Strange Creators of Outer World/Wily Beast and Weakest Creature Interview with ZUN

	STRANGE CREATORS INTERVIEW 01 ＺＵＮインタビュー	STRANGE CREATORS INTERVIEW 01 Interview with ZUN
	シューティングゲームとして爽快な仕上がりながらストーリーはなかなか難解な内容の「鬼形獣」。 その狙いは、いかなるものだったのだろうか。	"Wily Beast and Weakest Creature": exhilarating as a shooting game, but with a rather complicated story. Just what was the intent behind it?
	畜生界とは、畜生とは何か	What is the Animal Realm? What is an animal?
――	「鬼形獣」開発おつかれさまでした。今回はずいぶんと「撃つ」ことを進化させたシステムだったような印象です。	Congratulations on finishing "Wily Beast and Weakest Creature". With the gameplay system this time around, it felt as if the very act of "shooting" had evolved considerably.
ZUN	システムは大して変わってないですよ。弾に当たって死ぬんだもの。そういう部分を覆しちゃうゲームはいっぱいあるけど、東方に関してはそこは変わらないと思います。まあ自分で作っていても不思議なゲームだなとは思いますけれど。	The system's not really that different. You hit a bullet, pow, you're dead. There's a lot of games that go against that particular mold, but I think that's a part of Touhou that'll never change. Although I do think it's a pretty strange game, even though I'm the one who made it.
――	いや本当に。こういう結末にしようというのは、最初から決まっていたんでしょうか。	You can say that again. Did you plan from the start to give it this sort of ending?
ZUN	開発を始めるまではいろいろな可能性を考えていたけれど、作り始めてからは変わっていないです。最後まで決めてから作りますから。	I considered various possibilities before starting production, but once I'd started making it, it didn't change. I always plan it out until the end before starting.
――	いくつか新しい設定や世界が出てきました。地獄に行くかと思ったら地獄じゃないところに行ったし。	A number of new locations and background details appeared this time. We thought we were going to Hell, and then we actually went somewhere besides Hell...
ZUN	大きく見たら地獄の一つですよ、畜生界も。	The Animal Realm's just one of many Hells, broadly speaking.
――	そうなんですね。	Is it, now?
ZUN	とにかく地獄はめちゃくちゃ広いんです。霊をたくさん受け入れられる。それこそ無限に広いんです。畜生界はお隣って言っているけど、まあちょっとだけ分かれてる、程度の感覚です。	The first thing about Hell is that it's stupidly large. It accepts tons of spirits. Just, you know, infinitely large. The Animal Realm's described as being "next door" to it, but in terms of perception it's only a little bit divided from it.
――	分かれているっていうのは、どういう？　明確な境があるんですか。	What does "divided" mean in this case? Is there a clear border between them?
ZUN	うーん、地獄がとにかく広いから、境目があったとして、それがちょっと混ざっててもわからないよね。	Hmm. Well, Hell's so big that even if there were a border, you wouldn't be able to tell how blurry it was.
――	背景は圧倒的に違いましたけれど。	The backgrounds looked dramatically different, for what it's worth.
ZUN	そこはゲームだから（笑）。地獄はわりと地獄らしい地獄のイメージです。	That's 'cause it's a video game (laugh). Hell in Touhou has a fairly Hell-esque image to it.
――	めちゃくちゃ骸骨がそこら中に埋まってますけど。	Tons of skulls just buried all over the darn place, for starters.
ZUN	それに加えてものすごい風が吹いてる。まあ、どっちもプレイヤーから見たら地獄ですよ。地獄のどこかはあまり問題じゃない。キャラたちもそういう風な認識で見ています。	And it's tremendously windy, too. Well, both of them are Hell from the player's perspective. The specific part of Hell isn't much of an issue. That's pretty much how the characters view the place as well.
――	なるほど。	I see.
ZUN	地獄こそが一番懐が広くて、誰でも受け入れる場所ですよ（笑）。広すぎるからめちゃくちゃで、いろいろな奴がいろいろな場所で幅を利かせてるんです。	Hell is actually the most open-minded place there is! It'll accept literally anyone (laugh). It's total chaos because it's so big, and there's all sorts of people throwing their weight around in all sorts of places.
――	その中で割と革命的なことが起こっていた、というのが今回の顛末と。	And so the story this time around is about a fairly revolutionary event that happened there?
ZUN	あれはなんだろう、ちょっと難しいですよね。プレイしただけでは分かりにくいかもしれない。	What did happen, in the end? It's a bit of a tough question. It might be hard to grasp just by playing through the game.
――	どうしたら分かるんでしょうね。	How can one grasp it?
ZUN	うーん、そこに住んでる人の感情が無いからね。みんな基本が畜生だから、ちょっと理解しづらいんです。それに、あの世界にいるであろうたくさんの動物霊たちの感情も、全然伝わってこないですし。	Well, we don't hear any of the feelings of the people living there, after all. They're all basically animals, so they're a little hard to understand. You don't get to hear how all those beast spirits living there feel, either.
――	唯一、オプションになった子たちはそういう情報が読み取れた気がします。「名前を付ければよかったかも」という話も頷けるというか。	I feel like the player's option spirits are the one source where you can get that information. I kind of get why you said "maybe I should've given them names".
ZUN	でも名前を付けると、ゲームを始めるときの動物霊を選ぶ時にキャラ名が出ることになっちゃって、それはそれでどういう設定なんだってなっちゃうんですよ。かといって霊夢たちと話しはじめるときに自己紹介を始めちゃうのもなんだかなあって。付けてあげても良かったけど、出すタイミングが無かったんですよねえ。	But if I gave them names, that name would have to pop up when you're choosing a beast spirit at the start, and then you'd be wondering "what the heck kind of background info is this?". But it'd also feel pretty weird to have them introduce themselves when they start talking to Reimu and the others. I could've given them names, but there wouldn't really be any good moment to convey them.
――	たしかに。	True.
ZUN	しかも最終的にはその動物霊に乗っ取られてボスとそいつが戦い始めて、プレイヤーも主人公も置いてけぼり状態ですからね。	Plus, there's that whole thing where the beast spirit takes control at the end, and they start fighting with the boss, and both the player and the protagonist are basically just left in the dust.
――	自機もプレイヤーも道具にされてる感じはあります。	It does feel like both the protagonist and player are being used as tools.
ZUN	でも憑依で性格まで変わっちゃうから、それでいいと思いこんじゃうんですよ、主人公たちも。乗っ取られながら「そうだなあ」って思っちゃう。そうするとやっぱり、遊んだ人は複雑な気持ちになりますよね。これはなんだったんだろう、って。ちょっと凝った感じのことをしてみようと思ってはいるけど、スッキリしないんです。	But being possessed even makes the protagonists' personalities change, so they're convinced that it's fine. Even as the spirit's controlling them, they're like "yeah, sure, why not." Which gives the player some pretty mixed feelings, I'm sure. Like, "what even was all this?". I thought I'd try doing something a little tricky like that, although it certainly isn't very refreshing.
――	特に何かが解決しているわけではないというか。	Yeah, it's like nothing's really getting resolved.
ZUN	ストーリー的にも始まったのか終わったのかもよく分からないですし。なんていうんだろう、ゲームの味である「雑味」の部分だけが、たくさんある感じ（笑）。	You can't tell whether it's the beginning of the story or the end or what, either. How do I put it? In terms of the game's flavor, it feels like it's nothing but weird aftertaste (laugh).
――	そうは言いながらも、わざわざ地獄の中で畜生界という場所を設けた意図はあると思うんですよ。	That said, I do believe you had a deliberate reason for introducing this Animal Realm place in Hell.
ZUN	畜生とはなんぞやから始まりますよね。動物的なものっていうのはどういうことなんだろうって考えた結果、素直に出した部分とひねくれて出した部分が現れているんだと思います。まず自分の欲求には素直である。傍若無人。でも畜生界にやってくる動物霊は元家畜とかもいるわけですよ。だから奴隷でもある。そういう二つの反発する要素は両立できるんですよ。それが「ヤクザ」なんです。	It started from me asking, "what are beasts?". I thought about what really makes something an animal, and in my opinion, it's that they show both parts that are honest and parts that are twisted. They're honest about their own desires, for starters. Defiant and self-absorbed. But some of the Animal Realm's beast spirits are also former livestock, you know? So they're also slaves. Both those contrary elements are present at the same time. That's what "yakuza" are.
――	なるほど！	Aha!
ZUN	やりたいことをやっているように見えて、戒律が厳しくて本当にやりたいことはおいそれとできない。たとえば今現実にあるヤクザは、どちらかというと反社会的な存在ということになっているけど、それが社会そのものだったらどうなるんだろうっていうことだよね。政府とかなんてない。何処が誰のシマになっているのかを争っている。上の言うことは絶対でね。そんな感じで、ヤクザ社会が無いと成り立たない状態になっているのが畜生界。そして、そういう社会を破壊しようとしてくるラスボス。	They look like they're doing whatever they want, but their regulations are strict and they can't actually do things spontaneously. For example, today's real-world yakuza are more of an anti-social organization if anything, but if they made up all of society, what would happen? There'd be no government or anything. They're all fighting over whose turf goes where. Whatever the higher-ups say is absolute. That's what the Animal Realm is like; it can't function without yakuza society any more. And the final boss is someone who comes in to destroy that society.
――	あっちはあっちでヤクザじゃないですかね？	Isn't she also yakuza, in her own way?
ZUN	ヤクザ以下だよね。だから戦うことになる。別世界からやってきた謎の勢力ですから。全ての霊は要らなくなってくる。	She's less than a yakuza. That's why they fight her; she's the head of an unknown power that came in from another world. All the spirits will become unneeded.
	偶像崇拝＝アイドルネタ	Idolatry = Idol Parody
――	今回の作品ではアイドルネタがちょいちょい出てきたんですが、あれは結局ブラフというか見せ球みたいなものだったのでしょうか？	There's a few references to idols throughout the game, but was that all a bluff in the end? A sort of curveball?
ZUN	あれはあれで狙いではあります。テーマの一つなので。ずっと偶像崇拝の話をしたかったんですよね。ラスボスの二つ名だって、最初は「アイドルマスター」にしようかって思ってましたから（笑）。	That was on purpose, in its own way. Since it's one of the themes. I always wanted to do a story about idolatry. I even thought about putting "Idolmaster" in the final boss's title at first (laugh).
――	あっはっは（笑）。	Hahaha (laugh).
ZUN	どうにかしてその単語を入れようかと考えてたんだけど、さすがに避けました。あ、「マスター」というよりは「P」、プロデューサーのほうだったんですよね。アイドルを作る側ですから。ただのこのネタは単に露骨なうえにストーリーともあまり関係も無いのでボツになってね。まあそんなわけで、アイドルネタ自体はブラフという訳ではないんです。だからあえて１面から「アイドル」が登場していて、ラスボスにちゃんと絡めてるんです。	I thought really hard about where to include that word, but I did away with it in the end. Oh, but she's less of a "Master" and more of a "P (Producer)", isn't she. Since she's the one making the idols. But it was a really blatant joke in the first place, and didn't have much to do with the story, so away it went. But anyway, the idol references themselves weren't a bluff. That's why I went out of my way to have an "Idol" show up in Stage 1, which then ties into the final boss.
――	なるほど。	I see.
ZUN	今回のお話としては分かりやすいテーマがあるとかではなくて、とにかくああいった世界がある、というお披露目なんです。その世界には風刺をはじめいろいろなものが入ってますけど、作品自体で何を見せたいかと言ったら特に無くて、「畜生界という世界があって、いろいろと要素が拡がってるよ」というのを見せる。	There isn't any sort of obvious theme to the story this time. It's mainly just an introduction of "there's a world like this out there". There's a variety of things going into that world, particularly satire, but if you ask what the work wants to show you, there isn't much in particular. "Here's this world called the Animal Realm, and here's these various elements spread throughout it."
――	５、６面のような状態の世界かなという気もしたんですが。	I got the impression that the state of the world depicted in Stage 5 and 6 was a key element.
ZUN	そこはもちろんゲームとしての演出的な見せ場ではあるけれど、作品そのものの見せ場ではないね。	That's definitely one of the big highlights of the game, of course, but it's not a particularly big focus of the story itself.
――	少なくともヤクザ組織の抗争ではないのではと。	It's not the conflict between the yakuza groups, at least.
ZUN	後半のステージはまあ、たまたま世界遺産になったしタイミングはベストだなってくらい（笑）。いままでの僕に限らず、５面と６面の音楽は逆なんです。地獄がしっとりとした曲調で、畜生界は激しいイメージなの。前だったらそうしてたんだけど、今回は反対にしているところが面白いところかなって。動物霊たちがもはや動物じゃあなくなってるあれはもう人間と一緒ですよね。「畜生界」の畜は「社畜」の畜だから。そこから解放してくれる偶像たち……ＡＩが畜生労働から解放してくれる、そのＡＩを作るのはラスボス、というね。	When it comes to the latter stages, I just thought, "well, it became a World Heritage site just now, so this is probably the best timing" (laugh). The Stage 5 and 6 songs are the total opposite of what I would've done in the past. Hell would have a mellow tune to it, while the Animal Realm would be harsh and energetic. But I feel like that contrast is part of what's interesting this time around. The beast spirits are hardly even beasts any more; they're on the same level as humans. The "畜" in "畜生界" (Chikushoukai, Animal Realm) comes from "社畜" (shachiku, corporate livestock), you see. And the idols liberate them from that-- AI liberates workers from animalistic labor. And the final boss is the one who makes those AIs.
――	でもそのラスボスを呼び寄せたのは人間（の霊）ですよね。	But the humans(' spirits) are the ones who summoned that final boss, right?
ZUN	動物霊的には人間は神に支配されているように見えるし、実際そうかもしれないし、どっちが正しいかはわからないんです。今でしか理解しづらい設定というかニュアンスが多いんですよね、今回。このゲームではそこには結論は出していないんです。	From the beast spirits' perspective, the humans are being subjugated by the god, and that might actually be the case; it's not clear which of them is right. There's a lot of details about the setting, or you might say nuances, that are hard to understand just for right now. There's no conclusion given within the game itself.
	各ステージについて	Regarding Each Stage
――	各ステージについて軽く聞いていきますが、まずSTAGE1はなんというか……いろいろ酷くないです？	Let's talk briefly about each stage. To begin with, Stage 1 is... kind of nasty in a lot of ways, isn't it?
ZUN	水子霊ですね。亡くなった後に楽しそうにしているほうが救われるかなって。主人公側は完全に悪役ですけど、動物霊に乗っ取られてるっていうことを表現するためにね。みんな動物だから攻撃的な内容なんです。登場人物たちが、個人に対する感情がほぼ無いというか、あまり感情で動いてないんでしょうね。セリフは一見するとそう見えますけど。怒りも悲しみも無い。でも、そうじゃないと弾幕は無理ですよね。真剣に戦ってるのにあんなスペルカードなんて使ってられない。あくまでごっこ遊びなんです。戦いに勝った負けたが命に関わらないというか、そんなに大切じゃない。必死さはないんです。	With the spirits of stillborns, yes. I feel like it's more hopeful to portray them as having fun in the afterlife, you know? The protagonists are 100% the bad guy in that case, but that's to show how the beast spirits are influencing them. They're all animals, so they act aggressively. The characters barely express any of their own feelings towards each person, or rather, they're not really acting based on their feelings. It might seem that way glancing over the dialogue, but they're not particularly angry or sad about anything. That's how it has to be for danmaku fights to happen, though. They'd never bother using all those Spell Cards if they were fighting seriously. It's just a mock game. Whether they win or lose isn't life-threatening, or at least, it's not that important. There's no desperation to it.
――	２面はボスが牙をむいてくる感じあります。	It feels like the boss really bares her fangs in Stage 2, though.
ZUN	そこは分かりやすく三途の河の恐怖を出したいところですよね。	That's to show off the terror of the Sanzu River in an easily-understandable way.
――	そういえば三途の河には古代魚がいっぱいっていうのは、どういうことなんでしょう。	Speaking of which, what's up with there being so many prehistoric fish in the Sanzu River?
ZUN	死んだ、絶滅して居なくなった魚たちがいっぱいで。魚たちは死んだ後も地獄にも冥界に行けないで……。僕の考え的には、魚や虫はちょっと別枠なんです。三途の河は海水も淡水も汽水もなんでもありですが、まあ世界的な量を考えたら海水のほうが多いんでしょうね。あまり河っぽくもないですし。まあ、ここでも動物を出したかったっていうだけなんですよね。１面だって、クラゲをね？　まあどちらかというとヒルコなんですけど、動物というか生き物モチーフを出したかった。２面の牛が一番動物っぽいね。	It's full of fish that died, or went extinct. They can't go to Hell or the Netherworld after they die, you see... since fish and insects are in a bit of a separate category, the way I think about it. The Sanzu River is made of sea water, fresh water, even brackish water, although globally speaking, I suppose the majority of it would be sea water. It's not very river-like, after all. Well, I basically just wanted to include some animals here, too. Even Stage 1 has the jellyfish, right? Well, more like Hiruko if anything, but I wanted to include some form of 'animal', or at least a 'living creature' motif. Stage 2's cow is probably the most animal-esque out of all of them.
――	３面も鶏で、分かりやすいというか。頭にも別の鶏が乗ってますし。	Stage 3's chicken is another fairly obvious one. She's even got another chicken sitting on her head.
ZUN	基本的に鶏ってあまり良いイメージが無いですよね。「チキン」って言ったら強くはなさそうじゃないですか。あとはもう食べるイメージくらいしかないから、偉い感じにしてみました。	Chickens don't usually have a very positive image attached to them. Calling someone a "chicken" certainly doesn't make them sound strong either, right? And the only other common impression of them is as food, so I tried to give her a dignified feeling.
――	なるほど。	I see.
ZUN	まあ、鶏としてキャラに選ばれてますけど、ほとんど鶏は関係なくて、どちらかというと境界を見張る人、分ける人、見渡す人。いろいろ語源に説はあるらしいですけど、あいまいな感じもまたぴったりかなって。水を分けるから「みわたす」とかね。語感も似てるし。ノドの病気を治す感じ。そういうことを考えるのは面白くてね。なんにしても良い神様です、悪意が無い。	Well, she's the "chicken" character to be sure, but she doesn't have all that much to do with chickens. She's the one who watches over the boundary, divides it, sees off travelers across it. There's lots of theories as to the etymology of Niwatari's name, but I felt like that vague, indeterminate feeling was also perfect for her. Like how "dividing water" (mizu wo wakeru) leads to "surveilling" (miwatasu). They've got the same linguistic feeling. And she cures throat illnesses. Thinking about all that stuff together is interesting. She's a good-natured god more than anything else; no malice at all.
――	４面から曲もゴリゴリになっていろいろと地獄感出てきます。	Stage 4 onward is where the Hell vibes get stronger, especially with the crunchy music.
ZUN	むしろ地獄を味わえるのはここだけっていう。長いよね。しんどさを味わってもらって。でもボスは簡単になるようにしています。逆に５面は道中は簡単でボスが難しい。	Really, it's the only part where you get a taste of Hell. It's long, too; I wanted to give a sense of exhaustion. But I made the boss fight pretty simple. Conversely, Stage 5 has a simple stage portion and a tough boss.
――	吉弔のスペルカードのほうがキツくないですか？　最初のと最後のが。	Aren't Yachie's Spell Cards tougher? The first and last, in particular.
ZUN	どっちも確かに難しいかもしれない（笑）。でも吉弔の「龍紋弾」は会心の出来で、ギリギリの範囲で抜け道があるのがすごく綺麗なんです。でも、その分難しい。ストーリー上のラスボスの一人みたいなものなので、そういう難しめの弾も用意してます。東方の世界では龍は強いので仕方ないですね。まあボム使えばいいんです（笑）。食えない、慇懃無礼な奴です。	They can definitely be pretty difficult (laugh). I'm quite satisfied with Yachie's "Dragon Crest Bullets", though. The way it has just enough of a gap to squeeze through is very pretty. But that makes it that much harder. She's basically one of the final bosses in terms of the story, so I cooked up some difficult patterns like that for her. Dragons are strong in the world of Touhou, after all! Of course, you can just bomb it (laugh). She's crafty. Polite on the surface, but condescending underneath.
――	５面はいきなり大都会なんですが。	And then Stage 5 throws a metropolis at you all of a sudden.
ZUN	いいでしょう？　ああいう感じ。文明が行き過ぎるとこうなるという、わかりやすいディストピア化が進んでいるわけです。その先に待ち受けるアイドル（偶像）。しかもあれはバーチャルアイドルですから。	Isn't that feeling great? A real "civilization gone too far" situation, where it's becoming a dystopia in a really obvious way. And then the idols (effigies) are waiting at the end of it. Virtual idols, at that.
――	え？　実体はあるんですよね。	Huh? They have actual bodies, though.
ZUN	偶像に実体があるかどうかは微妙ですが、言ってしまえばフィギュアですよね。埴輪って不思議ですよね、なぜみんな作ったんだろうかって。考古学では困ったらすぐ信仰のせいにしちゃいますけど、今の人間の道徳観とかで考えると違うんじゃないか、なんてことをずっと考えてね。僕としては、単純に作りたかったんじゃないかと思うんです。最初は違ったかもですが、だんだん作ること自体が楽しくなってきて、バリエーションも増えちゃった。作る欲求を満たすためだったんじゃないかな。土偶とかもね。そういうすごいクリエイターがいたんじゃないかなあ。	Whether the idols have actual bodies is a rather fine distinction to make, but if I had to say one way or another, they're like figurines. Haniwa certainly are mysterious; you wonder why everyone was making them. Archaeology is quick to ascribe religious reasons to anything it doesn't understand, but if you think about it with today's moral values in mind, it might not seem that way. I've thought about things like that for a long time. Personally, I believe they made them just because they felt like it. That might not have been the initial reason, but the act of creation itself gradually became enjoyable, and they started making more variations. To fulfill their creative desires, you know? Same with dogū and the like. Maybe there were amazing creators like that back then.
――	６面は古墳の中に突入するわけですが。	Then in Stage 6, you storm into the kofun itself.
ZUN	世界遺産になった古墳も誰の古墳かわからないですけどね。謎めいてるのはいいです。鍵穴っぽいデザインもいいし、世界遺産になったのに調査できないのもいい。古墳の中のイメージはいろいろあったんだけど、最終的には作りやすい方向で落ち着きました。単純に、ちゃんと作ろうとするとコスト高になりすぎて。もうちょっと普通に洞窟っぽいのを再現しようとするとコスト高になるし、「自然豊か」っていう設定を引き継いでジャングルっぽい中身にするのもコストがかかっちゃう。自然物は作るのに苦労するんです。それに比べて機械類はすぐに出来ちゃいますから。	They're not sure who the recent World Heritage kofun belonged to, either. That mysterious quality is nice. Same goes for the keyhole-like design, and the fact that they still can't conduct expeditions even though it's a World Heritage site. I had various designs in mind for the kofun interior, but in the end I settled on one that was easy to put together. Just because of the cost-efficiency when it came to properly making it, really. Trying to replicate a more regular cavern-like look would cost a lot, and tying it in to the "rich in nature" setting with a jungle-like interior would cost a lot too. Making natural scenery takes so much effort on my part. Meanwhile, I can make mechanical scenery in no time.
――	そういえば逃げるのも新しいですね。	Running away from the boss is new too, now that I think about it.
ZUN	あれは今みたいな背景になったので、入れてみた演出です。演出面での驚かせ方で言うと、地獄らしい地獄から物悲しい都会に行って、自然豊かな場所に行きたかったんです。そうすると「極楽に居るラスボス」という絵的にとても面白いものが出来上がったはずだったんですが、さっき言ったようにコストがかかり過ぎちゃうし、ストーリーもちょっと変わってきちゃう。今回は狭くてＳＦっぽい感じの中身になったから、逃げた。逃げたというか、外に誘い出したというのが正しいんだけどね。	That's a theatrical element I added once I'd finished the current background. In terms of surprising the audience with the presentation, I wanted to go from a classical Hell to a solemn city, then to somewhere full of nature. When I put it that way, I could've had the final boss reside in Paradise, which would be visually interesting, but like I just said it'd be too high-cost, and I'd have to change the story somewhat too. Since we had a cramped, sci-fi-esque interior this time, I had them run back out of it. Well, not so much 'run' as 'lure the boss outside', technically.
――	「土と水で作り変えてやろうか」はなかなかコワいセリフです。	"Why don't I rebuild you from soil and water?" is a pretty terrifying line.
ZUN	そのほうが死ななくていいっていう意味ですからね。不老不死にしてあげるよ、と同じです。でも今の世界で言うと病気になるような身体を捨ててサイボーグ化していこうというのがトレンドになっていきますから、ラスボスもそういう発想なんです。	She means you'll be better off that way, since you won't die. Basically saying "I'll make you immortal!". But if you put it in terms of today's world, there's the recent trend of discarding your illness-prone body and becoming a cyborg. The final boss has similar ideas.
――	袿姫を喚んだ人間霊的にはどう思ってるんでしょう。	What do the human spirits who summoned Keiki think of her?
ZUN	そこは一切出てこないからね。あの世界で人間霊は、ただの「素材」でしかない。みんなはその素材を奪い合ってる。袿姫も素材としか思ってない。そうしている理由は、あの世界では人間がそうなりたいんです。よりよい社会の歯車になりたかっただけ、というか。	The game doesn't mention even a word of that, after all. In that world, the human spirits are nothing more than "materials". Everyone's fighting to steal those materials from each other. Keiki doesn't think of them as anything but materials, either. The reason for that is because the humans in that world want to be that way. You could say they just wanted to become cogs in a better society.
――	信仰して喚んだ時はそこまでではなかったのでは？	Had things already gone that far when they worshiped and summoned her?
ZUN	そうかもしれないし、僕の中ではＡＩとかと同じように「この世界を支配するために作ったモノに、結果的に自分も支配されてしまう」というやつなんです。たとえば、今だと自分が体調が悪いときにすぐネット検索で調べて対応を取るじゃないですか。でもそれがエスカレートすると、体調の良しあしを判断するのは自分じゃなくなってくるんです。「あなたの今の体調はこうだから、こうしなさい」ってＡＩが言ってきたら、自分の感覚じゃなくてＡＩの指示を信じるようになる。それがこのゲームで出てくるような、人間霊が支配されている世界。それをおかしいって言ってくる動物霊たちが周りにいる。	Perhaps not. The way I see it, it's something where "they built objects to rule over the world with, and in the end came to be ruled by those objects." The same as AIs and the like. If you're feeling sick these days, for example, you might go straight to looking it up online and taking measures suggested there, right? But if that escalates to its extreme conclusion, you wouldn't even be the one assessing your own physical condition. An AI would say "your current condition is such-and-such, so do this," and people trust those directions over their own perception. That's the sort of world that appears in-game, where the human spirits are ruled over. And there's beast spirits nearby who say that that's not right.
――	どっちを選んでもダメじゃないですか。	Those both seem like pretty bad options.
ZUN	ほとんどの人は、ますます自分の感覚よりもビッグデータを取るようになりますよ。このゲームを遊んで面白いかどうかすら、コンピューターにゆだねるようになります。そっちのほうが信じるようになりますよね。今は周囲の人の反応を先に見るっていう人たちも多いかもしれないけれど、それすら変わっていく。もしくはもっとパーソナライズ化された提案をされるようになってくる。ゲームの世界では、そういう部分が極端に進んだディストピアです。ディストピアもいろいろな終わった世界観がありますが、こういうのもあるよと。社畜化された畜生たちもひとつのディストピアだし、ＡＩに支配されているのもディストピアで、そのディストピア同士が戦っている世界（笑）。	There's more and more people who come to trust big data over their own perceptions. Even after playing this game, they'd leave whether it was fun or not up to a computer to decide. That's what's more trustworthy for them. There might be plenty of people who look to see other people's reactions first too, but even that's changing. Or they'll start receiving more personalized suggestions and the like. Within the game, it's a dystopia where those sorts of elements have progressed to their extreme. Dystopian fiction features a wide variety of settings that have met their ends in some way, and if you ask me, this is another one of them. The animals serving as corporate livestock are one dystopia, and being ruled over by AI is another, so it's a world where there's two dystopias fighting each other (laugh).
――	終わりに終わってる（笑）。	It's all gone to crap! (laugh)
ZUN	それこそが畜生なんじゃないかと。弱肉強食ってそういう事だと思うんです。単に食う食われるっていうことじゃなくて。一切心休まることは無いです。何処に転んでも地獄。そんなわけで、やっぱり今回は地獄的なお話です。	I feel like that's what "animal" means. That's what "survival of the fittest" is, in my opinion. It's not just "eat or be eaten", it's that there's nowhere to ever relax. Hell wherever you look. So I feel like that makes for a pretty Hellish story this time around.
	音楽について	Regarding the Music
――	本作の音楽面についておうかがいしようかと思うのですが。	I'd like to talk about the game's music for a moment.
ZUN	まあ全体的にはロック調だと思います。なかなか格好よく作れたんじゃないかと。	Well, I'd say it's rock-style across the board. I feel like I managed to make it sound pretty cool.
――	ラスボス戦で「いつものフレーズ」が流れてくるので、すごくハッとしますよね。ようやく安心できるフレーズに触れられた、みたいな。	When the "usual phrase" plays during the final boss, it's such a nice surprise. Like you've finally reached a phrase where you can feel at home.
ZUN	タイトル画面の曲でも一応分かりづらく仕込んでるんですが、まあよく入れちゃうんですよね。	It's in the title theme too, though I did try to obfuscate it a bit. I tend to put it in lots of places, I suppose.
――	お気に入りを挙げるとしたら？	Any favorites, if you had to pick?
ZUN	結構それぞれうまく行ってるので不満は少ないですが、ラスボスは良くできたかなって。ちゃんと王道で作れた。格好いいメロディとか、切ない部分とか、普通に遊んでいくといいタイミングでフレーズが切り替わるようにできてると思います。ほかも気に入っているのは多いですね。４面のボスとかね。	Every song went pretty well, so there's not much that I'm really dissatisfied with, but I feel like I did a good job with the final boss. I made sure to use my "old standby" style. The cool melody, the melancholy parts, the way the phrases sync up with the fight if you're playing normally; I like all of it. I have a lot of other favorites. The Stage 4 boss, for instance.
――	緊張感というか強者感あります。	It's got a lot of tension. A real "strong opponent" vibe.
ZUN	なんだろう、そんなにテンポも早くないしメロディもそうじゃない筈なのに、妙に早く感じる。ちょっと詰まるようにできてるんですよね。ピコピコ感がありながら、急に焦るような感じを目指して作ってるので、そこが楽しくて好きです。	What is it about that one? Neither the tempo or melody is all that fast, but it feels weirdly fast. I composed it so that the listener would feel just a little bit cornered. It's got a piping electronic vibe to it, but I aimed to make it feel panicked all of a sudden as well. I liked that, that was fun.
――	そういえばEX STAGEについても。また組長が出ました。	Oh yes, and there's also the EX Stage. Another yakuza leader appeared.
ZUN	吉弔が搦手なのに対して、直球なキャラですよね。オオカミ霊のボスだし攻撃力が高いほうがいいだろうみたいな感じにして。オオワシ霊はボスも出ないし、ほかの組織から弱いってディスられちゃうけど、黄昏フロンティアさんと作ってる新作でお話のメインになってくるから、楽しみにしててもらえればと思います。	In contrast to Yachie using underhanded means, she's totally straightforward. She's the boss of the wolf spirit, too, so I thought giving her a lot of offensive strength would be best. The eagle spirit's boss doesn't show up, and the other organizations mockingly say they're weak, but they'll be front and center in the story of the new game I'm making with Tasogare Frontier, so I hope you can look forward to that.