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Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red/Interview
< | Comic: Phantasmal Song | Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red |
”東方”ゲームデザイン概論 |
Introduction to "Touhou" Game Design | |
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2誌での外伝連載、更に今夏の『東方花映塚』発売を控え、八面六腑の活躍を見せる幻想神主・ZUN氏。 |
To accompany this spin-off, along with the upcoming release of Phantasmagoria of Flower View, the kannushi of fantasy, ZUN, will reveal the inner workings of his mind. The goal of this interview was to have ZUN talk about his gaming history and his stance on game systems, as well as to express the concept behind his new game Phantasmagoria of Flower View. | |
世界観を根底に据えるというゲーム哲学 |
The Philosophy of Establishing the Foundation for a Game World | |
Interviewer |
――今日はZUNさんのゲームに対する「哲学」を中心にお話を伺っていこうと考えています。まずは初めてゲームに触れた頃について訊かせていただけますか? |
Today, we will be asking ZUN about the philosophy at the heart of his games. First, may I ask when the first time you played a game was? |
ZUN |
僕は実家が喫茶店で、幼稚園の頃にはすでにテーブル筐体が置いてあるという環境に育ちました。だからゲームへの興味は非常にあって、小学校に上がってファミコンが世に出回るとすぐに買ってもらいました。新しいソフトが手に入ったら友達と一緒に遊び尽くす。でも普段は外で虫取りとかもしているような、普通の田舎の子供でした。 |
It was when I was in kindergarten. My parents placed a table arcade machine in their cafe to lighten up the atmosphere. That kindled my interest in games, and during elementary school, the Famicom came out and we bought one right away. When I got a new game, I'd play them with my friends inside and out. But normally I would go outside and catch bugs and stuff, too. I was a normal countryside kid, after all. |
Interviewer |
――その頃に衝撃を受けたゲームは? |
What games from back then left an impression on you? |
ZUN |
一番衝撃を受けたのは、『スーパーマリオブラザーズ』です。それ以前のゲームはスクロールはしないし、まだ黒い背景が多かったんですけど、『スーパーマリオ』は地下に行けば地下の世界があり、雲の上には雲の上の世界がある。いろんな場所に行けること自体が驚きで、その都度曲が変わるのも衝撃的でした。 |
Super Mario Bros. left the biggest impression on me. Before then, games didn't scroll, and there were still many games with black backgrounds. But in Super Mario Bros., if you went underground, there was an underground world. If you went above the clouds, there was a world up there, too. All the different places you could go in itself surprised me, and the fact that the music also changed with the setting was impressive. |
Interviewer |
――その両作品にインパクトを受けたのは、ゲーム性やシステムを重視している点にあるのでしょうか。 |
In both of these games, what points about the game's system or quality were important? |
ZUN |
あれらが革命的だったのは、システム云々以前に、ゲームの持っている雰囲気自体が言葉にしがたいところで違っていたんですよ。後から「システムがこう革命的だった」「キャラクターがこう魅力的だった」と、個別に指摘できますけど、当時はそんな理屈を考えながら遊んでいないし、それが理由で流行る訳でもない。システム自体はそれまでのゲームの延長線上にあったとしても、決定的に違う何か。あえて言葉にするとしたら「世界観」の違いだと――通常の意味合いからはやや離れた言い回しですけど――ここでは呼んでおきましょうか。 |
Those games were revolutionary because they had things like different systems from games before them, creating new atmospheres within themselves. Later, people would say stuff like "that game engine was revolutionary" or "the characters had a lot of appeal", but at the time, no one really thought about the individual aspects because they were too busy playing. Games don't become hits because of those kinds of reasons. The systems in those games weren't just the pinnacle of all the games made up to that point, there was also a decisive difference. If I had to put it into words, I would say they "created a new world". Though it's a little different from the usual meaning, let's just go with that. |
Interviewer |
――今仰った「世界観」は、非常に広いニュアンスを含んでいると思いますが、いわゆる世界設定みたいなものとはどこが異なるのでしょうか。 |
Now, when you say "creating a world", that comes with very broad implications, so I imagine there will be many different approaches to establishing a world. |
ZUN |
「世界観」の良さと「設定」の良さの違いだと考えてみてください。たとえばSFっぽい世界、レトロな世界が好ましいというのが設定の良さ。他方で、ある世界に合わせた音楽や背景、操作感があって、ハイスコアを入力するところまで含めて全てがまとまっているのが、ゲームにおける世界観の良さ。 |
Please think of the quality of a setting and how well it is established as different things. For example, take sci-fi worlds or retro worlds. How well they are liked relates to the quality of how the setting is established. On the other side, how well the music and the backgrounds match the setting, how the game controls feel, even up to entering a name for a high score, those are aspects relating to the quality of a certain setting. |
Interviewer |
――ゲームの個別の要素の関係づけ、意味づけ=世界観と言う感じでしょうか。 |
Is creating a world the same as giving meaning to every individual element in the game? |
ZUN |
そういった世界観を作るのが常にうまいメーカーがケイブさんです。『プロギアの嵐』(※2)の面構成は、朝から始まって夕方になり、夜になり、クリアすると2周目でまた朝になる。単純な時間の流れによって「進んでいる」感じがするんです。同じことは『ぐわんげ』(※3)にも言えて、町の中から白、最後は地獄と、ステージごとに流れがあって、加えて夏から始まり秋、冬、そして春になる。面構成に意味があって、プレイヤーをゲーム世界にのめり込ませるような形に作ってあるんです。 |
For that, I'd like to talk about CAVE, who have always done a great job in creating their worlds. In Progear (*2), the look of the game changes as time passes from morning to evening, then to night, and when you start the second loop, it's morning again. A simple thing like the flow of time gives a real feeling of "progression". There is a similar effect in Guwange (*3), where it goes from the white color scheme in the town, to the darkness of Hell at the end. The stages flow smoothly, and in addition, it starts out in summer, and goes to fall, winter, and spring. The look of the game's stages have meaning. The player gets absorbed into the world of these kinds of games. |
Interviewer |
――具体的にどのあたりに影響を受けました? |
Can you give any specific examples of this influence? |
ZUN |
『ダライアス外伝』は、ステージの三分の二くらいの長さがボス戦という、ボスの性格づけをして、盛り上げるためだけに道中があるようなゲーム構成が特徴的なんです。それまでのゲームだと「3面が面白い、4面が……」という会話になるところが、「ダライアス外伝」では、オクトパスだ、グレートシングだ、とボスの名前でゲームが語られる。つまりゲーム的な記号で交わされるようになったんです。この「記号のキャラクター化」という部分を、『東方』ではさらに進めてみました。ボス戦に偏ったゲーム構成にくわえて、キャラクターと弾幕攻撃を結びつけた「スペルカード」というシステムは、シューティングでいうところの第二段階、第三段階といったゲーム的な記号も廃した結果生まれたものなんです。 |
In Darius Gaiden, there would be boss battles as long as 2/3rds of the stage, and the bosses would have personalities. Another characteristic is that the game would be organized solely to keep things exciting during the middle. Until then, when talking about games, people would only say things like "stage 3 was fun, stage 4 was...", but in Darius Gaiden, there was Octopus and Great Thing, and people could call bosses by name when they talked about the game. It meant that these game symbols were becoming something else. This "change" of turning symbols into characters made its way into Touhou, too. So, the first point of influence is making the games heavily favor boss battles, the second is the "Spell Card" system that tied characters to specific attack patterns, and the third is the result of making bosses no more than mere game symbols obsolete. |
Interviewer |
――そういった独特な「世界観」を根底に据えたゲームデザインと、基本的に一人で製作されてきたという『東方』の創作スタイルは不可分なものでしょうか。 |
So when creating a unique world for a game, it's fundamentally impossible to create something like Touhou with more than one person? |
ZUN |
だと思います。多人数でゲームを作る場合でも僕が理想と考えるのは、ゲームデザインはごく少数の人間が行なって、作業は複数に振るとしても、その人たちは作業要員としてデザイナーに合わせるように作る体制。そうしないと作品がまとまらくて[typo]、はっちゃけた感じがしないんです。今度の最新作『東方花映塚』の開発では、助っ人を頼んでるんですけど、僕が指定した作業だけをやってもらい、ゲーム作りにほとんど参加してもらってません。ゲームにとってはそれがいいと思って。 |
That's my opinion. In games where there are many people working on it, even in a best-case scenario, only a few people are working on the game design. As the game nears completion, they have to pull double duty, working on other tasks in addition to design. It's definitely the hardest phase of making a game. For my latest game, Phantasmagoria of Flower View, while I had to ask a few people for help, I was the only one working on it, so it was still largely a solo effort. I think it was best for the game. |
売ることにこだわらず自分の好きなゲームを同人で出し続ける姿勢 |
The Attitude of Doujin Developers Not Focusing on Sales and Continuing to Make Games They Like | |
ZUN |
今僕が言ってきたのは、売れなくてもいいけど、いいゲーム。売れるゲームとなると話は変わってきてしまう。 |
I would like to say that even if a game doesn't sell very well, it can still be a good game. Making a game sell is a different story, though. |
Interviewer |
――同人では、売れるゲームを目指そうとは考えていませんか? |
You think that doujin developers are not trying to make their games sell? |
ZUN |
全く考えてないですね。同人は売れなくても迷惑かけないし、批判されようが何だろうが関係なく、自分が好きなゲームを出しています。またそういう理念を持ってる以上、説得力ある行動をしなきゃいけないと思ってますから、新作の広告も流さないし、自分のホームページで強く押し出すわけでもない。自分が出したゲームの評判も、一切見ないようにしてます。 |
There's no effort whatsoever. They believe that since they're small outfits, there's no obligation to do so. They'll go on making their own thing, never accepting or even seeking criticism of any kind. As an extension, they won't even care about publicizing their games. No advertising or anything to draw attention to new releases, not even on their own website. |
Interviewer |
――それはわざと遮断されてるのですか? |
So those developers purposefully isolate themselves? |
ZUN |
忙しくて見ていられないという事情はありますけど、わざと遮断してるところもあります。他の作品の影響を受けるのはありだと思うんですけど、自分の作品を遊んだ人の影響を受けちゃうと、まずいスパイラルに陥りかねません。もちろんこれが商業の場合だったら、評価を気にしないというのは問題だと思います。ファンサイトの評価や、手間を惜しまずアンケートハガキを出してくれた人の意見などは、積極的に取り入れていくべきでしょうね。 |
There are instances where they are just so busy it's hard for them to find time to handle PR, but otherwise, I would say yes. However, while it's natural to get inspiration from other works, if you get too caught in being worried what other people will think of your game, that's going to do nothing but hurt your productivity. Of course, I think that in the case of businesses, not caring about a game's reception is a real issue. They should be proactive in getting opinions through people who fill out surveys, fan sites, and other sources. |
Interviewer |
――でも同人の場合は、それをやらない方がいいと。 |
But in the case of doujin developers, it's better not to do that? |
ZUN |
同人自体がミニ商業化して、商業とやることが同じになってしまうと、先が見えてきてしまうんですよ。僕はユーザーが同人作家に要望を言い過ぎるのは、同人っぽくないと思ってます。商業とは性質の異なる同人というものに対して、要望や批判をし過ぎるとものを作る人のパワーが減ってきて、市場が委縮してしまう。ただ東方は、ここまで規模が広がった以上、商業ゲームと同じように遊ぶ人も多いので、仕方が無い面もあるかなと。だから作る側が意図的に無視するくらいでないと、と考えてやってますが、最近は東方を遊んでくれているユーザーに冷たすぎる気がしなくもないんですけど(笑)。 |
Doujin developers are basically mini-businesses, so they should still act like businesses, and always be looking ahead. I think that consumers demand too much from doujin creators, things that are not doujin-like. When you compare the differences between businesses and doujin developers, too many requests and criticisms can wear down on the creator, so the market atrophies as a result. However, in the case of Touhou, its scope is still widening, and there are as many people playing it as there are playing commercial games, so it's gotten to the point where I can't ignore the fans even if I try. That's why those the production side should not be so aloof. That's my general mindset, although I get the feeling I've been a bit cold towards my fans recently. (laugh) |
Interviewer |
――ちなみに東方の開発にあたって、どのような機材を使用されていますか? |
By the way, what programs do you use in the development of the Touhou games? |
ZUN |
同人ゲームを作る人が一般的に使う機材とソフトしか使ってないですよ。パソコンは自作のDOS-V,開発環境はコンパイラ、「Visual Studio」、画像だって一般的な「Photoshop」、音楽も「Cubase SX」というソフトで、プロユースではないです。10年前は同人ゲームを作るのも大変でしたけど……どうして作れるようになったかというと、血の滲むような努力があったということです。努力を前面に出すのは好きじゃないからあまり見せないようにしてますけど(笑)。 |
I don't use the software or programs that most doujin developers generally use when I make my games. On my computer, I use my own version of DOS-V, and my development environment is a compiler, Visual Studio. For pictures, it's generally Photoshop, and for music I use Cubase SX, but not Prouse. It was a lot harder for doujin developers to make games 10 years ago. No matter what you made, it took a lot of blood, sweat, and effort. I don't like my expression when I exert a lot of effort so I don't do it very often. (laugh) |
Interviewer |
――これからゲームを作りたい人に対してアドバイスをするとしたら? |
Do you have any advice for people who want to make games? |
ZUN |
ゲーム会社に入りたい人と、ゲームを作りたい人へのアドバイスは別だと思っています。まずゲーム会社に入りたいなら、入りたい人の数に対して採用される数は圧倒的に少ないので、飛び抜けた個性を磨いて目立つことが大切です。僕は作品提出で東方を出したんですけど、作品自体はかなりの努力が必要でしたから。 |
I think that people who want to work for a game company and those who want to make games should receive separate advice. First, to those who want to work for a game company, the ratio of people who want to work for a company versus the number who are actually hired is incredibly large, so to stand out, it's important to hone and improve your unique qualities. I presented Touhou to demonstrate mine, but that was because I had to put a considerable amount of effort into it. |
気持ちよさを追求する最新作『東方花映塚』 |
Pursuing the Feel-Good Quality for Phantasmagoria of Flower View | |
Interviewer |
――『東方花映塚』のテーマは花ということで明るいですよね(笑)。どういった内容になっているのでしょうか? |
The theme for Phantasmagoria of Flower View seems to be very cheerful, being about flowers (laugh). How would you describe it? |
ZUN |
自分が常々やりたかった、「気楽に遊べて気持ちのいいゲーム」という想いを込めたのが『東方花映塚』。重たい設定が嫌いな人にもとっつきがいいと思いますけど、その反面これまで東方を遊んでいた人全員が喜ぶゲームではないと考えてました。ところが体験版の反響が思いのほか良くて、実はちょっと戸惑ってます(笑)。 |
It's something I've always wanted to make. Phantasmagoria of Flower View is a game I made with the notion of something that you can play casually and still have fun. I would like to think that even those who didn't like the moderately serious settings of the previous games still enjoyed them, but on the other hand, I realize you can't please everyone. The response to the trial version has been positive, though, so I'm actually a little confused. (laugh) |
Interviewer |
――音楽に関しても気持ちいいということですが。 |
So the music is enjoyable as well? |
ZUN |
今までは音楽をステージに合わせなきゃいけないので結構制限があったんですけど、今回はステージの展開は関係無く、バックに流れていて気持ちいいことが前提なので、すごくキレのいい曲に仕上がってると思います。遊んでいるときに繰り返し流れて、脳内に訴えかける音楽を心がけました。メッセージを飛ばさずセリフを全部読むと、いいタイミングで音楽が始まるようにも調整してますので。 |
While it's not like the music hasn't been suited for its stages up to now, there were considerable limits. But this time, there is nothing resembling progression within a stage and the only thing that flows is the background. It felt good and because of that reason, I thought I could compose some really beautiful songs. As a song repeats during a game, it gets stuck in your head. By doing away with any forced mid-stage dialog, I didn't have to think about arranging the music around them. |
Interviewer |
――ストーリーについてはどんな感じですか? |
How does the story feel? |
ZUN |
かなり緊張感があって面白い内容ではあると思うんですけど、やや長いので現在調整中です(笑)。今回はキャラクターごとにエンディングがあって、繰り返し遊んで色んなストーリーを知ると、繋がりが見えてくるというか。一回遊んだだけではよく理解できないし、キャラクターによってはどんなことが起きたのか分からないまま終わるんですけど、それもまた東方らしいかなと。 |
There are a few tense, interesting parts to it, but it's still a little long so I'm presently fine-tuning it (laugh). This time, each character will have their own ending, so with repeated playthroughs, you can learn all kinds of things about the characters as well as their relationships. If you play through it once, you won't get the whole picture, just as the characters themselves don't fully understand the events that unfold by the end, but that's just another Touhou-like thing about the game. |
Interviewer |
――対戦シューティングというのは意外でした。その意図は? |
A versus shmup was unexpected. What was your intention? |
ZUN |
今年はゲームを作るつもりはなかったんですけど、よくよく考えてみたら東方10周年。せっかく東方を遊んでくれてる人も増えたことだし、東方好きが集まったらこれで遊んで盛り上がってもらえたら……というファンサービス的な意図があります。 |
While I wasn't planning on making a game this year, it's Touhou's 10th anniversary so I thought really, really hard about it. A lot of people are playing the Touhou games now, so I wanted to do something that would get everyone excited... so I intended for this to be a fan-service game and make it like Twinkle Star Sprites. |
Interviewer |
――最後になりますが、本書『東方文化帖』の位置づけについて訊かせてもらえますか? |
Finally, I'd like to ask about where you place this book, Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red. |
ZUN |
この本のお話をいただいたとき、『東方文花帖』という書籍とゲームが相互に影響し合うような、すでに東方を知ってる人が更に深く楽しめるようなものを作りたいと考えたんですね。だからこの本には、『東方花映塚』のストーリーが面白くなるような情報を色々織り交ぜてあります。いま東方で遊んでいる人の数は決して多いわけじゃないけど、触れてる人はすごく深く触れていて、それはたぶん、新しい人を取り込むために頑張ってないけど、『東方文花帖』のように、一度触れてくれた人に向けて色々とやっているからだと思います。でも偶然本書に触れてしまった人は……驚かれるかもしれませんね(笑)。 |
This book and the game, Shoot the Bullet have a mutual influence on each other, and I wanted to make something that would give people who already know about Touhou even greater enjoyment. That's why the story of this book is a bunch of interesting news articles about all kinds of things. While I don't think there are THAT many people who play the games, I wanted to give anyone familiar with the series and in-depth, up-close look at it. So I guess I didn't make this book for newbies, but for people who have had at least some experience with it. But if by accident someone new does read this book... they might be surprised. (laugh) |
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< | Comic: Phantasmal Song | Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red |
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