Talk:Reisen

From Touhou Wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search

reisen was with Watatsuki no Toyohime while she waited for Yukari Yakumo and to fall into a trap

Question[edit]

Is what's written above a fact? Or is it another vandalism by an anon? Deathsoul4 00:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

It's a fact. When Toyohime confronts Yukari in SSiB, you can clearly see Rei'sen (Who wears a helmet with floppy bunny ears) along with her. Taberone (talk) 04:51, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Hyphenated name[edit]

I'm a little curious, why is her name hyphenated all of a sudden? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 20:28, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

It's done all by Prime32. I also think it should be turned back unless s/he makes proper explanation. --masuo64 Talk 04:54, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Because 鈴仙 and レイセン are completely different in Japanese - レイセン is just an approximate pronounciation for a name from another language, while 鈴仙 is a proper Japanese name. Translating them as the same name leads to confusion between the two rabbits and obfuscates part of Udonge's backstory. I've seen plenty of people arguing that this is wrong and they should be differentiated in some way, but not doing anything because they couldn't agree on how. I figured something was better than nothing, and that it basically came down to one of three options:

  • 鈴仙 = Reisen, レイセン = REISEN. This is pretty popular in light novel and VN translations (e.g. Tohno Shiki and Tohno SHIKI in Tsukihime). But no one writes things like that in real life, and fans often miss the reason for the capitalisation and leave it out (meaning it does little to stop confusion).
  • 鈴仙 = Reisen, レイセン = Raysen/Reighsen/some other variant spelling. Likely to be mispronounced, or receive backlash for not looking Japanese.
  • 鈴仙 = Reisen, レイセン = Rei-Sen. Maintains Japanese phonics while still looking somewhat exotic, as レイセン does.

"Rei-Sen" is still close enough to "Reisen" that you could still understand references to the old spelling from context, so it seemed like the best option available. --Prime32 (talk) 21:02, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I see your point, that does clear up why there needs to be a change. I wouldn't count on the former two options, based on the same reasons mentioned. The latter, however, I'm not certain about, but I'm certainly not against it. I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do on capitalising the "sen" because I'd see that as an "hyphenated first name", e.g. "John-Paul", if I'm not looking at it as a Japanese name. Although, even I'll admit I'm not that good with how romaji should be constructed.
However, if I could throw in another suggestion, that would be "Rei'sen" with the use of an apostrophe. The apostrophe separates letters or syllables that may have ambiguity in a word (one example being the Len'en Project). I thought it'd fit nicely with the ambiguity we've got here, although I'm not certain if this is the best option for everyone; compare "Reisen" (鈴仙) with "Rei'sen" (レイセン). Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 03:12, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
The use of apostrophe is normally only used in Japanese to disambiguate the ん (n) kana from な, に, ぬ, ね, の (na, ni, nu, ne, no), such as Len'en in your previous example so that people won't confuse it for Lenen (レンエン, not レネン). Or Kin'iro and Sanzen'in. That said, it does look more aesthetically pleasing than hyphenating and capitalizing the second syllable. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 04:21, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
There is a strong need for two distinct spelling of the two moon rabbits, I understand. But honestly speaking, the hyphenated name almost always reminds me of Korean name — like Kim Jong-un or Ban Ki-moon. Sometimes for Chinese name — it's a shame I can't remember nothing but Chun-li. This hyphen is not in the official orthography, but very broadly used by far more frequently than official one. This sign in Korean works the same as the apostrophe in Japanese like above. And the hyphen is used quite less in Japanese, unless they roughly write and express "bunsetsu" or a hunch of distinct words with an unofficial sign, like "watashi matte-masu" (I'm waiting) or "nana-ban de" (No.7, please). This is obviously different from the Korean usage. If you know it and feel it's of no importance, I suppose the hyphenated name is one of good choices; the katakana is also used for modern usage when we transcribe (want to mimic) the sound. The sound, I say, cannot be understood in their language... like the noises (bow-wow, splash, etc.) and the foreign tongues (remember all European names is written in katakana). And the hyphenated name in Roman alphabet isn't, according to the point above, Japanese name. Anyway, maybe there isn't the best solution. --masuo64 Talk 07:04, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Hyphens being unusual in romanised Japanese names is exactly why I went with them - to preserve that レイセン looks unusual and isn't really Japanese. Incidentally, Kasen has a similar issue with her real name and alias being spelled differently; I like the idea of her alias being romanised as Ka-Sen, precisely because it goes with the Chinese image she tries to maintain. --Prime32 (talk) 14:31, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
You know, on second thoughts I'm starting to warm up to the apostrophe, especially if Kasen ever gets hyphenated (since using hyphens for both would imply an association that doesn't exist), but I think it would work better as Re'Isen - it looks more alien, like the kind of name you'd see on an elf, a demon, or, well, an alien. --Prime32 (talk) 01:13, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
What about "Rei Sen" with a space? Murasaki (talk) 16:27, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

lol I forgot about this. Anyway, from what I've read here, the apostrophe seems to be the most liked(?) We can always list alternative spellings on the infobox (and of course we'll need to explain these spellings under the name section). Also, I wouldn't count on using "Re'Isen", only because I'm basing it on the rules of romanising. I'm also not keen on "Rei Sen" with a space because "Sen" would then become a surname. If there's no comments, then I'll (or someone else, of course :) change it to "Rei'sen" on the page, then eventually standardise it thruout the wiki. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 17:47, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Just in here to say I concur with the use of Rei'sen. Easily distinguishable, simple change to make ("Reisen II" is terrible), pronounced the same, isn't ambiguous syntax, doesn't look weird. --Drake Irving (talk) 03:38, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Vanishing[edit]

How in the world is this an ability? Couldn't it just be, you know, the same effect used in many other manga and comics where a character that was there a second ago isn't there anymore and is instead behind the other character? Flandre5carlet (talk) 09:31, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

This ability refers directly to this occasion: 1 and 2
It's not clearly visible if it was teleportation or just high speed, that's why Vanishing has a (?) symbol, the true nature of the action is unknown. --Camilo113 (talk) 03:58, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Ahhhh. Okay, this isn't how I remembered the scene at all. My bad. Flandre5carlet (talk) 20:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Raysen v Rei'sen[edit]

I recommend changing her name from Rei'sen to Raysen. While both make it clear that it's distinct from Reisen, Rei'sen has an unnecessary apostrophe which could even incorrectly imply a glottal stop. It's also a little silly. By contrast, Raysen would be pronounced exactly the same as Reisen but strongly implies that it's not a Japanese name, which is more or less the same distinction as Katakana and Kanji. Clarste (talk) 20:26, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm all for ditching the apostrophe, but I'd rather call her "Reysen" instead. That way the spelling is kept almost the same as "Reisen", except for one distinguishable letter. --Splashman (blub) (talk) 20:36, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm also for ditching the unnecessary apostrophe. As a plus, "Raysen" is much less confusing. People still occasionally confuse Rei'sen with Reisen because the only difference is an apostrophe somehow. Taberone (talk) 21:12, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
> Raysen would be pronounced exactly the same as Reisen
By native English speakers, perhaps. Others are likely to get it wrong. So I also think that "Reysen" would work better than "Raysen". --Niektory (talk) 22:18, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
I have no objections to Reysen if people would prefer that over Raysen. They're basically the same to me. --Clarste (talk) 23:07, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
I also have no objection to renaming her into "Reysen" for the reasons listed above. I'll just have to get used to it. :P Lebon14 (talk) 13:48, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
While "Reysen" would probably fix this glottal stop mess, but it may be a problem as the existing fandom has called her "Rei'sen" for a long time. --CapTengu (talk) 18:57, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
I mean, the existing fandom only started calling her "Rei'sen" because we decided to change it to that here on Touhou Wiki two sections above, so I think people can handle it. Polaris (talk) 21:58, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Really the main issue in that sense it that it looks incredibly silly that we got everyone to change to a better name than Reisen II but now are changing again. It will probably seem unnecessary or fickle to many, and although it isn't as though the touhouwiki is a "real" authority on things like this some people treat it as a de facto source so it might be damaging to credibility in some eyes. Drake Irving (talk) 03:50, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
How much of a problem could a name change for a minor and (admittedly) insignificant character really be? I'd say that probably most Touhou fans don't even know or care that she exists, so there wouldn't be too much damage from changing her name. There's also the glottal stop thing getting solved and the issue of the apostrophe causing her to get confused with the original Reisen (especially when it comes to fans that don't know that there are two Reisens, and assume that "Rei'sen" is just an alternate way to spell Reisen I's first name) getting solved. Taberone (talk) 05:37, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm not saying it's a substantial objection, just that it's the objection that would inevitably happen. Drake Irving (talk) 05:50, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
Any last objections before I take the initiative and change Rei'sen to Raysen or Reysen (probably the latter)? Seems that we agree on the change for the most part. Taberone (talk) 23:52, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
Should this be brought up on /r/touhou? -CapTengu (talk) 00:03, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
What for? I doubt that they would care, since Rei'sen is nowhere as popular as the original Reisen is, and is pretty obscure. Might be worth bringing it up anyway, I guess. Will get to that eventually. Taberone (talk) 23:50, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
We could just change it to "Reisen", and let the disambiguation headers on all of the articles do the work. Is there any real reason it needs to be specifically romanized in a way other than "Reisen"? I mean people will already confuse the two characters by their first names; the disambig headers are meant to clarify that. Mami (talk) 03:56, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Hold on a second, there is never a conclusion of moving Rei'sen to Reysen article, and you already starting to change the whole wiki link? - KyoriAsh (talk) 02:50, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
This is a bad idea all around. Even worse than changing her name in the first place. First, we're a wiki, we have disambiguation to take advantage of to direct users to whichever Reisen they want. Second, as a "de facto source" like someone said above, we have a responsibility to not go out of our way to not perpetuate misinformation, no matter how minor the character or a change is or not. Third, I think if the community latched onto the unnecessary apostrophe, they will latch onto the new spelling, and two years down the line we'll be complaining about that. By the same token, we have to trust them to do what they will and figure it out for themselves, like they did with Reisen II, and not as I see it...be the arbiter of how we think they should spell it. Finally, pronunciation of Raysen or Reysen is also somewhat of a moot point. This is the internet, most will see her name written, not spoken, after all. I would think it's more important to address that first. And to change her name removes the fundamental point to it, being named after Reisen, after all.
I really think we ought to change it back to Reisen, stick with the disambiguation header or a separate page, and be done with it. UTW 13:54, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
The IPA is included in the infobox, so it should be clear that this Reisen and Udonge Reisen are pronounced identically. But if the apostrophe is causing confusion regarding the pronunciation, then I would be supportive of a change.
The problem I have with 'Reysen'/'Raysen' is that, while it does convey that the name is in a sense not-Japanese, it looks too American/Western for a character derived from the lunar rabbits of Japanese & Chinese folklore. If we really want to emphasize the exotic-ness of the name, perhaps we should transliterate it to Old English?
That said, for now I'd be for reverting the page back to "Reisen" or "Rei'sen" (and like Mami and UTW suggest utilize the disambiguation page). Ibaraki Ibuki (talk) 16:39, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
First of all I dislike the fact that this was reverted without consensus after we waited multiple months for any objections to be made to Reysen. Second of all, I find the idea that we should leave it as Reisen and let the fans figure out which one is which to be absolute nonsense: a Japanese reader can easily distinguish between 鈴仙 and レイセン at a glance. Any confusion that occurs in the English audience would absolutely be our fault and no one else's. The choice to not to distinguish their names at all is still a choice, no matter how you might try to frame it as being neutral. Arguing that we should step back and allow this unnecessary confusion to spread by leaning on the disambiguation page strikes me as recklessly irresponsible, far moreso than translating a name. Which, I might add, we do constantly with names like Maribel (which in my opinion is far far worse). So from my point of view, it's clear that we're simply choosing between Reysen and Rei'sen right now, and from what I can tell from this talk page, Reysen is currently preferred by most people. So why was this reverted to Rei'sen then? I don't want to turn this into an edit war, but I am seriously questioning our procedures here. Clarste (talk) 18:26, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
As a wiki I believe we're to put facts forward, with adequate explanation where needed on the character page, talk, wherever. How people use that information is up to them. They could call her Reisen, or Rei'sen, or Reysen, or Raisin after that for all I care, but I know we would have done our jobs without bias. I see it as, like I said, editorializing, dictating, arbiting, that information, based on personal whims, preference, or change for the sake of change. Especially where that information sort of removes a central component of that character. A separate disambiguation change wouldn't even be needed, anyway, just the header as it exists.
As for Maribel or Maeriberi or Merryberry or whatever it is, or for that matter Furandooru, there's a difference in that those don't make a lick of sense of English, which isn't the case for Reisen. Her name being in kana is inconsequential because English doesn't have such a thing anyway and IMO would be a clumsy approximation. At any rate, we are still writing for an English audience, after all, where things like Maribel or Flandre are within reason and don't look R'lyehian like a proper romanization of their names would be. That said, I would change their names, as well, and leave it up to fans to use what they want after that, if that's what it took to be accurate across the board and hopefully stop these debates as far as we're concerned, but I know I'm in the minority and our minds are set. UTW 20:59, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
The simple fact is that her name is written differently than the other Reisen in Japanese. What you are doing is willfully ignoring that basic truth and doing your own editorializing on how her name is meant to be seen. This is your own bias which you are apparently completely blind to. I acknowledge that there may be no perfect solution to this since English doesn't have an equivalent of kanji and katakana, but loudly declaring that your own personal opinion is the "unbiased" one and making major reversions without consensus (and changing it back to Rei'sen in the process, which should be equally offensive to you by your own logic) is not how things should get done on a wiki. And of course it's beyond simple to just explain why we chose this name on the page itself, which we already do. Ultimately, it all comes down to the fact that we've accepted Rei'sen here for 4 years now without you pushing this change, but when we try to change the arbitrary Rei'sen to the equally arbitrary Reysen, with broad support among the community, suddenly that's a bridge too far? I feel that you are being dishonest here. Clarste (talk) 21:35, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
You may be talking generally, but I wasn't the one who reverted it. As much as I may disagree, I play by majority rules. And I simply wasn't around or more likely missed the previous discussion. I don't even know what my thoughts would have been, but doubt I would have supported the move then either. But with it catching my eye this time albeit a smidgen late it was an opportunity to make my feelings known. Anyway, like you said they're both arbitrary changes, which I disagree with as being a better change compared to simply using Reisen, which is all this is about. UTW 22:21, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Oh, my apologies. I assumed that you were at least supporting the reversion. I suppose this is the best chance for you to make your general thoughts known. But in that case, it's not clear to me why the reversion happened, and the person who did it is not here to discuss it. The edit reason says "pending discussion" but we discussed all this back in February/March/April and it was more or less unanimous, with people only bringing up a "potential objections" from third parties who are not present (and Mima arguing to revert even further back to from Rei'sen, surely an objection made 4 years too late). Then Taberone asked if there were any final objections to making the change, and waited two full months with no response. While obviously not everyone who might care will be automatically directed to this discussion, there was about as much of a consensus as there could possibly be in this context. The idea that this was still under discussion seems a little odd to me. Clarste (talk) 22:45, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
I was the one who did the reversion and I apologize for that. I was under the presumption that this change was still being talked about given the conversations in the various Discord servers and the Twitter poll about what the best course of action was and was unaware of previous discussions. If it has been truly settled than we can revert it back although it's still being talked about in the Touhou Wiki discord server. Once again, I apologize for my hasty reversion. --DTM (talk) 00:01, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Some notes;

  • The use of Katakana for foreign language use: this may not even be one with a Latin character set, what's to say "Raysen"/"Reysen" would reflect that in the first place?
  • The use of apostrophes is annoying because of it's use to indicate the glottal stop. Ask someone using "Jo'on" to pronounce that and see if they say "Joe-own". On the other hand I understand it's use to indicate the different underlying kana, but then we get into the point of romanization in the first place. (to properly transcribe underlying kana, or to help in pronunciation?)
  • I don't even really remember the original name-change of that article; it's been 3-4 years since then but I would've probably said the same things above, but also taking issue with the act of vanity name-changes in the first place. Renaming Eiki Shiki was one thing, as that's her actual proper name (No, her last name isn't "Yamaxanadu"). Clarification and correction of long-standing inaccuracies are good, but pushing it out of the boundaries of normal romanization and into creative spelling just smells like original research to me. (Don't get me started on original sources.)

So I'll reiterate my opinion; I think the original "Reisen" was fine, and use of disambigs to clarify this article from Udonge's. Also it looks like KyoriAsh took a Twitter poll about this; the results picked Reisen over anything else, but I do treat this talk page as the official record of action here, and recommend anyone else looking at this from elsewhere to chime in here if you want your opinion counted. Mami (talk) 00:33, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

In Japanese the characters have different names - similar pronunciations, but different spellings (one natural, one weird-looking). This concept also exists in English, so it doesn't need to be removed. Not only is it confusing to change two names into one name, but removing Udonge's decision to naturalize her name means that you're altering a major character's character arc, which is such a massive change from the source material that it shouldn't even be on the table (especially given she's one of the few people who even has an ongoing character arc in the first place). That poll "This is the voting about Reisen renaming to Reysen to fit in more for English-spoken users" is very strangely worded - not only does it present Reisen as the "real" name (thus reducing the question to "should we use the right name or not"), it makes it sound like Japanese uses one name and English uses two, rather than the other way around. --Prime32 (talk) 19:43, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Going from "Rei'sen" to "Reisen" sounds like an even more undesirable idea. If this change is implemented and "Rei'sen" is changed to "Reisen," how will we talk about Reisen and "Reisen" without getting confused as to which Reisen is being referred to? Or how will we even talk about "Reisen" without confusing her with the original Reisen? At least "Rei'sen" is somewhat distinguishable from the original Reisen because of the apostrophe. On another note, I was also not informed about a Twitter poll, and had no idea that there was another discussion even going on in a Discord server about this. Taberone (talk) 15:17, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
The same way we talk about the different Mai's; from the context.
And for the record, I vote for simply Reisen. ☢ Quwanti 16:35, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
So from my observation in Wikipedia, this article should be renamed as
Reisen (Touhou Bougetsushou)
This is how Wikipedia handled the same name article as example shown below:
Need for Speed: Most Wanted (2005 video game)
Need for Speed: Most Wanted (2012 video game)
- KyoriAsh (talk) 00:51, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

To be honest, the underlying problem here is: what do you want the wiki to be?

  • A purely encyclopedic and unbiased (as much as possible at least) source of information. If that's what it is supposed to be, then the wiki shouldn't even try to impose a specific spelling for a name other than what is used in official source, or if no official romanization exist, just use a consistent romanization system and stick with it. So both Reisen would be just Reisen. Because trying to differenciate the spelling in english is outside of the scope of transcription. When there are ambiguities, like multiple contradictory official sources, then favorize the "most used" term, as an encyclopedy should describe the world as it is and not try to create a trend.
    • The wiki as a whole already fails if that was the original intent. We have consistently chosen to ignore the official romanization in favor of our own (eg: Joon or Jo'on instead of the original Jyoon at the time) or go out of our way to find a western name that might fit a character name that doesn't have an official romanization (eg: Maribel). Yet these biased choices have been generally accepted.
    • We're not Wikipedia and probably shouldn't apply strictly the rules that operate there, because we're dealing entirely with a fiction and we would probably have to wipe half of the wiki if we wanted to keep only unbiased information. Even on the characters articles, the names origin or design inspiration are mostly original research no matter how plausible they sound, they are often based on historical facts rather than official Touhou sources.
  • A source which federate (at least try to) what should be the reference translation/transcription people should use. In this case then the wiki would try to find the best compromise between staying close to the original source and making it more convenient for the target (english/international) audience. In this case having a separate spelling for Reisen and Reisen is definitely better as it helps identify who is who directly from the spelling, just like in japanese.
    • This type of source will lead to the current situation, where different persons will have different opinions about what is "the best choice", and eventually lead to creation of new trends as new choice override the previous ones. We went from Reisen to Rei-Sen to Rei'sen and now potentially Reysen. Maybe in a few months or years, someone else will come here with another argument to change the spelling again to something else like Rēsen and find arguments to back it up.
    • Looking at the comments on the /r/touhou thread or the facebook poll, there are people who don't really care about following whatever the wiki decide to do anyway. There isn't much reactions, but it also emphasizes that most people just don't care.

BTW, as far as I'm concern, I'm against going back to Reisen, I don't feel like the change to Reysen is really necessary at this point, but won't vote against it if people really want to change it to that. AlphaPizza (talk) 01:14, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm being bold and renaming the article back to Reisen. Especially considering how many times it's already been renamed in the past (various spellings and descriptions tacked on to the name). Mami (talk) 04:20, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Earlier, it was said that "I mean people will already confuse the two characters by their first names; the disambig headers are meant to clarify that." Pretty sure that's more likely to happen now that Rei'sen is "Reisen", since now their first names are exactly the same. I still doubt that people are going to know which Reisen is being referred to in conversation and on the wiki, since the original Reisen is more visible compared to Rei'sen, and she's going to be the first thing that comes to mind when someone says "Reisen". At least with the apostrophe, you can tell Reisen and Rei'sen apart at first glance. Taberone (talk) 05:37, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

That's how redirect works to guide you to the correct article, not name. Alternate name has been explained in the article - KyoriAsh (talk) 07:02, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Broken image?[edit]

What happened to the IoM&IoEReisenColor.jpg image that was on this page? It showed Reisen's canon hair color. Anyone know how to fix? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taberone (talkcontribs)

Looks like a search-and-replace error. Fixed. Mazian (talk) 22:28, 9 June 2018 (UTC)