Talk:Joon Yorigami

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Jo'on or Joon[edit]

Anybody else think we should romanize her name as Jo'on instead of Joon? A lot of people are already doing it and it's not super unheard of. The same thing, for example, is done with ZUN's real name (Jun'ya). It makes the repeated vowel sound a lot clearer to people unfamiliar with the specifics of Japanese pronunciations. And looks nicer too, in my personal opinion. --MagicNineball (talk) 06:45, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

We discussed it a bit on the Thpatch Discord; we both decided to use Joon. What do you think? Mamizou (talk) 07:02, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
If we're opinion-polling, then I wanna say Jo'on for pronunciation clarity? but I'll go with whatever everyone else agrees on either way Gilde (talk) 07:05, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
My own issue with "Jo'on" is that I reflexively give it a glottal stop. Mamizou (talk) 08:00, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
That's the intention of the apostrophe so you don't pronounce the 2 'o' together. Lebon14 (talk) 08:55, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
ZUNspelling in omake.txt:  ○最凶最悪の双子の妹, 依神 女苑, Yorigami Jyoon --Splashman (blub) (talk) 08:14, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
If the official English translation is actually something that happens, then they'll probably throw at us an official way to write it that we can go with. (Although that's still far enough in the future that I guess we could decide on a placeholder? In which case I'd vote for Jo'on.) Polaris (talk) 09:43, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
I'd be voting for Jo'on as well, I am not confident enough in gaijins abilities and we might hear such wonderful pronunciation as Jun lol --Yamaxandu (talk) 12:46, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
I'd go for Jo'on. --CapTengu (talk) 13:37, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Voting for Jo'on, too. Without the apostrophe, I'd end up reading it more like じょーん. --Popfan (talk) 15:21, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Voting for Jo'on as well. The first time I saw "Joon", I instinctively pronounce it "June". And the ' in "Jo'on" stops that instinct. Also romanizing her name "Jyoon" is just the Japanese romanized under the Kunrei-Shiki romanization rules in which there is an exception for "jyo" to be written "jo". So, that's a non-issue. Lebon14 (talk) 15:56, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Obviously, the correct answer is Jyoon. It's not a non-issue, and worrying about a group of people who have zero interest in anything to do with Touhou is a waste of time. When you have people who claim to know better outright stating that they don't here, you have a huge problem and you need to avoid things like apostrophes like the plague. Apostrophes are indeed a plague, that make the already terrible Hepburn even more terrible. Despatche (talk) 17:09, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

I concur with no apostrophes, but would probably prefer Joon. To me at least, an apostrophe leads me to do a glottal stop. We should probably avoid using apostophes as much as possible. Switching Jyo to Jo is just continuing the "tradition" of prefering Hepburn, whether correctly or not, and besides that we shouldn't be altering the romanization any further with apostrophes. --DTM (talk) 17:20, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
I know I started this topic in the first place, but I've also changed my mind to 'Joon' after realizing that we don't add an apostrophe in 'Motoori' either. It'd be inconsistent. --MagicNineball (talk) 22:28, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Oh ya that's true re:the Motoori thing, agreed Gilde (talk) 01:13, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Legitimately forgot about Motoori's situation, thanks for reminding me. I guess getting rid of the Y is fair since it's done for everything else. But I really think people need to obsess over Hepburn overwriting a little less and worry more about what ZUN actually calls his characters. "He changes things sometimes" is usually brought up as an argument, and it's such a weak argument: just pick the first use (the most important use) and mention the others in trivia, problem solved forever. The only exceptions I can really think of are anything to do with Flandre or Cirno (mostly just Flandre, Cirno is more or less set in stone), because ZUN really fucked up with tEoSD. Oh well. Despatche (talk) 04:00, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
I always pronounced Motoori "Moto-ree" (ie. Motōri (long o sound)) until you guys brought it up. This is why we should spell her name Jo'on, so people won't come up with "June" or "John" as pronounciations and we don't get stuck with a bad name like Flandre and Maribel in the long run. Lebon14 (talk) 21:18, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Actually, the name should be Jion. I copied her first name in hiragana and pasted on Google Translate, and I saw the "i" for "じ". Nintenchris5963 (talk) 05:20, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Are... are you trolling? Polaris (talk) 08:23, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Okay, assuming you're not trolling... That's wrong. The first name in hiragana is written out as "じょおん", and while the first character "じ" is "ji", that's not all there is to it. The second character is a "ょ", which you may or may not recognize as the hiragana for "yo", but smaller (compare "よ" and "ょ"). In Japanese, the two characters "じょ" together make the "jo" sound. Together with the rest of her name, we get Joon (or Jo'on, which is what we're discussing here).
If you are just starting out on learning Japanese, I suggest that you hold off on making bold corrections until you have a better grasp of the language. In the meantime, if you have some questions about how something is translated (or romanized, in this case), you can always ask about it on the talk page. Polaris (talk) 08:55, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

For what it's worth, they're already using Jo'on as the tag on danbooru. We have to decide this soon, or it'll be out of our hands when people continue to use what they're familiar with. Assuming it's not too late already. Clarste (talk) 00:06, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

I think we should standardize on Jo'on as it appears that that spelling is used more frequently. -CapTengu (talk) 02:01, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
Actually, I think Joon is the spelling that is used more frequently from what I've seen. And it seems that a majority of people that have commented prefer no apostrophes, so I think we should settle with Joon. That is what is currently on THPatch as well. --DTM (talk) 02:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
It is also 100% in our best interest to *not* be Wikipedia with their worship of "the common name", which tends to be ignorant mistakes more often than not. This is yet another reason why just using the source is always better: you can't argue against the source itself, but you can always argue against any weird mistakes (anything involving an apostrophe or Hepburn overwriting) or totally fabricated names (every single unofficial translation) people create. Despatche (talk) 21:43, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
I don't quite think that's the case either, as ZUN doesn't consistently use any kind of romanization system; not across works, not within the same game, and not even within one name. He just does whatever, which suggests he doesn't actually think about it that much. They're arguably there for flavour more than they are actual points of information, so taking it as a source is questionable. The actual name, in Japanese, is the true source. There are cases where the romanization informs the origin of the name in Japanese and thus are useful, but this is only relevant with ambiguous names in katakana (hence why we still ended up using "Nazrin" despite it definitely not being pronounced the same). Meanwhile as far as people's preferred spelling goes, it's really hard to say some choices are truly "wrong" when split between many equally correct options. Using different romanization systems is the obvious one, but I also can't really correct someone who wants to use Frandre. This puts the wiki in an odd prescriptive-descriptive predicament where generally people tend to use translations and spellings from here as though they're authoritative, but in cases where it's arbitrary with no clear "correct" option or consistency to follow, being descriptive and going with what's common (especially if it's long-standing) is just the least problematic choice because everyone is using it anyways. Drake Irving (talk) 06:57, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Something I'm surprised nobody's mentioned yet is that typically in romanization the purpose of this apostrophe is to disambiguate pronunciation and writing. However, Joon is already unambiguously split jo·o·n; there is no other possible interpretation. The usefulness of Jo'on has been for people unfamiliar with how to pronounce it, and obviously I see the benefit of using it, but it isn't actually relevant in the normal context of using the apostrophe in transliteration. Drake Irving (talk) 06:57, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

The spelling "Joon" is correct, but I believe the pronunciation is "John". (That's actually funny.) Nintenchris5963 (talk) 11:10, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Not exactly, you have to pronounce the second "o", "John" would be just ジョン (or じょん, "jo·n"). That's the reason the "Jo'on" spelling was even used, to disambiguate the pronunciation for people unfamiliar with the japanese pronunciation. AlphaPizza (talk) 14:47, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Even that much isn't really correct, as the お sound is lower than the sound in "John", which sounds more like "jawn". ジョン would be pronounced more like the name Joan with a nasally n. Drake Irving (talk) 23:23, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
I was actually laughing about the John part. That really cracked me up. Amyways, maybe "Jone" would be better instead of John. (Dammit, not again!) Nintenchris5963 (talk) 03:29, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

On second thought, it's not Joon and Jo'on after all. It's actually "Jyoon". I saw it in this video of someone playing Touhou 15.5 when the English words are actually subbed while the game is in Japanese. Nintenchris5963 (talk) 02:49, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Different romanization systems. Mami (talk) 03:13, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Tough-Luckiest?[edit]

The character titles of the two new characters are currently translated as 'The Worst, Tough-Luckiest (Younger/Older) Twin Sister', but I don't think 'tough-luckiest' is an appropriate term to use here. This is because 'tough luck' is a set phrase that you say to someone when something bad happens to them and you don't really care. It isn't an adjective.

Looking at the original phrase 最凶最悪), it seems to be used to indicate a sense of underlying malice or danger. For example (going off a quick Google search here), you have 最凶最悪ゴールデンフリーザ (Dragon Ball reference) or 地上最凶最悪超人. 最凶 (saikyou) is of course also pronounced the same as 最強 (saikyou), which could be a reference to AoCF's introductory text talking about the 'strongest pair.'

I'd personally go with '(Younger/older) of the Most Diabolical Twins', changing the order of the words since 最凶最悪 is modifying 双子. Either way, I think it deserves a bit more discussion before we settle on a translation. There might even be a way of incorporating the 'misfortune' element of in there, too...Biggest Dreamer (talk) 00:43, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Ya, the 最強/最凶 pun is def. what they were going for; there's things like the character-select screen saying "最凶の二人を作れ!" instead of "最強の二人" like most people would expect. I imagine it's supposed to look kind of ridiculous? (Like, "you're asking me to make the worst pair possible? whaa?", that sorta thing.) I didn't come up with "Tough-Luckiest"-- I saw it on the thpatch wiki and borrowed it from there-- but I feel like the fact that (as you said) it's an obviously dumb-looking Frankenstein adjective made it appropriate for a "ridiculous pun" situation like that. Like, it fits with how Joon and Shion claim to be the toughest around, but are actually a couple of losers who bring "tough luck" to everyone including themselves? And it's got their "misfortune" aspect right there already, with the word "luck" being in it. Anyone else wanna weigh in though? Gilde (talk) 01:13, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
How about "disastrous"? --Yamaxandu (talk) 18:07, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Tough-luckiest was my idea of a cleverly dumb pun. I still think it fits, but I agree it's not the best choice. "Disastrous" is a good idea, so we decided to go with "Create the Most Disastrous Duo!" for the character select. As for 最凶最悪, we could use "The Worst, Most Disastrous", or for complete exaggeration: "The Most Despicable and Disastrous".--Splashman (blub) (talk) 14:49, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
Oh! Thanks very much for the input. "Most Despicable and Disastrous" or smth like that sounds good then, yeah Gilde (talk) 04:50, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
So can we agree to change it to "Most Despicable and Disastrous" yet? Incidentally, the phrase is used constantly in story mode to refer to them as the "Most Despicable and Disastrous Pair" and other things. Honestly, I think Tough-Luckiest sounds so terrible that I'd rather not leave it up any longer than necessary. Sorry Splashman, it just sounds really really awful to me, and not in the way intended. Clarste (talk) 11:44, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
I suppose for comparison, over at thpatch we (informally) decided on changing all instances of 最凶最悪 to "worst, most disastrous" (and 最凶 to "most disastrous") a while back to make them all consistent. Polaris (talk) 19:09, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Joon's Appearance[edit]

From the looks of Joon's appearance, is she some kind of celebrity or something? Nintenchris5963 (talk) 03:11, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

I think she just likes expensive looking stuff lol --Yamaxandu (talk) 16:02, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
She reminded me of Shuuka Hanazono from Idol Time PriPara. Nintenchris5963 (talk) 05:26, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Joon's Personality[edit]

And here I thought and hoping that Joon is gonna end her sentences with "desuwa~" and laugh with "ohohoho~" as well as saying "gokigenyou~". Nintenchris5963 (talk) 17:05, 12 January 2019 (UCT)