Talk:Beast Youkai

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About the choice of the word "animal"[edit]

"Animal" is probably the worst choice here because concerning Touhou, they are not animals (動物) but rather, something else, called youjuu (妖獣). As for what "youjuu" means, it means very simply, to break it down, 妖(あやかし)の獣, or in other words, a "strange/mysterious" (as in the of "Youkai") beast. "Beast" is still probably not good. I would like to have a better translation than that. At first, I thought something like "mythical beast," but obviously that is not very good. Then I thought, "youkai beast" but that would obviously not be good either. Now, I think that perhaps just having it as "youjuu" is best. "Youjuu" is something that means something different depending on where it is used, and in Touhou, it has its own specific meaning, which is why "Youjuu" is probably best.

Does this "youjuu" seem to be a good option?--Tosiaki 09:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

On the other hand, in Perfect Memento, it did state something like "Animal with Too Much Power and Wisdom" so in that sense, maybe "beast" would be a good fit.--Tosiaki 10:03, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

For the sake of making the wiki accessible to English users, I recommend using an English term if possible. From what I gather from Wikipedia (which is one entry from Sailor Moon), 妖獣 = bewitching beast. Well, same 妖 from youyoumu. Perhaps the reason why 妖獣 was translated to animal in the first place is because "animal" is taken in context to mean a subset of youkai.
There does seem to be a problem with the way this term is used though. According to PMiSS, this term is used for a specific subset of 'animals'. Notably, although it includes nekomata, kitsune, and rabbits, it excludes birds. In the beastiary, "animal" is used within its scientific meaning and includes humans. At the least, elaboration of the term may be needed. - Kiefmaster99 15:39, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
In any case, since the word "beast" rather than "animal" is currently used, would it seem better to switch over to "beast" instead?--Tosiaki 16:25, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
And, the current way the word "animal" is used now in the bestiary, in the way it includes humans, does not seem good. One of the biggest themes of Touhou is the difference between humans and youkai, this species are a kind of youkai.--Tosiaki 16:32, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Perfect Memento is still in the knowledge of Hieda no Akyuu. While is crow tengu is a youkai crow, a crow is nothing more than an animal. You see the differences between the youkai version and animal versions in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red in Chen's article. --Hikaruxz 18:33, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
It was also stated that they were 獣 ("Kemono" aka Animals, a rather crude term for calling them that but...) called 妖獣 ("Youjuu" which could problably be translate best as "youkai animal"). So the youjuu are still classified as a type of animal. Another thing is that only the mammal based youkai were classified as "beasts", everything else from fish, amphibian, reptile, etc arn't categorized as such in PMISS. It really doesn't look right with turtle or crow as a type of youkai with their youkai versions being right above in the same category as youkai. I would think putting a section withing this page with an explaination of the youkai variants be a better option under "Animals in Touhou" aka "Beasts in Touhou". --Hikaruxz 18:42, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
It may be within the knowledge of Hieda no Akyuu, but for this case, but when it comes to a case like this, what is relevant to Touhou is not normal animals, but youkai animals (i. e. 妖獣 or "Youjuu"). If normal animals were somewhat important to the world of Touhou, then surely it would have an entry in Perfect Memento. It may be true that it would still be be best to put turtle and crow in this category, but normal animals (動物) is not quite relevant. And lumping together humans into this would definitely not be good.--Tosiaki 19:32, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I mean, sure, everything in Perfect Memento is only within Akyuu's knowledge. But, if regular animals were significant within Gensokyo, then surely it would not escape Akyuu's notice.--Tosiaki 19:58, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
But then when you look, a magician is a outcome of a human becomming a youkai. No different than a crow becomming a tengu. In the "other" section you see creatures that are born as supernatural beings. When you look at "Other" within the "Other" section you see things that are not even living creatures. If your the humans of Gensokyo...then your just seen as a prey item to the youkai. Because humans are not the dominate creature in Gensokyo, they can't be considered greater than an animal.--Hikaruxz 01:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
That may be true, but animals as is (outside of humans) has never been elucidated much nor have they ever been focused on much in Touhou, as opposed to youkai animals (i. e. "beasts") which we know more about, so I think that it would be better to shift the focus of this onto "youkai animals," which has been elucidated more. What I am saying is, it is probably okay to talk about regular animals, and the current contents of this page can stay, but I think the aspect of youkai animals (i. e. "beasts") should be more of what it is about, and that perhaps it would be better if this page were moved to "Beast" or something like that. Does this sound reasonable?--Tosiaki 01:44, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
I didn't really care much about what the page was called. I just found it fun to join this conversation since it reminds me alot of a typical chat at school. But everything Touhou related would be still under "Beasts in Touhou" as a way to compare to what it really it (Not so much in this case but like the Kappa as an example who are different to their folklore counterparts) so people know what it was based off on, etc etc. --Hikaruxz 01:50, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Question about Saouchi and Kume[edit]

I am talking about the Kume (久米) and Saouchi (竿打) of chapter 10 of Ibarakasen. Where would they fit?--Tosiaki 02:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)