Talk:Alice Margatroid

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Relationships[edit]

At the moment her relationships only has one person, same to mayohiga.net, but if we don't separate settings from PC-98 series like mayohiga.net does, probably we also could add Shinki to there as she swears she created everything in Demon's world - where Alice come from. Well, there're many difference between old and new settings that would cause many conflicts, so separating em wouldn't be a bad idea though... it's kind of "Do we make her as an exception?". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aona (talkcontribs) 17:49, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Hmm...
Other than that, they're also different in using forest's mushroom as preference or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by J5983 (talkcontribs) 00:11, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
FWIW, Marisa's Relationships section has Mima in it. -- Inari, the mischievous fox =^·^= —Preceding undated comment added 22:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Fun Facts[edit]

I removed this from Fun Facts:

  • in Perfect Cherry Blossom, the theme of Alice's stage is ' ブクレシュティの人形師 ', which translates to "The Doll Maker of Bucresti". Bucresti is better known as Bucharest, the capital of Romania. Alice's appearance might be based on the girl in the Seal of Bucharest. (... this is just pure speculation.) [FIXME: investigate more about that girl]

This is because the image of the Seal of Bucharest linked appears to be atypical. [1] depicts an (apparently) male figure in the girl's place, who is described in the text as Saint Dimitrie Basarabov, the city's patron saint.

If someone wants to put back the note about Bucresti/Bucharest without the speculation, feel free, but I don't think it's necessary. -7HS 09:22, 29 September 2006 (PDT)

SuperGALS[edit]

I think she kind of reminds me of Ran Kotobuki from SuperGALS...anyone else seeing this resemblance? Lunais 15:15, 9 March 2007 (PST)

hmmm i dont see and i think she is smarter than Ran

Magician vs. doll specialist[edit]

From perfect memento- "However, her history as a magician is shallow, and she is a novice."

Alice's profile has said for a while now "She really is a doll specialist, but dolls are more like a hobby in comparison to her full power."

Are we just confusing PC-98 Alice with Windows Alice? It seems like she isn't really a super strong magician and this "hobby" of hers seems to consume all of her time and effort from PCB and on. -Redpanda —Preceding undated comment added 15:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

More likely she was a magician first (PC-98 days) and became a doll "specialist" (read: otaku) sometime between Touhou 5 and Touhou 6. However, due to her "shallow" history as a magician she might prefer to focus power through her dolls for better control. Does that work? - Unregistered —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.132.3.11 (talkcontribs) 02:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

The Origin of 'Margatroid'[edit]

Has it been definitively established that Alice's last name is a reference from an Agatha Christie novel?

As an older fan, my first thought when I heard her last name was of the Hanna-Barbara character Snagglepuss and his catchphrase "Heavens to Murgatroid". The fact that in her first appearance--Mystic Square-- she wears primarily pink and Snagglepuss is a pink mountain lion also sounds a little suspicious to me...

Another piece of trivial knowledge that may or may not be useful: The surname Murgatroyd roughly means Moor Gate Road or, "the district leading to the moor".

In legend and literature moors are wild places where one could likely encounter the supernatural, from Pixies to the Devil himself. Interpret that as you wish... --75.175.109.229 10:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC)Something Clever

Great piece of knowledge there. It's very possible, since ZUN already inspired himself from Agatha Christie (an example with "And Then Will There Be None?", one of Flan's spell cards that refers to the song in Ten Little Niggers, the final line being: "And Then There Were None", if I'm not wrong). DarkHedge 11:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Alice not considering herself human[edit]

I just looked through Alice's Mystic Square dialogue in Reimu's scenario: "A human like you coming here means that you're prepared to face us, right!?"

I get the implication that Alice did not consider herself human, and considers herself part of Makai. Alternatively, she could have just meant her familiars/dolls she uses in her boss fight.Universalperson 1:46, 23 August 2009 (EST)


In the section of Perfect Momento on Alice, it is established that she started out human: She's the type of magician that was originally human and became one through training. In Perfect Momento's general discussion on Magicians, humans become Magicians by learning Shashoku [literally, "abandoning food"] magic. The likeliest scenario is that Alice finished researching her version of Shashoku magic sometime before Mystic Square, so no--Alice didn't consider herself human anymore.
Exactly why she was in Makai during Mystic Square only ZUN knows for sure, so whether she was using the "us" to include herself in the Defenders of Makai, or was on a business/vacation trip to Makai and spoiling for a fight(and either used "us" to include her dolls, or to arrogantly refer to herself in the third person) is anybody's guess.
75.175.109.229 07:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC)Something Clever

However, her Perfect Memento article is the only source that establishes her as being formerly human, and we know how reliable that is. Every character profile of Alice only refers to her as a youkai magician, and never as a human who became a magician through training. It's entirely possible that Alice was a youkai to begin with and lied to Akyuu for some reason to cover up her past as a Makai resident.

Description[edit]

I don't think Alice was wearing black boots in Imperishable Night, but it says so in the description. As you could see in the picture posted in the Official Profile section of Imperishable Night - Manual, she is wearing white socks and no black boots. I think she started wearing the black boots in Scarlet Weather Rhapsody or Immaterial and Missing Power. Deathsoul4 03:57, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

Look alike.[edit]

Um have you notice? Some characters like Belgium from Axis Powers... I forgot the others...

Not a Naruto crossover[edit]

Unrelated to Touhou, but this Sasori's jutsu would make a cool Spellcard for her, don't you think? =^·^= -- Kitsune Inari 18:26, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

Age[edit]

The reason for this is because during Mystic Square, Alice is around the age(but obviously a bit less) than Reimu and Marisa were. Time didn't pass much when EoSD and PCB came. During that time, instead of human, she became Youkai. So yes, for a youkai, she is pretty young because of this. MaronaPossessed 17:41, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Possible Origin[edit]

Would this bit of mine be appropriate to add to fun facts? It could probably use some editting. I tend to be guilty of run-on sentences. And it's really really long (although still not as long as everything I found regarding Yukari and Maribel) ~Tiamat

  • The C64 version of the Album, "Dolls in Pseudo Paradise" depicts the murder of 7 of the 8 honest men who had come to Gensokyo by the only woman (a blonde woman) of the 8 honest men, after that blonde woman had stopped being human from hanging herself, that the "shrine maiden" (who officially is "probably Reimu", according to ZUN in the e-mails from ZUN's section of this wiki) thinks she saw before but can't remember. The blonde woman killed them because she wanted them to go back to the days when they were thieves and had fun. The popular version of the album reveals that this blonde human may have reincarnated into a younger human since then. Both show that she came from a western house in the forest (presumably the Forest of Magic). Could this be Alice's origins? For the part where she hanged herself (twice, actually), Alice kind of looks like a doll, herself, according to Perfect Memento, yet her spell cards include hanged hourai dolls. For the part where she lost her humanity, Perfect Memento states Alice is a youkai who once was human (it also states she became a youkai through training, but Akyu could be mistaken. Alernatively, it could be her training that allowed her to become a youkai instead of simply die after she hanged herself). For the murderer personality within her, Alice was caught by Aya possibly attempting to murder someone via a long distance spell which involved nailing your straw effigy to a tree (which is the same way the most wary of the 8 honest men was murdered) and had a particularly terrifying expression as she did it. The blonde woman and the most cowardly of the 8 honest men are one and the same (it is the coward who is the final one in the end, and that lost her humanity), and Alice is officially acknowledged to be a coward at heart. Before hanging herself a second time, the coward thinks back and the whole murder feels like a dream, and Bohemian Archive (Eirin's article) reveals that Alice is taking a medicine from Eirin to soothe her dreams. The murderer only wanted the 8 honest men to go back to their fun thieving days, and Alice appears to have a particular attachment to a to a certain thief (Marisa). Finally, Reimu to this day has trouble remembering who Alice is despite meeting Alice before, which is the same thing that happened when the "shrine maiden" saw the blonde woman of the 8 honest men at the end of the story. That and the album is named "Dolls in Pseudo Paradise" (the paradise is revealed to be Gensokyo at the end). The only woman of the 8 honest men is seen heading towards the exit to paradise (Gensokyo), but that could be a reference to Alice going to Makai before returning to Gensokyo again. Alice Margatroid's last name is also a reference to a character from a murder mystery, which is what the story of the 8 honest men is about. Long story short, the story of Dolls in Pseudo Paradise (of a girl who came to Gensokyo with 7 other men, lost her humanity, and killed them all while in a state of subconscious because she missed the old days when they were thieves) could actually be Alice's origins.
That's a pretty huge text wall you got there. As informative and plausible as it is, unfortunately, it's probably too verbose for a fun [singular] fact.
However, I found this long unused Contemplations page. (I thought Touhou of all things would have more fan theory dumps.) Although it doesn't get much attention at the moment, it would be the most appropriate place to put this and any other theories. You could even expand upon it if you wanted to. !8RstuPId2Y 22:37, June 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • The coward was not Alice, the only time Alice "speaks" in this was during the interlude where she mentions a city and going back to the "old days" (this means Alice wasn't talking about Marisa because she isn't from anywhere near a city, let alone an "old friend".
  • Alice only hanged her self once, near the end, in order to fake her death in front of the last survivor and cause him to commit suicide. This is because she didn't want to kill him, but she had to finish what she started, she probably believed that he wouldn't love her after what happened. Also the the "intense drowsiness" from the previous evening was probably Alice drugging the last to die with the same potion as the "most mature". However the "most mature" was given an overdose on purpose, causing his death. Alice then killed the "wary one", which gave Alice time alone with the last one.
  • The "earliest riser" and the "one who had been reborn" at parts 11 and 12 are the same person (the coward) just at different times, 11 being first thing in the morning and 12 being after Alice's fake suicide. both parts show his confusion over the murders with it spiralling out of control after Alice hangs herself.
  • Also, Alice could have known the others longer then the time between Mystic Square and PCB because after MS' extra stage she could have been sent to the human world. Also, we do know that being sent between Gensokyo and the "outside" results also in a transfer between time. So she could have been sent to a European city in the 18th or 19th centuries when the "east" began to open up to the outside world. A group she could have joined may have saw this as an opportunity for a new experience, which after two years may have became boring. However Alice may have coincidentally found a way into Gensokyo, and accidentally transported everyone there. She may have intended to go there to find the only entrance to Makai that she knew about, however at may have been able to find it (due to lack of knowledge of the area.

ShanghaiShanghaiShanghaiShanghai[edit]

So the one instance Shanghai is shown, she actually have a hairbrush. All other times, not really... does it means that it is how she looks? Despite the fact those images I would easily make transparent, but first I really want to ask about that, before doing any changes, because it is more common for that doll to be showed without holding anything. Berzul 14:41, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Two headings for one thing[edit]

These heading, "Ability to the extent of handling magic" and "Ability to the extent of handling dolls" is really confusing me... I thought in modern English, you only need one heading lol. Or, if dolls and magic are said separate, shouldn't one or the other go one above? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 00:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

"Ability to the extent of handling magic" is Perfect Cherry Blossom and Imperishable Night and "Ability to the extent of handling dolls" is in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense and Subterranean Animism. Maybe that should be made clear, or something.--Tosiaki 01:20, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Revertceptions[edit]

Just noting that I agree with the reversion having been reverted (???). In fact, I was going to do that myself. '-'

For the one who got his edit disconsidered, I realize that such big edits take a lot of work, but most of the information mentioned as "unnecessary" was not unnecessary at all... rather, the page is detailed as it is now, which makes for an interesting read. For example, since I haven't played PC-98, I didn't know Alice had no surname, which raises the questions: why "Margatroid"? Was she already "Margatroid" before, did she have a different surname, or did ZUN simply leave her without a surname, as was done with many other characters in PC-98?

Speculative questions like these may be uncertain in nature, and there'll never be a real answer, but isn't it interesting? That's one part of the beauty of Touhou, the ability of the fans being able to speculate so much in fanon that the fanon almost becomes a separate story itself! And would I ever have wondered about the origins of her surname if that specific info wasn't there?

Well... I'm just trying to make the point. Hopefully the author'll understand and take it in as constructive criticism, since I think nobody here had any ill intention at all.


Naï (talk) 21:21, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

DiPP snippet[edit]

Should that even be there? It's mostly fan speculation...MaronaPossessed (talk) 15:34, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

If that's so, shouldn't the same be said of Kasen Ibaraki and her species? Nothing is confirmed, but there is some form of speculation on her page. I suggest letting the snippet be, or relocate it ever so slightly on the same page.
I am Risa. Best of fortune be with you. (talk) 10:55, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Personally, I think it's doing people a disservice to not point out particularly blatant possibilities. My main reasoning is that if the Wiki is meant to inform people, shouldn't it inform people that there was another time that an unidentified person used the same straw doll voodoo magic in another scenario? It's the same as telling people on Sakuya's page that Maribel once ran into a maid at a Scarlet mansion, or telling people on Mokou's page that Maribel ran into a person who's fire was in the shape of the phoenix. No, there's no confirmation that it's Sakuya, and there's no confirmation that it's Mokou, but there's enough similarity there to at least point out to the reader that, hey, there's another maid and another phoenix fire user here, you might want to go check it out. It's the same as the symbolism behind many characters' names that's on this wiki. ZUN never confirmed any of the name symbolisms, and far as I know, never discussed any of them anywhere, yet the wiki is filled with them because odds are pretty darn good there's a meaning behind those names and it's right in front of everyones' faces. In this case, we have an unidentified blonde girl in a Western Style mansion (the exact way Alice's house is described in PMiSS) using the same straw doll magic that Alice used (among other things that were deleted previously for being too speculatory, like the fact that the name of the CD is DOLLS in Pseudo Paradise and it's the story of a human becoming a youkai and whatever else. But that's all small stuff compared to the GLARING fact that it's a western style mansion and the doll magic that was used there). This doesn't confirm it's Alice, someone related to Alice, or anything to do with Alice, but at that point I think we should at least point out the EXISTANCE of a blonde girl from a Western Style Mansion using Straw Doll magic so the reader can decide for themselves if there's a connection or something worth looking into, just like, as mentioned, Kasen's name being related to the four devas is something that should be pointed out. TiamatRoar (talk) 18:32, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Expansion depth limit exceeded?[edit]

The current revision of this page (but not the past revisions) seems to have gone haywire, with red text "Expansion depth limit exceeded" instead of almost everything else. Is anyone else seeing this as well, and does anyone know what's gone wrong? Magic9mushroom (talk) 03:22, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Purging the page has fixed this problem on several other pages, to do this add "?action=purge" to the end of the pages URL (I've gone ahead and done this already). It is believed that this error is connected to the job queue being cleared after having been backed up for several months. The topic was discussed here. Ycdtosa (talk) 04:01, 9 October 2016 (UTC)