Talk:Hidden Star in Four Seasons/Music

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Illusionary or Illusory?

This is a bit pedantic, but though 'illusionary' and 'illusory' mean the same thing, 'illusory' is used far more often. Because of this, I think a strong case can be made for changing 'illusionary' to 'illusory' across the board. For example:

  • Merriam-Webster links you to illusory straight away when you search for illusionary.
  • A google search for "illusory" and "illusionary" in quotation marks reveals 11,100,000 results for 'illusory' as opposed to 3,170,000 results for 'illusionary.'
  • Even the wiki itself doesn't recognise illusionary as a proper word.

With that in mind, I'd like to propose that the stage 4 theme's title be changed to Illusory White Traveler. Biggest Dreamer (talk) 03:45, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, the main reason for people using "illusionary" is probably consistency, as this is used for a ton of stuff already. But I would argue that the difference is that something being "illusory" implies that it actually doesn't exist, that the thing itself is merely an illusion and potentially gives the appearance of being real but upon inspection is not. Meanwhile "illusionary" seems more specifically to me as something "of" illusion; its properties are those of an illusion. Specifically in the context of Touhou, it is as though it is something belonging to Gensokyo (幻想郷). Personally I feel that 幻想 is also appropriately said as "fantastical" or "of fantasy", but between "illusionary" and "illusory" I would pick the former. Drake Irving (talk) 04:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
That's a very good point. I originally just thought that 'illusionary' was a sort of misspelling of 'illusory' and didn't stop to think whether they actually have different meanings. But if they actually do (especially in the context of Touhou), then I see the sense in keeping 'illusionary.' Thanks for clearing that up! Biggest Dreamer (talk) 06:02, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Jizo? Backup?

Why is Narumi's theme no longer translated as "The Magic Straw-Hat Jizo"? Should it have never been that to begin with? I don't know cultural stuff that well but I'm probably not the only one wondering this. Also, how does "バック" translate to "backup" in the Stage 5 boss theme? They certainly don't seem to be backup dancers seeing as they're the bosses, and even then it would have to be "バックアップ" for "backup". Sherkel (talk) 05:58, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

After reading their abilities "backup" makes a lot more sense, but that would mean we need to change stage 6's translation too as the literal reading of the kana is equally awkward. Sherkel (talk) 06:14, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

バックダンサー seems to be a loanword for backup dancer regardless. It's play on their abilities and this word simply having the word "back" in it, which is obviously relevant throughout the game. Meanwhile "Into Backdoor" is exactly what it means; saying "Into Backdoor" might sound awkward but the intended reading doesn't change the meaning. Meanwhile "Crazy Back Dancers" changes the intended meaning because it uses a loanword. I can see the argument but don't particularly agree. Drake Irving (talk) 06:27, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Fuck! :P Guess this means I need to back down, but I'm glad to have that cleared up. What about the Jizo thing? Sherkel (talk) 07:33, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
See Talk:Narumi_Yatadera. Personally I'm more for Jizou but it isn't set in stone. Drake Irving (talk) 08:13, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
If we want to be consistent with how we do Music Themes, I think it should be it should be Ksitigarbha, which is the term used in English to refer to this Diety and the name used on the Wikipedia page. Personally, I think if there is a standard form in English, we should use that form. --DTM (talk) 16:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
As a native English speaker I know I've heard "Jizo" before and never "Ksitigarbha", but that's just anecdotal. I'm just gonna use "Jizo" because it's easier to say and accuracy is often second to that in translations for me, and let the rest of you decide which is more "correct". Sherkel (talk) 19:35, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, likewise voting 'Jizo'. ZUN mentions in the music comment that Japan's modern jizo statues are several steps removed from the original Ksitigarbha anyway, so I don't see much problem with it. Gilde (talk) 20:53, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I personally prefer "Jizo" (or "Jizou"?). I think in this case the term is more strongly tied to its Japanese context (since it's a reference to the Japanese folktale Kasa jizo), while the other case I remember (The Tiger-Patterned Vaisravana/Bishamonten) erred more on the side of Buddhism, I guess. So that's an iffy justification we can make :P (Although I would've picked Bishamonten over Vaisravana if it were up to me, anyway.) Polaris (talk) 22:43, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
Ok it's been like, 4 and a half months, does anyone else want to chime in on the jizo thing. I think it's pretty clear that it's wayyy more strongly tied to the Japanese context and not the actual, original Ksitigarbha, so I still want to change it back to "Jizo"? Also if we're bringing other Sanskrit-originated names into this, a big chunk of the wiki still uses Bishamonten and Chen/Ran's cards use the Japanese names ATM (Idaten, Jikokuten, Dakiniten etc.) so there isn't really a clear majority in that regard, imo? Gilde (talk) 16:50, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
edit: also i feel like i should throw out there just my thoughts on this general thing: whichever variation is more closely tied to the character's cultural source material should be the one we use, imo? Like, Byakuren's HM skills and ISC cards all use Sanskrit and she's steeped in Buddhism on the whole, so rendering 大日如来 as "Mahavairocana" in her case gels with that. Chen and Ran are Onmyoudou shikigami, ie. East Asian concepts, so it's appropriate to use the JP names for theirs. and I feel like we really should use "Bishamonten" for Shou, since that syncretized Japanese incarnation of him-- not the original, unfiltered Vaisravana-- is the one that's relevant to all the Seven Lucky Gods and Treasure Ship stuff that UFO and Shou herself are based around in the first place. Thats Just Me Though Gilde (talk) 17:08, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
I already posted some of my thoughts on this, but I will say that the way we translate Buddhist terms have been pretty inconsistent. However, for the most part we on the wiki tend to use the Sanskrit version of the terms, like Preta, Dharmapala, Mahavairocana, etc., at least until very recently today when someone changed some of those. If we want to be mostly consistent, I would still recommend keeping Ksitigarbha mainly due to it being the standard english form and consistency with other music titles and practices. I think how we treat Buddhist terms could and probably should be a bigger discussion on this wiki as well. --DTM (talk) 20:29, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
The someone in question was me btw; I didn't change "some," only Dharmapala. Flight of Idaten, Rumbling Jikokuten etc. have all been in JP like that since the wiki was made, for whatever that's worth. I'm well aware that we use Sanskrit terms in most cases and support the use of them; the only ones I want to argue are "Bishamonten" (at least in the context of UFO), "Jizo" and the Onmyoudou stuff. (Also, if we're talking consistency with other cases and practices, Eiki and Mamizou's 地蔵 stuff has been consistently rendered as 'Jizo' up until now too.) Gilde (talk) 21:21, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
wait oh duh, sorry, 'dakini-ten' was me too. that one's still just consistency with ran and chen's other cards, though Gilde (talk) 21:28, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Crazy back dancers!

Good thing I didn't post here, or I would have just gotten mad. Yeah, no, "seems to be a loanword" doesn't cut it. The "intended meaning", which is clearly not known, is irrelevant because we're dealing with out-and-out English words here. You transliterate and move on, you don't try to translate English like that. God knows what would happen if people here tried to do that with non-Katakana English...

It's "Crazy Back Dancers". The entire nature of the game confirms this.

At best, it's a pun on this supposed loanword. Even then, there is absolutely zero reason to forcibly change it as has been done here. It is through this "translating English into English" nonsense that the meaning of the name has actually been changed, not through leaving the original English! "Backup Dancers" is at odds with what the characters actually are and what they do, as well as with everything else in the game.

That aside, "Into Backdoor" should be "Into Back Door". Stage 5 establishes this, and refusing to put interpuncts between certain multi-word terms is a common thing in Japan. Here, we have to ignore that "backdoor" is normally a compound anyway, because of Stage 5. Consistency is king, because consistency generally makes more sense, and it definitely does here. The people who care about "those Japs not knowing our language 100% perfectly!!!!" are usually the same people who say that English is a "living language" and can be distorted however one pleases.

Also, this other reading of "backup" I'm seeing doesn't work at all either, because you're suddenly asking a lot of Mr. "Jap Who Doesn't Know Our Language" that you weren't asking of him just before.

These are clear typos, please allow people to fix them. Despatche (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying. How does 'the entire nature of the game' confirm that it should be "Crazy Back Dancers"? On the contrary, I think there's a wealth of information out there that supports translating バックダンサー to 'backup dancer' rather than 'back dancer.'
In this case, バックダンサー isn't even a loanword. It's what we call wasei-eigo. In other words, it looks like English, but it isn't. In these cases, we should always go with the proper English term which, in this case, is 'backup dancer.' I would like to present two websites to prove my point: [1] and [2]. The title of [1] can be translated as something like "To become a 'back dancer' involves..." and the title of [2] can be translated as "4 things you should know before auditioning to be a 'back dancer'." What's the common thread between these two? Yes. 'Back dancer' should be interpreted as 'backup dancer,' because that's just what we say in English. That's what the profession is called. I only chose two sites, but I can guarantee that you will find countless more sites by Googling that phrase. When choosing to transliterate or translate katakana words, it's always important to look at how the word is used elsewhere. It's clear that バックダンサー does not refer to anything other than 'backup dancers,' which proves that バックダンサー should be translated, not transliterated.
Transliterating katakana words is useless if it's just going to make things harder to understand. Satono and Mai are backup dancers, because they dance behind the protagonists or other people. That's simply what backup dancers do, and our audience (in this case, people who speak English) will understand the connection immediately. 'Back dancer' muddies the waters. I look at that phrase and compare it to 'tabletop dancer,' which now makes me think that Satono and Mai literally dance on top of people's backs. Is that what they actually do? Is it worth transliterating these titles if it invites that sort of misinterpretation?
In summary, my problem with your argument is that バックダンサー is not an English word. Instead, it's a Japanese word masquerading as an English word. It has an acceptable and commonly used translation, which I believe we must use here. Yes, language is fluid, but that doesn't mean we should ignore commonly accepted standards. Biggest Dreamer (talk) 00:14, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
But that's not how Japanese or English works. If it's an English word and not something made up, it probably means something when you attempt to transliterate it. Meanwhile, your strange interpretation of "backup", which is exactly what I had feared would happen, makes no sense. That's not what "backup" means (especially not in the so-called wasei-eigo you're referring to).
The misinterpretation is clearly on your end. What the game is doing is fine, and we should be respecting that. Again, what you're doing is very dangerous to play with, because you could easily try to apply this to every single actual Latin-written English phrase ever used in the series that you happen to find "off". You have just established precedent allowing people to do this! Please excuse me as I go fuck with every "weird" game and song subtitle ever (not actually doing this, just trying to make a joke). Despatche (talk) 13:44, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Backup Dancers are performers who dance with or behind the lead performers, which I think conveys what the abilities of Satono and Mai are, drawing out people's vitality/mental energy by dancing behind them, so I don't know how this is a "strange interpretation." I agree with Biggest Dreamer and the other people above. Interested on what other people think about the other point of Into Backdoor vs Into Back Door though. --DTM (talk) 19:22, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
lol at "so-called wasei-eigo" Polaris (talk) 04:53, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
Yeah Despatche I don't know what to tell you dude. In every context where you can find the word "バックダンサー" it's literally the exact same thing you'd call a "backup dancer" in English, this ain't hard. Also why are you so ornery about everything, maybe chill out a little Gilde (talk) 03:42, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
So we're just gonna get rid of ZUN's joke in favor of a different title, as if people weren't smart enough to figure out what "back-dancer" means? Mddass (talk) 17:27, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
There's no "joke," just repeated use of the word "back". "Back dancer" simply isn't a phrase people use in English; it's gonna look straight-up bizarre to any native speaker. "Background dancer," "backing dancer," "backup dancer," all those are common English phrases, but not "back dancer." Please allow this helpful internet mole to explain Gilde (talk) 02:38, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Wait a minute wait, hang on. The mole has struck me with a realization. Despatche... did you think "backup" exclusively meant "spare copy"... (edit: i'm not trying to poke fun i'm genuinely asking, sorry in advance) Gilde (talk) 02:47, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
A translation, by its very nature, is inaccurate. If you want accuracy, the only way to go is with the original title. Also, English is a natural language and can be distorted, however one polices. If anything, it's only a similarly non-prescriptivist perspective that might justify transliterating the katakana in this case instead of acknowledging the existence of the loanword. Sherkel (talk) 07:51, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

So, this is what's been established:

  • People seem to be "genuinely curious" about things that have nothing to do with the topic.
  • People seem to think it's funny when people get angry over years and years of incompetence and bad faith.
  • This is not a translation, it's a impromptu localization. That's a really bad idea, all the time.
  • Even going with the wasei-eigo thing is a big assumption because of the context of the phrase as it's used in the game.
  • That is not what "backup" means. That phrase is "to back up", it's not a compound noun that you can use in something like this. The end result is manufactured Engrish by English speakers. There is a meaning of "backup" that you could actually attempt to bring to the table, but it still falls apart because of points 3 and 4.
  • You can apply this broken "wasei-eigo" logic to every single English phrase in the entire series that someone happens to find off. You know, such as all the game subtitles. It sets a terrible precedent that we absolutely should avoid, and there is no reason at all to go through with an exception here.

The correct phrase is "Crazy Back Dancers", and it's pretty weird that people can push things this far. It really needs to be understood that if this wasn't HSiFS with its heavy ura theme, we probably (see point 3) would not be having this conversation at all. Seriously, does anyone else know anything about this game's setting? Please listen to reason, instead of making things up like it's the dark days of 2005.

What the hell do you expect to do with alternative forms like "backing dancer" anyway? Just pick what you like and go with it? Doesn't sound very accurate to me, hm? Aren't you the guys so worried about getting a correct "translation"? Despatche (talk) 19:09, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

That's not what's been established at all.
  • My wasei-eigo argument is not an assumption. Nor is it broken logic. It is based in fact. If you search for the phrase on this website, you will see バックダンサー listed there alongside the correct translation, 'backup dancer.'
  • There is no slippery slope here because ZUN's English subtitles never use made-up words (except for that time he misspelt 'Spoiler' as 'Spoier' or 'Fairy' as 'Faily').
  • If we blindly transliterate katakana, we will make the same mistakes we made in the past. If you want an example, look at アレンジ. It should be translated as 'arrangement' when used as a noun, but somebody just left it as 'arrange' to begin with, and now we have phrases like 'Touhou Arrange' which make no sense.
  • We would choose which alternate form to use based on how commonly they are used. There is nothing arbitrary about that. A simple Google search reveals "backup dancer" appears 444,000 times, "backing dancer" appears 71,600 times, and "background dancer" appears 134,000 times. Incidentally, "back dancer" appears 76,900 times.
Your argument is vague on details and unconvincing, which is why I will not let this issue go. I'd like some things cleared up , so please answer the following questions:
1. What is 'ura terminology'? What is an 'ura theme'?
2. What is the difference between a "Back Dancer" and a "Backup Dancer"?

Biggest Dreamer (talk) 20:47, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Backup Dancer vs Back Dancer
Back DancerとBackup Dancerはどう違いますか?
A backup dancer also known as background dancer is a performer who dances with or behind the lead performers in a live musical act or in a music video. Their movements (especially where there are many moving together) provide a visual symmetry and rhythm to accompany the music. - Taken from English Wikipedia
また、メインのダンサーの後ろで踊るダンサーの事バックダンサーと呼ぶことが多い。 - Taken from Japanese Wikipedia
Hope this will clarify things - KyoriAsh (talk) 00:35, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Colorless Wind vs. Autumn Wind

Though the current accepted translation for the Stage 2 theme is "The Colorless Wind on Youkai Mountain", a friend who speaks the language mentioned that the "色無き風" is actually a saying that means "autumn wind", and shouldn't be broken up into "色無き" and "風". A quick Google search of the full phrase shows that it does, in fact, mean "autumn wind". Because of that, I'd like to change the Stage 2 theme to "The Autumn Wind on Youkai Mountain." Zenryaku (talk) 21:32, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I find that changing it into "autumn wind" makes it lose poetic value, specifically for a music title. If ZUN wanted to write "autumn wind" plain and simple, he could've just wirtten "秋の風". So why not keep it "Colorless Wind" and write a footnote?--Splashman (blub) (talk) 22:58, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
For poetic value, we could substitute something like "autumnal wind" in place of "colorless", because colorless is a bit of a pointless description of wind. Wind doesn't usually have color, anyway, so it sounds a bit redundant to describe the wind as colorless. A footnote can't be read anywhere else but on this wiki, so the vast majority of people would just assume the wind was colorless and not autumnal, as the phrase means. Zenryaku (talk) 01:42, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Personally I've left it as "colorless" until now b/c the first 4 stages have that whole 'seasonal colors' theme going on in the stage & music titles, which I wanted to preserve... but yeaaahh I get where you're coming from w/r/t "colorless wind" sounding pretty weird. What about "Cold Grey Wind," for instance? I think that sounds poetic in a way that's sensible in English, while still keeping the color thing going Gilde (talk) 02:27, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
I feel like it would be a waste translate it straight up as "autumn wind" and lose out on the poetic meaning of "colorless" (which isn't necessarily a redundant descriptor of wind, as in this case it's "colorless" as in dull, drab, lifeless, fitting with the commentary about "adding a sort of melancholy"). I'm perfectly fine with keeping the title as is, but to offer up some alternatives, we could just pick a related word (I'd go with "Dreary Wind"), compound the two words ("Colorless Autumn Wind"), or both ("Dreary Autumn Wind"). (Although my choice of "dreary" loses out on the color thing that Gilde mentioned.) Polaris (talk) 09:30, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Ah, I missed that meaning of "colorless", although it still does seem a bit weird to use. Personally, I support "Colorless Autumn Wind" because it keeps the color theme Gilde had going and the poetic meaning of "colorless" as well as adding the "autumn" that I've been pushing for. Zenryaku (talk) 09:50, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
What about replacing "colorless" with "clear"? Autumn sounds like the time of year you're most likely to feel a "clear wind". --Prime32 (talk) 19:53, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Using "clear" could work in the sense of describing wind, but it would lose out on the color theme Gilde kept in the stage and music titles; I think "Colorless Autumn Wind" is probably the easiest way to go about this. I think I'll wait a little longer to see if anybody comes up with any more ideas before changing the song title to that. Zenryaku (talk) 02:49, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm cool w/ whatever everyone else wants to go with ('Clear' is still a visual kinda word so it wouldn't be that hard to mentally connect it w/ the color thing imo?) but... now that i actually thought about it some more i'm way more partial to 'cold grey wind' over the 'colorless' that i originally put ( ・∀ ・) Gilde (talk) 03:17, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
I still feel that the "autumn" is necessary to making the translation keep its meaning... although I don't mind anything else we put before it as long as the "autumn" stays. I'm willing to go with "The Cold Grey Autumn Wind on Youkai Mountain", though; it does sound nice to me. Does that title sound good enough to everyone else? Zenryaku (talk) 10:44, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
The word "autumn" isn't actually in there in the first place, though? It's a fancy roundabout poetic phrase for "autumn wind" but it. doesn't actually spell out the word "autumn", is the thing. Like I don't think it's a huge mental leap for someone to see the words "cold grey wind" in a game about seasons and think "ah ok, autumn". Gilde (talk) 14:50, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
Notably none of the other similar titles include the season explicitly either. Drake Irving (talk) 01:04, 15 January 2018 (UTC)