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Strange Creators of Outer World/Let's Look Back At SWR-Soku

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幻想神主ZUN
「緋想天」「非想天則」を振り返る

The Fantasy Kannushi ZUN looks back on
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody and Touhou Hisoutensoku

今回の特集に合わせてZUN氏に2作品を振り返ってもらった。
既刊「東方外來韋編 弐」のZUN✕海原海豚対談と合わせて読むのもオススメ。

In conjunction with this special issue, we asked ZUN to look back on two of his works.
We recommend reading this article in combination with the interview between ZUN and Iruka Unabara
in the previously published "Strange Creators of Outer World: Vol. 2".

――

開発の経緯からおうかがいします。

Please tell us about the development process.

ZUN
(Z from below)

流れとしては、「萃夢想」が終わった直後に。前作のリソースを使ってアップグレード版を作りたいっていうのがあったみたいなんで、黄昏さんがもう次を作るって決めてたんですよね。さらにその時ちょうど黄昏さんが、カードゲームにハマってたので、デッキ構築要素が入ることになった。

In terms of workflow, it came right after Immaterial and Missing Power was finished. They wanted to make an upgraded version of the previous work using what resources were available, so Twilight Frontier was already committed to making the next one. Furthermore, Tasofro was just then getting into card games, so it was decided to include deck-building elements.

――

たしかに、以前の対談でもありましたね。

True, it was brought up in a previous interview.

Z

ただ、僕は僕の考えがあって、「萃夢想」の時も一応考えてはいたんだけど、キャラクターの再構築をしようと。これまでのキャラに何か追加要素を加えることで、キャラの関係性を新しくしようという目標を考えていたんです。それで、それぞれに「天気」を持たせて新しい性格をつけて、これまで無かったキャラ同士のやり取りを見せたいと考えてました。だからゲーム的には天気は邪魔だったりするんですけど(笑)。

However, I had my own ideas, even at the time of Immaterial and Missing Power, but I wanted to try and re-establish the characters. I was thinking about my goal of renewing the characters' relationships by including some additional elements to the pre-existing cast. I wanted to give each character a "weather" and a new personality, and to show the characters interacting in ways they had never done before. So, from a gaming standpoint, the weather feature is a distraction (haha).

――

格闘弾幕ゲームとしての完成度が上がりつつ、ZUNさん側としてみると複雑化したストーリー構成という部分はどうでしたか。

From your perspective, how did you feel about the game's increasingly complex story structure, in spite of its greater perfection as a fighting-bullet hell game?

Z

ひとつは作品世界の登場人物が増えたことはあります。それから当時の、格闘ゲームにおけるストーリーの扱いとは一線を画したかった。ストーリーなんておまけ、という風潮はそこそこありましたから。実は「萃夢想」を出したら対戦するよりも一人で遊ぶ人が思ったより多くてですね(笑)。じゃあ次回作はもうちょっとちゃんとストーリーを作らないとダメだな、っていう流れもありました。

For one thing, there were more characters appearing in the game's world. I also wanted to distinguish myself from the way fighting games at the time treated their storylines, in that there was a tendency to think of the story as an afterthought. In fact, when we released Immaterial and Missing Power, we found that more people played it alone than against other players (haha). Thus, we decided that we had to make a better story for the next game.

――

開発の途中で大幅に変わったこととかありますか?

Had there been any significant changes during the development process?

Z

いっぱいあったと思うんだけど、なんだろうなあ。輝夜とか永琳が登場する可能性は、僕らの話の途中でけっこうあったんだけど、ストーリー的に難しかった。追加キャラで覚えてるのは、「非想天則」のときに弱いやつを出そうっていう話をしたら黄昏さんがみんなテンション下がっちゃって。最初リグルを出そうとしたからね。

I think there'd been several, but I don't remember exactly what they were. During the story-writing process, we've had quite a few proposals for Kaguya or Eirin making an appearance, but the overall narrative made it difficult of us to do so. As for additional characters, I remember Tasofro got all excited when we talked about bringing out some of the weaker ones for Touhou Hisoutensoku, with Wriggle being the first one we tried to include.

――

興味深いです。

Interesting.

Z

数の少ないキャラクターとステージでラスボスを出す時に、誰をラスボスにするかっていうのを悩むんだけど。最初の案としては、凄い雑魚たちと輝夜がラスボスでした。雑魚たちと戦っていって最後輝夜と戦う謎のストーリーが案としてあったんですよ。その雑魚達の部分が、黄昏さん達とうまくいかなかった(笑)。完成版もそんな大げさな話じゃないですけど、小さい妖精たちの争いみたいのから始まるストーリーを想像してた。リグルに虫を使わせたかったな。

When you have a small number of characters and only a handful of stages, the question would be who to make the final boss. My first idea for the final boss was Kaguya along with a bunch of small fry. I proposed a mysterious storyline in which the player does battle against the small fry followed by a final battle with Kaguya. The small fry part didn't bode well with the folks at Tasofro (haha). The finished version was not that grandiose, but I envisioned a story that would start with a fight between a bunch of smaller fairies, and I wanted for Wriggle to use insects.

――

それが無くなったから、お空が出てきた感じなんですか。

So you feel like Okuu showed up after that whole thing was lost?

Z

イメージとしては、「緋想天」に天人の天子が出てくるし天空に向かっていくのに対して「非想天則」では地面に向かうように、対照的にしたんです。それで、じゃあここで出てくるの誰かなって考えたら、みたいな感じ。

In terms of the imagery, I contrasted the appearance of the celestial Tenshi in the sky-based Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, with that of Touhou Hisoutensoku being more toward the ground. So then I thought, "Well, who's going to pop up here?" or something like that.

――

土着神的な奴らの話になったと。

I was told that you mentioned some indigenous god-like figures.

Z

諏訪子に関しては、僕も無茶を言って。萃香の時も天子の時も無茶を言ったんですけど、萃香の時はさすがに通らなくて。天子は、だいぶ無茶を通して頑張ってくれた。だから諏訪子のときには、言うだけいってみようかなと無茶苦茶言ったから、その通りのキャラになっちゃった。方向キーを下に入れたら空中に浮かせようとか、できれば空中を泳げるようにしたいとか。

Regarding Suwako, I also made some crazy requests for her. I asked for a lot of things for both Suika and Tenshi, but I couldn't convince them to go through with anything for Suika. For Tenshi, however, I was able to get away with a lot of foolhardy behavior. So when it came to Suwako, I thought I would just be reckless and say what I wanted to, and that's exactly how the character turned out. For example, I said, "Let's make her float in the air when you press the Down key", and "I also want her to be able to swim in the air, if possible".

――

天子にはどんな無茶言ったんですか?

What kind of absurdities did you ask for Tenshi?

Z

あれはストーリーモードで無茶を言ってて、地面に当たり判定をつけてほしいと。さらに段差がついた状態の地面でぴょんぴょん跳べるようにっていうのは、最初からそういう風に作ってないから大変だったみたい。

Those requests were made during the story mode, when I asked them to put collision detection on the ground. I wanted her to be able to leap along uneven surfaces, but that was difficult to implement since the game wasn't initially designed that way.

――

あそこだけ、急に別物感が。

It suddenly feels different there.

Z

アクションゲームっぽくなる。天子はどんどんと地面を持ち上げて、最後は宇宙までいくっていう話でした。その後で地球に落ちてくる展開もあったんですけど、その展開は「非想天則」の早苗VS諏訪子の時に披露することに。

It became like an action game. Tenshi would lift more and more of the ground, and in the end she would end up in space. There was a later development where she'd fall to earth, but that development would then be showcased in the "Sanae vs Suwako" battle in Hisoutensoku.

――

落ちながら戦う、なるほど。浮いてると言えば衣玖にもイメージがありますが。

Fighting while falling...I see. Although when it comes to floating, Iku carries that sort of impression, too.

Z

設定としてはふわふわしてるキャラクターなんで。それこそ空中に泳いでいるような。そしたら思った以上に雷のほうにフィーチャーしちゃって。ボスの性格とかは、特にドット絵に左右されることが多いから、面白い動きがあったら引っ張られるよね。元々そんなに細かく設定があるキャラクターじゃないから、どういう技を出すかわからない。で、みんなイメージで技を作ったりすると、それがキャラに戻ってくる。

She's a character who floats around in the air, as though she was swimming through it. But then we ended up focusing more on the lightning than expected. The boss's personality is often influenced by their pixel art, so if they make any interesting movements, people will be drawn to such. The characters weren't initially so well-defined, so we didn't know what kinds of moves they'd make. So, when people created techniques based on their own impressions, they came back to the character in question.

――

黄昏さんとの共同開発にも徐々に慣れてきたという感じでしょうか。

Would you say that you're gradually getting used to working with Tasofro?

Z

共同で作っていて一番楽しいなって思うのは、自分が「依頼」して作るのは大変だけど、「向こうが作る」ってものに協力するのは凄く良い。楽しいんです。実際僕も格ゲーが作りたくて、それを黄昏さんにお願いしますってやってたら細かい部分も逐一決めなきゃいけないし、向こうも言われたことをやらなきゃいけないから不満が溜まると思うんですよ。そうじゃなく、向こうが作りたいって言ってるところに、じゃあこういうのできる? って提案していく作り方は凄く楽しいなって。

I think the most enjoyable thing about collaborative work is that, while it's hard for me to "request" something on my own, collaborating on something made by "the other side" is great. It's fun. Actually, if I wanted to make a fighting game and asked Tasofro to make it for me, I would have to decide every detail, and I think that would cause a lot of frustration since I'd have to do what they asked of me. On the other hand, I find it incredibly fun to make suggestions to the other party and go, "Well, can you make something like this?" when they say they want to make something.

――

なるほど。

I see.

Z

かといって、じゃあストーリーを軽く乗っけましょうかって訳にもいかないからね。キャラクターを決めるところから、ストーリーが始まってると思うんですね(笑)。ゲームのシステムが決まるってことは、ストーリーが決まるので結構最初に動き出すまでが長い。そこら辺が「萃夢想」の辺りではうやむやだったものが、どんどんとハッキリしてきて。最近はもう最初にラスボスを決めるかなみたいな(笑)。それが決まってないと、ストーリーがフワフワしちゃって。

But that doesn't mean that we can't just take a simple approach to the story. I think the story really begins when we decide on the characters (haha). The story is decided when the game system is, so it can take quite a bit before things start to move forward. The story that was vague around the time of Immaterial and Missing Power gradually became a lot clearer. Now it seems as if we have already have an idea on the final boss (haha). Without a definite final boss, the storyline becomes vague.

――

ある意味いつも通りと。

It's just as usual, in a sense.

Z

結局シューティングと変わらない。東方ならではのやり方かもしれないけどね。そのゲームの全体をどこに持っていくのかっていう。そしたらまぁラスボスなんだろうなと。そういう意味では「非想天則」って特殊で、ラスボスがいないんです。ストーリー上の一応のラスボスっていうのはいるけど。そこで生まれたのが「アンノウンX」という曲。キャラクターに結びついてない、唯一のボス曲が生まれて、あれが凄い便利でね、その後もちょくちょく使っちゃう(笑)。

Not unlike a shooting game, in the end. Maybe it's just a unique way of doing things in Touhou. It's like, where do you take the whole of that game? I then thought, "Well, this must be the final boss". In that sense, Hisoutensoku is special in that it does not have a final boss. There is a "last boss" in the story, but nowhere near the end of the game. That is where the song "Unknown X" came from. It's the only boss song that isn't connected to any one character, and it's so useful to have that I would frequently use it after the fact (haha).

――

とりあえず流しとくかみたいな(笑)。

So it's like, "Let's just go with the flow for now". (haha)

Z

なんかおかしなことが起きて、しかもラスト感があるときにアレを流しておけば大丈夫。あと「緋想天」の時には確かに、ストーリーの途中で背景が変わったり、第三者が出てくることが頻繁にあったけど、あれもやりたいことの一つだったんです。「萃夢想」の戦闘の時には、その時間のその背景の場所だなんて、絵的に固定されちゃってるからストーリーに違和感が出ちゃって。話してる途中で移動したりするのは、「緋想天」で可能になった。

When something strange is happening, or if I want to convey a sense of finality, just play that song and it'll be fine! Also, sure, Scarlet Weather Rhapsody had frequent background changes and third parties appearing in the middle of the plot, but that was one of the things I wanted to do. In Immaterial and Missing Power, the battles were fixed in the same place at the same time with the same background, so it felt out of place in the narrative. In SWR, it became possible to move around during conversations.

――

ここじゃなんだから場所変えようぜって展開ありましたよね。

So for instance, you could say, "This isn't the place to be, so let's change the location".

Z

移動したら別の人が出てきてみたいな、そういうことができることもあった。「非想天則」は確か、立ち絵で会話しないでドット絵に吹き出しを付けたんですよね。「ロマサガ風」って呼んでるんだけど。あれは僕としてはすごい楽しいんだけど、黄昏さんの作業が凄い大変で(笑)。

There were times when you could move to a different place and someone else would show up. In Hisoutensoku, as I recall, when characters would speak to each other, we used speech bubbles over the pixel art instead of full-body portraits. I call it "RomaSaga-style"[1]. That was a lot of fun for me, but a ton of work for Tasofro (haha).

――

なるほど「ロマサガ風」。

Right, "RomaSaga-style".

Z

「非想天則」っていうおよそゲームのタイトルっぽくないタイトルですよね。なんのこと言ってたんだろうみたいな、メジャー感のなさがいいですよ。

"Touhou Hisoutensoku" doesn't sound like a game title, does it? I like the lack of any major sense as to what it means.

――

でも長く愛されるゲームになりましたね。

But it's become a long-lasting game.

Z

パッチってことはゲーム全体で見ればそれなりに制作の時間がかかっていますから。でもちょっと複雑過ぎるよね、デッキとかちょっとよくわかんない……(笑)。

I think having it be a patch is a good thing, because the game as a whole has taken a good amount of time to produce. But maybe it's a little too complicated. Like the decks, for example, I don't know a whole lot about those...(haha).

――

そういう意味では、これをピークに黄昏さんとの共同作品はシステムがちょっとずつシンプルな方へ向かったような。

In that sense, the system seems to have moved a bit toward simplicity in the Tasofro co-productions after peaking there.

Z

やり過ぎちゃうと凄く好きな人が出る半面、あんまり広がらなかったりするんですね。だから黄昏さんの中でも操作が簡単なほうが良い派と、もっと複雑なほうが良い派がいるようです。答えはあんまないと思うんですけどね。

If you go too far, there may be people who like it a lot, but it may not be widely used at the same time. So even within Tasofro's works, there seems to be two groups: those who prefer simple controls and those who prefer more complicated ones. I guess there isn't much of an answer to that question.

Notes

  1. Short for "Romancing SaGa", the fourth entry in the SaGa series of video games.