Talk:Conceptuals

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huh???[edit]

I can understand the fandom/abilities etc etc, but I would think that this would be important for people to easily find... Abilities are self explanatory and fandom is not really important and actually detrimental at times. I've never seen a wiki with the trivial information on a separate page. --Hikaruxz 21:35, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

It seems a little better if the character pages didn't have random bits of unimportant information, though. For example, in the guideline here on Wikipedia, it says, "Avoid creating lists of miscellaneous information", but I do concede that I might have been too rash in removing all of it at once. However, it did feel like most of the "trivia" was actually very trivial, and for those kinds of stuff, it does not seem really all that important. Perhaps the best solution would be to integrate the more important stuff into the actual text of the page and move the "trivial" things elsewhere.--Tosiaki 21:43, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Well ok, alot can be removed from the main page... I would only see these as things that should go back to the original page because there is a significance. Not so much these two, but on the other characters who lack a story and are only known by brief appearances of actions.

Reimu

  • When playing Yukari's story mode in Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, Reimu breaks down in tears in the ending after Yukari defeats Tenshi and reduces the Hakurei Shrine to rubble for the second time, with Sakuya and Youmu looking on helplessly (although Suika offers to help rebuild it). This marks the first and only time where she is seen crying in a storyline scenario.
  • It is shown in Oriental Sacred Place that the shrine sometimes gets various donations (including wine) from unknown sources (implied to be from the outside world, as the Hakurei Shrine lies on the border) and Yukari is shown in Oriental Sacred Place to sneak yen donations into the offering box when Reimu isn't looking.
  • Although Reimu has successfully resolved the incidents in each major Touhou game, it's possible that her win rate throughout the actual events of the games was not 100%. Perfect Memento in Strict Sense states that Reimu likes to request rematches until she finally wins (something which is allowed under the spell card rules). In essence, Reimu apparently has had to use a few continues every once in a while, but she still manages to get a good ending.

Marisa

  • Marisa is one of the most frequent characters to appear in the Touhou Project series, only second to Reimu after the release of Fairy Wars.
  • Marisa has six theme songs (excluding remixes), making her the character with the most theme songs.
  • According to Rinnosuke, Marisa was inspired to use star-themed magic after a meteor shower viewing party around 2001 to 2002. Marisa's strategy guide in Story of Eastern Wonderland's omake says her third attack uses star magic, although that is just one attack. However, by the time Phantasmagoria of Dim.Dream takes place, many of her attacks use stars. Her apparent mentor Mima also had an astronomy theme in her attacks. Due to the PC-98/Windows canon split, there may be inconsistencies like this between them, although attempts could be made to fit them together (like saying that she trained under Mima after seeing the shooting stars).
  • Marisa holds the distinction of being one of the very few characters in any Touhou game who is known to have a living family. They've never been mentioned by name, or even within any of the game dialogues, but it is implied in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense she is the only daughter. Also according to 19th chapter of Curiosities of Lotus Asia, her father, at least, is alive and is living at the Human Village.
  • Excluding the fighting spin-offs, Double Spoiler, and Fairy Wars, Marisa's face has appeared on all of the Windows game icons so far. This includes Shoot the Bullet, in which she doesn't technically appear.
  • Marisa seems knowledgeable about species not native to the Japanese archipelago such as the beaver in Chapter 4 of Wild and Horned Hermit and the rafflesia in Chapter 14 of Oriental Sacred Place.

--Hikaruxz 21:48, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

This would reduce the space that the really useless trivia like fighting game Color pallet and non-Touhou game stuff, etc, etc that would not explain anything about the character.--Hikaruxz 21:51, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
It does seem better if they were re-added into the article text itself, though. Perhaps we should take a survey as to the best approach.

Request for Comment: What do you think would be the best appropach to these trivia sections?

  • Re-add the important stuff into article text Miscellaneous lists are an eyesore, although there was some important information there, it seems. However, for better readability, they should be integrated into the text itself rather than re-added as a list.--Tosiaki 21:55, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Only keep significant information Significant as in: It must be from the Touhou Project. No comparisons to other characters. No speculations (As in it's not plainly obvious and uses more imaginaion than support), everything must have support (More than one) or factual evidence. All information must add to what is not known from the information above. Anything that can be integrated into the text should not be in trivia. --Hikaruxz 22:03, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Ditto: Hikaruxz's option aligns with mine the closest. If it's already mentioned or mentionable in the text, then exclude it from the list; if it's some concept unique enough (i.e. not some mundane comparison between characters, as Hikaruxz states) then include it in the list. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 22:14, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Question I do have a minor question about their formatting, though - that is, if you think it should be integrated into the text itself. If the information is important, then shouldn't it least be able to be put elsewhere on the page rather than as a list?--Tosiaki 22:10, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Answer It's like Tewi's pillaging mode. Unlike the fandom of EX mode, this is official (Of course it was comical). Things like this would not be fitting in the main portions, but it is better to keep these becuase it promotes official Touhou material rather than fan inspired material. Trivia would not look bad if it only consists of 1-5 points. Most characters would only really have a few that are genuinly signigicant that would not go anywhere else. People lean towards fandom and speculated trivia unfortunatly becuase of so much of it being added onto mainstream pages. Tewi is of course a really rare exception where unique oddball facts are given and most characters wouldn't have this. --Hikaruxz 22:18, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I just wonder, though, was the "pillaging mode" really that significant in the context of the original story, though? About half of that bullet point on the Tewi Inaba page seems actually irrelevant to "pillaging mode," and was just talking about the "shadiness" of her personality in general.--Tosiaki 22:31, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Well that was there before this talk of pages updating, but it would I guess be a different bullet point but I merged it with that so it wouldn't use another bullet point. "Pillaging mode" has no significance to the story but it's significance is all trivial.--Hikaruxz 22:47, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Delete parts were characters get compared (e.g. ) and other really speculative trivia. ☢ Quwanti 22:14, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
  • opinion Even if it's trivial info, it's still got a reason to be on char pages (since it relates to that char). But very small things like what Quwanti suggested ("Kaguya is based of Kotohime") could be removed. ^^ Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 22:28, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I also have never seen a wiki with unimportant info been on a separate page. I don't think we have to follow rules that wikipedia has since this is Touhou and it will contain unimportant info anyway (no offence). If we were to look at this on a visitors point of view, there could be chance that we won't visit the separate page. If the trivial info is still on the char pages, visitors are more likely to read it.

(Relating to Talk:Fanon). I thought this wiki was to provide info, both canon and fanon, even if both are on the same page. If we were to keep fanon on stuff on the fanon page, then does fanon under fanmade chars also go there? As well with unofficial names like Tokiko and the 5MS, both contain fanon info under the name section, only as well their fan names are in the articles name (We only allow this if the name is popular). Should we also move this? Again saying my opinion, everything was fine before. To me, this is very unnatural. Furthermore, with what Hikaruxz said about paragraphs under fanon not looking good, I disagree. If the info is there, then I'm OK with reading it. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 14:44, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Alright then, but it should at least be hidden like the profiles, since fandom (And everything else that was moved) makes the page ridiculously long for little (Speculations) or no (Fandom) benefit to the actual character. Everything thats general and at high priority like brief summary should be shown while the lowest priority like fandom should be optional for people to read rather than being forced upon. --Hikaruxz 14:59, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
First, I don't consider that to be an appropriate use of the hidden function. Second, lowest priority stuff like fandom is already at the bottom of character pages. Third, it serves a similar purpose as "Reception and Fanworks"/"Reception and cultural influence" (two section names I pulled from Wikipedia) so while it adds nothing to the character's understanding canon-wise, it is still worth reporting.
If length becomes an issue, page separation should be considered instead, but there must be enough material to support it. - Kiefmaster99 15:51, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Let's not get carried away with copying Wikipedia - there's no point in a site that just carries a subset of the same information. This site doesn't cover the same purpose either; it's not purely an encylopedia, it's a fanbase hub. It's the norm for fan-wikis to cover information related to the fanbase, and Touhou's fanbase is a larger part of the franchise than in almost any other (consider how many World of Warcraft fans have never played World of Warcaft); the Bad Apple music video is way more notable than Elly, I mean. Splitting that stuff off is little better than deleting it, since a casual viewer will not see it. Hiding it is better, but not ideal. That said, the speculation sections were getting bloated. --Prime32 15:57, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
If fanon is important, that justifies inclusion into pages. As I said before, if enough fanon is accumulated, then splitting would be more justified (+ small summary on character's page). If Bad Apple itself has enough information, it can stand by itself (+ small summary). - Kiefmaster99 16:21, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
How about just a link to said section?
We'd say a summery which will simply state what's inside.

♥★♦ 22:00, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

T: Tony64 stated: it will contain unimportant info anyway

Reply to Tony64's statement: the information could be on a separate page.

T: Tony64 stated: there could be chance that we won't visit the separate page

Reply to Tony64's statement: the shorter the main character page is, the more likely it is that they will visit the separate pages.

Reply to Prime32's comment: when it concerns notability that relates two different things, it might not be notable to both. For example, I would say that the "Bad Apple" music video is not important to Elly, but Elly is important to "Bad Apple."

Prime32 stated: splitting that stuff off is little better than deleting it

Reply to Prime32's statement: to this, I give the same response as to Tony64's comment. If the main character page is short, then there will be a greater chance of clicking off to the other pages.

Concerning Nazeo's comment: that is the view that I endorse, and also very similar to what I suggested earlier.--Tosiaki 04:19, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Dislike[edit]

I do not approve of this "Conceptuals" section. I feel like this would be hard to find for people that wanted to know various different facts and speculations about a character. In addition, lists of miscellaneous information are the heart and soul of many fan wikis. Code Slasher 01:18, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

The main issue I found with them is that they were getting too long. I don't think miscellaneous information are the "heart and soul of many fan wikis" - most fan wikis that have "trivia" sections have at most 5 entries, and included in ways that hardly suggest that they were important parts of the pages.--としあき 02:47, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm going to break the isolation rule for a bit since this does involve me.
I was the one who came up with the "Conceptuals" (see this) section because as Tosiaki said, were indeed getting very long.
I give permission for it to be junked, however I must include this caveat; in doing so you must find another medium to please the majority of the group (Code Slasher is right, Misc Info is the basis for many Memes/Fanon and other such pleasures, that is why this caveat is attached.).
In short, kill it if desired, but make it possible for Users to find these "lists of miscellaneous information".
Happy grazing, editors.

♥★♦ 17:43, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I found favor re-adding the more important bullet points points―no more than 5.--としあき 18:34, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
Great, go for it.

♥★♦ 04:01, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

So why not hide the section away for the ones that are overly long like we do with Official Profiles or Spellcards? U❊T❊W 08:23, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps it could "show by default" the ones that are most important, and hide away the rest.--としあき 15:27, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Eh, I suppose, since that way people can still find the information easily. Anywho, take a gander at this: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Tasks#Trivia Code Slasher 05:02, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
On a page that is over 17 pages long, only a tiny bit more than one page is trivia... note additionally that it is much narrower horizontal margins and that most other pages on that Wiki have much shorter trivia sections. Most people who see that people would probably be more interested in the "tasks" and "rewards" portions rather than lists of random information. Of course, since this is a fan wiki, a trivia section does have its place, although I wouldn't say that it would be a good idea to regard it as its "main portion."--としあき 05:52, 9 April 2012 (UTC)