Strange Creators of Outer World/Hidden Star in Four Seasons Interview with ZUN

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東方天空璋
ZUNインタビュー
S T R A N G E  C R E A T O R S  I N T E R V I E W  0 1

Hidden Star in Four Seasons
ZUN interview
S T R A N G E  C R E A T O R S  I N T E R V I E W  0 1

例年以上に多忙な中での制作となった「天空璋」。
全体はもちろん、各部分も振り返ってもらいその細部に宿る意図に迫ってみた。

'Hidden Star in Four Seasons', made in a year busier than others.
Overall, of course, even stopping to check every detail.

――

前作にあたる「紺珠伝」がそうでしたが、タイトルにキャラ名が入らないシリーズに突入したのでしょうか?

It was like this in your previous work, Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom, too, but is this now a series that doesn't put kanji from character's names in the titles?

ZUN

もともと入らないシリーズでしたからね。

It was never a series where I put those in the titles.

――

ええー。

Really now?

ZUN

それはともかく、タイトルに入っている「璋」の字は、本来は「障碍神」としての「障」だったんです。ロゴも作ってみたんですが、どうにも微妙だったので王編の字を使って現在のタイトルにしました。

But anyway, the character 璋 from the title was originally 障 from 障碍神 (hindering god). I'd even made the logo with that, but that felt off, so I made the current title using the character from the 王 radical.[1]

――

変更した「璋」も天の柄杓、北斗七星を指すわけですから、いずれにしても隠岐奈を表す字だったわけですね。

But even the new title with 璋 refers to the seven stars making up the Big Dipper, so the kanji ended up highlighting Okina anyway.

ZUN

体験版のところどころに、FIX前のタイトルであるところの「天星璋」がまぎれちゃってるんだけど、まあ意味としては同じですよね。ただサブタイトルに「Hidden Starsって星が入っているのにメインタイトルでも星が入ってるのはなんだかなってことで、語感的なところも含めて「天空璋」になったんです。

A few instances of the previous title ended up slipping into the trial version, but, well, they mean the same thing. But since both the main title and the subtitle, "Hidden Stars", both ended up with stars in them, 天空璋 ended up with a little nuance too.

――

サブタイトルは意味ありげですけど、じつはあまり無いですよね?

The subtitle is suggestive, but it doesn't really mean anything, does it?

ZUN

たしかに、あんまり無いよね。一応隠岐奈のことを指してるって言えばそう、くらい。

You're right, it doesn't, does it? I mean, I guess it sounds like it's referring to Okina?

――

ああ、「秘神」だから、四季を通じて隠れている。今回、4種類の装備を4キャラに自由に付け替えられるっていうシステムは、ありそうでなかったですね。

Yeah, she's a hidden god, so she's hiding in the four seasons. The gameplay system this time where four characters can freely swap between different kinds of equipment sure was unexpected.

ZUN

最初のアイデアはもっと複雑だったんです。当初の予定では、Extraで解放される5つ目の季節「土用」は本編で解放して、本編をもう一周しないとExtraに行けないようにするつもりだったんですよ。そうしたら真のエンディングを見られるようになる、っていう構成で、でも制作の手間が増えることはもちろん、ゲームとして単純にダルくなると想ってね。「永夜抄」みたいなものをイメージして貰えばいいと思うんだけど。

My first idea was more complicated. The original plan was to have the fifth season, Doyou, that's unlocked in the Extra stage instead be unlocked for the main game. And then you wouldn't be able to go to the Extra stage until you cleared it again with Doyou. And then you'd be able to see the true ending. That was the plan, but not only would that obviously increase my workload, I also thought it'd be simply tedious for the game. You can picture it as something like Imperishable Night though.

――

なるほど。

I see.

ZUN

一周目の最終ステージでは装備が全部奪われることになるんだけど、二周目は奪われずに倒す、という展開にしたかったんだよね。でも、真のエンディングをExtraに持ってきた方がストーリーもわかりやすくなったし、ダルさも回避できたのでゲームとしては良くなったと思ってます。

So the first time through she'd steal your equipment in the final stage, but on the second you'd be able to beat her. That kind of development. But the story was easier to understand with the true ending after the Extra stage, and I also thought it'd be better for the game not to have that repetitiveness.

――

ちなみにその展開だった場合は、誰がExtraのボスになっていたんでしょうか。

Incidentally, if that had happened, who would the Extra boss have been?

ZUN

また別のキャラが登場していたでしょうね。まあでも、初期アイデアだとExtraまでが長い! と思ってね。「永夜抄」のときはそこがタルかったのが反省でさ。あまりむやみにボリュームを増やしても仕方ないと思ったの。簡単にゲームのボリュームを増やせるやり方ではあるんですよね。二周しなきゃいけなくさせるのは。

I probably would have just introduced a new character again. But, well, regarding my original idea I just thought "that's way too long until the Extra stage!" I regret having that dull part of Imperishable Night. I thought I couldn't help it if I was excessively lengthening the game. It's an easy way of adding content to a game. I made everyone play it twice.

――

やらなきゃいけないことが増えますからね。

Since there are more things you're required to do.

ZUN

もっと言うと、5個目の装備を出すためにはすべての季節装備でクリアしないといけない、くらいのことを考えていました。それぞれの装備の進行度を用意してさ、それを管理しながらプレイしていくみたいな感じで。進行度も最後までクリアしなくても貯まるように、みたいなことを考えていたんだけど、面倒くさいな、そんなのユーザーが楽しむのかなって思って。

To be perfectly frank, I even considered having you unlock the 5th season by clearing the game with all four other seasons. It would have had, like, separate progress meters for each season so you'd keep track of those while playing. I was thinking stuff like: "it'll add progress even if you don't clear to the end." But in the end it was just too much of a pain, and would the users even enjoy that?

――

もう別のゲームですよね(笑)。

That'd be a completely different game (lol).

ZUN

説明も面倒だしね。あとはもう今の状態とは別に、特定のキャラと装備の組み合わせだとラスボスに会えなくてもいいかな、とかも考えました。でも、それで他のキャラに変えたら一からやり直しになっちゃうからやっぱりタルいなって。Extraも5個目の季節じゃなくて、すべての季節装備を装備することも考えたりしたんだけど、単純に攻撃がバラバラになるだけで面白くはなかった。そんなこんなで結果的にできあがったものから見れば、今みたいなゲームを最初から構想していたんだろうなっていうことに見える(笑)。

See? Even explaining it is a pain. Another thing that's different from now is that I was wondering if maybe certain combinations of characters and weapons wouldn't be able to meet the final boss. Stuff like that. But then you'd have to start from scratch whenever you switched characters, so that'd have been lame. I also considered stuff like instead of having the 5th season in the Extra stage, you'd have all the seasons equipped at once, but just by having your attacks go everywhere it became less fun. With all that in mind, when you look back on the final product, it makes you think "wow, this game must have been planned this way from the beginning." (lol)

――

(笑)。

(lol)

ZUN

普通にクリアするんだけど、どれをそうしてもバッドエンドっぽいエンディングになっちゃうのは最初の構想の名残ですね。本当はもう一周して倒すことを考えていたわけだから。

But the part where you clear the game normally and get what seems like a bad ending is left over from the original idea. I had really thought you'd play through again and beat her.

――

同じキャラと二回戦うのはちょっと懐かしい感じがしました。

Fighting the same character twice felt a bit nostalgic.

ZUN

6面とExtraに分けて戦うようにして良かったと思う。6面までクリアしたら、Extraで誰がボスとして出てくるかみんなわかると思うんだけど、今までにないパターンで良かったですね。

I thought it'd be nice to fight her in both the 6th and Extra stages. I know everyone's always wondering who the Extra boss will be when they clear the 6th stage, so I wanted to try something different this time.

――

季節解放は「妖々夢」の森羅結界に近いプレイ感でした。それ以外にもボムを使ってねって感じる部分もいっぱいありましたし。夏とか土用が使いやすいですね。

The seasonal release playstyle felt close to the cherry borders in Perfect Cherry Blossom. Not only that, but there were lots of parts where it felt like you don't need to use bombs. Summer and Doyou are especially easy to use.

ZUN

本編のストーリーから考えると季節解放は敵の力だから、あまり使わないほうがいいんですよ、本来はノーショットノーボムが理想(笑)。

Well, if you think about the story of the main game, the seasonal release is your enemy's power. So you should try to use it as little as possible. The true ideal is no-shooting, no-bomb (lol).

――

それもうシューティングゲームじゃなくて避けげーですよね?(笑)

Is that even a shooting game anymore? It's a dodging game. (lol)

ZUN

自前のショットはいいんですよ。あれは我慢しなくてもいいの。

You can use your own shot. You don't need to hold back with that.

――

キャラごとにストーリーに対してしっかり役割があります。

The characters each have a clear role in their stories.

ZUN

「なぜこのキャラをプレイヤーキャラに選んだのか」っていう部分が、これまでは不足していましたからね。以前のものは「同じストーリーに対して、選んだキャラによって見え方が違う」くらいでしかなかったので、今回はそれぞれ違うストーリーにしてみようと。だから惰性で選ぶキャラをあまり出さないように心がけました。強いて言えば霊夢と魔理沙は必ずついてくるので、その二人はどうしても似たような話になる。だからあの二人に関しては今まで通りのやり方で、他のキャラのストーリーの作り方を変えていけばいいのかなって考えています。

It's because I felt that I'd never really answered "why did I choose this character to be playable?" before. Until now it's been limited to "the chosen character sees the same story from a different perspective," so I wanted to try each of them having a different story. So I made sure not to choose the same characters I always do. Reimu and Marisa are always forced to be there, so they'll have pretty similar stories. But that's why I thought that maybe I had to change up the other characters' stories in ways I've never done before.

――

霊夢は本編らしいストーリーでしたよね。幻想郷とは、みたいな話を絡めつつ、なぜ隠岐奈が異変を起こしたかが一番わかりやすい。それに対して魔理沙は魔理沙というキャラにフォーカスしつつも、隠岐奈のキャラを掘り下げていくじゃないですか。魔理沙をスカウトしてみたりとか。

Reimu's story felt like a main story. It seemed like it was tied up with Gensokyo itself, and it was the easiest to understand why Okina caused the incident. In contrast, Marisa's route focused more on Marisa as a character, and didn't really dig into Okina as much. Like Marisa was a scout or something.

ZUN

今回ストーリーの理解を深めるためにはクリアする順番がけっこう重要ですからね。オススメは霊夢→魔理沙→チルノ→文の順番で、いきなり文からクリアしても意味がわからない人が多いかもしれない。

In order to make sense of the story, it's important to clear it in the right order. The recommended order is Reimu → Marisa → Cirno → Aya. Maybe a lot of people started with Aya and had no idea what was going on.

エタニティラルバ

Eternity Larva

――

ネタが豊富な1面ボスでした。

The stage 1 boss with a lot to her.

ZUN

今回はどのキャラも役割を持った立ち位置にしているんです。まずチルノが一人だけ浮かないように対のキャラとしての役割があります。妖精が暴走しているのが異変の本体なので、チルノとラルバが戦っているシーンが異変の一番のクライマックスです。表象的な部分では、あのキャラがいないとチルノはExtraに行けないですしね。チルノだけ4面クリア後に自分の背中でラスボスに挑むじゃないですか。

This time every character has a role to play. First of all, she's there so Cirno isn't just floating around by herself. The real incident is the fairies going crazy, so the fight scene between Cirno and Larva is the most climactic moment of the incident. And symbolically, if she weren't there Cirno wouldn't be able to get to the Extra stage. Isn't Cirno the only one who jumped into her own back after stage 4 to challenge the last boss?

――

隠岐奈のキャラ性の補強というか、常世神と敵対した者といえば、というところと「普段は目立たない奴らが表に出てきている」というのは物語のヒントだったんですよね。

Maybe this was to reinforce Okina's nature as someone opposed to Tokoyojin, but it was kind of like "this is someone who doesn't normally stand showing their true face." You left a hint for a story like that.

ZUN

まあ犯人探しがゲームの目的ではないですからね。全体のちぐはぐ感がない感じにしたかった。

Well, the game isn't about finding the culprit. I just wanted to make it feel like it wasn't just a random assortment of people.

――

ボス曲は名前がシェイクスピアというかメンデルスゾーンというか。鱗粉のキラキラ感がありました。

Her boss theme brings to mind Shakespeare or Mendelssohn. It gives the image of moth scales sparkling.

ZUN

夜ではないんだけどね。妖精と夏ときたら、どうしてもそのへんが引っかかっちゃうから。これに関してはなんのひねりも無い(笑)。曲名は結局ステージまで作りきった後から考えるから、特に1面とかは悩むんですよね。道中局の「希望の星」はプレイヤーのことで、ステージ最中に森の上空に飛び上がる感じをそのまま採用します。

It's not night though. It's just that when you think fairies and summer, you always end up drawn into that. There's no secret twist here (lol). I name the song after making the stage, so stage 1 tracks are especially hard to come up with. The "star of hope" from the stage theme is the player, so I used the feeling of flying in the sky above the forest like you do in the stage.

――

キャラのデザインについてなんですが。

So what about her character design?

ZUN

正直に、複雑にしてしまったので描いてて後悔する(笑)。僕はともかく、ほかのヒトが漫画で描くときにアゲハの模様とかが大変そう。

To be honest, I regret drawing her with a complex design (lol). Not just for my sake, but for all the people who'll have to draw that swallowtail butterfly pattern in their comics.

――

成虫・さなぎ・幼虫の全部がデザインに取り入れられているのは「三位一体=完全=神=常世神」ということなんでしょうか。

By incorporating the imago, pupa, and larva into her design, were you trying to suggest "Trinity = Perfection = God = Tokoyojin"?

ZUN

成虫の妖精というよりは、昆虫として完全変態する妖精、というイメージなんです。さなぎをどこに入れたらいいんだ? ってところが特に困りました。無理矢理入ってますけど。

I was picturing that instead of just being a fairy of the adult form, she'd be a fairy of the insect itself, its complete metamorphosis. I was especially worried over whether or not I should put the pupa in too, even though I ended up cramming it in anyway.

――

セリフとか見た目とか、弱そうなポジションだけどアレ? って思うくらいに盛りだくさんですよね。

Based on her lines and appearance she seems weak, but you made a lot of people go "wait, what?"

ZUN

でしょう? だから強そうな名前にしたんです。最初に名前を見たときにFFの隠しボスでも出てきたのかな? って感じがしましたよ。当初は「ラルバ」じゃなくて「ラーヴァ」だったんですが、もっと強そうになっちゃって。完全に洞窟の奥とかに構えてそうなヤバイやつ臭が出てきて、「あ、これ世界観が違うやつだ」って思ってラルバになりました。

Right? That's why I gave her a strong-sounding name. Like, when you first see her name you're wondering if an FF secret boss just showed up, right? At first, it was ラーヴァ (laava) instead of ラルバ (laruba), but that made her sound too strong. Like, that was definitely something dangerous that hides deep in a cave. So I thought Larva would give more of that "ah, this person sees the world differently" feel.

坂田ネムノ

Nemuno Sakata

ZUN

1面にネタを詰めたおかげで2面は普通です。

The 1st boss had too much crammed into her so the 2nd boss is normal.

――

妖怪としては大定番ですよね。

A staple of classic youkai.

ZUN

有名だけどゲームではほとんど出無いよね。今だったらもう「ヤマンバギャル」くらいしか知られて無いかと思って。

They're famous, but don't show up in games too often. About the only one I know of these days is "Yamanba Gal".[2]

――

今……かなあ。

"These days"... are you sure?

ZUN

最初は見た目をヤマンバギャル風にしようと思ってすごく悩んだんですよ。化粧の濃いメイクにしようかって想像してみたんだけど、なんか悲しくなってきて。

At first I wanted to make her look like a Yamanba Gal, but then I felt really conflicted. When I pictured her in heavy make-up, I felt strangely sad.

――

渋谷の街に大量にいたヤマンバギャルも幻想入りした、みたいな?

Like all the Yamanba Gals who used to walk the streets of Shibuya have entered fantasy?

ZUN

絶対面白いのはわかるんだけど、そういうことじゃないなって。出落ち感が強すぎてね。そうする勇気がなかったのかもしれない。

I can definitely see how that's funny, but no, that wasn't it. Like, the immediate comical impact was too strong. Maybe I just didn't have the courage.

――

オタクの中にギャルブームはきててもヤマンバはきてないですしね……。あとは山姥+金太郎ネタが多かったです。

So even if the Gal fad is becoming popular among geeks, Yamanba won't... There were a lot of stories about Yamanba and Kintarou though.

ZUN

山姥の扱いも微妙に難しくてね。存在自体は有名だけど基本的に怖い役や敵役、悲しい話になっちゃうから、いい話があるとしたら金太郎くらいになっちゃう。今回は、それぞれすべてのステージにプレイヤーキャラクターと対応したボスが配置されているので、2面に関してはステージが秋ということで、情報化社会の天狗と、情報を断ち切っている山姥を対比させているわけです。天狗と山姥とが友好的にいるためには不可侵条約を結ぶ、お互い関わらないことにするしかないという。

It's weirdly difficult to use a Yamanba. They're widely recognized, but they're fundamentally just scary villains, so they're always in sad stories. Kintarou is about the only favorable portrayal of them. In this game, I had each of the stages and bosses correspond to a playable character, so since stage 2 is autumn, I contrasted the information society of the tengu with a yamanba who cuts herself off from the world. In order to coexist peacefully, they formed a non-aggression pact so neither of them will have anything to do with the other.

――

デザイン的にはかなり古典的イメージに近いです。

Her design is pretty close to the classic image.

ZUN

秋っぽい格好にしたかったけど、結構寒そうな感じになっちゃった。イメージから考えると原始人ルック的なものしか難しいけど、シンプルにまとめられたとは思います。ボロボロな感じにしてみすぼらしさを出したくはなかったから。適当に作るとぼろきれを纏うのが正解なんだけど……。

I wanted to make her look autumn-ish, but doesn't she seem like she'd be cold in that? When picturing her it was tough to stick with the caveman look, but I think I was able to keep it simple. I mean, I didn't want her to look ragged or shabby. It's true that she's wearing old rags she randomly stitched together though...

――

振り返って思ったのは「風神録」2面にも「秘神」は出てたなと。

Thinking back, you had a "hidden god" show up in Mountain of Faith stage 2, too.

ZUN

今回の山姥に関しては、ゲームが普段からでてこないキャラが表に出てくるというのがあったので、こういうのもいたんだよというのを見せられたらと思っています。有名なわりにあまりゲーム作品には登場しないけど、今回キャラを作って山姥がゲームに登場しない理由がよくわかりましたよ。微妙に扱いづらいんです、華やかなわけでもないし、おばあさんのイメージが強いから。

Going back to the yamanba part, she was a type of character who doesn't normally show up in games, so I thought I'd show people that these kinds of things exist too. I said that they're disproportionately rare in games given how famous they are, but after putting one in my game I know why. They're weirdly difficult to use, aren't especially flashy, and have a strong "old lady" image to them.

高麗野あうん

Aunn Komano

――

この手のキャラはこれまで出なかったですよね、3面4面と。

For both stages 3 and 4, you made the kind of characters you've never made before.

ZUN

狛犬にそんなネタないしねえ。有名になったのは「妖怪ウォッチ」の「コマさん」くらいかなあ。というかそこしか知らないかもしれない。「ジバニャン」は猫の地縛霊っていうのはわかるんだけど、コマさんは何なの?

There just aren't many works with komainu, you know? The most famous one is Komasan from Yokai Watch, I think? Actually, that might be the only one I know. I get that Jibanyan comes from a cat who's a bound spirit (jibakurei), but what's with Komasan?

――

普通の、田舎の狛犬です。

It's just a normal countryside komainu.

ZUN

あうんが狛犬であることに深い理由はないんですが、その顛末は「茨歌仙」で語られていますので、そちらをご覧いただければと。他のキャラの話も、いろいろなところで出てくるかもですよ。あ、でも名前は結構悩みました。結果、あうんという……、どうにもキャラ感が出ちゃってるのが今でも気になってます。あれでよかったのかなあと。

There's a deeper meaning to Aunn being a komainu, but that's covered in Wild and Horned Hermit, so please go read that. You might learn something about the other characters there too. Oh, but I did spend a while worrying about her name. Even now, I'm still worried that Aunn doesn't really sound like a character name... Well, maybe that's okay?

――

でも狛犬って結構不思議な存在じゃありません?

But aren't komainu pretty mysterious beings?

ZUN

由来もなんだかんだでよくわからないしね。どこまでさかのぼったらいいんだろう、スフィンクス? それに、なんのためにいるのかとか、そういう風習がなんで広がったのかとか、バリエーションがすごい多いとかいろいろ興味深い。なのであうんの服は「かりゆし」チックにしています。

Because we don't know all that much about their origins. If we go can go as far back as we want, maybe the Sphinx? Why are they there, why did the tradition spread so far? There are all kinds of variations, so it's all very interesting. That's why I made Aunn's clothes joyful and chic.

矢田寺成美

Narumi Yadatera

――

他のキャラもそうですが、あうんと成美が特に表情がすごく豊かですよね。

The other characters have some too, but Aunn and Narumi in particular have some great expressions.

ZUN

危機感もないけど敵意も基本無いからね。そういえば名前の表記の件なんだけど、自分でもちょっと混乱してて。

Because not only is there no sense of danger, there's no hostility either. But come to think of it, there's that little matter of how to write her name. Even I'm confused.

――

会話時の名前がポップする際には「成美」表記で、戦いになった時の体力ゲージ横に書いてあるのが「Naruko」、そして魔理沙だけが「成子」呼びです。

The pop-up with her name during conversation says 'Narumi', but in battle the horizontal name under her health bar says 'Naruko' in Latin letters. Also, Marisa alone calls her 'Naruko' in kanji.

ZUN

となると「成美」が正しいような気がする。当初は「成子」だったんですが、後に修正されて「成美」になって、それが修正しきってないんですね。

In that case, I'm pretty sure 'Narumi' is the correct one. It was 'Naruko' at first, but then I later changed it to 'Narumi' and some parts weren't corrected.

――

魔理沙がつけたニックネームかと。

I thought it was a nickname Marisa gave her.

ZUN

まあ、両方に意味があってどちらでも大丈夫っちゃ大丈夫なんだけど「◯◯子」っていう名前が多いから微妙かなえ。ポップアップの部分が最初に直す部分だから、そっちが正しいはずです。最初は多分成子こけしのイメージがって名付けてたはず。

Well, in terms of meaning they're both fine, but there are so many people named X-ko that I have to be careful. The pop-up is the first thing I'd change, so that one should be correct. I probably originally named her after those Naruko kokeshi dolls.

――

矢田寺は有名なお地蔵さんの一つがある場所ですが、有名なお地蔵さんってなんだかひどい目にあってるのが多いですよね。ぐるぐる巻きとか。

Yadatera is the name of a place with a famous Jizo statue, but a lot of terrible things happen to famous Jizo statues. Like getting wrapped up.

ZUN

多いよね。お化粧してたり川に投げ込まれたり、引きずり回されたり。それくらい民衆に近い場所にいる、ということなのかもしれないけどさ。なにやっても許してくれるのかな。

Yeah, it happens a lot. Like getting make-up put on them, thrown in the river, or dragged around. But maybe that's just what you should expect for anything that's close to populated areas. I wonder if they'll forgive us for anything.

――

デザイン的には直球で笠地蔵です。

Design-wise, she's a straightforward straw-hatted Jizo.

ZUN

ステージが冬だからね。誰かが被せてるんだよ。

Because the stage is winter. Someone put it there.

――

「永夜抄」で魔理沙が「お地蔵さんに笠をかぶせて回ったのも、全てはアリスがやった」って言ってましたが。

In Imperishable Night, Marisa says "...And putting hats on statues, it's all Alice's fault." So?

ZUN

ようやくその伏線が回収されたよね(笑)。成美ももうお地蔵さんではなくて、存在としては魔法使いになっています。魔法の森に住んでいて、魔力の影響を受けたよくわからない存在です。あまり地蔵感はなくなってるの。

That foreshadowing finally pays off (lol). And Narumi isn't a Jizo statue anymore, she's become a magician. She lives in the Forest of Magic and thanks to the effect of the magical energy is now a poorly understood being. She's losing that Jizo impression.

――

ステージ曲はイントロからかなり冬の旅感が出てます。

Her stage theme gives quite a "winter journey" feeling, starting from the intro.

ZUN

もうちょっとキラキラした音とか静かな音とかのほうが冬っぽさは出るのかもしれないけれど、爽やかな冬っていう感じにしたかったので今の格好に落ち着きました。

With a few more glittery sounds or quiet sounds, maybe I could've made it sounds even more wintery, but I wanted to go for a more refreshing winter so it settled into what it is now.

――

そしてボス曲では爽やかさから一転してヘヴィな感じに。

And then coming from that refreshing theme, you get to her heavy boss theme.

ZUN

いきなり重低音感がね。地蔵だから仕方ないよね。ドッスンドッスンくるイメージを狙っています。吹雪に流されずにどっしりしてるとしたら地蔵だよな。そしたらこういう曲だよなって。そして冬の地蔵だったら笠地蔵だよねって。

Bass out of nowhere. She's a Jizo, so what else could I do? I was aiming for a "pounding" kind of image. The blizzard isn't letting up, and here's this weighty Jizo. So that's what the track is. And it's winter so she's a hatted Jizo.

爾子田里乃&丁礼田舞

Satono Nishida & Mai Teireida

――

5面ボスの名前は初見だとまず読めないですよね。

When I first saw the stage 5 bosses' names, I couldn't read them.

ZUN

爾子田も最初は「西田」にしようかと思ったんだけど、あまりにも普通の名前すぎてやめました(笑)。西田敏行のイメージが強いし。かといって元のままの名前にしておくのもダサいから、「田」にしたほうが見た目的には苗字っぽくなるかなと思って。

Nishida (爾子田) was originally going to be Nishida (西田), but that was kinda too normal of a name (lol). The image of Toshiyuki Nishida is powerful. That said, it'd also be lame to keep her with her original name, so I thought leaving in the 田 (da) would make it look like a surname.

――

操られているとはいえ大変そうではありますが、あの二人は元の性格も軽い感じなんでしょうか?

Being manipulated sounds awful, but doesn't it feel like their original personalities were really easy-going?

ZUN

たぶんね。そういう人しか選ばれない。

Probably. Only people like that get chosen.

――

見た目もモチーフにかなり忠実な感じですが、スペルカード名に「茗荷」が来るとインパクトがあるというか、笑わせられますよね。

Their appearance and motif give the impression of being quite loyal, but then the spellcard with "ginger" in its name comes up and I don't know if it was the impact or what, but it made me laugh.

ZUN

茗荷はいいよね、いろいろ伝説があって。元だと二人がそれぞれ竹と茗荷を持ってるんだけど、竹担当と茗荷担当に分けました。そっちのほうがキャラとしては絶対に面白くなるじゃないですか。結果、竹のようにスパッとした性格と、茗荷のように訳のわからない、おっとり系の性格に。

There's nothing weird about ginger. It's in all sorts of legends. Originally they were both going to hold both bamboo and ginger, but they split the bamboo duty and ginger duty. Doesn't that definitely make them more interesting as characters? This way, you've got the impulsive bamboo personality, and the incomprehensible, quiet-type ginger personality.

――

あの二人にまったく悲壮感がないのが逆に怖いなと。

I feel like the two of them project so little air of tragedy that it's actually kind of creepy.

ZUN

ゾッとしちゃうよね。音楽も怖いんだけど、軽いし、リズム的にも気持ちいいよね。ノリノリでダンスしてるというかさせられてるというか。

Sends chills up your spine, right? The music is creepy too, but it's light, and the rhythm feels good. Like you'll get into it and start to dance.

――

これまでの作品でも5面ボスの曲は、特徴的なものが多い気がします。

I get the feeling that's true for a lot of the stage 5 boss themes you've made.

ZUN

唯一、ゲーム全体を通しての「中ボス感」を出すのがそこなんだよね。ラスボスではないけど、絶対にボス感を出す必要があるから。ひととおりいろいろな曲を聴いてくると5面のボスが気になってくる人がいるかもしれないけど、それも通り過ぎると元の普通にかっこいい曲がよく聴こえてきたり、もしくはすべてを通り越してもう全然音楽とは呼びづらいものがよく思えてきたりするかもしれない。王道側に戻りたいよね。

That's just what happens when I give them a "midboss of the entire game" feel. Since they're not the last boss, but definitely need that boss feel. Maybe some people would become interested in the 5th boss while listening to all sorts of common music, but if you go past that you'd start to hear a lot of classically standard-cool music, or maybe even go too far beyond and end up with something that it'd be hard to call music at all. I just want to return to the side of justice.

――

道中も厳しくかつ不気味な感じです。

The stage theme is also harsh, and even unnerving.

ZUN

完成したゲーム版ではそこそこだけど、制作途中に音楽とステージの背景だけがある状態のときが相当不気味でしたよ。なんだろうこれ、本当にこれでいいのかなって感じは出てた。

And that's just the final version. You should've seen it mid-production: just the music and backgrounds were enough to be unnerving. It was like, what is this, is this really okay?

摩多羅隠岐奈

Okina Matara

――

6面道中はボーナスステージといつもおっしゃってますが。

You always say that stage 6 is a bonus stage, but...

ZUN

激しいですけど、すぐ終わっちゃいますよね。この道中を、奥へ奥へと進んでいく感じが伝わるようにするための表現が若干難しかったかなあ。

It's relentless, but it's over before you know it. For this stage, I wanted to convey the feeling of moving deeper and deeper in, but maybe that was hard to portray with the presentation?

――

メインのメロディ、細かく刻んでいく部分が踏み込んでいくのを感じました。

The main melody, the part with the quick beat, made me feel like I was intruding.

ZUN

データ的にも背景を奥にどんどん入っていくというのをストレートに作るのは結構大変なので、できるだけ省エネでも伝わるようになるかを両立させるのが一番苦労しました。でも悩む時間はそんなに持てないから速攻で作るんだけど、そういうのも楽しい。

Even data-wise, having you gradually enter the background is pretty tough to play straight, and trying to convey that as efficiently as possible was the hardest part. But since I didn't have time to worry about it and just had to get it done right away, that was pretty fun too.

――

そしてボスですが、たしかに摩多羅で翁だなあと。

And as for the boss, it was like "guess it really is old man Matara..."[3]

ZUN

そのまんまですよね。今回はストレートに元ネタにしたかったんですよね。それが作品に現れてる。僕としては摩多羅神が幻想入りしているのを感じたので、じゃあもうそんなにひねる必要がないなあと。

Pretty much. This time I wanted to play the inspiration straight. And that's what shows up in the work. Personally, I felt like Matarajin was entering fantasy, so I didn't need to thrown in a twist.

――

摩多羅神でありつつ、秦河勝の影もチラチラ見えるような。河勝なら常世神や、狛犬とも繋がりがあるわけで。

Even though it's Matarajin, you can also catch glimpses of Hata no Kawakatsu. If it's Kawakatsu, then there are connections to Tokoyojin and komainus.

ZUN

本質の部分がね。でも能楽の神にしておくことによって、こころと繋がりが持てたら美味しいんじゃないかなって。

That's part of her true nature. But by leaving her as just a god of noh, it kind of became "wouldn't it be delicious if she had some connection to Kokoro?"

――

河勝ネタはこころで終わったと思ってました。

And here I thought we'd be done with Kawakatsu after Kokoro.

ZUN

逆に言うと、そこ以外で活かせる部分が少ないんだよね。謎すぎて。僕としては河原者の部分を活かしたかったんだけど、そこを押し出しちゃうとゲーム全体に道徳臭が出ちゃいそうで嫌な感じになりそうだったから。

To flip it around though, it doesn't show many of her other sides. It's too mysterious. Personally I wanted to show her as a beggar, but if I crammed that in the game would start to reek of a morality play. That'd leave a bad taste in my mouth.

――

今回、障碍の神を称する翁が幻想郷で自分の存在を誇示するために、全面に出てくるという話だったわけじゃないですか。他のキャラもそうですけど、隠れていた者がわざわざ出てきたというのは、逆説的に現実の世界ではどんどん隠れなきゃいけなくなってる存在が出てくる、という構図なのかなと。

The story wasn't just about an old man calling herself a god of hindrances announcing her existence to Gensokyo, was it? To the other characters it was, but for the hidden person to intentionally show themselves, while paradoxically becoming more and more a being that needs to hide from the real world... I was wondering if it had something to do with that?

ZUN

そこまでは考えすぎかもなあ。

That might be overthinking it.

――

Extraをクリアして最初に思い浮かんだのは、津久井やまゆり園の殺傷事件なんですよ。

My first thought after clearing the Extra stage was the Tsukui Yamayurien massacre.[4]

ZUN

痛ましい事件ですよね。思うところはいっぱいありました。

That was a heartbreaking incident. I've thought about it a lot.

――

そういう人たちの代表である障碍の神が、むしろ我こそはここにありと逆に目立って、幻想郷で活躍する、という……。

For a god of the disabled who represents those people to conversely proclaim that "I am here" and draw attention to herself through her activities in Gensokyo would mean...

ZUN

むしろそういう人たちのほうが強いぞ、くらいのところを見せたかったんですよね。最初のテーマは僕的にはそんな感じだった。でも、それだけで気持ちいいストーリーにするのは難しい。作中、セリフではやたら河原者だとか虐げられたとか言うんだけど、実際にそういうストーリーの部分はほぼなくなっていて、天狗は同じ存在であるみたいなことも言うけど、説明も解決もないから結局よくわからないままにしているんです。あまり言わせちゃうと小うるさい感じになるし、もっとわかりやすいイメージにしても良かったのかもしれないけれど、そうすると障碍者の方を揶揄するようになりかねない。当初ラスボスは車椅子に乗って出てくるというイメージだったんだけど、本当に難しくてね。その名残で今は椅子に座っています。

I wanted to show that actually, those people are the stronger ones. To me, the original theme was something like that. But it's hard to make a story that feels good with just that. In a story, you often throw out lines about beggars or the oppressed, but in actuality there are hardly any parts of the story about them. I can write stuff about the tengu being the same kind of being, but without an explanation or a resolution it just doesn't make much sense in the end. It's gotten easy to be accidentally insensitive, so you might think that it's be better to go for an easier-to-understand image, but then you could wind up making fun of the disabled. At first the final boss was going to ride in a wheelchair, but that was really difficult. What's left of that is her sitting in a chair.

――

当事者ではないし、本当に難しいですよね……。

It really is difficult to discuss, if you're not affected personally...

ZUN

テーマとして正面から扱うには難しかったですね。最初の考え通りタイトルの文字が「障」だったら、やっぱり賛否両論になって揉めてた気がする。なので今回は、もとは障碍者に限らず被差別民的な人たちの集まりが幻想郷になる場所に集まってきていて、そんな幻想郷を作った一人でもある隠岐奈が現れた、というのをやりたかったんだよね。

As a theme, it was difficult to address directly. If I'd used my original title with the kanji for "impairment", I get the feeling there'd be a mixed reaction. So instead, it became about all kinds of the discriminated, not just the disabled, gathering in the land that would become Gensokyo. And Okina showing up as one of the people who made Gensokyo a place for that kind of person. That's what I wanted to do.

――

幻想郷の成り立ちの話はこれまで触れられてなかったので踏み込んだ印象です。言われてみれば、不便な山間部で外部との交流もあまりない場所に集落ができたきっかけを考えると、そういう可能性はあったわけです。

I get the impression that we've never delved that deeply into Gensokyo's origins. Now that you mention it, that does make sense as an explanation for a making a settlement in an inconvenient mountainous area cut off from contact with the outside world.

ZUN

どうしてもみんな差別されてきた側の人間を考えずにはいられないよね。そういう話をインタビューでいうと、そういう意図だったんだっていうことになるけど、これをゲーム中でやると本当にウザくなっちゃう。説教くさいというか何で楽しんでいいのやら、っていうゲームになっちゃうから。

I just can't help but think about everyone who's been discriminated against. This is the kind of thing I can talk about in interviews, but if I did it in the game itself it'd just be annoying. It'd be preachy. Who'd find that fun?

――

そういえば河勝が祀られている神社って「おおさけ神社」じゃないですか。

Come to think of it, isn't the shrine that deified Kawakatsu called the "Oosake Shrine"?

ZUN

あのネーミングいいよね。「大酒」と「大避」の両方があるのも大好き。いろいろな由来があるけど、向こうの戦火を避けてきたのかなあ。

That's a great name. You can read it as either "heavy drinking" or "heavy dodging" and I like it both ways. It's got all sorts of history, but it managed to avoid getting burnt down in the wars, huh?

――

天台宗の一派が持ち込んだと言われる摩多羅神ですが、中世の天台宗系や真言宗系でやたら性的な儀式にハマって邪教化した挙句滅ぶみたいなのもありますよね。

Matarajin is said to belong to a particular Tendai sect, but I hear that during the middle ages a lot of Tendai and Shingon sects end up becoming obsessed with sexual rituals and wicked teachings, leading to their downfall.

ZUN

あのあたりも面白いからネタにしたくはあったんだけど、どうしても下品になっちゃうからね。

That kind of stuff is interesting too, and I did prepare some materials with that, but that would make it too vulgar.

――

そのことがちらついたから「摩」「羅」が「多」いの!? と見えて一瞬驚きました。

But because of that stuff, I was shocked when I first saw "MaRa is large?!"[5]

ZUN

そのへんは「女神転生」のマーラ神とかのおかげでみんなに抵抗感がなくなってるから大丈夫(笑)。

Don't worry, Mara from Megami Tensei has desensitized everyone. (lol)

――

曲名にある「秘神マターラ」ですが、摩多羅神のルーツの一つともいえる母神の名前なので、隠岐奈は女体化されてるわけではないんですよね。

In the song "Hidden God Matara" you use the name of the mother goddess said to be one of Matarajin's roots, so in that sense Okina isn't gender-swapped.[6]

ZUN

マーラ自体が言ってしまえば「摩」でもあり「魔」なわけですよ。日本で言うところの「魔」ってだいたいそこから来てるんじゃないだろうかなって。だいたいの使われ方が「魔が差す」みたいに「魔」の一文字で済ませることがほとんどだけど、その語源はわからない。そこまでいくと「魔」の言葉は向こうから来たのかな、魔法とも繋がっていたのかな、なんて想像が膨らみますよね。基本的にアヤシイものなんですよ。

If I had to say, the 'ma' in Mara is both 摩 and 魔 (magic/demon). The way we use 魔 in Japanese basically starts from there, doesn't it? Most of the time when you'd use 魔が差す (succumb to temptation), using just the word 魔 would usually work. I don't know the etymology though. And once you get that far, you start to wonder if maybe 魔 comes from the other side, or if it was connected to magic (魔法) and other wild imaginings like that. It's fundamentally something suspicious.

振り返ってみて

Looking Back

――

どうでしたか、手ごたえとか。

So how was it? Like, the reactions?

ZUN

いっぱいいっぱいでしたね。今もいっぱいいっぱい。でもまあ、気持ちいいんじゃないかな。ストーリーはちょっと気持ち悪いところもあるけど、最終的にはいつも通りかなって。もっとああしたかった、こうしたかった、そういうことはいっぱいあるけれど、すべては次に活かしていけたらいい。なんにしてももうちょっと時間がほしかった感はある(笑)。こんな感じでよかったのか、というのが今の悩みといえば悩みかな。考えても答えが出てくることじゃないからね、できることといえば作ることだけだし、自分のできること以上を求めないのが大切な生き方なのかもしれない。

There were tons and tons. Heck, there still are. But, well, doesn't it feel nice? Parts of the story are a bit unpleasant, but in the end it's the same as always. Of course I feel like I wanted to do more of this or that, but it's fine as long as I put all that into my next work. Mostly I just wish I'd had more time (lol). I still worry over whether it was alright to do things like that, and that sort of thing. But no matter how much I worry about it, I won't ever get an answer, so all I can do is keep creating. It might be important to live life without wishing for more than you're capable of.

――

自己との闘いですかね。

A battle with yourself then?

ZUN

全体として細かい部分は良くできたかなと思ってます。

Overall, only a small part of me is wondering if it turned out alright.

――

お気に入りの弾幕は?

So which danmaku stands out to you?

ZUN

あまり小手先の技術を使わないことが多かったので、そういうやつのほうが作ってる身としては良い感触です。ただ、丁礼田と爾子田のスペルカードは全然避けられなくてね、イライラしちゃう(笑)。見た目が地味なのにすごくよけづらくて、かつ避けても気持ちは良くないから、良くない弾幕の筆頭かな。特に七夕のやつが筆頭かな。最初はもっと画面いっぱいに星が降ってきて綺麗だったんだけど、まったく避けられない(笑)。かといって弾を減らしたらなんだかわからなくなっちゃって、それでも事故死するんだからどうしようもないよ。

There were plenty of things that don't use many cheap tricks, so that sort of stuff feels nice as a creator. It's just, I can't dodge any of Teireida and Nishida's spellcards, so I get frustrated (lol). They look plain at first, but they're extremely tough to dodge. And even if you do dodge them, it doesn't feel good, so maybe they're just bad danmaku? Especially that Tanabata one. At first there were even more stars falling, so it filled the screen and was so pretty, but it was impossible to dodge (lol). But when you reduce the bullets, it sort of becomes unrecognizable. But still, it was causing accidental deaths so what could I do?

――

曲はどうでしたか?

And how about the music?

ZUN

曲の方は良くできましたよ(笑)。あえて言うなら4面の道中かな。もちろん他にもいっぱいあるけれど。

For the music at least, I did well (lol). If I had to pick one, it'd be the stage 4 theme. Of course, there are plenty of others too.

――

「秘匿されたフォーシーズンズ」のCメロが「ネクロファンタジア」っぽいと評判ですが。

There's talk that the "Hidden Four Seasons" C melody is a lot like "Necrofantasia".

ZUN

そうなっちゃうんだからしょうがない。意識したとかじゃなくて、結果的にそうなっちゃう。そんなに曲のバリエーションがあるわけじゃないんだからさ。逆に、じゃあなぜ「ネクロファンタジア」がああいう曲なのかと言われたら、書いたらそうなっちゃったからとしか言いようがない。

It just happens, I can't help it. I'm not aware of it, but that's how it ends up. There just aren't that many variations in music. To put it another way, if I had to tell you why "Necrofantasia" ended up the way it is, all I could say is that that's how it ended up when I wrote it.

――

そう言われるとどうしようもない(笑)。そういえば体験版のときにZUNさん的には「花映塚」と同じテーマで作っている、という話をされていましたが。

If you say so, then that's that (lol). Speaking of which, back when the demo came out people were saying that it had a very ZUN-like theme, the same as "Phantasmagoria of Flower View".

ZUN

それは、ここ最近のゲームが以前に作った作品のアンサー的な作品になっているからです。ストーリーに相関関係がある、ということは一切ないんだけど「それっぽい」なというくらいの関係ですね。

That because the recent games are answers to my previous works. Not in the sense that their stories are completely intertwined or anything, but just a "kinda like that" relationship.

――

お地蔵様が出てくるところとか?

Like putting in a Jizo statue?

ZUN

ストーリーは今回は謎というか、今後のオープニングみたいなものですよ。新しい扉、入り口です。最後まで遊ばないと、何がこのゲームで起こっていたのかわからない上に、なぜか解決したというオチですからね。問題だと思っていたところも解決しちゃった、というふわっとした感じ。そういうのでもいいかなと思っています。

Like the story that's a mystery in this game is the opening for the next game. A new door, an entrance. Since if you don't play to the end, you won't know what happened in this game, and you won't know how it's resolved either. The parts you thought were a problem are resolved too, and it's this floaty, unsteady sort of feeling. I've been thinking that maybe that's okay too.

――

なるほど??? 曲の聞かせ方なんかは今回素直なつくりの気がしたのですが。

I see??? From how you presented the music I got the feeling that this time you had a very honest approach.

ZUN

僕の中では今回の曲はポップミュージックですから。ポピュラーさを考えていました。しかし、今回のインタビューで「天空璋」の本当の魅力はよくわからないよね、僕もわからない。

To me, the music this time is pop music. I thought about what was popular. But the true charm of "Hidden Star in Four Seasons" isn't really clear in this interview. Heck, I don't know it either.

――

1000円で気持ちよくプレイできる部分じゃないんですか?

What about the part where you can enjoy it yourself for 1000 yen?

ZUN

そこだよね。1000円で何回ガチャできるんだか。それにしても、もうちょっと時間があればExtraのあとにもう一回エンディングがあるのも良かったのかもしれないと思ってて。あっちが真のエンディングだからさ。でもエンディングを作る時間なんてほとんどないから6面の後に入れるので精一杯。

That's right. How many pulls on the gacha does 1000 yen get you? But anyway, I was thinking maybe I should've put another ending after the Extra stage, if I'd had the time. Since that's the true ending. But I didn't have the time to make those endings, so the stage 6 one is the best I could manage.



  1. A radical is a component of kanji that classifies the character in Chinese/Japanese dictionaries, and often an indicator of the character's meaning. Strictly speaking, the radical of is , not , even though the two are used interchangeably colloquially.
  2. "Gal" is a kind of fashion trend involving heavy make-up, etc. "Yamanba" is a subset of the ganguro gal subculture that features dark tans and white makeup.
  3. The word used for "old man" is , which is also pronounced Okina.
  4. This refers to an incident on July 26, 2016 where a former caregiver for mentally disabled people stabbed dozens of his former patients, claiming that the world would be better off if they were euthanized. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagamihara_stabbings
  5. 摩羅, the first and second characters of Matara together mean penis. The middle "Ta" is also written with the character for "numerous" (多) which is a homonym for "large".
  6. The song uses マターラ instead of 摩多羅.