Talk:Perfect Cherry Blossom

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Old discussion[edit]

Just realized that adding titles the way we've been doing it will somewhat botch the table of contents on top of looking ugly if a ToC is added. Will stop here. Any suggestions or fixes greatly appreciated. --Pent


The table of contents automatically appears if there are 4 or more "titles" in the article.

However, the table of contents can be explicitly turned off by using the command __NOTOC__ anywhere in the article.

Alternatively, the table of contents can be forced to appear at a specific place by placing __TOC__ at the place you want it to appear, even if there are less than 4 titles.

Also, you can use the larger "title" fonts without them counting as "titles" by replacing == Header 2 == with <h2> Header 2 </h2> , and so on.

So, you don't have to make changes because you're worried about how the table of contents will look. The article itself is more important; let's all focus on making those things look good and we'll be on our way to an excellent database.

--Leviathean 14:23, 29 Apr 2005 (PDT)


Could anyone more fluent in Japanese than me take a look at http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/西行 ? Besides the name being part of "Saigyouji", two of the poems at the bottom appear in PCB end-stages, so I think it's relevant. -7HS


仏には桜の花をたてまつれ我が後の世を人とぶらはば
In modern speech:もし私の後世(こうせい)を弔(とむら)ってくれる人がいるなら、仏前(ぶつぜん)には桜の花を献(けん)じてください。

願はくは花の下にて春死なんそのきさらぎの望月のころ
In modern speech:(もし死ぬのであれば、)願わくば、春、2月の満月の頃に(桜の)花の下で死にたいものだ。

Both of the poems are about cherry blossoms and his own death. Saigyo loved cherry blossoms very much. He actually made 230 poems about cherry blossoms! --Robert

Automated transfer of Problem Report #18374[edit]

The following message was left by MegaKirb17 via PR #18374 on 2009-02-08 01:37:31 UTC

Hey My Game wont play any music can you help?

You might want to check if you have the file thbgm.dat in your Perfect Cherry Blossom folder. If this file is not present, you will not be able to hear any wav sound, only MIDI. If the file is not present it can be found on the PCB CD. TOUHOU-Tyle 15:05, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Automated transfer of Problem Report #18387[edit]

The following message was left by MegaKirb17 via PR #18387 on 2009-02-08 09:17:23 UTC

Do i have to do something to get the BGM to work in the game? cause its not working

BGM[edit]

I don't really know where to direct this, but there are 2 versions of the BGM in Perfect Cherry Blossom.

Just, for instance, listen to this video I made: thumb|300px|left If it sounds just like in your game, please tell me where you bought your version.

if it DOESN'T sound like in your game, then here is the problem, the BGM extracted with the thbgmextractor sounds difference from ingame, and in some games versions, the extracted version and the ingame one matches.

Personally I don't like the extracted versions, I like more the [see video] like type of BGM. Wertoret 21:54, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

EDIT: oh god I was sure freaking out! I just had to change Sound to Midi instead of Wav to have my preferred music :P

Just a note for all of you Wertoret 22:06, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

adoption[edit]

I'm adopting this page hauuuu~

--Sefam 17:07, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Need help in gettig a game to play[edit]

Okay, so I'm trying to play PCB and when I start up th07e.exe it goes to the loading screen then it justs exits out and the game quits. A window pops up if I try and immediately try and restart it with the title bar saying log on it and a bunch of random symbols which I assume is untranslated japanses text. I'm willing to post a pciture of this if needed. The preceding comment was written by Shinuto

Ah, sounds like you need to set your computer in Japanese Locale. To do so, go to Control Panel > Clock, Language, and Region > Regional and Language Options then go to the tab that says "Administrative" and select Japanese for Non-Unicode Programs (your comp will restart).

Or you can always get Microsoft Applocale so you don't have to go through that.

Also, please sign your posts by placing "~~~~" after your comment Let me know if this works. ♥★♦ 03:02, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok so...will doing that change my comp's entire text to japanese though? I just wanna make sure I don't get ito a situation that will be irritable to fix.Shinuto 04:21, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, now I've downloaded Applocale...what do I do with it?Shinuto 04:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Nope, that will not have your text turn into Japanese lol, it's just for non-unicode programs to play.
If you are going the applocale route, open it, pick browse and find PCB, select the option that says "日本語 " and use that to run it.
If that didn't work, then it is a patch problem, and I recommend getting the latest patch.
Lemme know how this goes.

♥★♦ 00:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Ghastly[edit]

So how is ghastly a more "official" translation of 妖々? It just makes it sound like a bad nightmare, if you ask me. Not what the Japanese title is about at all. Flan27 (talk) 23:28, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

  • I sincerely do not know; I'm guessing it's based on what the cover of the game says... but we all know Japanese can't Engrish...--Camilo113 (talk) 23:47, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be "ghastry" dream, then? ^^; But anyways, that's not meant to be the title anyways, just some decoration text. Honestly, the title could go several ways, things like "ghostly" or "mystical" are the best in my opinion. But anyways, if no one has any argument I'll probably just change it back to ghostly. Flan27 (talk) 23:53, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

this is all really silly. "ghostly" and "ghastly" and "mystical" and "charming" all mean about the same thing, especially in the context of 妖々. there is absolutely no reason why we should not treat "eastern ghastry dream" as an official translation, when it's one character (engrish does not count, it's more complicated than that) off and when you have no problem doing the same for things like fairy wars.
so, yes, "fairy wars" and overriding "faily wars" is fine, but "ghastly dream" and overriding "ghastry dream" is not? really?
also guys when you revert an edit and start a discussion please don't leave the edit summary blank. Despatche (talk) 04:35, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
I still don't see how Ghastly is more official than Ghostly. The only Ghastly we can see is the one in the cover of Perfect Cherry Blossom but that doesn't means is the "official" translation of the "Touhou XXX" Title; there's also other games where you can see something written in the cover, like in the Imperishable Night one, it says: Shooting Game in Dark Side of Paradise; which is comparable to the one written in the PCB cover: Shooting Game of Ghastry Dream; but it doesn't means 東方永夜抄 (Touhou Eiyashou) translation is Eastern Dark Side of Paradise.

Well, I'm not a japanese speaker nor reader but there are people who do, like User:Flan27 and it seems he knows what he's doing...--Camilo113 (talk) 15:33, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

yeah, it does, because one is an actual translation and the other is a completely different phrase. there is a HUGE difference between completely different words and a phrase that is ONE character off what we have now. and let me point out again that "ghastly dream" (written in katakana) is also one of yuyuko's attacks in imperishable night at the very least, similar to how the phrases "imperishable night" and "mountain of faith" appear at all, ever, for any reason.
even with the idea that it's official aside, there's no reason to outright reject such a change when it's so similar and when it's dangerously close to being so "official". this is nothing more than rejecting "change" for the sake of doing so, without any regard to logic or rationale. Despatche (talk) 17:08, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Inconsistencies with 妖々[edit]

I'm noticing the way 妖々 has been inconsistently translated throughout the wiki. First we have the title, 東方妖々夢 ~ Perfect Cherry Blossom, translated as Eastern Ghostly Dream ~ Perfect Cherry Blossom. Then we move onto the title theme, 妖々夢 ~ Snow or Cherry Petal translated as Eastern Mystical Dream ~ Snow or Cherry Petal. As well as the stage 5 theme, 東方妖々夢 ~ Ancient Temple translated as Eastern Mystical Dream ~ Ancient Temple. Finally we have the two Extra themes, 妖々跋扈 translated as Youkai Domination. I'm honestly not seeing the point of these inconsistencies. I could see why it would be inconsistent in context, but I'm not seeing any context for why the title theme is "Ghostly", but stage 5 is "Mystical". I really, REALLY see no reason for 妖々跋扈 to be translated as "youkai domination". Yes, Yukari is a youkai (妖怪), 妖 is one of the kanji in youkai, but it's also one of the kanji in fairy (妖精), and they appear in the extra stages, so I'm not really seeing the point. I feel like these names should be more consistent.

I've looked up the words in the dictionary, and ghostly, ghastly, and mystical don't have that all similar meanings. They're related, but not very similar. Specifically between ghostly and mystical. Ghastly and mystical are closer from what I'm seeing, especially in the context of this game. Anyway, I feel like if the names are to be inconsistent, it should be between words that make more sense. The titles with 妖々夢 should all be the same. I suggest it be Eastern Ghastly/Mystical Dream for all of them. Ghastly because this game is very youkai-like, and is a game that introduces the "scene" of Gensokyo. A placed filled with all sorts of "ghastly" creatures. Or you could use the more neutral word, Mystical, which also evokes a sort of "attractiveness" to it. Which is something Gensokyo does have.

As for 妖々跋扈, I've seen it being translated as Charming Domination, which is a translation that I like. "Charming" and "Domination" are contrasting words, and 妖 which has a meaning that refers to something bewitching, mystical, and charming sounds good for a title to me. I would even say some for the other titles, though "Mystical" may be more fitting for the title theme. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SupremeExplosion (talkcontribs)

See discussion here: Talk:Perfect_Cherry_Blossom/Music#Translation_of_妖々跋扈. The conclusion is basically that, although it's used in many places on purpose, it means different things (and/or multiple things) depending on where it's used. I think it's impossible to have a consistent use in english that still keeps meaning, as it's entirely wordplay that's already difficult to translate. --Drake Irving (talk) 11:56, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

妖々 2.0[edit]

Issues

I hate to reopen old discussions (especially legendarily debated topics like this one) but this must be done. The conclusion to the previous argument was that 妖々 means many things in different contexts (within PCB). That, however, has fallen apart in recent months. Every instance of 妖々 except for in the Phantasm and Extra stages has been changed to "mystical". The two unchanged stages say "youkai" instead. The reason people agreed (did they?) on this was because the omake.txt mentioned youkai. This is a stretch. If ZUN wanted the title to say "Youkai Domination" then he would have used 妖怪. But let's step back a bit for the bigger problem. We shouldn't use "mystical" for 妖々 at all. Am I saying it's a wrong translation? Not at all, it's a perfectly acceptable translation. What I'm saying is that it's not a right translation in the context of PCB. What does "Mystical Dream" even mean anyway? Nothing. That's an extremely generic name, especially since the games before and after this one have names that clearly connect to their plot (Scarlet Devil Land, Eternal Night Vignette). I propose we change the translation of 妖々 from "mystical" back to the older translation of "ghostly". I'm about to go on what may seem like a tangent so please bear with me.

The Main Motif, Aesthetic, and Plot in PCB

Now it's no secret that the overarching theme in PCB is death and the afterlife but people seem to overlook that totally when dealing with this translation. As was previously discussed, "mystic" was chosen overall because it supposedly encompassed both youkai and ghosts. But hear me out. PCB is not about youkai. It's primarily about spirits - both ghosts and phantoms - and the world in which they reside in. The main plot involves the ghost princess of the Netherworld, Yuyuko, trying to revive a dead body under a cherry tree. This is where the title comes it. It is intrinsically tied to the Netherworld, because it's reffering to Yuyuko trying to wake up her spirit. That's why it's a "Ghostly Dream". But wait, there's more. ZUN himself makes this connection. Every single stage theme that has 妖々 in it's title takes place in the Netherworld. The entire plot of the extra stage (please refer to the extra stage backstory page) is that the barrier between the Netherworld and Gensokyo must be repaired. Ghosts and phantoms were leaking out into Gensokyo in order to experience the world of the living, causing havoc for denizens of the living world. That's why the title of the extra and phantasm stages is 妖々跋扈 ([妖々 title] ghostly + 跳梁跋扈 rampage, domination). Both Ran and Yukari's music themes deal with death, as explained by the omake.txt of the game. ZUN even puts the words "Ghastry Dream" on the cover of the game (though this was rather unthoughtfully dismissed in past discussions). Even the thpatch staff chose to use "ghostly" over "mystical" in the main menu of PCB. In any case, it's certainly clear what ZUN was going for here. 妖々 refers to spirits, the Netherworld, and the general theme of death & the afterlife in PCB. "Ghostly" is the most appropriate translation here.

The Changes

Mystical Dream -> Ghostly Dream

Eastern Mystical Dream -> Eastern Ghostly Dream

Youkai Domination -> Spiritual Domination

Wait a minute, why "spiritual"? There's leeway here because the title only includes 妖々 and not 妖々夢, the full title. The discussion before claimed that it referred to youkai. Yet it doesn't say that. This is a handsome compromise. The characters that make up youkai essentially mean "mysterious apparition". Youkai are spirits. Not as in ghosts. As in apparitions. The unknown. Angels are described as good spirits and demons are described as bad spirits. Youkai can be classified as mysterious spirits. Furthermore, two of the three youkai featured in the extra+phantasm stages are shikigami. Shikigami are essentially spirits that allow themselves to be possessed by others spirits (whether it be gods or oni). Kitsune specifically are fox spirits. Spritual (relating to spirits) essentially means the same thing as ghostly (relating to ghosts) but with the added benefit that spirits encompass more than just the undead or spectral. Plus, although the kanji doesn't match up, Yukari's title in the game is "Mastermind Behind the Spiriting Away". The thematic connections are all there and they fit together rather nicely. Thus, "Spiritual Domination" is a more than adequate translation. It certainly beats the faulty "Youkai Domination" and awkward-sounding "Ghostly Domination".

So what about...

I know what you're thinking. What about the Prismrivers' theme? About Reimu's PoDD theme? Violet Detector spell cards? Mystical Maple? I'll answer those now. The Prismrivers' theme uses "ghostly" in its title. This is a correct translation, however it is an incorrect translation in the context of Touhou. Ghosts (亡霊) and phantoms (幽霊) are strictly separate in the Touhou universe. There was a recent discussion about this but it was forgotten about quietly, without proper discussion. Not that there needs to be any discussion in the first place. The Prismrivers are specifically poltergeists (幽霊) which are, in turn, a specific type of phantom. The Prismrivers' theme contains 幽霊 (phantom), not 亡霊 (ghost). I don't think this is a matter of interpretation at all. It's a canonical fact that phantoms and ghosts are seperate. Therefore, the theme should be renamed to "Phantom Band ~ Phantom Ensemble". Redundancy has been a feature of ZUN's titles since the PC-98 era. This is an unfortunate reality we must face when translating something that was originally half English and half Japanese to full English. As for Reimu's theme, Eastern Mystical Love Consultation, it can remain untouched. As I've said before, "mystical" is a perfectly fine translation of 妖 but just not in the context of PCB. And what about the Violet Detector spell cards? I'll have a crack at it:

Mystic Flower Sign -> Ghostly Flower Sign

Wind Mystic Sign -> Wind Ghost(ly) Sign

Mystic Wind Sign -> Ghostly Wind Sign

And how about Mystical Maple? The kanji are completely unrelated but in order to avoid over-usage of "mystical" I propose we use "Mystic Maple". It's sounds more beautiful on the tongue because both words have two syllables. It sounds symmetrical, if that makes sense. And it differentiates itself from "Eastern Mystical Love Consultation", which uses different kanji.

With that, this long tangent is over. A change should be made and I hope you agree. —Ennin (talk) 02:13, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Also, no one has ever brought this up before but ZUN's comment on PoFV's verision of "東方妖々夢 ~ Ancient Temple" says
Youmu Konpaku's theme.
It's not the Perfect Cherry Blossom version, but the arranged version recorded in Ghostly Field Club. It draws out the coldness of the land of the dead.
And the PCB omake.txt comment says
This is the song that most directly expresses the feeling of this game, hence this title.
Ancient Temple, according to ZUN, is supposed to invoke the feeling of the coldness of the land of the dead. And it was titled using the game's own title because it directly expresses the theme of the game. What's that theme? Death, the afterlife, and the Netherworld where there spirits of the dead reside. In other words: ghostly. This is nigh-definitive proof that 妖々 is meant to mean "ghostly". Not to mention that Ghostly Field Club (which mainly features arrangements from PCB) has a plot that revolves entirely around the Netherworld. ZUN practically handed this to us on a golden platter.
EDIT: Oh, come on now. Yuyuko literally has a spell card named 死符「ギャストリドリーム」(Death Sign "Ghastly Dream"), coinciding with the "Shooting Game of Ghastry Dream" on the cover of PCB. Ghostly and ghastly are synonymous; the etymology of "ghost" comes from the Old English "gast" (spirit, specter). Forget a gold platter, ZUN handed this to us on a platinum, no, a diamond platter.
Ennin (talk) 05:12, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Okay, so it's been a bit after the first post. I feel as if I explained the needed changes sufficiently and will be making them now. If, for some reason, there's any objections then please feel free to discuss them here.
Ennin (talk) 12:05, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
As User:Drake Irving point out in the previous discussion, it might means different terms so... - KyoriAsh (talk) 00:13, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I addressed that in my post. But the only two terms used in the translation of 妖々 are "Mystical" and "Youkai". But a lot of people in the Discord server (including me) feel that "Youkai Domination" is downright wrong. And I explain in my post above why "Mystical" is also inadequate.
Ennin (talk) 12:18, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
I agree that 'Youkai Domination' is inappropriate. However, it's important to work out what each part of the title is doing to come to a better interpretation. If we look at the three options, we get the following:
Youkai Domination: 妖々 (Youkai - noun) + 跋扈 (domination/running rampant, verb). So, the youkai are running rampant, or dominating the area.
Ghostly/Spiritual Domination: 妖々 (Ghostly - adjective) + 跋扈 (domination, noun). So, the state of domination is ghostly.
Ghostly/Spiritual Domination: 妖々 (Ghostly - adverb) + 跋扈 (domination, noun). So, domination is happening in a ghostly or spiritual manner.
I can't really picture in my mind what's going on in options 2 and 3. According to my dictionary, 跋扈 means "思うままに勢力をふるうこと。また、のさばり、はびこること。" In other words, it means exerting your influence to your heart's content, having everything your own way, or spreading/infesting/running rampant. Is that really something that can happen in a ghostly way, or is it a state that can be 'ghostly'? I liked the suggestion of 'Creeping Domination' because it has a better link to やうやう, which ZUN noted was the inspiration behind 妖々. It's not ideal, though...
I also think there's a bit of a difference between 'ghastly' and ghostly'. I looked at a dictionary and found the following:
Ghastly:
1a : terrifyingly horrible to the senses
b : intensely unpleasant, disagreeable, or objectionable
2 : resembling a ghost
Ghostly:
1 : of or relating to the soul
2 : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of a ghost
Incidentally, I don't see any reason why 楽団 shouldn't be translated to Ensemble, meaning the Prisomrivers' theme can simply be called "Phantom Ensemble". I also had a request from an arranger to translate a song called 幻葬夜行 as "Night Travel of Necro Fantasy". I didn't see a link between 幻葬 and 'Necro Fantasy' before, so I thought it was pretty interesting.
Anyway, that's my contribtuion. I'm not sure if it will actually help us reach a decision, but it's an issue that's worth discussing further either way! Biggest Dreamer (talk) 09:15, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Ah, thank you for replying! It's always good to know other people's thoughts. I believe you misinterpreted what I suggested, however. For the extra and phantasm stages I postulated using "Spiritual Domination" and not "Ghostly Domination". I explained that the word "spirit" is all-encompassing when it comes to supernatural phenomena. And yes, I would have loved for youyou to be translated more authentically into something resembling the poem it came from (which ZUN explicitly states is what the title means), but everyone (and I mean everyone) disagreed (this all happened on the wiki's Discord btw). So that's out of the picture, sadly. Anyway, it seems you have a limited definition of what Ghostly/Spiritual entails.
Ghostly - of, relating to, or having the characteristics of a ghost (Merriam Webster)
Spiritual - of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena (Merriam Webster)
See that? Of. Ghostly means [of] ghosts, not just "like a ghost". Spiritual means [of] spirits, not just "like a spirit". Any native English speaker could tell you that and no one would get confused. Thus, "Spiritual Domination" would literally mean "Domination/Rampage of Spirits" (and not "A Rampage That is Like a Spirit"). A "Domination/Rampage of Spirits" is exactly what is happening in the extra/phantasm stages. Ghosts were running amok in Gensokyo because the border of the Netherworld was weakened (see: Extra Stage Prologue & Story). And I suggested using "Spiritual" because spirits includes more than just ghosts. It can describe gods, demons, monsters, you name it. Basically anything supernatural. "Spiritual" is a perfect translation because it refers to both ghosts (which is what the stage is really about) and youkai (which is what the previous translators argued that the stage was about).
By the by, ZUN clearly uses "ghastly" to relate to death and spirits (see: Yuyuko's spell card which is preceded by Death Sign). Yes, in modern English "ghastly" and "ghostly" are seldom interchangeable. But back then it was. And I highly doubt that ZUN meant "ghastly" as in "terrifying" or "unpleasant". He meant it as a synonym to ghostly (that is: involving or relating to ghosts/spirits). See the comments on the stage 5 theme of PCB that I posted above. ZUN definitively states that the reason he put youyou in the theme title was because it relates the the Netherworld (i.e. the land of ghosts). Thus, youyou is indeed "ghostly" and the title of PCB should be changed back to "Ghostly Dream". I brought all of this up in my first post...
And about the "Phantom Ensemble" thing...don't you think "Phantom Ensemble ~ Phantom Ensemble" is going too far? Changing "Ghostly" to "Phantom" is absolutely necessary due to reasons which I brought up in my original post but 楽団 literally means "band" or "orchestra" and is a less-than-common synonym for "ensemble" in Japanese, for which "ensemble" is more often presented as 合奏/合奏団 or 重奏. Besides, the Wiki already translates ZUN's doujin circle's name (上海アリス幻楽団) into "Shanghai Alice Fantasy Band", not "Shanghai Alice Fantasy Ensemble". Anyway, thank you for taking your time to respond. Things on this wiki move really slow so I appreciate that you got here within the week rather than months later like what happens with a lot of other talk page discussions.
Ennin (talk) 10:07, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Okay, so my worst fear has been realized. It's been nearly a month since my original post and no one else has really chipped in. Such is the state of the slow process of trying to make changes in the Wiki, unfortunately. Unless someone else chimes in for discussion or can point serious flaws in what I suggested then I'll be changing what I feel needs to be changed. I'll wait two days for a response (of course, further discussion can always be had after that as well).
Ennin (talk) 03:26, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
(Sorry for not commenting for so long.) For what my opinion's worth I say yeah go for it, the suggested changes + the rationale for them is all good imo Gilde (talk) 01:29, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Alright, I'll go ahead and make the changes now. Thank you for responding! If anyone else finds this convo at a later time and has a problem with the changes then this issue could be further evaluated.
Ennin (talk) 07:07, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

What a mess. I should have read this sooner. Like I said on Talk:Touhou Wiki/Archive 10#Re: Using "Touhou" or "(literal translation)", I was the one that helped spearhead the use of "mystical" for some of these. What is your opinion about what we talked about there? (You may find that the previous page on the topic useful, but I think the discussion in Archive 10 is the most relevant.) Code Slasher (talk) 06:48, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Also, I talked a little bit about the usage of "mystical" here, if it helps. Code Slasher (talk) 07:29, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Hm, well that first link really wasn't even talking about the same subject. That was more about the grammar, specifically about adjective placement. That's resolved already, "Eastern" is always put before the ○○○ of the title in cases where both appear together. The second link doesn't have much to add either. Yes, "mystic/mystical" is a valid translation for 妖. I've already established that in discussion above. I've also thoroughly explained why "ghostly" takes precendent in the same discussion. The fact that you've posted here suggests to me that you have a issue with the change. May you explain what that issue is? If there is any, of course.
Ennin (talk) 09:13, 8 April 2019 (UTC)