Talk:Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum

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About that image[edit]

The image looks like it's from the sprites. It doesn't look original and should be removed. Anyone else agree? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 14:59, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Not removed but replaced. I will take a normal screenshot. ☢ Quwanti 21:08, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Proposal to Move to Dream Palace of the Great Mausoleum[edit]

What does everyone think of my suggestion? "Dream Palace: The Great Mausoleum"? Code Slasher 02:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so obviously that doesn't work. However, I can vouch for "Dream Palace of the Great Mausoleum". A careful, broken-up analysis of 夢殿大祀廟 yields "Dreams," "Mr.," "Large," "Shrine," and "Mausoleum." Also, the characters refer to a great mausoleum and never a palace. Thus, "Dream Palace" is either a quality or section of "the Great Mausoleum." Of course, that means I should have said "Great Mausoleum: The Dream Palace", lol. Code Slasher 22:27, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Just so you know, 夢殿大祀廟 is used in a lot of places. - Kiefmaster99 20:35, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
I will be changing the name to Dream Palace Great Mausoleum for 夢殿大祀廟, as that is the dominant translation throughout the wiki. - Kiefmaster99 05:27, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, then. I'll just revert your edit and edit the rest of the wiki for consistency, as "Dream Palace Great Mausoleum" is grammatical nonsense. How's that? Code Slasher 20:47, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Last call before I do some massive editing on the wiki and change wherever this is found on the wiki to "[the] Dream Palace of the Great Mausoleum". Speak now or forever hold your peace! Code Slasher 18:27, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
There is some problem with the wording of the proposal. The way it's worded right now states that it is a Great Mausoleum of the Dream Palace, not the other way around. As well, I don't have an issue with the current title - it makes as much grammatical sense as "Scarlet Devil Mansion Lobby" or "Niagara Falls Suspension Bridge". - Kiefmaster99 19:40, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
With all due respect, it's not quite like that. The characters refer to a great mausoleum and never a palace. Thus, "Dream Palace" is either a quality or section of "the Great Mausoleum".
Also, in all honesty, we should say "Scarlet Devil Mansion's Lobby" or "[the] Lobby of the Scarelt Devil Mansion" (there is only one lobby) but keep "Niagara Falls Suspension Bridge" as is or change it to "Suspension Bridge at the Niagara Falls" (there may be more than one). Code Slasher 19:47, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
That way of phrasing is very common in English. I can pull other numerous other examples, such as London King's Cross railway station, modify it to read <blah> platform garbage bin, University of Toronto St. George Campus, etc. It can work both ways (University of Toronto's St. George Campus is also sometimes used), but omitting the "'s" or "of" does not make it incorrect.
With respect to Dream Palace Great Mausoleum:
The way "Dream Palace Great Mausoleum" is worded means "Great Mausoleum of the Dream Palace". I don't quite fully know how Japanese use their wordings, but looking at some examples such as Tokyo International Airport (東京国際空港) or Osaka University (大阪大学), it works similar to English. - Kiefmaster99 20:22, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The adjective "Great" seems to throw off the flow of the phrase a little, in my opinion.
Even so, the characters don't refer to any "Dream Palace", so it must mean that the "Great Mausoleum" takes priority. Hence, perhaps "Great Mausoleum Dream Palace". Code Slasher 21:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps Toho Moto Neta might help a little with this regards. It says of 夢殿 that it refers to the "Yumedono" of Horyu-ji. In other words, "Dream Palace" is not correct - it should be "Hall of Dreams." If you read the Wikipedia page for Horyu-ji, you can clearly see that it is a place with close ties to Prince Shoutoku.--Tosiaki 21:25, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah! Maybe it should be "Great Mausoleum Hall of Dreams"? That would make more grammatical sense. Code Slasher 21:32, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
I guess that this does indeed make the most sense.--Tosiaki 21:50, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Whether it's right, wrong, or a recommended method, I don't know, but this translation offers Grand Temple of Dreams. I assume that's equivalent to Great Mausoleum of Dreams, as it would be here, but it bypasses "Hall" entirely. Again, I don't know if doing so is right, but it's just a suggestion for one translation. U❊T❊W 08:46, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
That seems to be a different place entirely. We'll see what the others (Tosiaki and Kiefmaster99 in particular) think. Code Slasher 10:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
That translation on danbooru was probably without knowledge of what Yumedono was referring to.--Tosiaki 11:04, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Seconding Tosiaki's statement regarding Yumedono. It is consistent though with the grammatical structure I was suggesting. - Kiefmaster99 20:47, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, if there are no further objections, then I will correct the 32 pages that have "Dream Palace Great Mausoleum" on them to "Great Mausoleum Hall of Dreams". Okay? Code Slasher 07:18, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I have found other translations used by the fanbase:
Danbooru - Yumedono Daishibyou (tag; straight-out Romanization; 4 images)
gensokyo.org/TL patch - (The) Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum (music/stage 5 location); Stage 4 location omits Great, possibly out of space consideration
I have two other translations backing myself now. "Grand Temple of Dreams" (despite getting yumedono incorrect) and "(The) Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum". "Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum" is something I would be willing to accept as is. Noteworthy of the latter translation is that it is the only external translation I could find that interpreted Yumedono correctly, made ~5 months ago. - Kiefmaster99 10:17, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Will we ever get this translated? I can't really form an opinion on any of the translations right now. Tosiaki, we need some help! Code Slasher 23:54, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
I would say that the latter translation of Kiefmaster99's suggestion is perfectly reasonable.--Tosiaki 00:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
To put a nail in the coffin, consider other locations used that follow the same logic and grammar I am proposing:
命蓮寺墓地 (Myouren Temple Cemetery)
騒霊屋敷 (Poltergeist Mansion)
地霊殿 (Palace of the Earth Spirits)
命蓮寺墓地 is worded similarly to 夢殿大祀廟. Certainly you aren't proposing that Myouren Temple Cemetery be reworded as Myouren Temple of the Cemetary or Cemetery Myouren Temple, right?
On a different note, Yumedono('s) Great Mausoleum is about the only other translation I'll accept. Since the article uses "Hall Of Dreams" though, let's just stick with "Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum". The song title can be "The Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum". - Kiefmaster99 00:51, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Great Mausoleum Hall of Dreams...... - KyoriAsh 01:26, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

-_-' Myouren Temple Cemetery could be a different case entirely in terms of grammar.
Arrgh, it's racking my head as to why "Hall of Dreams" is not an element of the "Great Mausoleum" ("We are jiang shi, arisen to protect this magnificent mausoleum." "The door to the great mausoleum will finally open...." "One might say that this mausoleum is Gensokyo's Akashic Records...."). If it was, then by you guys' new grammar logic, it should be "Great Mausoleum's Hall of Dreams". Code Slasher 02:51, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Well, it does seem that it is indeed, a mausoleum - that is to say, "Hall of Dreams" is an additional name to it. However, I think that one thing we haven't looked into yet is the word 大祀, which seems like it might be important as well, since the current translation essentially leaves out the . Perhaps someone with more knowledge about this, especially since there seems to be something about this here, although I currently do not know what to make of this.--Tosiaki 04:05, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
In one sense, that seems to be referring to a large shrine, but in another sense, it seems to be referring to a festival of some sort, perhaps for adoptions. Code Slasher 05:11, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
The relationship between the "Hall of Dreams" and "Great Mausoleum" cannot be inferred from dialogue, as the "Hall of Dreams" isn't mentioned anywhere in it. Also, given the absence of "Hall of Dreams" in the dialogue, it makes even less sense to call the place "Hall of Dreams" when all the characters make a reference to a "mausoleum", "tomb", or similar. - Kiefmaster99 10:36, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Exactly! They never mention anything about palaces or halls. What should we do? Code Slasher 22:14, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

"Hall of Dreams" has to be interpreted in the context of the story background. In this case, it refers to the IRL "Hall of Dreams".
In the game itself, as you have brought up,
"We are jiang shi, arisen to protect this magnificent mausoleum."
"The door to the great mausoleum will finally open...."
"One might say that this mausoleum is Gensokyo's Akashic Records...."
...all refer to a mausoleum. This mausoleum has to refer to the building in the background of stage 5. Yoshika's Stage 3 quote only point to a door to a mausoleum being opened (seen later in stage 4). Seiga's Stage 4 quote refers to the door at the end of the stage leading to the mausoleum. 夢殿大祀廟の洞窟 does not necessarily have to refer to a hole in the building, as the current translation suggests (IMO, should be a cave leading to the building). Miko's Stage 6 quote refers to the same building.
Mausoleum is the common noun here. The building can only refer to a "???????? Mausoleum", in this case "Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum".
The reverse doesn't work because the characters were not travelling to any "Hall of Dreams". - Kiefmaster99 04:58, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree with your "cave" theory, as 夢殿大祀廟の洞窟 contains "large cave".
I'm starting to see where you're coming from, but your last statement confused me. Are you suggesting that they are already in the Hall of Dreams? I was able to verify the ties to the prince, but I can't find anything about a mausoleum, so it must mean that the mausoleum is indeed in the Hall of Dreams, right? Code Slasher 13:55, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
I can only think of two ways as to how "Hall of Dreams" could be interpreted. It can refer to some external IRL Shoutoku structure, or it can simply refer to the fact that the Great Mausoleum is in the style of the "Hall of Dreams". I am having a bit of trouble connecting the former idea, unless the Hall of Dreams is really that important (not to mention disproportion in size). If it's the latter, it makes some more sense. Either makes more sense than calling the building itself the "Hall of Dreams". - Kiefmaster99 19:58, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
I propose that we change the name of this article to "Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum", since we can all agree that "Hall of Dreams'" is preferred over "Dream Palace". - Kiefmaster99 14:53, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Agreed. Or, for poetic flow, we could use "Great Mausoleum of the Hall of Dreams", but I'm open to either one. Anyone else agree to Kiefmaster99's suggestion? Code Slasher 21:02, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Support It makes the most sense so far.--Tosiaki 00:45, 15 March 2012 (UTC)