Talk:Hata no Kokoro

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Menreiki?[edit]

A question. I've been trying to track down more information on the menreiki, but all I've really found is this Japanese Wikipedia page. So I need to ask, is Kokoro a menreiki, the menreiki or the only menreiki? Thanks. --Universalperson (talk) 15:56, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Interestingly, en Wikipedia created a page for menreiki not too long ago. Anyways, I would just stick with "a menreiki". - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 16:08, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Oooh, thanks for pointing that out. --Universalperson (talk) 17:37, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Hats? No hats?[edit]

The wiki's standards for headgear are pretty low, but I'm not certain whether masks would count. --Wymar (talk) 16:58, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Masks are not hats, true. With that said the characters without hats page states that the category is for characters "with nothing on their head". It probably should be renamed to "characters without headgear", but as it is now Kokoro doesn't belong in there. Saya (talk) 11:49, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

about variation of kokoro's masks[edit]

In Nicovideo Encyclopedia, the all variation of Kokoro's masks are listed on the curren version of "Hata no Kokoro" article as below:

  • 女(喜):割と平静
  • 般若(怒):荒々しい
  • 姥(哀):沈み気味
  • 火男(楽):陽気
  • 猿(困):下手
  • 翁(笑):フレンドリー
  • 獅子口(驚):!
  • 狐(凄):シリアス

My temporary translation:

    • Woman (delight): quite still
    • Hannya (anger): brutal
    • Old Woman (sadness): a little melancholic
    • Hyottoko (pleasure): light-hearted
    • Monkey (trouble): unskilled
    • Old Man (Laugh): is friendly
    • Mouth-Opening Lion (surprise): !
    • fox (threat): gets serious

Well, I guess these list should be added to the section of character design. But before it, I suspect some of them aren't correct — Mouth-Opening Lion (shishiguchi) & Old Man (okina).
About the former; shishiguchi has http://nohmask21.com/shishiguchi.html a more angle chin]. I guess Large Popping-out Eyes (oo-tobide, 大飛出) or Thunder & Lightening (raiden, 雷電). I prefer the former to the latter, because the latter has something jig-zag on chin while Kokoro's mask doesn't.
About the latter: masks classified into man has variation. I think we can identify it as god of happiness (fuku no kami, 福の神). But it's possible to be Good-Age-Celebrating Servant (emmei-kaja, 延命冠者). I suppose the former is probable for the something between eyebrows.
About the others; masks classified into woman have very wide variation, so we shouldn't be able to decide which mask is "woman". Beside, Old Woman is also difficult: Old Woman (uba, 姥) or crying nun (naki-ama, 泣き尼). Monkey is Monkey (saru, 猿). Kitsune might be Old Woman (kitsune, 狐), but it should be more possible to be no relation to No or Kyougen, i.e. a ordinary, normal mask as you can see here. --masuo64 Talk 01:26, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Kokoro has another mask which explicitly is a lion, since it's identified as such in the spellcard that uses it. So the surprised face probably isn't one. Anyway, Nico certainly isn't privy to special canon knowledge that we aren't so there's no reason to copy it, but I don't mind using it as a reference to talk about her various personalities.Clarste (talk) 01:33, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Pretty certain that the 'woman' mask expressing joy is Ko-Omote. I guess the mask-emotion translation could go in additional information. Just be careful as these correlations are fan observation/research and may be imperfect. --Aquamarine39 (talk) 23:56, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Zeami's Fuushikaden[edit]

masuo64-san, could you verify where you got the information on Hata no Kawakatsu? I am still trying to confirm the details. I did improve the wording and fixed some errors I know are wrong. Thanks for the analysis though! --Aquamarine39 (talk)

It's a pity that I expect you forgiving me to present only source written in Japanese (because I'm a native Japanese and live in Japan), but I read and summarized the books beyond:
  • Yamazaki, Masakazu (eds.), Nippon no Meicho vol.10: Zeami (Chuuou Kouron Sha, 1969)
  • Shuuichi, Katou (eds.), Nippon Shisou Taikei vol.24: Zeami (Iwanami Shoten 1974
    • 山崎正和編『日本の名著10 世阿弥』(1969)中央公論新社
    • 加藤周一編『日本思想大系 24 世阿弥・禅竹』(1974)岩波書店
The former is the original text of an classical written Japanese (文語文), and the latter is the translation of it. The description added by me was more than a half of the part which mentions Hata no Kawakatsu (precisely "Hada no Koukatsu" called in the books). I'm sorry but I don't know the English pages on the Internet but Japanese one, from the 4th section "Of Divine Rituals" (Dai-yon: Shingi ni iu, 第四 神儀に云う). And I've realized I must confess that a part of my edit might be what is called independent study, or what some people find deliberate; the idea isn't accepted broadly among Touhou fans (of course, among the original source lovers, neither) that Soga no Moriya must escape to be the ancestor of either Sanae's clan or the real Moriya clan. I've seen this hypothesis supported only by those, who love interesting fanfics but don't care about whether the source is probable. --masuo64 Talk 09:26, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. I should be able to read them slowly with a dictionary at side. I've just never heard about the part with Moriya, so I just wanted to confirm while proofreading. --Aquamarine39 (talk)
Seeing "Zeami" at Wikipedia, there are some lists of references like Hare's, Romers', etc. They would be your help. But I guess Hare's "Zeami, Performance Note" (from pp.47) would help you. Hmm, the whole revise shouldn't be able to be avoided^^; --masuo64 Talk 09:18, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

ULiL profile retranslation[edit]

Kokoro's ULiL profile has been retranslated, as that was necessary. Input would be greatly appreciated. --Huppa (talk) 16:21, 12 July 2016 (UTC)