Talk:Marisa Kirisame

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Ordinary, or Queer[edit]

Eh? I know about her evil personality but I thought she was an "ordinary" witch? Still, great stuff to have a translation =)--ChronoReverse 20:26, 18 Apr 2005 (PDT)

'Queer' is a horrible translation in everyway possible. It's the exact opposite in fact! Marisa is supposed to be the "Ordinary witch" with her broom and a hut in forest. --Sssssz 00:32, 23 Apr 2005 (PDT)

Queer, Strange or whatever you would like... strangely she's described as "奇妙な (Queer)" in EoSD text. However, in PCB and later series she's refered as "普通の (Ordinary)"... I wonder what caused ZUN to describe her in completely opposite way. -- Aona

It also seems to fluctuate between "normal" and "normal black" magician. I guess ZUN was drunk and forgot? --nameless fairy

Even when Marisa solves the mysterious problem or rushes in, she calls herself "ordinary". Of course, she is not "ordinary", but it's a comedic or ironic manner. It must show how Marisa's personality is: she doesn't want to be too proud of her job and she trys to deceive not to be blamed of burglar.

Did she really?[edit]

That "Marisa is the person who actually taught Reimu how to fly."... where did you read about this?
I don't think I've read something like this in official sources I've been reading in past... well, perhaps Puregirl CoLA?
If it's fan-fiction stuff, please state so in same line like other fan-thing in Fan Facts (like Chugoku and such).


Oops, I must have gotten that into my mind from watching too much of Touhou 2's Bad Endings and Marisa trying to train(?) Reimu with stuff. Retracting immediately. --Leviathean 07:26, 14 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Help...

She is a complex lose-hater that hates a lose-hater whose elicit their sign of being lose-hater.

As is the nature of a magician, she is very intelligent, but does NOT act cynically nor sets off Cobalt Bomb with shout of "Fuck you, Human!!"

Collectomaniac or Kleptomaniac?[edit]

Apparently I noticed this a while ago, and it bugged me.

Some of Marisa's profiles (the *.txt files) translated on this article use the word "collectomaniac" instead of "kleptomaniac".

Is this translation literal in context (ie, a translated pun with the kanji) or is it a mistake (the two words sound familiar, seem to have the same meaning, but one isn't real)?

Kleptomania's definition:

Wikipedia:Kleptomania

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kleptomania

-Inu

I think "collectomaniac" is what they're going for. Marisa doesn't steal from compulsion, she does it because...well...she's Marisa. The "collectomaniac" part is from a few references (mostly in CoLA) that she likes to collect stuff and doesn't like to throw anything away. For instance, Kourin found a legendary sword in a scrap pile that Marisa kept just because she didn't wanna throw away a pile of scrap.

Luceid 07:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

An old subject, but a compulsive collector could be called a Syllogomaniac. Though that might assume she doesn't consider her hoard even somewhat useful. Arekku 02:52, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Name[edit]

"Marisa doesn't make much sense though... the first character means "magic", the second "logic" or "reason", and the third "sand"."

Marisa is just a feminine given name. 90.156.33.152 13:11, 23 February 2008 (PST)

I disagree. Western names do have meanings, it's just that most of them are archaic. If you give ZUN the benefit of the doubt and assume that he chose "Marisa" with some meaning intended, then there's a few possible meanings. From what I can find, there's debate over where it comes from, but most of the sites seem to agree that Marisa either comes from "Maria" or "Maris". Maris is latin for "of the sea", wile Maria comes from the hebrew Mary. According to behindthename.com, there's dispute as to what Mary means, but the possibilities they list include "Bitterness", "rebelliousness", "Wished for Child", and "Love". So it's a bit of a stretch, but rebelliousness would fit Marisa pretty well.206.174.3.88 04:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Oh and jisho.org says that 魔 means

1: demon; devil; evil spirit; evil influence; (Noun suffix)

2: someone who (habitually) performs some (negative) act

I don't know much about kanji, but those definitions seem pretty different from "magic".206.174.3.88 04:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Magic is called 魔法 (mahou) in Japanese, the Ma in Marisa's name is taken to mean this. _dk 07:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Deadkid dk. I think the biggest reason why she is given her name "Marisa" by ZUN is that it sounds so girlish and cute. From Meiji era, some people tried naming their children after Western European-like names, for example Mako, Eliza. So some Japanese people's names aren't Japanese-like in careful looking. In fact, the name of one of my friends is Risako (理沙子), which sounds never odd, but isn't traditional. It's too modern. What I want to say is the most important is the sound "marisa", or else the character "MA" (魔).

It sort of makes sense considering Gensokyo is apparently stuck in the Nineteenth Century. Remember, back then the Japanese used Kanji even to write foreign names if they were proper nouns, I believe (ateji), for example America was written 亜米利加 though nowadays it's (thankfully) just written using Katakana. If you're familiar with the series When Seagulls Cry, many of the characters have Westernized Japanese names. The spelling of Marisa's name may be on the same line of thinking, though this is just my assumption.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Wererat42 (talkcontribs) 2009-09-06T12:49:25 (UTC)

Playgirl[edit]

Well we know that Marisa is hitting alot of characters right? She's the only character who already got in EoSD,MoF and SA

Another stolen spell card[edit]

In UFO, Marisa just stolen Aya's attack from Subterranean Animismin Reimu C.

Da-ze[edit]

Where does Marisa's catchphrase "da-ze" come from?

Do look at Marisa's Dialogue in EoSD, for example. It appears in the other works, also in another type "ze". "ze", "da ze". Both aren't quite different to Japanese people. --Masuo64 12:53, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

だぜ isn't so much as catchphrase as it's just a more masculine form of です. Makes Marisa sound more rough than the other girls who use words like ですわ, and if a translator elects to not leave it untranslated, they'll usually make her speech more brusque to reflect this. --Wererat42 16:25, September 6, 2009 (UTC)  

Makes her sound bad-ass. A mix of assertive, confident, and daring. It's cute, unless you're someone who doesn't like Haruhi-type characters. TheTrueBlue 17:29, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

12.5 Appearance[edit]

Marisa's appearance has changed in 12.5. I wonder if people pay attention to that...I think it should be added to her main profile. She no longer has that "M" on her outfit, and her hat seems to be more pointed now. Well, maybe someone else can describe it better than I can.(Maybe some other characters' appearances have changed as well in this game?) 24.13.162.218 22:46, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

Wands[edit]

I figured I added this in talk in case people become skeptical...

Story of Eastern Wonderland: She uses a star wand in battle.
Phantasmagoria of Dim.Dream: Take a look at her portrait when she casts a spell.
Lotus Land Story: One of her Bad Endings and title page.
Undefined Fantastic Object: Her character portrait.
MaronaPossessed 18:16, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Alternate palette from Touhou Hisoutensoku[edit]

I see that there's some conflict on whether her alternate palette from Touhou Hisoutensoku is purple or blue. Well, there are two palettes that seem to match the description. One has her completely purple (including her hair), while another has only her clothes and hat blue and her hair red. It's just my guess but the completely purple palette seems to make some reference to Patchouli, while the blue-clothes and red-hair palette is the one making reference to Marisa of the PC-98 games. I'd like to know how u all think. Deathsoul4 04:57, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

In the PC98 games, she is completely purple. No sign of blue. MaronaPossessed 06:32, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree with that. So the purple one should be the reference to Marisa of the PC98 series, but among the palettes, there's one that has her wear bluish purple (I took a look at it again and now it doesn't look completely blue) clothes and red hair. Also in Story of Eastern Wonderland, although Marisa wears purple clothes, she has red hair, kind of similar to the palette I just described. Assuming that the completely purple palette is the PC98 reference, does anyone think that the blue clothes and red hair one is a reference to Story of Eastern Wonderland? Probably there are two palettes out there making reference to the same PC98 series. Deathsoul4 02:31, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
Oh, btw, I'm allowed to post images here? Maybe it'll help clear some confusion if I could post the images I'm describing here. Deathsoul4 02:33, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
Sure. Post the images. MaronaPossessed 02:51, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, here's the blue palette I think some people were talking about: MarisaPalette1.png
And this is the Marisa completely purple: MarisaPalette2.png

I dunno if it's just on my computer or not, but the red hair Marisa's clothes look slightly bluish. Probably that's why there has been some recent edits on the palette color. I agree on your point that the purple palette is a reference to Marisa from the PC98 series, but the purple clothes palette in Hisoutensoku has Marisa's hair even purple, while in PC98 games Marisa's hair was red (in Story of Eastern Wonderland) or yellow (in all other PC98 games). Probably I'm just being too stingy about the palette color, so please correct me if I'm wrong on this. Deathsoul4 03:04, September 28, 2010 (UTC)

The blue pallette and red hair would be suitable for the pc98 games, and the completely purple one would resemble patchouli. MaronaPossessed 15:30, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
Alright. Thanks for your time on this issue. I hope that would clear some confusion amongst people. Deathsoul4 20:25, September 28, 2010 (UTC)

Consistency Issues[edit]

Ok, make a decision, because we have order of appearance (pertaining to description...) in ascending order (From Old to New ) in some profiles, while others have descending (New to Old) order... so make up your minds?

(Post in the community talk section if necessary...)

♥★♦ 01:57, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Regarding palette comparison[edit]

red-hair blue-outfit marisa more resembles VIVIT than SoEW marisa. If you're only comparing hair color then you could say that it's based on the older colors, but our own sources say that SoEW marisa had purple outfit.

VIVIT's a maid with a blue dress and a white apron --Tsukihime 14:17, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

VIVIT has a light blue dress and Marisa has a rather dark blue in her palette, so I can't see this reference. Must have forgot to say that... Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 14:30, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't look dark blue at all. And definitely wouldn't be considered purple. --Tsukihime 15:22, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
mmm... it doe's look more to SoEW Marisa to me. I mean, can you really make one palette looking like two things? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 15:55, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes. That's how art works =P --Tsukihime 23:40, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Things needing attention on the Marisa page[edit]

Alright, I rewrote the main description, the appearance section, and updated the page for the new InfoBox layout. However, a few things are missing, and I would like to have some help since I have to edit the Youmu page, as well as dig in canon to rewrite the relationships sections for Reimu and Marisa before Comiket 80 since the wiki will get a lot of traffic.

Things needed to be done;

  • A relationships section needs to be added and written, the original page did not have one. Add the section under concept for now.
  • The story sections needs to be rewritten in the same style as Reimu's.
  • The Fandom as well as the Trivia section need to be looked over.
  • Spellchecking the grammar.

--Sefam 01:53, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Disputing Marisa's "Other Ability"[edit]

I believe she can only copy danmaku if it's within the scope of being a witch, in fact there are several instances like...

"Not feeling like it"

  • Nitori's "By the way, I don't think I will imitate this danmaku. It really makes me feel anxious and disturbed." Meaning she does not like it and will not take this one.
  • Shizuha's "There's a bit of a miserable feeling, like the melancholy that comes when I have to clean my garden, and I don't want to copy this spell card." This depresses her and does not want to copy.
  • Minoriko's "With moderate sunlight and rain, that will ensure that the farming efforts will not be lost. But what earthy danmaku. I'm not interested in this at all." This bores her and she doesn't want.

"Can't do it"

  • Hina's "This spell card uses her specialty well; as she spins in the water, it starts to sting. I can't copy this spell card, nor do I want to. " pretty much defeats that statement.
  • Aya's "Anyway, since this danmaku cannot be referenced for my magic in any way, it is only good for training my dodging skills." Being a Human Witch pretty much says that she can not do this one. Can't reference, can't copy.
  • Sukia's "This sort of thing isn't really danmaku. I can't use this as a reference at all. She really is just a monster. " This is a Oni trait and being a Human Witch does not allow this.
  • Sukia's "This isn't danmaku either, and it really hurts." Same as above
  • Sukia's "As always, I can't use this as a reference." Same as above
  • Flandre's "A spell card where clones are made and they each attack as they like. While I don't think I'll be able to make clones of myself like this, I still want slaves." Marisa states that she can not

"Out of Reach"

  • Chen's "This kind of unreasonable power-up technique can't be imitated by humans." pretty much says Marisa, a human, can not do this one.
  • Sukia's "Since she's not used to using spell-card-like spell cards, when she decides to use one once in a while, this unfair spell card is the result. Oni sure are behind the times. They don't know the newest spell cards for playing around." Also suggests cards from the past can't be copied by her.
  • Yuugi's "Though I don't know how she does it - as Yuugi takes a step, this skill buries the area around her stride with high-density danmaku. Though it's nearly instant death in less than three steps, since Yuugi's three steps are too wide, it's basically instant death. But it's marvelous how she places her danmaku as if she wants me to enjoy this. She shows that even in a feat of strength, she can find leisure to play. It's a shame I probably won't be able to imitate the oni's incomprehensible techniques. Even so, there are various oni around. Hmm." This is beyond her comprehension.
  • Kaguya's "An unreasonably big ceiling. Formidable, considering that this is said to be one tile. I can't really imagine the tree from which this is made. Bringing that tile over is a foul move. The pressure that the big walls give is abnormal. Holding this tile up with her two hands and showing it off to everyone, Kaguya is scary. By the way, this rare item gets in the way so I don't want it. In the end, Kaguya's spell cards all make use of special items, so I realize that they can't be referenced. She doesn't really use her own ability in spell card battles. Maybe the lunar urbanites aren't adapted to spell cards." Can't use since items are used in aid of spells.
  • Ustuho's "Superhot fireballs. Though it's fine to graze the danmaku a little, touching the fireball just a little bit makes me fear for my life. Hence, large evasions are a must. I think, other than daring and precise actions, there are no countermeasures. Even the mini-hakkero can't produce such high temperatures. Nuclear fusion sure is amazing." The Mini Hakkero limits her power to do certain spells.
  • Patchouli's "A spell card that crystallizes the basic unit of five magics and makes them shoot. Because it calls forth many magics, the danmaku that is released from each stone is weak. She's probably only capable of making it fire automatically. I want to know how to make these kinds of stones, but the specific procedures aren't written in any books I look at. The philosopher's stone. What I got from reading books was, it's capable of turning non-metals into metals, curing everyone's health, and it makes good topping for any culinary dish. Man, I would love to make a five-colored boxed lunch topped with philosopher's stone" For lack of a book, means no copy
  • Flandre's "If I get hit, then there will be none. When your opponent disappears, you can't tell where attacks will come from, and it's scary. In this situation, avoiding the danmaku is dependent on being able to see the opponent. For what it's worth, I want her to tell me how she can hide her form like that." This says that she does not know how by herself.
  • Tenshi's "A spell card that violently makes the ground uneven. By thrusting the keystone into the ground with fearsome power, the reaction raises the ground level of its surroundings. Somewhat like a chest of drawers. Forcefully closing one makes the others come flying out. Can I imitate this? Nah, probably not. They're not that heavy." Can't do it if she states so.
  • Yukari's "A spellcard that forces you to dodge within a border created by danmaku. This is scary. There may be many instances of having no elbow room, but not of being bordered by danmaku. That is because danmaku tend to expand. Common sense says that the volume increases and density decreases. However, Yukari's danmaku differs from this. As time passes, the border shrinks and becomes dense. When battling with an opponent, that would be the right thing to do. Put pressure on the space to stop the prey from escaping. Danmaku isn't made for an actual battle, but Yukari probably took the border between a danmaku for play and a danmaku for battle to create this barrier. That is the danmaku barrier. A bit too much for me to copy... " Is way to powerful for her to copy.

(Sorry, not trying to be mean, just avoid really big statements like that. Otherwise GJ!) I'd also like some "theories" on what spellcards she plans to take (Monochrome SPARK!!) and ones that she has taken from already!

♥★♦ 03:07, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

  • Oh, sorry, I thought that was already inferred/implicit. For one thing, we know she makes her master spark using her Hakkero, which Yuka probably did NOT use to make her own master spark. We also have a specific example of Marisa saying one of her spell cards was inspired by Alice, but she uses a different method to do it (IE, light instead of dolls that she won't explode because she thinks that's disturbing). And Marisa flat out states that she's terrible at making something that could mimic a slave card, which I thought obviously meant that she didn't have a way to create something that could be remote controlled (IE, obvious to the point where it didn't need to be pointed out). If the abilities section implies that she's like Gogo from Final Fantasy who can instantly mimic ANYTHING in a flash, then I guess I'll change it to make it clear that "mimic" is the case of a REALISTIC mimic. Like if you jump and I jump, I'm mimicking you. Not like if I see a dragon breathe fire, I can instantly breathe fire too. But if I find a flamethrower, I can then mimic that dragon breathing fire to some extent (I don't think it'd be very safe to hold that flamethrower so close to my mouth, tho, so I'd probably just use it like... well, how you'd use a flamethrower. The end effect is the same, just like Marisa using the Hakkero to mimic Yuka's master spark). TiamatRoar 03:22, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
  • As an aside, while Marisa is the most notorious for this due to her spell cards and Grimoire of Marisa, this is actually something that all magicians do. Marisa states in Grimoire of Marisa that it's "magicians who build on observation", not "only I who builds on observation." So technically, Patchouli and Alice learn by watching too. Just like... well... EVERY researcher, really. Actually, come to think about it, Patchouli herself says in Silent Sinner in Blue that it's a magician's pride to build upon someone else's work and add their own touch to it to make it unique. It's basically the equivalent of how any researcher builds upon others' research. Marisa just happens to be the most notorious for it. TiamatRoar 03:22, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
  • ...technically, instead of "ability", this should be filed under "personality", shouldn't it? Since it's not a particular abililty but instead something Marisa is prone to do due to her personality. TiamatRoar 03:24, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah right you are! But with the wiki, we must assume that the user knows absolutely nothing about these facts and we must make instances where this doesn't apply. To have all of these on that page is silly, but a few examples as u have just stated works just as well!

For your aside, you are correct again! Stating so in the article is important.

For the Technicality, parts of it should go under personality, but not the entire thing (as you said) I'm sure you know which parts go there, and I'll be on stand by to help you out!

(I also suggest changing Strength) (sounds like it belongs to Yuugi) to (Magic a better fit imo*) ♥★♦ 03:36, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

My edits[edit]

Ok This is a big page and just to do things w/o rhyme and reason is bad, so lemme tell ya!


  • Battle Record? I have problems accepting this term. for two reasons

1. This strongly suggests that we pick a perspective and declare it as true. None of the adventures say for sure Reimu or Marisa solved the incident. (Examples ) 2. Speaking of it, we have to think who REALLY solved it, Reimu or Marisa? They both couldn't have and this gets even more confusing when we start adding in the others... (So I nixed it, although if we speak in Terms of power, put that in the Contemplations page)

  • Danmaku that can kill? That is a bit of a large leap. We are sure that the spellcard rules are made for the Youkai to face off the current shrine maiden and this does not kill her (otherwise Hakurei Barrier breaks and is bad) I'm not even sure Danmaku hurts, so I removed that bit.
  • Removed the weird relationships stuff(Or Quwanti did, but I agree with him) The characters are separated by games so listing those are speculative (most Youkai are like Hey it's Red White!) and there is enough time for the relationships to change, so let's not mess with what definitive terms are with each other.
  • Rearranged a whole lot. A majority is in the Backstory

♥★♦ 02:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

  • I am not sure if you read the PC-98 Marisa sections and Seihou Marisa sections before you tried moving them since none of it actually had any relation to the backstory.
  • It might be just the standard to assume that all scenarios played out even if it would seem contradictory for that to be so. That is why we are able to say, "this character says X in this scenario" without having to attach a condition, "if you play as this character with this shot type, then conversation would have occured." However, I guess that for such statements, "defeat Remilia and Yuyuko," it might be good to attach, "she was able to" or something like that.
  • Not sure if you read the whole section or not, but what it actually said was that danmaku was not for killing.

In short, I am not sure if you read everything before you moved it, but some things in that edit and in your comment do not quite seem to make sense.--Tosiaki 02:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

There shouldn't be a PC-98/Seihou Marisa section to start with (THEY THE SAME CHARACTER). That's just like any other info around... Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 02:49, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
There are many people who disagree with that. In fact, PC-98 Marisa is very frequently portrayed to be a separate character from windows Marisa. That is why it is important to talk about how PC-98 Marisa is different.--Tosiaki 02:57, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
So what if people disagree. That's fandom talking. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 04:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Furthermore, it should be assumed by default that they are actually different, but that a portion from PC-98 is "carried over" into windows. ZUN himself has said so, that from windows the characters start over fresh, and that PC-98 can be disregarded, indicating that PC-98 is a somewhat separate existence (although obviously many portions are carried over, and exactly how separate it is is debatable).--Tosiaki 03:02, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes. Start over fresh, but it's just like a kid going from childhood to adulthood, starting new once again with a good job and such. There's clearly many backups to why PC-98 is widely linked to Windows (way larger than a portion), even if ZUN himself did say PC-98 is separate (maybe he just doesn't want to give info away on Yuki and Mai, or doesn't have any, but he did eventually said something about them. After all, he'll still give some good answer if he was asked something related to the PC-98 era). Also, ZUN could have avoided the 6 after MS for EoSD and create another Series or anything else, but he didn't. That must indicate that PC-98 and Windows are the same Project. Moreover, "PC-98 Marisa is very frequently portrayed to be a separate character". That's fandom talking. This wiki doesn't do fandom to official material, only under the fandom section. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 04:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
You should read this, specifically, the portion on the date 2003/05. I have translated it on the PC-98 page. They are definitely separate, but a portion is carried over. The PC-98 and windows versions of the characters need to be talked about separately.--Tosiaki 04:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Furthermore, the first two answers that ZUN made here on 2003/08 are very revealing as well. I will translate them and put it on the PC-98 page as well.--Tosiaki 05:11, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Note very carefully ZUN's reply, "definitely they have not changed." Whereas ZUN says that whatever is official is always the series' newest work, the canon of PC-98 games "have not changed". ZUN thus speaks of the canon of PC-98 as a separate entity.--Tosiaki 06:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
OK, now that's good proof, but I still think a section just for this isn't good. That's not the spirit of Touhou. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 01:10, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes, it is in the spirit of Touhou. Separate things in PC-98 have to be noted.--Tosiaki 01:18, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Please note that not only is this what this wiki is doing right now with the character titles (due to masuo's edit), but it is also what all the Japanese people are doing right now. Every single source separates PC-98 and Windows versions like this.--Tosiaki 01:19, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
And note that this even includes the Japanese wikipedia, which adheres strictly to canon and does not write about anything fanon at all.--Tosiaki 01:24, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
As for why the PC-98 Marisa is significant: if PC-98 Marisa was not very significant, the differences could have, of course, been noted in some other paragraph, or scattered throughout. However, PC-98 Marisa has significantly been noted to be quite different. Not only is her appearance very different, but even her tone of speaking and personality are significantly different. The "ufufu" and "atai" belongs to PC-98 Marisa, whereas "da ze" belongs to windows. And other numerous differences already noted in that section - that is why it gets its own section.--Tosiaki 01:33, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
I need to get my head round this........ Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 02:38, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Furthermore, it is actually significant for every character who showed up in both windows and PC-98. Though they have the same name and similar appearances, they are not the same character. So such sections should be created for Alice, Yuuka, and Reimu as well.--Tosiaki 02:44, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, for what it's worth, as much as I myself kinda hate to say it since I always thought the PC-98 games were canon in some way, assuming those ZUN statements are accurate and true, I find it hard to argue against Tosiaki's reasoning. In the posted links, ZUN apparently was even specifically asked about Reimu and Alice's past and said the PC-98 games don't apply. TiamatRoar 03:10, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I myself did not actually know this until yesterday when I looked up and translated those statements. In any case, it was somewhat late to get to know this, but at least we know this now.--Tosiaki 03:13, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Here is yet another portion from Gensou Bulletin Board that I have yet to translate before now:

Q.「アリス」は紅魔郷以前の東方シリーズに登場していたキャラなのですか?
A.アリスは東方怪綺談(シリーズ第5弾)でも3面ボスでした。特に関連性は無いし、思いっきり別人です(^^;ので気にしなくても大丈夫ですよ。

Translation:

Q: Is "Alice" a character who showed up before Embodiment of Scarlet Devil?
A: Alice was the stage three boss of Mystic Square (fifth in the series). Particularly there is no relation, and with all one's heart a different person (and so it is even okay not to worry).

On the other hand, there was also this answer:

Q.「アリス」は怪綺談のアリスと本当に関係ないんですか? A.一応、同一人物ですが、ストーリー的には一切関係ありません。妖々夢のストーリー的にも、まるで重要な位置にいません。(というか妖々夢体験版に出てくるキャラは、全員ストーリーに無関係です(笑))

Q: Is there truly no relation to the "Alice" from Mystic Square?
A: Although for once they are the same character, in terms of story it has absolutely no relation. Even in the story of Perfect Cherry Blossom, it was entirely an unimportant position. (That is to say, for the characters who came out in the trial version of Perfect Cherry Blossom, they are all unrelated to the story (haha))

In the end, perhaps I was incorrect in say that they were "different characters" in that they are not, but in terms of story, they are entirely unrelated. That is to say, they are the same in the sense that they are the "same" in some way, but different in appearance in personality and other things, (i. e. as if the character has been lifted into an alternate universe with no connection to the previous) so exactly what things are carried over from their previous version has to be up to interpretation (especially with "Grimoire of Alice" and the talk about "former friend,") but for all purposes, for this wiki, to treat them separately should be the way to go. That is to say, it would be appropriate to say "windows version of Alice" and "PC-98 version of Alice" but not "there are two characters named Alice."--Tosiaki 04:26, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

That is to say, "they not two separate characters, but they are different characters" is the way to put it.--Tosiaki 04:42, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

@ Tolaski: This is true. I don't want to make another character page for Pc-98 or Seihou versions of chars as that would be unnecessary. But since as you said the story/origins has either been ambiguous or "different". Therefore that's why I proposed to place that section in the Backstory, and still keep the label as "PC-98" & "Seihou" so that backstory would be explained (for those eras) and for "2000" we will list the backstory of Marisa's Unnamed Father. If you feel that isn't sufficient enough to separate the series, a Note in italics would suffice for PC-98 and Seihou shall be placed there.

Our Concept box is getting really large and I feel that a lot of the stuff can be placed in different sections of the wiki. Also part of this is some browsers have trouble displaying pages that are very large and apart from this, aren't very attractive.

@ TiamatRoar Keep at the posting! I will sort out where the stuff should go. Try to keep them within the appropriate sections, but not not hesitate to post what you think, we need this information to be presented to have a chance at being sorted.

@ Everything else: What I propose to move what stuff and where (with reasons as to why):

Remember kids, Concept box is basically the character at a glance with materials such as Name,Appearance, Abilities, Connections to the Real World and Literature etc, inside. History intensive things goes inside Story and Theories goes in Tony64's invented Theories Section, and any connections to other charters or any place inside Gensokyo goes to Relationships. Everything else that doesn't fall in those categories must go somewhere else (and just ask if you need help placing them there!)

  • PC-98 & Seihou Marisa to Backstory - Yes, I realize that this isn't part of "2000"'s backstory so using the tags "Pc-98 & Seihou" should suffice to cover this; and if not an italicized note to state so.
  • Actual family to Backstory - No tags necessary, helps to show that this one belongs to "2000"
  • Powerfulness to ...many things - Let's take this one bit by bit.

The first Paragraph indicated that her magic ability is notable and this warrants a tag of "Magic"

Then we go to the second Paragraph and we dive into origins which should be a synopsis which I felt does not belong in the Concept box. Origins should go under Backstory.

I am not sure how you are reading it as origins. It is simply a talk about what happened as it relates to her strength.--Tosiaki 17:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

The third and fourth Paragraphs then goes into a Tier related discussion. Yes, there are somewhat concrete talks of who is suppose to be stronger by who (Such as Cirno is Low Tier and Shikieiki is High Tier), but after that, we can do nothing but speculate and that belongs in the Contemplations page. Also, here we assume Marisa solved the incidents and that isn't so Reimu was always there when Marisa was involved, so we can never be sure it was Marisa or Reimu who solved the incident or even when (Did Reimu go first and then Marisa or vice versa or did one just go and the other "vanish"?) This isn't clear, but what we do know is the incidents were solved, we just can never know who did it and who (or even with who, as evidenced in PoFV) Some endings have to be assumed never happen (like Kotohime locking Reimu away or the main chars receiving a wish in PoDD; then what? Did all of them get their wishes, only one or none at all?) So as you see, it's a nightmare to figure this out, so I really suggest removing any thing that concretely states Marisa or Reimu was the one to solve an incident

I am still not sure what you mean by "tier related discussion" but the third and fourth paragraph do not contain any speculation. The third paragraph is only explaining a quote from the attached text file, and the fourth paragraph is only explaining the contents of the game itself.--Tosiaki 17:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Fifth Paragraph is guilty of this too.

That is not speculation either. That is also official.--Tosiaki 17:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Sixth Paragraph has a ZUN comment, in where this should stay... but not in the way it's being used at the moment. Where it should go is anyone's guess...

Seventh Paragraph explains the ZUN comment, which is fine, but the one explains Bosses intentions should be avoided, killing humans tends to give a Youkai a short lifespan because of the Miko so that may be why they do not kill. Also, the spellcards rules were made to fight the Shrine Maiden without endangering the Hakurei Border. There are more explanations, but it gives me a headache to list all of them so I hope I can leave it at that.

It is not explaining why the bosses do not want to kill humans. It simply says that the bosses do not want to kill humans.--Tosiaki 17:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Possessions to Can Stay - Good job on that guys! I agree with where that is 100%. This is something where the other tags can not explain.
  • Occupation to Can Stay - Another job well done! That can stay because this is notable and explains what no other tag can explain if placed somewhere else.

Any questions, just ask!

♥★♦ 22:42, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Nazeo, it still seems that you have not read what the PC-98 Marisa and Seihou Marisa sections actually say, since that part of your comment does not make sense. It would not make sense at all to move it to "backstory" at all, as none of it is related to backstory.

Also, I am not exactly sure what you mean by "Tiers," but this is not about speculation who she is stronger than or whatnot. It is not for speculating what characters she is stronger than but to give a concrete picture of what her strength is overall. As exactly how powerful Marisa is is perhaps one of the unclearest of all, that is why it is notable enough. In the Cirno article, it covers pretty much the same things in "Abilities," but for Marisa, it is more complicated. As stated earlier, perhaps the words "she was able to" should be added in front of sentences like "defeated Remilia and Yuyuko" but that does not mean that it is untrue.

Yes, there may be ten sub-sections in "Concept" right now, but the additional eight after "name" and "appearance" were the ones that I thought important to her character as a concept. So, now that I have completed adding those, there should not be expected to be much more than that.

Now as for size. If pages get too large, it would indeed be troublesome. However, the point at which one really needs to be careful about that is in the 200kb range. Right now, it is at about 100kb, only about 20kb larger than the Reimu Hakurei page. Before moving meaningful content out of the article, it should first be clear that such a thing actually is needed.--Tosiaki 02:13, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I did in fact read the Pc-98 and Seihou sections and like the one in Powerfulness, it's all over the place. Like with the one with "Powerfullness", I wanted to delete that section but I attempted to work with it. Besides, here is my strongest criticism for it:

Both sections read like this is meant for a Character page all crammed into one section which detracts from the attractiveness of the page.

What do I mean?

1st Paragraph is a appearance description.

2nd Paragraph and down then bounce between relationships she had (Reimu etc) and ends with extrapolation with her name... If we were to keep this, we seriously need to rearrange these sections as they are all over the place (and right now it reads like a trivia page...)

I will give you the point that perhaps it doesn't make sense for it to go in the Backstory, but for the purpose of everything we should rewrite it so it does.

For your tier comment, I must say that again, Tiers is assessing a power level which is vague for any character. In comparison Cirno is probably the weakest but the full extent for it is unknown. With Shikieiki, it is said that Reimu, Yukari and Yuyuko can't defeat her, but again, what is strong really? I must also say that you assume it was Marisa who defeated these people when it could've been Reimu who did it. ZUN made it so you can play the game, the incident gets solved and you can sleep soundly at night thinking the girl you picked did it, but he was also smart enough to make it so it wasn't expressly said who solved it. I appreciate the genius of this as this way the players can enjoy which heroine they pick and ZUN avoids contradicting himself in future games. So let's not assume things, that is bad. The most we can do with this is place this unsure stuff in the Contemplations page where it belongs. Besides I must disagree with strength anyway as the spellcard rules make it so you can face off against someone like Yuuka and still have a "Fair fight" as the Youkai hold back so this can never be exact. This was so the Youkai and humans can settle disagreements peacefully this way and it's "Fair on each side".

If you want the sources, I got plenty.

For Size, it still a lot on that page, and I want to trim it down a lot more, but this should be fixed on it's on if the other stuff were to happen.

Anyway, there is an obvious difference in opinion, so we will sort this out on Final Standardization until we have concrete descriptions.

♥★♦ 00:41, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

The purpose of the PC-98 and Seihou Marisa sections is to give an overview on the differences in personality and appearance and other things from the windows version of Marisa. Surely it belongs in no other section than "Concept." It would be a mess to scatter it all across the article, especially since PC-98 and Seihou Marisa are different, which is why they are each one section.
Furthermore, the power level of each character is definitely something that belongs in concept. If it is vague, then what needs to be done is to say what the original work says about them, and say that it is vague (as the section is saying right now). Contemplations are for speculations that do not talk much about what relates directly to the original work - nothing in the "powerfulness" section does that - just the bare facts from the original work. As I have said, perhaps the words, "she was able to," should be added to "defeated Remilia and Yuyuko" but the same point is made. For example, I guess one could say, "in Marisa's scenarios in Embodiment of Scarlet Devil and in Marisa scenarios in Perfect Cherry Blossom, she was able to defeat Remilia and Yuyuko" but I cut out the beginning because that part should already be understood. Furthermore, "strength" can mean many things, and it was made clear in the last paragraph that "strength" here means "strength within the bounds of the spell card rules."

--Tosiaki 01:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, size is not really a good reason to erase important information that actually does belong on the page.--Tosiaki 01:42, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, fair, I'm not against the sections themselves, it's just they look awkward there. But you do bring up a point scattering this all over the page would be tragic. So, we need a different approach, if this is going to be part A to Part B, then let's rewrite the article so we can have them in the Backstory nice and proper for such a change to be made. If you are worried about accomplishing this yourself, don't be as I am willing to lend a hand for this cause.

The power levels, again, I agree, but to a extent. I am all for the first 24 words (which is the sentence "As a human Marisa's true strength is such that she is able to use the highest class of magic power and things like that") but after that, it begins to go dangerously into speculation. For your vagueness argument, yes it can be extrapolated upon, but not within that section (Take that into the Contemplations). Yes, it can be reasonably inferred that she could take on baddies like Yuyuko and Remilia,but the way it's stated bothers me very much and I listed my reason above. Lastly, the "strength" is irrelevant, using my past example, Cirno has an equal chance of taking on Shikieiki and winning, so this becomes void. (Check out PoFV, you'll begin to see what I meant by ZUN's genius of not saying who did what,when, etc if at all.)

For your size counterpoint, I meant to say that we can rewrite this while keeping the important stuff and still be able to trim this down. Some pieces I still strongly feel should be in different sections.

I ask again to please hold on until we sort this out @ Final Standardization (I posted and will keep posting), otherwise we'll have gridlock and that's no good ♥★♦ 03:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I am not exactly sure how many times this needs to be stated, but none of the stuff in the PC-98 Marisa and PC-98 Seihou sections belong to "backstory." All of it is firmly things within "concept."
I am not sure what you mean by "it can be reasonably inferred." It is not a just "reasonable inference." The fact that one is able to complete the final stage with Marisa on any of the games is simple verification directly from the original work.
Furthermore, strength is a relevant part of a character's concept. Even within spellcard rules, there exists a concept as "strength." As noted in the Cirno page, even when she defeated Aya and Yuuka, the opponent was unhurt and she ran away from Yuuka after winning.
Now thinking about this, perhaps the section should indeed be renamed back to "strength" rather than "powerfulness." I am not sure why you might think strength would be talking about Yuugi, but when Cirno says "I'm the strongest," I am pretty sure everyone knows what "strength" here means.--Tosiaki 03:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Nazeo. Sure it may not fit under backstory, but it should not be where it is now (as we know they the same character) and that spell cards come into all this as I also agree that most of the stuff under Strenth is aiming at speculation. Also, it seems I need to add this to my sandbox... Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 15:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps if you want to say that there is speculation in "strength," you should point out what exactly is speculating. For example, Nazeo specifically said paragraphs three and four were speculating. However, the third paragraph only concerned a quote from official material, and the fourth paragraph is only an overview of what happened (or was able to happen) in the official work. I am not sure how that is "speculation."
Also, although they have the same "identity," they are not really the same character. That is why the PC-98 Marisa and Seihou Marisa are introduced separately - because they are separate in all aspects of character and concept. Therefore, it should probably stay as is.--Tosiaki 16:44, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Do note that although the PC-98 versions of the characters are "same" in some sense, that in actuality in all aspects of concept they are separate - that is why it is all explained in a separate section.--Tosiaki 17:05, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Therefore, I do have to say: it would not be a good idea to take apart the PC-98 and Seihou Marisa sections. As they are separate concepts, they should not be mixed in with other things throughout the page.--Tosiaki 17:30, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

If it really does not go good on the page, then perhaps one should consider creating separate pages for the PC-98 versions of the characters. Though they are the same character, they are different in all aspects from story to personality and therefore are practically different characters. It would definitely not be a good idea to mix in PC-98 information in with the rest of the article, so perhaps it could simply be moved to its own article, and a note can be given on the page that it is the same character - but a different version of the character.--Tosiaki 19:00, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

In fact, perhaps creating separate pages for the PC-98 version might just be the best idea if one really wants to move this outside of the page itself. There are many instances outside of Touhou where characters in one universe have been re-used in another universe with no connection in story to their previous, and with various changes in personality and appearance (as is the case here). Though they have been noted to be the "same" in some sense, they are still practically treated as different characters, and are mentioned completely separately from each other. That could be applied here as well - if a "PC-98 Marisa" does not belong in concept, perhaps it would be much better in its own article.--Tosiaki 19:11, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

And do note, that this approach of creating separate articles is actually what the entire Japanese world has been doing for the longest time (I did not quite know why they were doing it until I read the three comments from ZUN).--Tosiaki 19:21, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I'll start with the Yuugi thing and work my way down from there. I was using strength as an example because strength is an innate characteristic of the Oni and should be noted as "Strength". So, now that's clarified, I'll move on.
It's my turn to reiterate that PC-98 & Seihou SHOULD be rewritten so it fits better in Backstory.
I say this because as Ibaraki Ibuki (and was my position)stated the backstory is "to explain the parts of the story that were not mentioned in the source material in great detail" and what better way to do this with the PC-98 & Seihou sections.
You are right, as there are NOW it wouldn't make sense; but rewriting this would fix this.
Oh, and we are not going to have separate pages for PC-98 and Seihou as they are the same person and is redundant.
This also confuses the User because two character pages suggests that they are two different people.
If the separate page says, "PC-98 Alice is the same character as the windows Alice" somewhere near the beginning, I think that it should be fine.--Tosiaki 02:32, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
There have been instances where PC-98 has had an impact on Windows era. For example, when Yuuka comes back (PoFV) she says "Ah, you're still alive? You've grown up quite a bit." which this connection has PC-98 roots. Or when Alice says "Long time no see." when she sees Reimu.
You no longer get to say that they are different people with my evidence.
That is a too over-confident. Whether those are really connected to PC-98 are debatable.--Tosiaki 02:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
True, I may have been a little, but continue reading to see my other reasons why not.

♥★♦ 03:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Your "Well, Japan does it argument" holds no water, because then I get to say "We are the English Wiki, so we get to treat them as the same character."
To treat them as the same character makes no sense, as they are different. Yes, they are the "same" character in a sense, but even ZUN said, "with all one's heart a different character." As they have different personalities, appearances, and stories, they are effectively different characters, even if they are "somehow" the same.--Tosiaki 02:07, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I know what are trying to say and I will attempt to prove this by example.
I have been cryogentically frozen and appear in the future. Nothing else has changed except I don't mention much about the past and pretty much live in the future as if I was always there.
Sigh... But the main reason why the Main Chars do not get a Pc-98 page is because they reappear in Windows.
(This is why the Char Box's Picture is changed)
You see, they are continually evolving, changing and they do refer to their past experiences as well.
If the Probability Space Hypervessel (contains Yumemi Okazaki & Chiyuri Kitashirakawa came back in Windows, we simply give the pages a makeover; we don't make a new character page named "Windows Yumemi" & "Windows Chiyuri".
That is my strongest argument for this.
Perhaps you should pay more attention to ZUN's statements on the Gensou Bulletin Board that are translated on the PC-98 page. He said it himself that they are not canon.--Tosiaki 03:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

♥★♦ 03:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

"Well, Japan does it argument" holds no water - I would say otherwise. It is true that they are not 100% right all the time, but they should be looked to as a rough guide (at least for things for which we do not suspect they borrowed from this wiki), since they have more experience with this than we do.--Tosiaki 02:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Aw, but see, I want to be (and I'm sure the others as well) want to be as independent from other wikis as much as possible.
I'm sure they have great insight, but let's have our own "style"
We can have our own "style," but when it comes to statements that are either true or false, such as connections to PC-98, I do not think there is a good reason to say they are wrong, especially when the sources proving them are given.--Tosiaki 03:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Now time for your concept of "strength" You state that the opponent was unhurt.
Why should they?
That is a great leap to suggest that Danmaku inflicts pain (as I stated before).
There is no way of knowing (yet) or evidence that states Danmaku hurts people.
I never suggested that danmaku physically injures people. However, people do become tired or exhausted afterwards, and their graphics do change to "sad expressions" and things like that. Perhaps "hurt" might not have been the best word, but in any case, it is not nothing.--Tosiaki 02:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
True, that much can be confirmed.
But with all of these I approach it on how would a User interpret it.
(Trust me, I know what you are trying to do, I'm giving you hard time because I must represent the User perspective)
In any case, that is no excuse for removing information that actually pertains to a character's concept. Rather, it would mean that it should simply be worded differently.--Tosiaki 03:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Also, how do we know Cirno didn't run from Yuuka because she might squash her outside of the spellcard rules, or she is unpleasantness, or she has bad breath?
You see?
Speculation drives further and further from the facts and as a wiki we must absolutely avoid doing this.
It is not speculation. It said it in the PoFV script.--Tosiaki 02:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Hahahaha, yes I was attempting more of a joke with the bad breath one. I'm just saying, the page leaves much to the imagination and we need to be very specific on the wiki to avoid said imagination.
(As in previous comment) that just means that it needs to be re-worded as such.--Tosiaki 03:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Now look, I'm not saying the concept of strength isn't there; I'm saying that the current way it's explained is horrendous.
Do NOT rename back to strength, as I said before, let's hold on and begin addressing things in the Standardized Pages
Oh, and here is my favorite part, you ask which parts speculating, here I point everything out.

3.In the attached text file for Imperishable Night, it said "Since the player characters are of the Last Boss class (But Reimu and the gang are stronger than that last boss class) the enemies' abilities are quite strong from the start. I think." This statement, "stronger than that last boss class", thus has a very high possibility of including Marisa as well. However, it is unclear whether or not this statement is limited to just danmaku fights or if it also includes the case if they truly fought to try to defeat each other.

S: "In the attached text file for Imperishable Night, it said "Since the player characters are of the Last Boss class (But Reimu and the gang are stronger than that last boss class) the enemies' abilities are quite strong from the start"

N: Ok, I'm ok with that- 
S:"This statement, "stronger than that last boss class", thus has a very high possibility of including Marisa as well. However, it is unclear whether or not this statement is limited to just danmaku fights or if it also includes the case if they truly fought to try to defeat each other." 
N: Now why did you have to say that? Particularity the "it is unclear part"? Why throw out there if we aren't sure ourselves? I feel this section befuddles the readers unnecessarily, especially with playing the game in which they defeat them '''WITH DANMAKU'''
:There is a difference between pure speculation and making reasonable deductions interpretations. The original statement said, {{lang|ja|霊夢達}}. It is therefore a reasonable interpretation '''based on language''' that it means Marisa as well. The character {{lang|ja|達}} is a pluralizing suffix. Explaining the meaning of such words as {{lang|ja|霊夢達}} is not speculation - it is simply explaining language.--~~~~

4. If one looks at what has officially been her confrontations in the past, although one would notice that in Marisa's scenarios in various games, she was able to defeat such last bosses as Remilia Scarlet and Yuyuko Saigyouji, there were also scenarios in Phantasmagoria of Flower View where she was defeated when she went up against Cirno and Mystia Lorelei and others. In the story of Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, she defeated many youkai and human opponents, but on the other hand, within the image of being a "main character" she and Reimu did not overwhelmingly defeat those other youkai and humans. Furthermore, at the very end, the story ends with her being defeated along with Reimu by Tenshi Hinanawi giving forth her true effort.  

S: "If one looks at what has officially been her confrontations in the past, although one would notice that in Marisa's scenarios in various games, she was able to defeat such last bosses as Remilia Scarlet and Yuyuko Saigyouji, there were also scenarios in Phantasmagoria of Flower View where she was defeated when she went up against Cirno and Mystia Lorelei and others."

N: Well, as stated before, there is no way to say Marisa's story actually happened, just everything got solved in the end (ZUN's genius, remember?) So not speculation per se, but a statement that is politically incorrect.
::I am not sure what you mean by "politically incorrect," but it has now been changed not even to imply that Marisa's story happened. Perhaps you missed the words, "in Marisa's scenarios," pointing out that these happened in Marisa's scenarios.--~~~~

S:In the story of Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, she defeated many youkai and human opponents, but on the other hand, within the image of being a "main character" she and Reimu did not overwhelmingly defeat those other youkai and humans

N: Again, same thing, did she really(She may, she may have not). I can understand the point being made with the state of being a main character, but still, with the previous statements is null.
::On the other hand, Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, as opposed to the shooting games has a certain storyline that actually goes in order. Therefore, it actually certainly happened in any storyline.--~~~~

Oh, and I assume the above quotes are true in this assessment, since I can't find the none of the blasted quotes and their sources.
Here, it states the relevant quote (of course, the translated version of this is currently on the page now): 霊夢達はそのラス/ボスクラスより強いのだが (the slash is a line break). It's obvious that 霊夢達 would include Marisa in this statement.--Tosiaki 02:49, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
A lot of this reads and feels like glorified trivia, and the most I can do with power assessments is the contemplation page.
Surely what the official work says about their power is something that belongs in concept. I am not exactly sure why something should go into contemplations if it is official.--Tosiaki 02:09, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, no I'm not denouncing the importance of Official works (Yukari says Shikieiki is tougher than herself, Reimu and Yuyuko combined etc) I guess my point here is there is no easy way to state this without tailspinning especially if other character's "power levels" are mostly unknown. So a page dedicated to this may be in order (I push Contemplation so hard because the unsure stuff allows for it being stated in that page, but something like that can work as well.)

♥★♦ 03:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

However, certain things about strength are not unknown, and are actually made clear officially. I think that those things are a part of a character's concept.--Tosiaki 03:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I'll tell you what doesn't fix this; Using the Concept Box as a junk yard with what's mainly trivia.
If you think it is a junk yard, you should point out specifically what you mean.--Tosiaki 02:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Okey dokey then, let me explain first in the big picture kind of sense.
The stuff on the page when I first open it, should be able to navigate it (it being the Contents Box) without scrolling down too much.
This is bad.
With the page as it's now, it is even bigger than the Character Box!
You can't even see the Concept Stuff without scrolling anymore, which is detrimental to the page being easily accessible.
If that is so, then perhaps the character summary above the contents box should be shortened. As stated earlier, perhaps the "general outline" section would be a good idea to shorten the text above.--Tosiaki 03:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Why do I say Junk Yard?
Now I use this as part of the small stuff.
We have Strength (Which what you are trying to state as "Fighting Ability" unless I'm wrong, plz correct me) which I feel should have a page to it's self, and it doesn't have to be Contemplations, but I feel it shouldn't be there.
Strengh is a definitely a part of concept. In Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, each character was even given a "threat level," and words like 強い and 強さ (translation: strong, strength) a repeatedly used.--Tosiaki 03:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I mean, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a large portion of Perfect Memento in Strict Sense devoted to how strong each one is?--Tosiaki 03:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Then we move on to Possessions and then to Pc-98 and Seihou. Umm... kinda odd transition...
Then the last thing is her family which I still feel should be in the backstory, even though she almost never mentions this in her dialogues in the game, but remember, Touhou is in literature as well, and we incorporate both.
The page itself is largely game based, so stating the Literature material (or any medium for the matter) will help alleviate confusion.
It's not all bad though(I feel Possessions, Occupation and the Other Abilities *after disambiguated* were wonderful additions to the wiki), those 4 (Strength, PC-98 Marisa & Seihou Marisa, and Actual family) are just my biggest concerns and is why I bash on them so much
As for PC-98 Marisa, and Seihou Marisa, it is the standard. Even the Japanese wikipedia, which strictly writes about canon, does this.--Tosiaki 03:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

♥★♦ 03:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


I seriously mean this; it detracts from the wiki's attractiveness and it loses navigation when it's cluttered with a whole bunch of tags.
This stuff needs a revamp and as much as I don't want to, I'm stopping Char Page edits until we all can get a agreement on the Character Pages.

♥★♦ 01:40, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

All of my counter-arguments are within your comments - I hope that that isn't inconvenient. In any case, refer to my counter-arguments that I have inserted to each part.--Tosiaki 02:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

No no, that's fine. (Although this is going to be fun to refer to now, lol, just look how this will be navigated, lol)

♥★♦ 03:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Additional statement about PC-98 Marisa and Seihou Marisa: perhaps one could say "it is not in the spirit of Touhou," but that is absolutely not true. They have actually been separate for the longest time - the English world just didn't know about it. Even the Japanese wikipedia, which is very strictly about canon material, does this.--Tosiaki 03:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Clarification about あなたが、コンティニュー出来ないのさ![edit]

Since this page cites the fact that Flandre said あなたが、コンティニュー出来ないのさ! to Marisa, I would like to clear up what it means here. It has been suggested that this breaks the fourth wall, and in fact, it definitely does. If one looks at their previous statements, Flandre said "one coin," to which Marisa replied, "you can't buy a life with that." The fact that Flandre says this "Continue" (コンティニュー next makes it pretty clear what this "Continue" means.--Tosiaki 23:25, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Hard-working ethic[edit]

My main problem for removal was that it did not fit in that particular section - it has nothing to do wither her ability to use magic. Or at least I didn't think at the time when I took it out. If you want to include hard-work ethic as a reason as to why she's successful at using magic, it needs to be in its own paragraph. - Kiefmaster99 04:39, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Since she is a magician as an occupation, and all of this hard work is related to her magical experiments and her usage of magic, the fact that she is hard working is very much related to her usage of magic, is it not? At least that is how I am thinking currently. Anyways, I guess it would be better as its own paragraph.--05:08, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
The problem with that paragraph is that it discusses more about herself being possibly found out than about actual rigor. This is someting I would be inclined to put in Trivia rather than in that section. - Kiefmaster99 05:33, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
I guess that it actually talks more about how Marisa performs her honest work in magic "unseen" even though it was still found out by others - but still, the way that Marisa performs her magic experiments (i. e. unseen by others) - doesn't that relate directly to her magic? At least it seems so as of now.--Tosiaki 05:47, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Well it's more that the mushroom collecting itself and preparation is directly tied with her ability to use magic. She uses mushrooms as ammo. - Kiefmaster99 06:01, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
The mushrooms are indeed items that she uses, but as stated in the "ability" section of her entry in Perfect Memento, it is only after the result of "magical experimentation" that she gets the finished product. In fact, the "ability" section of her entry in Perfect Memento is mostly about her magical experimentation.--Tosiaki 06:12, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Cut from General Outline[edit]

I have cut the following from the general outline, as I don't think they should be in the lead. They would however be more appropriate for other sections.

According to Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, it is strange for a human to have mastery of this level of magic, and it's possible that she may become a magician as a species.[1] In Imperishable Night, she showed interest in immortality and eternal youth, but was unclear whether she aspired to become a magician by species.
  1. Perfect Memento in Strict Sense - Marisa Kirisame
  2. Relation to martial arts, unneeded.
    From the edit summary - "Counterpoints: Not always narrow (MoF; UFO); focus on Marisa not Reimu. General Outline is not the place to be explaining intricate details about the character."

    - Kiefmaster99 05:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

    I guess that it might not belong there - I shall look at where else to put this.
    The thing about martial arts is stating that her speed and power is not physical. It does seem somewhat of a basic fact that magicians "are strong, but physically weak," although I guess it was somewhat worded badly.
    I guess that the last point might have been too specific, but it did have a more general idea that Marisa has been given favorable treatment despite being a supporting character.--Tosiaki 05:37, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    Marisa is as much as a protagonist as Reimu, so it's not surprising that both are given equal treatment. That being said, Reimu is used more in scoring runs...
    Now, regarding the "Strength" section. I am having a bit of a hard time trying to follow and reword this. As well, I interpret
    "Even when Reimu and the gang are defeated they challenge again however many times they want, but on the youkai side they do not challenge again after being defeated, and are not attached to the results of winning or losing..., to say it clearly it is assuredly an inconsequential thing^^;"
    as ZUN trying to handwave game mechanics and break the fourth wall. This is pretty much what happens when people play the Touhou games - they play as the protag. If the player gets "defeated, (he) challenges again however many times (he) wants". Youkai/computer part is also true. - Kiefmaster99 05:59, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    Well, the fourth wall is broken in Touhou Project several times, not just in this instance. I think that it means that after losing and experiencing the bad endings, they challenge again until they get the good ending. As a player would, of course.--Tosiaki 06:05, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    For that reason though, I can't really use it to argue powerlevels. - Kiefmaster99 06:29, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    Well, that part is there to qualify the fact that she was able to resolve incidents - although she has enough power to be able to defeat last bosses and resolve incidents, this part is to explain that it might have taken several tries.--Tosiaki 06:36, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    I mean, IMO, it's too much handwaving by ZUN to be properly applied in canon, which is why I'm hesitant to use that quote. For example, it is potentially incompatible with UFO's bad endings.- Kiefmaster99 06:46, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    It must be noted, though, that the place where that quote comes from (the former Gensou Bulletin Board) are pretty much all serious in the answers that ZUN gives to questions, spelling out a number of important things, which is why it is taken to be authoritative. So no matter how handwavy it seems, I think it should be taken to mean what it is.--Tosiaki 06:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    I still believe that, despite how serious it may seem, it can be taken out of context. Notwithstanding that, the nature of danmaku battles themselves means that anybody has a chance to win, and could apply to any character really.
    Also, I still have a problem with this sentence:
    However, in various games, she had unusually high attack power and had been given favorable treatment compared to others, meaning that ZUN probably still likes her as well, despite being a supporting character.
    ZUN, by necessity, has to balance his protagonists for his shooting games. Having high attack power is meaningless. I can turn around and counterargue that "Reimu had an unusually small hitbox and has been given favourable treatment compared to the others". Also, since when did being a supporting character mean that ZUN doesn't like her? Heck, he made an entire book dedicated to her. And Aya. - Kiefmaster99 07:03, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    Well, without the specific examples, (and without the quote saying that she has an existence a human of a level close to us), it might be a little more unclear, but it was referring specifically to the unusual instances of what the fans call "Marisu-Cannon" in Imperishable Night (See here) and also to laser Marisa's unusual attack power in Mountain of Faith, as well as the differences of her treatment compared to others in Subterranean Animism (that it is quite noticeable).
    Reimu obviously already has favorable treatment - she is the main character and has been said by ZUN to be the strongest in Gensokyo (and whether this is a joke or not, there is probably a reason for it). But to say that Marisa is a "sub-character" or "supporting/minor character" (which is what 脇役 means) does have strong implications that she might not be favored, which is why that last part is there - to say that she is indeed favored.
    In any case, since you asked about it, it seems quite unclear, so perhaps better wording is needed there.--Tosiaki 07:22, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    Additionally, I do think there is a merit to re-introducing the quote from ZUN so that it is in blockquote format rather than a footnote. It does seem to be an important quote, although it might not be translated the best way - but to say it in a quote, rather than to merely paraphrase it would reveal fully that it is what ZUN's attitude towards her is, and it is the most important quote from ZUN about her. It must be noted that the Japanese wikipedia on Marisa quotes it at the very beginning of the first section of her page - see here. The Japanese Wikipedia especially focuses on talking only about what is important, so if it is included in this way, I think that it really shouldn't just be a footnote. Tentatively, I shall re-add the quote as it was previously, although I do realize that perhaps the translation should be made better.--Tosiaki 07:35, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    As I mentioned before, in each game, each character has to be roughly even-powered out of necessity. This is a basic tenet of game design. You cannot have a game with one character being absurdly more powerful than the other (that being said, ZUN isn't perfect). You don't let any possible bias against one of your own characters affect how powerful she should be. Both Malice Cannon and Marisa B(orked) arose from game bugs. Having to mash SHIFT to trigger Malice Cannon (and Sticky Keys) is not a feature. Having to be unfocused b/w a certain number range is not a feature. They were unintended. If you want to stipulate that Marisa is not just a supporting character, using games (i.p. mechanics) as a source is not the way to go. Using SaBND, OSP, GoM, etc. would be far more convincing.
    And even as a sub character, that doesn't stop her inclusion in every game with Reimu in it. Every other character may as well be sub-sub-characters too.
    I strongly recommend against the use of block quotes for short quotes, just to emphasize a point. They are unsightly, and detract from the rest of the article. Wikipedia's guidelines reserve them for "more than about 40 words or a few hundred characters, or consisting of more than one paragraph, regardless of length". If it's that important, a direct quote w/ ref is sufficient. If the quote is that important, perhaps a section can be devoted to it. - Kiefmaster99 07:57, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    I guess that what you say is true - however, as for her favorable treatment in Subterranean Animism, it seems to be something else, not arising from in-game mechanics. I shall look into that more. I shall also look into how to better incorporate the quote into the section rather than use a blockquote.--Tosiaki 08:01, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    I have cut the following from trivia, for various reasons. They are either redundant or better put in an existing section.
    • She is known for "copying" attacks from enemies she has fought, namely Non-Directional Laser from Patchouli Knowledge and Master Spark from Yuuka Kazami. Additionally, the green projectiles that she fires as a playable character seem to have been lifted from Reimu (see Story of Eastern Wonderland) and the overall astronomy theme to her magic seems to have been learned from Mima (see Story of Eastern Wonderland when Marisa served Mima - Mima used Orreries Sun during the last boss fight). Moreover, she used Alice's Artful Sacrifice as reference for her Shoot the Moon spell card.
    • Marisa has a hobby of collecting things, whether they already belong to someone or not. It is stated that she never throws away anything she collects, which results in her house being the messiest in Gensokyo. However, she seems to collect items without knowing their true value; Rinnosuke once finds an ancient sword, namely the famous Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi in a pile of scrap metal she owns.
    [referring to Kirisame Magic Shop] (which does anything, from gambling predictions to youkai extermination to, according to Alice, plumbing)
    [referring to Hakkero] a mini furnace in the shape of an octagonal block with the eight trigrams printed in a circle on its front; (it fits easily in the hand); Despite being a western style magician and fitting the classic image of a witch, Marisa's most precious item is an eastern style Hakkero. Despite its small size, it is a potent source of magical energy and has the firepower to burn down a mountain. Marisa usually uses it like a normal furnace and treats it with good care. It is the only treasure Marisa collected that is used and taken care of on a regular basis. Marisa is frequently depicted using the Hakkero to power her Master Spark. The original Hakkero was an item in the Chinese classic "Journey to the West", where it was used by gods to create spiritual medicine.
    • Marisa is the Extra boss of Fairy Wars. After Cirno defeats the other fairies, Marisa comes by and to her bewilderment is attacked by the fired-up ice fairy. Upon defeat, Cirno crows about her victory and flies off, but Marisa reveals she was holding back, although she notes not to underestimate fairies in the future.
    - Kiefmaster99 18:30, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

    In case it may be questionable that I re-added the first thing cut from general outline into "abilities," it is because it was mentioned in Perfect Memento precisely in Marisa's "Ability" section. In fact, it probably does have more to do with Marisa's ability more than anything else.--Tosiaki 03:18, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

    I don't mind if the info gets added/moved, so long as redundancy is avoided, language is concise, and it fits okay in the section. For instance, your new info (Marisa's future aspirations) made a trivia mention redundant.
    • There have been several hints that Marisa might become a youkai magician in the future; Akyuu comments on the possibility in her Perfect Memento article, and in Undefined Fantastic Object, she becomes evasive when Minamitsu Murasa points out that she's human after Marisa expresses interest going to Makai "as a magician" (though this could be explained by Marisa having tried to claim she was already a youkai).
    - Kiefmaster99 03:42, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

    Game Appearance Tally[edit]

    Are we counting endings for the purposes of counting number of appearances in games? If so, FW does feature Reimu in an ending. - Kiefmaster99 18:00, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

    Appearances in endings may or may not be counted - so there are effectively three ways of counting:
    1. Appearances in the middle of the game
    2. Appearances in the middle of the game + ending
    3. Appearances in the middle of the game + ending + attached text files
    I think that #1 way of counting is primary but #2 or #3 way of counting can additionally be noted if it is relevant to the context.--Tosiaki 23:11, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

    "Along with Yumemi Okazaki, Soga no Tojiko and Remilia, Marisa is one of the four Touhou characters to officially curse in-game." ?[edit]

    Maybe it's just I don't have the knowledge in English but I'm asking anyway. What does "curse" in this sentence mean? I've looked up the dictionary (TheFreeDictionary) but I can't find a meaning that matches the context here.--Doncot (talk) 05:57, 10 October 2012 (EDT)

    Definition 4. A swearword. As far as I've heard, in some English translations, a colorful swear was chosen where it was believed to match the context. For instance, in Imperishable Night, Marisa once said "bitch." Of course, this is misleading, and as far as I know, no one in Touhou actually swears. Marisa's dialogue on the wiki has since been changed, but the misconception still exists.
    But if it's true that no character actually swears, then curses or mentions of them doing so (like this trivia) should be removed. UTW 06:15, 10 October 2012 (EDT)
    Well the concept of "swearing" in Japanese is very different from that in English (we actually don't have "swear words" in Japanese. We do have "vulgar", "dirty", "dishonorable" and "socially unacceptable" words, but I think normal English speakers will have different impressions from these to "swear words"), and that description is short-mindedly only standing on the viewpoint of the "translated English", so yes I believe it should be removed.--Doncot (talk) 07:02, 10 October 2012 (EDT)

    Redundancy in the Page[edit]

    There are some things mentioned more than once on this page. Examples:

    • Marisa's magic is the result of her hard work, but she hides that from other people.
    • Marisa's broom has shown signs of life (sprouting leaves) due to exposure to magic.
    • Her magic abilities are unusually powerful for a human.

    I am not sure how much redundancy is allowable due to the relevancy of the information to different sections, but I do think there is too much repetition across this article.

    - Karob (talk) 18:05, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

    ULiL profile retranslation[edit]

    I've retranslated her ULiL profile as that was highly necessary. Took some liberties; 火力こそパワー -> "There's power in firepower", 「実際にあった学校の恐怖」-> “The Nonfiction School Horrors”. Input would be appreciated. --Huppa (talk) 14:47, 12 July 2016 (UTC)