English. It would be much wiser to simply return to "ability to X," which is perfectly understandable and at least a good representation of what is intended, and simply elaborate on the particulars of ZUN's phrasing elsewhere. As is, the "ability to the extent of X" phrasing is nothing but an impediment to the function of the wiki, and impenetrable to newcomers. In addition, the aforementioned instance of trying to use "yosuzume" instead of night sparrow, and the decision to start using "bourei" and "yuurei" instead of ghost and phantom are also distinct problems. These words convey absolutely nothing to the English speaking community, and will do nothing but confuse new readers of the wiki, or worse yet, convince them that the quality of the translations on this website is subpar. This should be rectified as quickly as possible. - Patchwork 00:16, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I feel I should give some suggestions to this discussion. I understand the point of trying to convey a sense of vagueness of abilities. We could possibly change "Ability to" to "Known to". Something along the lines of "Known to use magic", "Known to fly", "Known to manipulate nuclear fusion" might be a way to go. This says that sometime in the character's history the character has done X. The reader can then "fill in the blanks" at what those abilities imply based on feats that have actually happened, as well as not absolutely saying they have those abilities at present. I understand this is a liberal translation, and it may have been suggested before. At the very least I hope to provide another alternative. NanoStar 00:35, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Okay. "Ability to the extent of" looks insanely clunky and dumb, especially on the Abilities page when it's written on each and every one. Not to mention the redundancy of "Ability: Ability to the extent of". If we really feel the need to render の程度の能力 in english every time, may I suggest the far easier to digest "Capable of"? Easy to read, makes sense, probably even a more accurate translation. KennyMan666 19:49, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Due to a disagreement on IRC about whether or not these abilities are definitive or not, and whether Remilia can definitely manipulate fate or not, and other questions about what the phrase essentially means.

In any case, there you have it. At a fundamental level of "what this should be interpreted as," it should not be interpreted as "they have this ability." In any case, to those who I have just recently spoke with on IRC, I don't think we really need to simplify this when it comes to official profiles and Perfect Memento and Symposium. Those are translations, and should be translated for what they mean, even if there was an error in the meaning (in which case we would make a note that it is an error, or put a "[sic]" next to it). For the character pages, it should be enough to begin the character pages with "she has an ability to manipulate boundaries."--としあき 21:14, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what philosophy you adhere to but it's like the polar opposite of Occam's Razor. At the fundamental level, when a character in her official game profile is stated as having an ability, we shouldn't be interpreting that as anything beyond "she has this ability". ZUN wrote that Remilia's ability is manipulating fate, and as such we know that Remilia's ability is that she is capable of manipulating fate. We don't need to bring any fanwank about the irregular way ZUN chose to write it to the wiki. It's not about simplifying - it's about making some goddamned sense.

So, yeah, "Ability: Capable of X". Does anyone except for T-boy here have any objections to that way of phrasing it? It seems like the most elegant solution. KennyMan666 08:45, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I also think "Capable of" is the best solution. It's perspicuous and holds the same meaning as "Ability to the extent of" and "Enough power to". Nox 16:14, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Almost stole it from my mouth... What I was thinking of was "Capability to X". A couple of examples: "Capability to Fly in the Air", "Capability to Pass Through Walls", "Capability to Manipulate Distance", "Capability to Manipulate Water", "Capability to Manipulate Density". Definition of Capability.

After thinking about it a bit, I support Anatole serial's (but, please sign your username) suggestion of "capability to" since it makes sense and is ambiguous enough in meaning to capture its original spirit. I propose a slight admentment if is adopted: to add the indefinite article "a" in front of it, since DarkSlime did point out that these are abilities rather than general statements about their capability. So "A Capability to Fly in the Air" should be good enough.--としあき 17:04, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

The "a" is unnecessary. And it sounds just as wierd as "Ability to the extent of", in my opinion. Nox 17:49, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
I think this phrase is used with reasonable frequency in English that it isn't that weird, though (as can be confirmed through Google search, for example, in usages such as this one). The "a" is there so that it is actually talking about an ability rather than capabilities in general, which is why I think it makes more sense.--としあき 18:10, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, "A capability to" sounds bad. I still think "Capable of" looks better than "Capability to", as well. They have the same meaning, so we should use the one that sounds better. Especially when you write "Ability: Capability to X", it looks weird. KennyMan666 18:44, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
After a talk on IRC, I think we have come to a solution that people can agree on. "The Capability to." What does everyone else think of this?--としあき 18:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
I support "Capable of verb-ing" followed by "Capability to". As others have mentioned, using an article sounds off. The aforementioned example doesn't convince me as the context is too different. - Kiefmaster99 20:09, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
It has been pointed out in IRC that it would be weird if it was "Ability: Capability." However, it could work if there was a "the" between the "ability" and "capability," which is why it would be better. A reason why a noun is preferred is because these are abilities that they possess.--としあき 20:28, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

http://poll.pollcode.com/cry6_result?v I posted this poll on a forum earlier. Not that many votes, but I think it's worth a look. Also, don't forget that their abilities are something they use. Nox 21:43, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Did you leave out one option, "The Capability to"? Also, in the official profiles, it is always stated as "she has..." but even if you were to suppose that they were things that they use, it would make sense to say "use the capability to manipulate fate," not "use capable of manipulating fate."--としあき 22:03, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
How many votes did your other two suggestions get? I doubt an unnecessary article would have made much difference. And in none of Remilia's profiles is "she has" written to describe her abilities. Please don't make stuff up and then claim it to be a fact. Lastly, none of those two sentences make much sense, and I don't understand why anyone would ever write such odd sentences in the first place. Nox 23:07, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
In Imperishable Night, it is 運命を操る程度の能力を持つ, meaning "she has..." Anyways, I think that one point of confusion is whether or not we are talking about what should go in the infobox. I think there are quite a few people who agree that ability can simply not be listed in the infobox, and that the usage of this phrase should be reserved for translations such as in the official profiles as well as in Perfect Memento and in Symposium. Here is a link to the relevant discussion.--としあき 23:18, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

On that note, I would like to point out that a character's abilities should be described in the supposed ability details section before the removal of the text from the infobox, if that's where we're indeed going. Furthermore, since it doesn't seem that the discussion has left MotK much, I'd like to ask for some consensus that this is what we're going to be doing, before we tread on any more toes.

To summarize the suggested changes:
1. Create a section to detail the character's abilities; how they work, how they're applied, instances of it being used, the current limits of the ability, etc. (I would suggest a section 1.3, since it would be below the indents in the contents box and thus be more visible, as well as being right above the Story section)
2. Remove the ability phrase from the side infobox, and instead try to visually direct the viewer to the paragraph in the character page.
3. Apply the short phrase to the instances where it's used as an actual translation. (linking to the character's ability section from these would be ideal)

Are there any other steps needed to be taken? Drake Irving 00:09, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

1. I have no problems with a character subsection on Abilities and such.
2. I prefer the information to stay. It's that one thing that ZUN assigns to every character, so it only makes sense for it to belong in the infobox. It's like the character titles (e.g. Shrine Maiden of Paradise). Whether it's repeated in the article or not is irrelevant. Whether I can live with the removal depends on why it's being removed. If it's for trimming the infobox, sure. If it's because of the awkwardness of the phrasing, then I cannot support it.
3. Sure. But we need to agree on what translation to adopt, and I think it's best to at least hold an informal poll on the wiki on which phrase to adopt so we know where we're heading. - Kiefmaster99 00:24, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
I think we should first agree on taking it out of the character infobox before agreeing on what phrase to adopt. I think that taking out of the infobox changes the question of what it should translate it as, since if we are going to just limit it to translations, then we don't have to worry about making it a short enough phrase to fit into an infobox.--としあき 06:41, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Whelp, I've stayed out of this because it was a question of translation. But when it became of question of picking a term, I decided to throw in my vote.
"The Capability to" sounds like the best viable option; I don't know much about Japanese, so hopefully this wasn't a big departure from it (we wouldn't want a case of neither serving the sides and disappointing both).
So we need a consensus; I feel that this definition is best and I hope the community is inclined to agree. ♥★♦ 07:44, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Guess I should mention it here as well; now while it isn't a big issue at all, as it stands, the title of "Ability:" might cause a small problem. When people see "Ability:" they are expecting something solid, or rather the actual ability in question, after that. Using "The capability to" (among most phrases) might create a link between the two, as if the character's ability is the capability, which sounds a tad odd. I was also thinking of "Possesses the capability to X"; while it is a bit longer, it doesn't seem overbearing or wordy, and links "the capability" to something other than the "Ability:" title. This is sort of what Tosiaki mentioned when he was talking about 持つ, since when there's a sentence with を持つ (possesses/has) at the end, that's connecting it to "the capability". If you start the phrase with "Possesses", then from my point of view, it might eliminate the imagined link between "Ability:" and the text that you might otherwise have with "Ability: The capability to X". Just a thought, not sure if other people see the same. Drake Irving 00:59, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
I like "The Capability to~" better. It sounds better than the current "Ability to the extent~" w/o spending long time reading it. Yeah, "Ability : The Capability~" would sound odd, but since ZUN has it like this in the official profiles, I guess it's OK. Hopefully with this new suggestion, this can end this long debate. I say go ahead and change the translation. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 09:25, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

The source and hopefully solution to recent issues.[edit]

It seems there is a fundamental disconnect growing between the people translating and the people reading, and that is a problem.  Now some of this is undoubtedly the base fear of change, which should be ignored.  But a lot of it is because in the attempt to match the Japanese precisely, you have created comprehension barriers between you and us, your audience.  Worse you've started to do so at the point of entry, which will only hurt the perception of the wiki as a useful tool.

I want you all to try to think as a new user.  One who's only heard about Touhou from fanworks, if that.  They don't understand a word of Japanese.  They've only got a murky idea about what's official and what isn't.  And most importantly, they don't have a clue if you translators are any good at your job.  There are a lot of sites with second rate translation out there, and until they see your translations in action, they don't know your skill.

Now keeping all these things in mind, lets pretend they're looking up LoL stuff and click on the link on Youmu's Ghostblade to end up at on Youmu's profile.  They see the name and a pronunciation guide, that's good.  They see the official artwork, that's understandable.  Then they get the character title in kanji with no solid indication it's got a mouse over.  They're going to just ignore this.  You've just lost a chance to explain information because of a refusal to translate.  However this isn't a game killer.  They don't know they missed anything.

Continuing on they get to "Half-human half-yuurei."  And here is where they're going to hit a roadblock.  They're going to look it up on google or wikipedia, go "Oh it means ghost, why didn't they say that," and put the entire site into the "Japanophile translator" bin.  Worst of all, they'll never understand the reason you changed it, making it an exercise in futility.

And then they hit "Ability to the extent of handling sword techniques" and the wiki has lost all credibility in their eyes.  They aren't going to click the link explaining that change because it's not well marked and by this point they don't care.  They are going to assume you meant "Ability to" and that you suck at translating, and you're going to lose both the meaning and your credibility.  These understandable attempts to be precise have created barriers to the casual user, and when the casual user hits a barrier at the start they quit.  

Does that mean you should throw out the attempts to be precise?  No.  However at the entry level your number one priority needs to be clarity, because new users can't tell the difference between awkward precision and bad work.  And honestly you don't need to be one hundred percent perfect at the entry level.  You have a wiki, with infinite space.  You can put in translation notes, complex debates on the meaning of words, heck you can link hundred page long peer reviewed dissertations on the sociopolitical implications of ZUN's word choice.  And if you present these to the reader after you've hooked them with a quality presentation up front, they will be interested and read them!  But you have to lure in the reader first, because if you present someone with a link to wikipedia when they want a one word answer, it doesn't matter how much more correct your translation is.  The reader won't care.

Thus I suggest the following.  First, an easily accessed set of minimum standards for works at points of entry. For example character profiles should be simple and direct, even at the cost of detail. They're the introduction to the museum, not the exhibit. Similar rules should be placed on other pages depending on how they are used by the populace.  Secondly, a distinct noticeable mark for when there's a translator note attached to a word, so people know where to go for a more in depth look at matters.  This lowers the barrier of entry to the next level of understanding, increasing the number of people who are willing to research more.  With these two alterations, you can keep a high (if not perfect) level of precision without driving away users who don't understand Japanese or the internal wiki politics.--IcedFairy 22:02, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure if I fully understood your suggestion, but would this be something quite close enough to it?
  1. Use simple translations in the character infobox so that a first-time visitor and any average wiki user doesn't get confused with the diction (i.e. use "ghost/phantom" instead of "yuurei/bourei", and "ability/capability to ~" instead of "ability to the extent of ~" in the infobox)
  2. In translations of character profiles, use the in-depth translations and add some sort of translator's note underneath the profiles so that the viewer can understand why it was translated that way.
Thanks for the suggestion by the way. Hopefully this can clear up the consternation that's still going on. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 22:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
That's very close. To explain a little further, I think all the wiki sections should have a guideline reminding people of their purpose. That way if there's an issue over wording, people know what the default should be while it's worked out. Your examples for 1 are great. Profiles I think don't need to be as concise so you can put together a good English explanation, though if that does turn out to be impossible more notes are good. The important part is setting standards to remind people why sections exist, allowing them to translate for the proper audience.
As for the translation notes, I actually would encourage making them more prominent and frequent. If say the symbol for a translation note was say an orange dot, placing them up top in the intro section wouldn't decrease from readability, but would allow people easy access to the information when they want it. I do like a lot of the minor detail work, it just needs to be preceded by the simple versions. So for example the ghost/phantom bit in the intro would have the translator note mark right next to it. Then when a reader has free time (or just is interested), they can quickly go to the appropriate note and learn more.--IcedFairy 22:57, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Alright! Understood your idea here. In fact, the translation notes seem to be a good idea: I think I've seen them being used often in certain articles (I don't remember which ones they were exactly... they were from some music articles) but what if we start using them in normal articles as well? Just like those reference sections. It's also a system that's utilized in this other Korean wiki, and it makes things much easier and simpler for average visitors. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 23:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
My main concern is misconceptions created by stating the ability too precisely. I am not saying that there needs to be an exact translation for the phrase or anything;,but for the infobox, to say that the ability is precisely what is stated is going to cause misconception. I am willing to accept anything along the lines of "approximate ability to ~" or something similar in meaning.--としあき 23:15, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
To give a concrete example let's say you open up Reimu's profile to edit. It has the following reminders.
Intro section- Make everything easy to understand. Translate everything possible. Keep it short and link to better explanations later. Assume this is people's first look at Touhou and the wiki.
Profiles- Make sure it's readable, but don't be afraid to add words to explain. Try to get ZUNs points across if at all possible.
Spellcards- Um... don't go overboard? (I've got no idea what rules there are for good spellcard translation.
And there'd be a nice little button at the bottom to put a translator note mark easily. Or the editors would grab a good character to use as a base. Either way.
This is just an example. I'm sure other users can give good ideas of what they want, and better translators can put them into simple instructions, but that's the base of the idea.--IcedFairy 00:07, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I don't know if it's possible that we can have a reminder appear like that when we're editing pages. Maybe you're referring to the guidelines of editing? The intro section/infobox could be simplistic as suggested so far, and make the article gradually increase in depth as you progress down the article: We won't have to put the overly complicated stuff at the top for people who visit the wiki for simple and basic information rather than in-depth material, so that is probably what you're looking for. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 00:20, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
If that's the place to put it then yeah, that should work. And the pyramid structure is probably best as you say. Simple at the top, with more and more details as you dig into the article.--IcedFairy 00:45, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Largely concur, but as DS4 pointed out, I would rather have this as established guidelines. Oh, and before we put this into the guidelines, let's have a consensus on clear concise points.
With spell card names, they have to follow the same rule as names for music. We can't have more than one name, and they can't be overly awkward. Some parts will be inevitably lost in TL (e.g. Fire Water Wood Metal Earth Sign not only represents the elements, but Tues through Sat), and may need to be supplanted with TL notes. The spell card table does have links to the game entries which have TL notes. - Kiefmaster99 01:25, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
This all seems very reasonable to me. I noticed though that the song titles on the character page are all in kanji now. Is this changing back to English with kanji backup like the Spellcard entries are currently?--IcedFairy 02:24, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
That's more of an attempt to save work on our part. Music titles are used much more frequently throughout the wiki, in particular for doujin music, so rather than having to change a million entries during a TL change, we instead use the neverchanging Japanese title with changes to SongSource.js when needed.
An exception could be made for the infobox. - Kiefmaster99 07:25, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Alright, that makes sense to me. Would it be best to incorporate these ideas into the first post or create a new topic?--IcedFairy 18:16, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I've spoken with some of the people who frequent different sections of the wiki then I do, and they've pointed out another related issue. One that I understand is more complex, but needs to be considered. To use his example...
A new fan wants to find arrangements of Bloom Nobly, Cherry Blossoms of Sumizome. Since they can't remember the name offhand and only remember it as "Yuyuko's theme," they go to the music page for Perfect Cherry Blossom and go to Yuyuko's section. There they copy "Bloom Nobly, Ink-Black Cherry Blossoms" and put it into a YouTube search. At this point, two things can happen: either they find a highly decreased number of results than what they would find using the already-established title, thereby being misinformed to believe that Yuyuko's theme doesn't have many arrangements, or they find out that the actual title is "Bloom Nobly, Cherry Blossoms of Sumizome" and put the wiki at fault for spreading misinformation.
So yeah. I know some of the songs have been translated poorly in the past, but if casual users can't use the wiki to hunt down stuff on youtube, it's the wiki that's going to get the blame. I don't know if it's better to make the correct translation a note, or show old translations to the side or what. But new users need to be able to hunt down the music they want via wiki information.--IcedFairy 18:16, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
For me extra reason to make this page extra visible to the public (though, not on my user page but on "Touhou Wiki:". Maybe there can also be said that the previous translation is still used at older video's, pages etc. ☢ Quwanti 18:36, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I was about to mention that page actually. Anyways, yes, the user will probably get less results, but Google/Youtube does a pretty good job of still pulling in relevant titles. Also, the reader will have to learn the hard way that what is on the wiki is no mistake - the same phenomenon exists with game patches. - Kiefmaster99 18:52, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
That's dangerous thinking. I assure you, if you try to make a reader learn the hard way, they won't learn, and you'll be the one blamed for the confusion caused, even if your are right. Perhaps especially if you are right. It's a much better idea to compromise with a mistake and let the users learn the truth easily.--IcedFairy 20:52, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm not sure if the relevant titles might work for those songs that had their translations change significantly. Maybe it'll work for "Septette for the Dead Princess", but probably not for "Bloom Nobly, Ink-Black Cherry Blossoms" or "Dream Palace Great Mausoleum". The translation changes could work here; we could use it to denote that a song title has multiple variants that were used before the translation changes, and the average user can search for these different variants to get the song he/she wants. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 20:59, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Well, the problem is that there's no easy way to convey that the wiki is "correct", and it makes little sense to state that fact on every page. Every Touhou fan does learn eventually that, barring perceived vandalism, the wiki is the general authoritative source. For entry-level users, they can try their hand at searching the name, and when they do, they'll be redirected to the current title. They'll be able to connect the dots and either interpret the TL as either "alternative" or "old".
As for song searching, I tried Bloom Nobly and that's not a problem. It is however a problem for Great Mausoleum right now. - Kiefmaster99 01:01, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I was also about to say that page too. If it's going to be implemented, the link to it should be on the main page (like the recent facebook edit Kyo did). Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 19:06, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Personally, I think that it's most important to make the old title as up-front and noticeable as possible. A page listing translation changes is all well and good for someone who actually cares enough to sift through it, but the average, casual viewer isn't going to bother with dealing with something like that. Maybe it would be best to leave the old title as the one people see first, then add any 'corrected' titles as notes.
I was the one who made the suggestion that IcedFairy quoted, and my recommendation had been to put a rule in place that disallows any modifications to song titles that have been unchanged for a year or so. That would give enough time for things like Ruse Rain/Loose Rain to be fixed and would avoid the Sun Worship of Gnosis/Solar Sect of Mystic Wisdom problem, and adding a note saying what the 'proper' translation should be is still viable. Squidtentacle 19:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Disallowing such changes is a bad idea. I was initially against the change to "Bloom Nobly, Ink-Black Cherry Blossoms" but now I know why it is a better title, and it was a later translation change.
Also, I am not sure what others think, but I do not think "acknowledging past mistakes" is something that this wiki needs to do. We do not, for example, acknowledge EUNL or other variants. If a translation mistake is common on YouTube and such, we can note it in a "fanon" section at the bottom, but not mixed in with the canon.--としあき 22:52, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure if using the UNL is a good comparison in this case. The UNL translation correction was done before the name was really established like Bloom Nobly was. Plus, I feel kinda iffy about calling one translation canon or official over another unless ZUN would come by and state what it should translate as. Firestorm29
However, if it doesn't translate correctly, then it isn't official. Continued usages of incorrect translations can only be considered fanon, since they are not based on what the title actually is.--としあき 00:12, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
If there's a past precedent that needs to be corrected, future users need to know about the change in order to access the past content which will then become unavailable with the name change. Put it in a spoiler box or a mouseover, make it an alternative title, or have a translation history, etc. Just pushing the dirt under the rug while ignoring the ramifications is irresponsible. Pufferfish101 00:16, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Then one thing that can be done is to put the list of translation changes very prominently on the main page, with a "click here first if you are new to Touhou Project" kind of thing in large font.--としあき 00:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
The name that is in common usage must be available at a glance with no links required. Anything else will prevent the wiki from doing it's job of leading new users to Touhou materials and information. How to show the more correct translations without confusion should be the question.--IcedFairy 00:29, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I agree with the above, moreso because many of these discussion we've had don't make themselves very apparent at first. Remember how I had to get lucky to find the reasoning the ghost and song changes? Also would like to try and restate, I'm fairly sure no matter what sort of translation comes out, it is all really fanwork in the end, so stamping one translation as official over another is really not good form in my opinion. Firestorm29
Technically, almost all English translations are unofficial to Touhou. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 01:16, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
There are some translation variations that mean pretty much the same thing. However, there are other old translations that got the meaning completely wrong, like Tewi's theme or Cirno's theme. In those cases, it would be correct to say that there is a difference in how official they are.--としあき 01:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Making something more accurate doesn't make it any less or more official, or else why isn't this wiki an official Touhou wiki, or why don't we have official English patches, or official Touhou forums? Firestorm29
There is no difference in how 'official translations are with regards to ZUN'. We do however endorse some over others, and this is perceived as being 'official with regards to the English fanbase', as this wiki is seen as the de facto authoritative source. Translating is a fandom phenomenon, so yes, it'd fit under "Fanon". - Kiefmaster99 01:46, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I'd just like to avoid the idea of calling something official over another when it comes to different fan-based things, I've seen it happen too many times where "official" turns into "official headache". Firestorm29
I would say that making it more accurate does make it more official. It is not that the translation itself is official, but at least that the meaning itself is official. It would be wrong, for example, to say that the old translation of Tewi's theme or Cirno's theme is "equal" in any way to the present one.--としあき 02:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm not proposing one translation be equal to another, one's going to become preferred. Fact is, I have never seen the word official used when it comes to fan-based stuff without it starting in-fights. Firestorm29
First and foremost, we have to display the correct translation first. It's very awkward to display the old translation first, followed by the more correct one, as we will have users continue to use the first name, I assure you. What we can do is put a note on that music's page stating that the TL was recently changed, and phase it out after a year. Keeping a long-term archive on some other place will also help.
The fact is that, given enough time, usage with shift to the new one. Yes, there will still be remnants of the old translation strewn about on Youtube or whatever, and is worse the longer the song title has been in existence. References to UNL still exist. The point is that there will be sufficient content to the average fan under the new title, and if I really wanted to dig up works under the old title, then I'd have to do some more research on old titles.
Second, I think putting a 1-year term on translations is a very bad idea. If there's a mistranslation, it's imperative that we change it, despite how "established" it may be. I would however support putting brakes on changes (longer time for input) to prevent flip-flopping (as was with Solar Sect). - Kiefmaster99 01:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I agree with the statements expressed here.--としあき 01:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
For example, with Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum, we can put a note on the page somewhere (top or bottom of comments, or elsewhere without interfering with BGM extractors) stating "TN: Recently changed from "Dream Palace of the Great Mausoleum", so that users will have access to the old title. Leave it up for a year, or a few months, dunno, until new usage was been sufficiently established so that the note can be dropped without consequence - Kiefmaster99 01:37, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Your assumption that people will follow the wiki is asking for trouble, especially with long standing songs. Now I encourage putting the most correct translation first, but the common usage must be easily available. That's all that the users need. If there comes a time when the new title is accepted among the community you can fix it easily. But disconnecting yourself from the current user base in order to try to force them to use the new names will not achieve your goals.--IcedFairy 01:45, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Actually, I agree with Kiefmaster99 in this case. If we need to let people know, it can be in some prominent location, but not as an "alternate title" or anything like that. A "read this first if you are new to Touhou Project" on the main page should make it easily available enough.--としあき 01:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I do not think it is asking for trouble. Evidence shows that fan usage will gradually shift to the new usage, regardless of how established it may be, as (based on Youtube) new videos will adopt the new name change. For some names, an alternate name not as strongly endorsed by this wiki (such as Tiger-patterned Vaisravana, technically equally correct) may be in usage, but that's not our job.
The statement I suggested earlier serves the purpose of leaving the old title accessible. If you still have doubts that the name won't change in common usage, we can reevaluate whether to drop that statement after that period of time. - Kiefmaster99 02:03, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Those sorts of pages are about the same use as EULA agreements. The average person does not read them. It doesn't matter if they should read them or not, they will not, and any plan that involves them is doomed to failure.
There are two types of people going to look at song titles. People quickly looking up a work in order to search for it on the internet who do not care how correct the translation is so long as they get results, and people who are interested in the nuances of the wording. The second group is willing to spend their time, search through multiple links, and look over translation notes. The first is not. That may not be the way the world should work, but it is the way the world does work. And since the first group is the majority of your user base you should think about what their goals are first. Not what your goals are.
Now the wiki does have a strong presence. And certain titles will change quickly. But in some cases you are fighting ten years of internet presence in one of the busiest fan communities on the internet. You need to understand that, because if you choose to challenge it, you might win, or you might stop being a strong presence. But you can avoid that, you just have to have the old title available without having to jump through links.--IcedFairy 02:15, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I was working on a comment, but got distracted. In the meantime, Iced said basically what I wanted to say, only better.
You can't just assume that people will change what they have been doing for a decade because you want them to. To be frank, people who look at these translation changes will view the wiki as either being poorly translated, nitpicky, "weeabooing", spreading misinformation, or some mixture thereof. I'm not trying to be rude or crass. These are comments I have heard from people who have been Touhou fans for quite a while reacting to the changes that have been made. What do you think a new fan who doesn't have a love of the series behind them is going to say? Squidtentacle 02:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
On the note of of a "read first", I disagree with that. Pages should be inherently accessible to your average reader. Such pages only need to exist for editors. - Kiefmaster99 03:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Kiefmaster99 that it is not our job to document how things are in the fanbase, except for sections explicitly designated as fanon. In canon-related pages, the primary purpose is to give out the official information, not to deal with how things are in the fanbase―that is for the fanon section. Also, some reactions to the translation changes have been positive.--としあき 02:27, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
If you can suggest an alternate way of presenting the new translation without jeopardizing our goal to have the most accurate translations, feel free to do so. To quote a central tenet that we follow, from the MoF music page, "More correct translations should be preferred over incorrect 'established' names." To list the old translation first is senseless as is listing the old usage of "UNL" first (I still remember how much of a shitstorm erupted because the translation was inaccurate), and we cannot discriminate b/w any usage despite how established it may be.
As for having the "old title available without having to jump through links", what pages are you suggesting that people will come to first then? Because my first impression is either the game page itself, or via a direct search. I'm not too keen on changing songsource.js because it can clutter.
Whether to change the translation or not and to what, and how to display any changed translations, are two completely different questions. The second involves how to present them after the fact. If you have problems with the translation itself, then you need to direct those questions to the TL page itself. - Kiefmaster99 02:43, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
May I suggest having it listed similar to the translation notes with the spellcards or like Yuyuko's type? It'll be there visible at a secondary so searches could pick it up. As far as when to transitioning completely off of it, that's a more tricky situation. Firestorm29
At no point did I say the old title should be placed first. I'm saying that the old title merely needs to be easily available otherwise the wiki is failing to convey information. As to what page users will go to first? That's a very good question. You might ask, or check the page views. Most likely it will be off of the music sections in the games, or the character pages, both of which have good amounts of white space.--IcedFairy 03:05, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Well by the tone of how available the title should be despite my suggestion, it seemed to imply that you wanted the old version first. Anyways, if the character pages are an issue, then my songsource.js comment applies. Labelling the title with a possible asterisk/note to the "recently changed note" can help with this issue, or some sort of other fine print perhaps directly beneath the song title.- Kiefmaster99 03:14, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I have done some testing here. That being said, there is a tradeoff with using the English name - you deprive users from easily searching the Japanese term on Youtube. I don't know how many users engage in this practice, but this is something we'd have to consider. - Kiefmaster99 03:45, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I was waiting for the 'weeaboo' crap to be brought up here. Please keep your 4chan garbage to yourself. The Tosiaki situation is not an excuse to trash attempts to rectify translation problems. Nor are we really responsible for make sure things elsewhere (e.g. Youtube) are changed as such. Momiji 04:16, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Finally, please learn to properly sign your comments. It's four tildes (" ~~~~ "). Thanks. Momiji 04:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Once again, not our problem, and nothing we should hold ourselves responsible for. If that sounds mean, exclusionary, or stubborn, you're probably right. But I also know we will never please everyone and the more we try, the more it reflects badly on us and makes us seem half-assed, non-committed to those changes, and just as unprofessional. I believe giving any credence to old translations beyond a page of changes would exacerbate the problem.
Again, look at UNL. Leaving in references to it makes it seem like an acceptable, endorsed alternate title, but stamping it out and not acknowledging it whatsoever totally nips it in the bud, preventing any confusion and keeping most from making the mistake of using it. Since it was changed, I've rarely seen anyone who wasn't using it before refer to it as such.
I know these other translations are trickier than that, and we're trying to turn back 10 years of established translations, but that's why I've gone as far as the above, at least. Personally, I think an asterisk beside the song name or whatever, leading to the translation changes page, which we'd phase out after some time, would be just fine, not to mention the simplest solution. Anything more than that is taking it too far and could cause more confusion. U❊T❊W 04:40, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
My main issue with changing song names on the wiki is that a great deal of these titles have been established for many years. Some of them for over a decade. It's not that change is scary, it's that at this point change is downright unfeasible. The titles are far too ingrained. It's like deciding suddenly that Transformers should be called Car Robots, and trying to convince all the kids who grew up with Transformers in the 80s to call it Car Robots. Know what I'm saying? It just isn't going to happen.
A more realistic idea would be to approach song titles in current and future games more carefully to avoid further mistakes from being made. Ten Desires is new enough that we might be able to influence it. But anything older than that is too solidified. Like laying out concrete, you gotta smooth it out before it can set. Unnamed Giant Catfish 12:12, 20 April 2012 (UTC) (who thinks 'Sumizome' is a proper noun and shouldn't be translated anyway)
When I first found out that "Sumizome" was changed to "Ink-Black," I was shocked and thought that it shouldn't have been changed (it was changed at a time when I was not so active at this wiki), but now I realize why it is a better name. Some things might require getting used to, but that doesn't mean that it is bad.--としあき 13:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I can only agree with Namazu here, and anyone of a similar opinion. I find it myself inacceptable to see names/nouns changed just because some people suddenly figured it might sound better or what not, but what really seems to throw most people off is the fact that the established names have been exactly this for ages now, and changing them will spark nothing but confusion. Why is "Ink-Black" a better term than Sumizome, anyways? Aside from the fact that English speakers understand it. Just because now people noticed, we don't need a make-over of anything that has been done before, just be careful on future releases. And: That might be true, Tosiaki, but it doesn't have to mean it's good either. It's a matter of each individual's taste, and something like this should not be changed without consent in the first place. HyperGumba 19:20, 20. April 2012 (GMT+1)

Admittedly I've been a bit of a newer member of the fandom but noticed that really the wiki's layouts are rather chaotic and at times unreadable with sections being added that aren't needed (Such as some of the additions to the Utsuho page debating nuclear fusion of all things and if it’s a 'clean' power source). Also a number of the newer changes just act to make the wiki pages not look only cluttered and poorly written but act as if only there to pad the articles. With the Info Boxes they should be having a KISS Philosophy. Basic points. Character titles in English. With the "Character Titles" page you can have two columns one with the Japanese Title and the other with the English Title, akin to the Music listings with the untranslated name in one column and English the other (Both which can be used to help find music/remixes related to the character in question) The use of "Ability to the Extent of X" and other clunky translations make me wonder if this is a good idea. Clunky Grammar and wording makes an entry look unprofessional. Inconsistent and at times seemingly random decisions to use Japanese species name or not also make the wiki look at times schizophrenic. We need to get some standards down although I'm one for not just randomly using the Japanese word when there is a perfectly acceptable English equivalent (such as Fairy). The Japanese Specific for type of ghost for example could be put in Parenthesis next to ghost as it was listed in the Perfect Memento in a Strict Sense Table of Contents With the Music “Retranslations” It creates a MAJOR issue when trying to looking it up as I use the names of the music that the translation patches the game uses in order to hunt down remixes. If you want to have on their pages Alternate translations (akin to how the Maribel article lists alternate translations of her name or versions that appear in places) that would be okay but completely throwing away said versions like they never existed will only create confusion Zelinko 17:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Hey, guys? Do you realize that this is not the only Touhou wiki and, further more, this isn't even the first one that comes up on a Google search? Currently you guys are playing second fiddle to the other one. They don't do these changes. So, you are doing one of two things; Making a polarizing divide between the fanbase that uses one wiki an the other (Which, truthfully, probably won't matter to much in most respects, outside of powers maybe) and more importantly potentially damning this wiki for the other one. As other people have said; It looks weird. To be a bit more rude, it looks half-assed because it looks bad, or things are left untranslated. When given the choice between one that looks of good quality (Ads and such aside) and one that looks only half translated... People are going to flock to the former, not the latter. You're not going to make any sweeping, fanbase whole changes. How long have these wikis been up? Touhou's been around for years, why break the happy status quo for something that in what it tells the viewer changes so little, yet looks worse? Now, mind you, by all means put up alternate translations to songs and whatever have you. Have it all redirect to the same page, put in up in the header the different translations. In a perfect world there would be only one, but Japanese doesn't directly translate into English, as most probably know.

Don't send this on the route of the other-wiki, where changes and things done polarized the userbase enough to make another wiki. Though in this case things would probably revert back to the other one. Sunflower 17:22, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Good job missing the big underlying issue here. I guess we should go and change Touhou Hisoutensoku to Unthinkable Natural Law, just because it was the first 'English' name that was crapped out, regardless of it's validity. As I've already said, keep your anger of the Tosiaki situation out of this. These are issues that have been known for a lot longer than he's been editing, perhaps even back before the wiki was on Wikia. While I don't think he handled his situation correctly, it doesn't change the fact that some translated content is wrong and should be corrected.
Keep one thing in mind, due to the nature of the wiki being based on translated information, things can and will change over time. The overall body of knowledge of Touhou isn't a single, crystallized, monolithic thing. It does change and it can't be guaranteed to be an eternally unchanging piece of 'English canon'. The Wiki is, by it's nature, unreliable, although that doesn't stop us from trying to be. We're working through this, and I'm hoping that the Tosiaki situation will improve and we can successfully realise some solutions to long-term issues here without simply resorting to bans and probations. Momiji 17:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I'd like to mention that nobody said anything about Tosiaki in the last couple of comments. It's all been about the wiki in general and how things are set up. Squidtentacle 17:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
This whole heated situation is because people went 'hey, someone's screwing up our Touhou Wiki, we need to give them the boot'. While I appreciate concern over translation issues, emotions over this really need to be turned down first, or this situation won't be resolved at all any time soon. Momiji 18:06, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Not really. It started because people went 'hey, the wiki is changing in ways we don't like, we need to speak up about this'. The last few comments have been statements of opinions and viewpoints on the changes being made, not calling for someone's head on a pike. Squidtentacle 18:10, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I think you're doing us a serious disservice here Momiji. I said it on MotK, and I will say it here. I brought this topic up not because of any one translation issue but because the current official translation standards on the wiki are to advance translations even if it costs usability. If you want to be very precise this is about what you said.
I'd also like to add that I feel a majority of the changes are good. No (reasonable) person is complaining about the fixes to the game translations, or the print works, or even the internals of the character pages. The majority of people like those or at least accept them. And perhaps we've been lax in thanking you all for doing them. I know I wish that the wiki had endings so you could fix the botched translations there from ages past. But we have an issue with perfect translation becoming the overriding goal on every section of every page. That is the purpose of this debate.--IcedFairy 18:22, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I appreciate the support, and I do think things will be better here on out. What I don't appreciate is, we've gone through this effort, whether it's translation or translation discussion or moderation of heated debates, and then people start talking about lack of confidence and Wikia and re-forking and nonsense like that. Yeah the body of knowledge is in flux, and it's going to make people uncomfortable, and I hope we can get through that as effortlessly as possible. But bringing up the Wikia situation and talking about re-forking the wiki over this, or implying this is all some sort of conspiracy of idiots, is a slap in the face to the effort we've made here since we moved everything here. The Yuurei, Abilities, and Yosuzume (thanks Squid) issues are clearing up, and I hope we can move past all of this nonsense.
No more of this, I think this has taken its course. Momiji 19:01, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
As Momiji as said, this is by no means a recent issue. Multiple, multiple, translation changes have occurred in the past, and it seems very strange that people are complaining of this now rather than then.
The whole UNL thing started when the game was announced, Aug '09, and brought to attention shortly after the game's release.
Bloom Nobly, Ink-Black Cherry Blossoms actually started way back in Feb '10, reverted by myself on consistency grounds, then better supported, defended and implemented around Oct '11. Then shortly reverted back and rereverted.
Solar Sect of Mystic Wisdom was changed and then reverted, Aug '11.
Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum was changed in Mar '12. Until then, the location title and the music title were different, as well as the game patch TL, so it had to be changed.
Trying to read some of these comments is like trying to read that one comment on the UNL issue trying to skew facts: "because of something some random guy posted on day-1 of the game's release". If the issue is whether a translation needs to be changed, more often than not, it does. If there's an issue with the translation itself, whether it sounds really bad or whatever (as with Abilities), then that is a legitimate translation issue, and needs to be brought up. That being said, editors on both sides need to listen to the other side.
There were other more recent problems on this wiki, such as the character page additions, yes, as well as some other name shifts. We're trying our hardest to rectify those issues, and past issues as well. Hopefully the upcoming summer will provide ample time for these changes. - Kiefmaster99 22:01, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Suggested Guidelines[edit]

I've read both of the threads above this one and I want to say that the problem is that the wiki does not want to keep its front end simple at all, it wants to dump all its information on the reader at one time and shroud them in a cloud of confusion.

The high priority pages should have clear and concise information. If the reader wants to look further into the details, you can create pages for those details and link them from there as brightly colored translation notes instead of putting that page's info and every other page's info on that profile. Let the reader explore as far as he or she wants or needs to, don't force them to read everything or "translate for themselves" just to get to the information they're after.--Choja 18:42, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Something I might suggest is to create a "Simple English" version of this wiki (somewhat like the Simple English Wikipedia) for people who might get overwhelmed at seeing new terms introduced and other stuff like that. I know that Kiefmaster once rejected this idea before (see previous discussion here), but if using "simple English" is that big of a deal (and I see that it has been a very big deal in recent days), then this might be a good cause to actually consider it.--としあき 19:07, 30 April 2012 (UTC)