Talk:Embodiment of Scarlet Devil/Music

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Old, unmarked discussion[edit]

You mean the first line, right? - J5983 17:09, 20 October 2005 (PDT)

Yes. (Edited the page to make it clearer.)


(Translater's note: I tried it to fit them into 61*6 for first few themes, but rest are completely out of limit. and usual Engrish too. Sorry about these.)
(Editor PD: 翻訳者(達?)良く出来たみたい。But shouldn't these comments be in the discussion?)

Radical & Controversial[edit]

So I noticed that in more than a month, the title change for the music piece of Stage 1, "ほおずきみたいに紅い魂" has not been questioned or discussed. Since it was asked to 'bring any objections to the discussion page', here it is, though for now it is merely little more than a curious quandary.

Now, I'm not all that professional about japanese translations, but I know that "ほおずき/hoozuki" refers to the Ground/Winter Cherry literally. I'm interested in the interpretation given here, 'Oni's Lantern', since the Ground Cherry is also known as a Chinese Lantern Plant. However, I think it'd be safer to keep the original title so as not to read too into the meaning.

I'll leave the article alone for now, but since I am taking an interest in the music of Touhou as of late, I'm going to have to change the music title to its original if discussion doesn't move forward after awhile. Many people are used to the older version and I think there is significant insight on its reference, especially concerning the Bon Festival and Ghost Festival, as The Embodiment of Scarlet Devil Incident takes place specifically on 7/15 as noticed in the Gensoukyou Timeline. Dimma Dreka 12:56, July 17, 2010 (UTC)

Well, It's been a while. I too am interested in which translation is considered correct for the sake of accuracy. Neyen 00:39, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Luna? Lunar?[edit]

Here's an interesting thought. 月時計 ~ ルナ・ダイアル is translated to "Lunar Clock ~ Luna Dial" here, but in the OST for Immaterial and Missing Power, it is "Lunar Clock ~ Lunar Dial", although the exact same Japanese letters are used. Which one is correct? Code Slasher 05:07, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

It seems like different people have interpreted it differently. For example, dBu music interpreted it as "Lunar Dial." Crossgear, on the other hand, interpreted it as "Luna Dial." Some have also interpreted the ルナ to be short for "lunatic." It seems that different interpretations are possible.--Tosiaki 05:18, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
I would unify it as Luna, as ルナ is stronger for Luna (as opposed to ルナー, Lunar). Yes, like Luna Child. - Kiefmaster99 13:14, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Septette for the Dead Princess[edit]

Based on the note added to the title, I'm thinking that a minor tweak may be needed to the title. In particular, I think "Septette for a Dead Princess" would be better if we want to preserve the reference. - Kiefmaster99 23:43, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, it would only seem reasonable that "a" should be used. (Although it seems that for Japanese people's own translation of it, both are used, although "the" is a slight majority - of course, this is probably only due to lack of knowledge of the basis for its name.)--Tosiaki 04:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
I was actually thinking about this after I added the note... doing a quick search on Google shows that "for a" is the more common translation by quite a bit ("for a" vs. "for the"). So I'll cast my vote for updating it to "Septette for a Dead Princess," if we're keeping things consistent with the Ravel piece. Shearscape 04:49, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
If it's strictly based off of French, which uses "une", then it's "a" (si le mot était "la", c'est "the"). - Kiefmaster99 05:45, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
On the contrary, when translated, "Septet for a Dead Princess" (notice the spelling change as well; "septette" is an incorrect spelling of "septet" in English) translates the same as "Septet for the Dead Princess". In that case, I'd be more inclined to keep the latter, as this is the more common in my opinion than the former, despite what that Google search says. Code Slasher 03:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Septette is still an acceptable spelling, albeit less common, according to several online resources. I'm indifferent to which form should be used (there's arguments for either).
As well, which language are you translating this from? The French title becomes relevant if it matters. "Une" is not translated into "the", or prove to me otherwise.
Pavane pour une infante défunte -> Pavane for a dead princess
Pavane pour l'infante défunte -> Pavane for the dead princess
Also, you're going to have to be more convincing if you're saying that "the" is more popular. - Kiefmaster99 08:04, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm actually talking about translating from the Japanese title of the song to English. Seems like that would be the only thing that would matter.

This search is peculiar, isn't it? Compare it to this one.

Also, here's my version of the searches for "for a" vs. "for the". P.S.: ignore those lock icons; they just mean that they are secure web-pages, lol. Code Slasher 02:36, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, the Japanese version doesn't decide between "a" or "the", Japanese not having articles. That being the case, I don't see a problem with deciding from the referenced title. Also, septette's a valid spelling, just noted as "especially British." Shearscape 02:51, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I figured as much that it was British. Usually, we stay away from British spellings on here, though I have seen "Love-coloured" a few times. Code Slasher 04:17, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I always use British English... Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 04:20, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Suit yourself, but as far as I know, we've been gradually phasing out the British English on this wiki, as seen here. Code Slasher 05:37, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
As far as I know, we never used one particular English. It is just the one the translator happens to use. Now, this time it is "Septette". ☢ Quwanti 13:10, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
As far as I know mate, creating some bloody insults like that isn't charning, but daft... (not referring to Quwanti, he's right ^^d). Also very unrelated, I don't change "color" to "colour" when editing. If you wish to continue talking about this unrelated business, go to my talk. I have no involvement in this. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 13:52, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Now is not the time to flame someone, whether it be me or someone else. I was merely stating that American editors seem to be correcting the British English used on this site. And yes, this is related. Code Slasher 19:51, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, there seems to be a misunderstanding going on here... I don't think Code Slasher was making an insult to you, Tony, but at the same time I think Tony may not have liked the use of "correcting the British English", since we can't say that American English is more correct than the British English (both are correct uses, just that it seems the American English is innately preferred among editors here since most of us here are living in the States). I thought we decided to keep the English used as they are as long as they're either British or American and not something weird like Konglish (Korean-based English) or Spanglish. I don't want to bring up what was already brought up here, since it might spark another ongoing debate. As for this issue, I'm sticking with what we currently has as of now (i.e. Septette for the Dead Princess) --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 21:26, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I've decided to throw in the towel on both of these issues. Since the Japanese don't use articles, we should go as close to the French title that the song's title was parodied on as possible. Therefore, "Septette for a Dead Princess". Code Slasher 03:17, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Soul, red, cherry[edit]

Now, I'm not a specialist, but people who are, both Japanese and English appear to be treating "みたいに" as "as * as", and, which shouldn't be surprising, I kinda trust them more, especially after you-know-what. And like/as aside, there's still a matter of a verb appearing out of nowhere where one is not needed and wasn't even originally there, and a comma that serves no purpose other than maybe making the whole phrase look awkward. YouDoNotHavePermissionToEditOurSecretEliteWikiWithoutAnAccountHurr (talk) 14:11, 24 January 2013 (EST)

And why are you commenting on this just now? "A Soul that is Red, like a Ground Cherry" has been an accepted edit since February 6, 2012. The comma is there to prevent a run-on phrase, as you should put a comma before the word "as" or "like" when comparing things, especially when using the phrase "that is" beforehand. Also, is Tosiaki a Japanese speaker? Code Slasher (talk) 13:21, 25 January 2013 (EST)
"A Soul as Red as a Ground Cherry" sounds a lot better to me, if it means anything. And no, Tosiaki isn't a native speaker. --Prime32 (talk) 13:53, 25 January 2013 (EST)

Sounds strange[edit]

Why does the music in this game sound different from the rest? I usually play the songs on my keyboard while the original plays on the background, but with EoSD music it sounds somewhat off-tune.

(On the other side, this difference kinda makes the game even more nostalgic when I play it.)

ZUN was probably experimenting with his synthesizers to find out how exactly he wanted the Windows games' music to sound. Code Slasher (talk) 01:47, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposed EoSD Stage 1 theme title change[edit]

It's bothered me for years that Rumia's stage theme has been translated as the rather silly-sounding "A Soul as Red as a Ground Cherry"

"A Soul as Red as a Ground Cherry" is an overly literal translation of "Hoozuki Mitai ni Akai Tamashii".

According to this article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physalis_alkekengi the Hoozuki is known as the Chinese lantern...it even looks like one.

I propose that the name should be changed to the much more sensible-sounding "A Soul as Red as a Chinese Lantern". Chibiku (talk) 05:10, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

This is the third time that someone has created a topic about this song. Did you read the topic called "Radical & Controversial"? What are your thoughts? Code Slasher (talk) 19:50, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Changes[edit]

These are the changes that I have made in EoSD Music Comments. If anybody finds the original way more appropriate, please let me know.

  • ...since the melody sounded so lonely ---> sounded too subtle
  • A soul that's as red and round as a hozuki floating in the darkness of dawn ---> adding " away aimlessly"
  • Since there isn't an image of dead heated fights yet, something that feels fresh. ---> Since images of fierce heated fights are still small in numbers, the music is something that feels fresh.
  • Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17 - retranslating and adding foreign concession.
  • Locked Girl - retranslating some parts.
  • Lunar Clock - ...Even if the house was rich... ---> Speaking of, a Theremin is technologically advanced, but would it
  • U.N. Owen Was Her? - Not really sure about this retranslation.

Kageshirou (talk) 16:02, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17[edit]

Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17 >> Shanghai Alice 1884

This title sucks. It means nothing to anyone who doesn't know the Meiji calendar, which is too many people. There's a ref in the music comments that points out Meiji 17 corresponds to 1884 CE, but there's really no reason to keep it in the theme title when no one understands what it means.

--Cosmicsorcery (talk) 23:17, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually, there is: the title does not say Shanghai Alice of 1884. It says Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17. We need to honor the exact translation as best as we can when translating titles. Code Slasher (talk) 05:19, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Translation Tweaks[edit]

I'd like to suggest a few changes to the translations of these song titles over here:

  • "A Dream That Is More Scarlet than Red" and "An Eternity That Is More Transient than Scarlet" could have their "That Is" removed, to get rid of some clutter while retaining the same meaning.
  • "Crimson Tower ~ Eastern Dream..." should have its "Crimson" translated as "Scarlet", since it's the same "紅" that is translated as such everywhere else related to EoSD.
  • "Tomboyish Girl in Love" can be better paraphrased as "Lovestruck Tomboyish Girl", which is closer to the title of its PoFV arrange, "The Adventure of the Lovestruck Tomboy" (Which I would also suggest changing to "The Adventure of the Lovestruck Tomboyish Girl", to get full correlation). This is important because the only difference in their japanese titles is the "の冒険" added at the end.

What do you think? --Bambex (talk) 02:50, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Here's what I think about each of the points:
  • I agree that you could get rid of 'that is' to maintain the same meaning. Personally, though, I think we could go one step further and change the titles to "A Dream More Scarlet Than Red Itself" and "An Eternity More Transient Than Scarlet Itself." I'm aware that I'm probably in the minority here, but I initially misinterpreted the first title as being similar to the phrase "The sea here is more green than blue." In other words, "you could say that the dream is red, but I really think it's more of a scarlet colour." I think adding 'itself' to the end makes it clear that the dream is actually just really red, so red that it's redder than red itself.
  • I wholeheartedly agree with this point.
  • I don't have a strong opinion either way, but I feel that the PoFV arrangement could be better worded as "The Lovestruck Tomboyish Girl's Adventure." [Just because it looks cleaner]
That's my 2 cents regarding this. It would be great to hear from others out there, too! Biggest Dreamer (talk) 06:59, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Maybe we should revamp the title theme and ending theme titles entirely. I am not quite sure why the original translator switched the word order in both of those titles so much, but then again, why "い" is in both of these titles is beyond me. It seems unnecessary. Nonetheless, I think we should stay away from using extra words like "itself" if at all possible, even if they do add emphasis.
  • Quite frankly, I do not want to see this translation changed, but it needs to happen for the sake of consistency.
  • I disagree with this one the most. The title does not use the word for "lovestruck" (which means the PoFV title probably should be "Adventure of the Tomboyish Girl in Love").
Code Slasher (talk) 01:25, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
Don't "Lovestruck" and "In love" mean the same thing? I think "Adventure of the Tomboyish Girl in Love" sounds pretty clunky. --Bambex (talk) 06:05, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
Clunky or not, we need to be accurate. "恋" is not "恋煩いの". Code Slasher (talk) 12:08, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
Going to throw my two cents into this.
  • I agree with removing "That Is" but strongly disagree with adding "Itself" as we shouldn't add extra words.
  • I also don't want to see this translation changed. The current title has already been ingrained in the fandom and it is technically correct (the best kind of correct). However, I understand the consistency part.
  • This is the one where I disagree the most, like what Code Slasher said.
I think we are agreement of at least changing the first one to remove ("That Is") so I'm going to go ahead and change that. THPatch also has removed that. --DTM (talk) 00:39, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Since it's been a while and there hasn't been any real arguments against it, I'll change "Crimson" to "Scarlet" too.
But going back to Cirno's themes, I just want to throw out there the possibility of using "enamoured" instead of "in love", before we standardize the translation between the two. In which case we could also reword the PoFV theme as "The Enamoured Tomboyish Girl's Adventure", just as Biggest Dreamer suggested. How does it sound?
--Bambex (talk) 07:14, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't think we should use "enamoured" instead of "in love" as it has a different meaning and connotation which we shouldn't change unless it is more accurate. I rather do what Code Slasher suggested above. --DTM (talk) 04:26, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Girl's Secret Sealed Room[edit]

Yo uhhh I dunno if this has ever been brought up, but? "密室" doesn't necessarily mean "secret room". It's most often used to refer to a sealed room, as in a locked-room mystery. The Afterword's music comment makes it clear that this is the context ZUN was using it in. (he was really into murder mystery stuff back then too, like, the first windows trilogy has a bunch of Souhei & Moe series references and stuff. its neat.) Whoever translated Patchouli's theme title waaaaaay back in 2005 probably didn't know about all that, but it really should be "Girl's Sealed Room" instead. Gilde (talk) 16:31, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm surprised you didn't make the change already. Ennin (talk) 10:58, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

A Soul as Scarlet as a Ground Cherry[edit]

Now I know this particular theme has had a lot of discussion surrounding it for the past decade but I'm surprised, really surprised, that no one has pointed this out. ほおずきみたいに紅い魂 does not have 赤 in it. It uses 紅. Throughout the entire game and everything related to it, 紅 is always translated as scarlet. Heck, the main menu theme is literally titled 赤より紅い夢 (A Dream More Scarlet than Red). The current translation of this theme goes against all previously set standards. 紅 is not just "red". It's deep red. Scarlet. ZUN himself makes this distinction, as seen with the title screen's theme. The only argument I can see against this is that the word scarlet is "overused". I don't believe that's a valid argument, however. Scarlet is ZUN's most applied word (along with fantasy, dream and their variations). It appears frequently in multiple games. So of course it would be prominent in the Embodiment of Scarlet Devil (not to mention the fact that 紅魔郷 has been translated "Scarlet Devil Land" since this website's Wikia days). Thoughts? Ennin (talk) 10:53, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Haha, good call. It probably should be that. Code Slasher (talk) 03:49, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Something Amiss Regarding "Shanghai Teahouse"[edit]

This is possibly yet another bombshell discovery (is it?). I've noticed that 上海紅茶館 doesn't just say "Shanghai Teahouse", it actually says "Shanghai Scarlet Teahouse". Am I missing something here? How could this have possibly been overlooked for the entirety of the Wiki's existence (I've checked the edit history to make sure). As far as I know 紅茶館 (Scarlet Teahouse) was going to be the original title of the game. I know 紅茶 means "black tea" but it literally translates "scarlet tea" (black tea is colored red), and in the music comments for the song ZUN says that it's referring to the blood tea that is served to Remilia. Searching around the internet, "Shanghai Scarlet Teahouse" is commonly accepted as the track name in many OST/VGM websites. It seems like a lot of people knew about this already. Any objections before I make the change? —Ennin (talk) 03:16, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't think it's a necessary change because the part you're looking at "紅茶" doesn't only translate to "Scarlet Tea" (and honestly, if anything just as you said "black tea" seems to be a common translation). I see it translated to Black Tea, occasionally red tea, but most commonly, the normal translation for just "tea". You're not wrong, but the translation you're coming up with (Shanghai Scarlet Teahouse) doesn't appear to necessarily be a better translation, so much as it's more of a different translation.
Also, searching around the internet as you said myself doesn't give nearly that many results to make it as commonly accepted as you say (searching the term in Google with quotes only brings up 30 results, some of which are VGMdb articles where the title came from 2009 translations, or the page of EoSD itself from this wiki that was listed under then fandom section back in 2011). Megaman-Omega (talk) 05:00, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
This shouldn't really be a discussion like that. "紅茶館" isn't a singular word. It doesn't translate to "teahouse". "茶館" by itself is teahouse. Why should 紅 be ignored when it is so obviously referring to "scarlet" (as the old game title was supposed to be 紅茶館, literally "Scarlet Teahouse"). ZUN even says in the music comments, as I've pointed out, that the title refers to the blood tea that Remilia drinks? 紅茶 literally means "red/scarlet tea" but we don't call it red tea in English. We call it "black tea" (even though the liquid is red) because the leaves are dark when grounded. China and Japan literally call it 紅茶 (hong cha; ko cha), "red tea". It wouldn't be called "black tea" in this case because of culture, and, obviously, because "scarlet" is a major theme in this game. 紅茶 isn't just "tea". It's "red tea". In the case of this game, 紅 is always "scarlet". Can you find any evidence that "紅茶館" is a single word? And how can you deny that it obviously refers to the unused title of this game? I'm not trying to sound combative but it seems like this is just resistance to change because of tradition. Also, regarding this game, ZUN uses always uses 紅 purposefully. It's not a coincidence.
From the omake.txt of the game:
今回は「紅」がキーワードです。紅が色々盛り込まれています
This time, the keyword is "scarlet". There's lots of scarlets and reds included.
I, personally, think this is as blatant as it gets.
Ennin (talk) 05:30, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
You make a good point, and ZUN did love using scarlet a lot in EoSD. Though because of how few people sadly frequent these talk pages when something like this gets brought up (I see maybe five or so tops really) I think you should bring this up on the Discord or something to get more people's opinion, as opposed to "I'm gonna change it if no one says anything here".
Though if you do end up changing it, can you make sure every instance of it is changed across the wiki? I've noticed it coming up a lot with these recent edits and tweaks to EoSD's OST. But they get changed in one place, but there's many music pages still using old translations that cause annoying inconsistency where you've got one translation somewhere, one translation somewhere else and another translation somewhere else. Just, if you're gonna keep updating old translations make sure everything matches everywhere you go. like when all the instances of Vaisarvana were changed to Bishamonten when that was being discussed. Megaman-Omega (talk) 06:37, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Oh, are you talking about "Girl's Secret Room" and "A Soul as Red as a Ground Cherry"? In those cases I was not the one who ended up making the change, another user did. I actually made the final Vaisravana -> Bishamonten changes myself and tried to do that throughout the whole wiki. I understand how frustrating that is when an old translation changes and how the rest of the Wiki remains inconsistent after that. I'm not purposefully trying to stir anything or change for the sake of change, it's just that these old translations genuinely need updating. When the change gets made I'll try to make it consistent with the Wiki, although I don't suspect I'll catch everything instantly. My thought process on change is "if no one chips in, then change it". Why? Because that causes people to notice and then more discussion can be had. But I certainly never make big changes immediately before using the talk page (which is what we're doing now). Anyway, thanks for being understanding and sorry if I'm coming off as too defensive.
Ennin (talk) 06:53, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Ah, my mistake. I saw you talked about both those topics here so I just assumed you were the one to make said edits. And yeah, I agree old translations should be still be looked at (there's a reason why the self updating thcrap is used for playing the games as opposed to a hard patch using old translations).
But I just suggested getting people's opinion on Discord cause I've seen a lot of talk pages go "So it's been a month and no one's said anything sooo" or people not even realizing it was brought up in a talk page before it was changed. Better to get a lot of people's opinions when dealing with the translation of an old and classic song when said translation could be older than some of the people frequenting this wiki. Megaman-Omega (talk) 07:13, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Well I got approval from three seperate people (two in the Wiki Discord and one in thpatch Discord, said person is also a wiki editor) and no negative responses. I'm gonna make the change. Just as I did with Vaisravana -> Bishamonten, I'll try to change it throughout the whole wiki for consistency. Alright then, here it goes.
Ennin (talk) 08:50, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
P.S.: For the record, I tried to do my best to change the important sections of the wiki for "Girl's Sealed Room" and "A Soul as Scarlet as a Ground Cherry". Sorry that I missed some, lol. Code Slasher (talk) 02:17, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Dream of the Red Chamber[edit]

It hadn't occurred to me before but it's quite obvious that 紅楼 in "紅楼 ~ Eastern Dream..." is referencing the Classic Chinese novel "紅楼夢" (Dream of the Red Chamber). Considering the other light Chinese motifs in the game and that 紅楼 itself is an idiom that refers to "sheltered chambers where the daughters of wealthy families lived", I'm certain the reference was intentional. Anyway 楼 itself has three seperate translations of "tower", "chamber" and "mansion". I dont think it's "tower" for plain to see reasons, so it comes down to "chamber" and "mansion". The novel's title is very rarely translated as "A Dream of Red Mansions" or "Red Mansion Dream" but since "Dream of the Red Chamber" is the most widely known name and we already translate 館 as "mansion" I think that "chamber" is the better pick. Also since EoSD itself very clearly distinguishes between 赤 (red) and 紅 (scarlet) I believe the best way to keep the book reference in the and the game's color distinctions would be to translate the title as "Scarlet Chamber ~ Eastern Dream" w/ a footnote. —Ennin (talk) 18:14, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Actually, now that you mention it, it seems very obvious to me that ZUN could be referring to the Scarlet sisters' mansion, although I could see how "tower" could be a reference to their clock tower. Not much of an explanation, I know, but hopefully someone else can chime in on this. Code Slasher (talk) 02:32, 21 March 2020 (UTC)