Difference between revisions of "User talk:BraviNoname"

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::::All right, fair points. I kinda have to retract a couple of claims for fairness, after checking again. First, not being able to stay in the Netherworld also comes from IN's Ghost ending, so it wasn't a retcon (my bad). Second, Eirin says she uses her drugs to attack (so like you said it doesn't indicate that she took it). Eirin being considered one of "those who can't die" in CiLR is still true, though. Also, in Eirin's talk page they confirmed that she said she ''already'' took it, and also that she said she can't take care of the Netherworld ''because'' of that, so it looks like she has a time limit or whatever, not that she can't enter at all (too bad i didn't look at it first). Welp, i'm done. I will probably add the source saying 4 people used the elixir if i find it again. [[User:PK|PK]] ([[User talk:PK|talk]]) 18:11, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 
::::All right, fair points. I kinda have to retract a couple of claims for fairness, after checking again. First, not being able to stay in the Netherworld also comes from IN's Ghost ending, so it wasn't a retcon (my bad). Second, Eirin says she uses her drugs to attack (so like you said it doesn't indicate that she took it). Eirin being considered one of "those who can't die" in CiLR is still true, though. Also, in Eirin's talk page they confirmed that she said she ''already'' took it, and also that she said she can't take care of the Netherworld ''because'' of that, so it looks like she has a time limit or whatever, not that she can't enter at all (too bad i didn't look at it first). Welp, i'm done. I will probably add the source saying 4 people used the elixir if i find it again. [[User:PK|PK]] ([[User talk:PK|talk]]) 18:11, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 
:::::Again, the CiLR thing is only up to interpretation. Didn't explicitly say that Eirin consumed the elixir, it was implied by Yukari. What you've said about the Netherworld barrier is only an interpretation as well, it hasn't been said that Eirin has a time limit when she goes there, and it has been said by Youmu that Mokou can't go to the Netherworld period because of her immortality, so I doubt any other hourai immortal can. If it's said 4 people used the Elixir, the fourth could be either Eirin or some unknown person. [[User:BraviNoname|BraviNoname]] ([[User talk:BraviNoname|talk]]) 01:20, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 
:::::Again, the CiLR thing is only up to interpretation. Didn't explicitly say that Eirin consumed the elixir, it was implied by Yukari. What you've said about the Netherworld barrier is only an interpretation as well, it hasn't been said that Eirin has a time limit when she goes there, and it has been said by Youmu that Mokou can't go to the Netherworld period because of her immortality, so I doubt any other hourai immortal can. If it's said 4 people used the Elixir, the fourth could be either Eirin or some unknown person. [[User:BraviNoname|BraviNoname]] ([[User talk:BraviNoname|talk]]) 01:20, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 +
:::::In the ending she literally said she can't stay in the Netherworld because she took the elixir, period.
 +
And sorry, but for someone ready to dismiss "interpretations" and "implications" you sound kind of a hypocrite. You discard both Eirin's ''stated fact'' and Yukari's opinion which coincides with it, but for some reason you take Youmu's line (which funnily enough is also subject to interpretation when you translate it) as the absolute truth. Want a fact? Youmu didn't make the Netherworld, she isn't omniscient, and she has no way of knowing if Mokou could enter the Netherworld since we never saw Mokou trying, so using your same reasoning it's just her opinion and she could be wrong, or it could not apply to non-humans like Eirin. It's "Eirin's stated fact + Yukari's opinion" vs "Youmu's ''highly'' interpretable opinion". Remove the opinions, you are left with one fact: Eirin is immortal. [[User:PK|PK]] ([[User talk:PK|talk]]) 08:01, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 08:02, 5 July 2020

Eirin[edit]

In the ending she literally says she took the medicine made with Kaguya's power (まだ、死にたくは無いわ。 それに私は、姫の能力で作られた薬を服用している。残念だけど、冥界のお世話にはなれないのよ), which needless to say it's the Hourai Elixir. PK (talk) 06:55, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Also where does the "immortals can't access the netherworld" come from? PK (talk) 13:22, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
She fell ill in Inaba of the Moon/Earth, so she could just not be aging anymore if she took the Elixir. And you have to take three sips in order to become immortal. First one to not age anymore, second one to never fall ill, and third one to become immortal. BraviNoname (talk) 06:40, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Inaba is a gag comic which wasn't even actually written by ZUN, i doubt it proves anything. What "does" implies her immortality is the end of CiLR, where it's stated Yukari's goal was to instill fear in "those who can't die" (Eirin).PK (talk) 08:43, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Does Inaba follow the canon? Yukari's sentence may be about the immortals in general so, Eirin isn't necessarily included. BraviNoname (talk) 10:35, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
The ending is outright about Yukari scarring Eirin's mind with the taste of lunarian sake. Not Kaguya or anyone else. The sentence about scaring immortals is literally consequential to Eirin recognizing the taste. As for Inaba, ZUN is only credited as the creator of the setting, not as the writer like in the other actually canon printworks. PK (talk) 10:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Aren't the lunarians already immortal to begin with without taking the Elixir? The ending said that she was going to take it, but she probably didn't, probably on second thought. And here is the proof that immortals can't access the Netherworld. BraviNoname (talk) 09:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Lunarians aren't immortal by any means, just long lived as long as they stay away from impurity. Still, in CiLR we are told 4 people used the elixir (Kaguya, Mokou, Chang'e are the others). Reading the ending, it's also possible that she took it after the ending, when Yuyuko tries to poison her ("i don't want to die yet, so i'll take the elixir. Too bad, i can't take care of the Netherworld"). PK (talk) 10:04, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Where has it been exactly said that 4 people used the elixir in CiLR? It may be possible that she took it, it's not 100% sure, and she didn't say she was going to consume the elixir. BraviNoname (talk) 03:15, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
She says "それに私は、姫の能力で作られた薬を服用している。", meaning she either already took it, or she was going to. As for the number of people, i'm sure it was somewhere, i have to search for it. Another thing, that you removed, is the fact that Eirin is able to "revive" at the end of the battle explicitly due to the elixir (presumably with Kaguya accelerating the recovery). How could the elixir help Eirin if she didn't take it? It's not like it grants Kaguya the power to revive others. I also think we are taking the "can't go to the Netherworld" too literally (and translation choices can change the whole meaning, it can outright be translated as "you can't/won't come to Hakugyokurou if you don't die"). It might just mean you won't go there as a part of the "natural" cycle as a phantom/ghost, not that you are physically unable to enter. PK (talk) 08:07, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
And let's not forget the best explanation: early inconsistency about how all these barriers work. In IN it's said it would be impossible to travel between Gensokyo and the Moon due to the barrier, so no one from the Moon could find Kaguya and Eirin, yet we have SSiB and CiLR. The Hakurei barrier itself was meant to be made by humans and Yuyuko said Yukari couldn't do it, then BAM, later canon says it was actually made by youkai themselves, and specifically by Yukari. PK (talk) 18:02, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Every boss could revive at the end of a battle to use their last spells, and yet Kaguya and Mokou are the only ones confirmed (not implied) to have taken the elixir. The ending implied she has done it, but it could be that she decided not to take it afterwards. Yuyuko wasn't scared of Eirin at all and she'd be so if she was immortal. The barrier of the Netherworld is at least confirmed to prevent the immortals from getting to the Netherworld, and Lunarians have other ways to go to the earth, such as the Dream World. BraviNoname (talk) 10:46, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, every boss revives, but Eirin is the only one who has an explanation for it, and it's explicitly the elixir no matter how you look at it, Kaguya even says it. Yuyuko was scared of Mokou because she outright tried her powers and it didn't work. I mean, she was also not scared of Kaguya because she never tried it against her for that matter, and she actually says "my enemy!" when Eirin says she took, or was going to take, the elixir. And the point isn't that it's later revealed that there are 2000 ways to come to Gensokyo from the Moon (Reisen 2 used a primitive physical way), because in IN both Yukari (who travels to the Moon on her own, and knows Toyohime can do the same) and the narrator both said Eirin's entire plan was pointless since at that time there was explicitly no way for someone from the Moon to enter Gensokyo and find Kaguya. It's clearly a retcon about how it works, and shows how ZUN can, and will, change idea about how the series work, especially if you consider that he was supposed to end Touhou right at IN.

Anyway, it's basically like this:

  • Eirin is considered an immortal by the end of CiLR
  • In IN she said she was going to become immortal in IN, or that she already was (coincides with at least being immortal in CiLR)
  • Revives because of the elixir (coincides with being already immortal and with CiLR)

so i'm not even sure what the problem is anymore, or what your problem with her immortality is. She either was already immortal, and immortals not being able to enter the Netherworld is a later retcon even if you take it literally, or she became immortal after the ending. The only point against her immortality is entering the Netherworld, and it doesn't matter anyway if she took it after the ending, even if you take the statement as being aupposed to be true even in IN. PK (talk) 11:43, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Kaguya didn't say that Eirin was going to consume the elixir, instead they together made a spellcard with their combined power instead, putting the Hourai Elixir in danmaku form. Where has it exactly and explicitly been stated in CiLR that Eirin has consumed the Elixir ? You've never said it. In the ending she implied that she was gonna take the elixir but there's no proof that she actually did it, it's like saying Junko is going to kill Chang'e but nope there's no proof that she did. When did she ever revive? Because of the Last Spell? Once again, every boss does to use theirs, danmaku is supposedly non-lethal and I doubt a goddess like her can die from that. I don't have any problem with that immortality, it's just a matter of officially confirmed facts on a wiki, not of supposed facts and interpretations. BraviNoname (talk) 14:48, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
All right, fair points. I kinda have to retract a couple of claims for fairness, after checking again. First, not being able to stay in the Netherworld also comes from IN's Ghost ending, so it wasn't a retcon (my bad). Second, Eirin says she uses her drugs to attack (so like you said it doesn't indicate that she took it). Eirin being considered one of "those who can't die" in CiLR is still true, though. Also, in Eirin's talk page they confirmed that she said she already took it, and also that she said she can't take care of the Netherworld because of that, so it looks like she has a time limit or whatever, not that she can't enter at all (too bad i didn't look at it first). Welp, i'm done. I will probably add the source saying 4 people used the elixir if i find it again. PK (talk) 18:11, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Again, the CiLR thing is only up to interpretation. Didn't explicitly say that Eirin consumed the elixir, it was implied by Yukari. What you've said about the Netherworld barrier is only an interpretation as well, it hasn't been said that Eirin has a time limit when she goes there, and it has been said by Youmu that Mokou can't go to the Netherworld period because of her immortality, so I doubt any other hourai immortal can. If it's said 4 people used the Elixir, the fourth could be either Eirin or some unknown person. BraviNoname (talk) 01:20, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
In the ending she literally said she can't stay in the Netherworld because she took the elixir, period.

And sorry, but for someone ready to dismiss "interpretations" and "implications" you sound kind of a hypocrite. You discard both Eirin's stated fact and Yukari's opinion which coincides with it, but for some reason you take Youmu's line (which funnily enough is also subject to interpretation when you translate it) as the absolute truth. Want a fact? Youmu didn't make the Netherworld, she isn't omniscient, and she has no way of knowing if Mokou could enter the Netherworld since we never saw Mokou trying, so using your same reasoning it's just her opinion and she could be wrong, or it could not apply to non-humans like Eirin. It's "Eirin's stated fact + Yukari's opinion" vs "Youmu's highly interpretable opinion". Remove the opinions, you are left with one fact: Eirin is immortal. PK (talk) 08:01, 5 July 2020 (UTC)