Talk:Soga no Tojiko
I have a problem with understanding the history of this.... character. First she's "Ghost of the descendent of the Gods" when in Futo profile it says "The Mononobe, descendents of the Shinto god, " and "Soga, descendents of humans,". If she is Soga she would be Ghost of the descendent of the Humans" right? Without any other back story of how she meet Futo and how she got along with her... but nothing... It is strange for me that Zun write so little on this character in comparison to others from the same game... Berzul 20:30, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- It's becuase it's said that all Japanese are descendents of the Shinto gods aka Japanese gods. Of course becuase theres so many thats rather insignificant and only the important deities actually matter. It's like Sanae, she may be a descendent of Suwako but presumably she has most of her descendents as humans since shes still a arahitogami and not a deity. Other than that...Tojiko is just to represent Soga. There really isn't much to explain but the new book might show more information or it might only restate the odvious if there really isn't much behind Tojiko. --Hikaruxz 01:01, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think so. descendents of Shintou deities are just the aristocrats, relatives of former rulers, or members of Tennou House. Most Japanese ancestors are farmers, subjects. The rulers didn't think they shouldn't be authorized; the authority is only Tennou, or Shougun. So most Japanese people didn't have relationship with Shintou gods.
- Most monarchs got authorized to show people their relations with the men authorized already. He's not a monarch, but F. Roosevelt also had the relation with T. Roosevelt. In ancient era, the blood connection was by far more important that now, in order to take a great post. They were apt to authorize theirselves to show their superiority, insisting that their clans rooted from gods. So several roots from Shintou gods were insisted by many local Gouzoku. But after Tennou's stable domination (about Nara era), the group gain power, who insisted on their roots of Tennou House, namely depended on Tennou's authority. From then, the descendent of Shintou gods were Tennou only, while other aristocrats were authorized from their root under a past Tennou.
- As the historical fact, Mononobe clan was the most conservative group (or were mass of groups), owned native-original great geological & military technology, and look up to the native religion (Shintou). They didn't need a new element. On the other hand, Soga clan was the most liberal group, imported the up-to-date technology & thought from China, and respected the imported religion (Buddism).
- The power game between Soga clan and Mononobe clan were kept before the time of Umako, you know. The religinal battles were lifted on it in the time of Umako's father. Mononobe clan did surely believe their origin were a deity. But, um, I can't confirm now that Soga were from human, though... --masuo64 Talk 03:37, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- But then if you look at it this way. The Touhou series is mainly based on Shinto. While looking further back, Japanese were primarily hunters and gathers rather than farmers. Shinto in it's early stages (Before it was even named) existed before farming was available. Japan is one of the oldest countries that survived on stone tools and hunting animals to survive during the time farming became a major part in other places in the world (Pointless information). Assuming that Touhou has Shinto as its base then regardless of what the Soga or anyother Japanese think, there descendents of the Japanese gods whether they like it or not (In the Touhou world). Of course if you want to use science, without knowing the genetics of the Yaoyorozu, it's impossible to know what your looking for when you study the genetics of the Japanese people (Impossible idea).
- Looking again at the Yaoyorozu, theres countless numbers of deities. If a minor deities mixed with some unimportant humans then it's insignificant. It only matters when a group is a descendent of a powerful deities. (Of course this is looking at it in the case that the Yaoyorozu exists.) Of course in the Touhou series you already have examples of deities from this specific group.
- What you stated are facts based on science and logic. When you look at fictional work you use science to answers things in the case of that fictional world existing as if was non-fiction. Basically you can't deny the existance of the Japanese gods in the Touhou world because they already appeared, thus saying that descendents of deities is only self-proclaimed doesn't apply here.
- All religion is easily crushed by science and logic, but thats not really the point here becuase it only makes fictional stories like this more confusing. It's not what you said was incorrect becuase that's pretty much it in the logical sense. I of course do it all the time since I only use science and facts for real world answers.--Hikaruxz 06:04, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I forgot that there two types of Shinto were taking about. 1.All Japanese are descendents of the Japanese gods. (Early version) 2.Only royaly Japanese are descendents of the Japanese gods. (Later version)
If you look at some other fictional works, characters can easily be made as descendents of minor/weak deities which applies to #1. While major ones are always going to apply to #2. Like the second portion of the previous post, really...only the important ones actually matter. I was just taking a guess and assumed Touhou used the earlier version since it was more a natural process where deities just naturally mixed in with humans. Again you can easily take this down using science and logic.
EDIT:WAIT...why am I talking about this. The original question was on Soga no Tojiko...--Hikaruxz 06:20, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- @Hikaruxz (Knowing this is a bit off topic but) I'm sorry, but you logic is not making sense to me. First of all, please don't use the term "early-Shinto" in that context. It sounds like you're referring to hte pre-Meiji Shinto, the counterpart of the "State Shinto". If may, use "ancient native Japanese religion" or at least "before(pre)-Shinto" please. And I can't understand your logic of "pre-Shinto" makes Japanese, gods. No, science or anything, it's has nothing to do with this. It is a fact that Shinto inherit from the native religion, but those are completely different things and can't be mixed up, like say if a certain fiction work adopts Christianity, it doesn't mean you can automatically adopt Zoroaster elements to it. You can't mix up real world religion to the Touhou religion directly, Touhou Shinto is Touhou Shinto, and has nothing to do with the real one. Unless when mentioned of course, like the Touhou Heaven and Yama from Buddhism. In any case, it weird to say Japanese were gods even regarding native religion too. I have never came across a such story, and like Masao said above, gods exist for justifying superiority. It sounds strange to make up stories of every people being superior, in such case those should be called "spirits", and obviously they're different things from the Touhou gods. Moreover, maybe I should need to point out that in the Touhou world, there's a clear distinction between "gods" and "humans". If Japanese in general (yes general. Imperial family, royal clan, fictional heroes, etc; all specific) were gods, then there should be a point of time that gods being humans, but such things were never referred in canon. In fact, considering the fact that Sanae was specifically mentioned that she would be pure human if she loses faith, I think this points out that gods only become humans for a specific reason (or opposite, human to god. Like Mizue no Uranoshimako in CiLR).
- @Berzul I made a fix in translation of Futo's profile. It's now "Soga family: a family that had a human as its ancestor". It's still not making complete clearness, but I think it will make a bit more sense than before.--Doncot (talk) 16:02, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- "Further more, there are some works that describe the relation between her and Miko as an 'official married couple' on occasion, but only its inspiration source says that, and they're in the terms of bosses and subordinates in the setting of TD, meaning they don't have any particular deep connection between them. The same thing could be said for Futo as well so be carful. When ZUN was asked about this matter he made a comment as 'It is That is roughly true, but I've just made her name chuuni-like and is a different person with a similar name'"
- (Be warn that he didn't completely deny it [That is roughly true part]. He's using the same method as Alice. It may or may not be, but he is not wanting it to be cleared out. In any case, it is leaning on the denying side though). And for your information, this interview comes from Febri Vol.09--Doncot (talk) 16:02, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Mother and daughter
Well, their basis's aren't really canon. It's only speculated that Tojiko is Tojiko no Iratsume and Futo is Futsuhime.
Futsuhime married Soga no Umako and had five children with him. One of them was Tojiko no Iratsume. Would that mean Futo is Tojiko's mum? (Well, only a speculation, but...) I'm not quite sure what to do with this. --Okuu 07:22, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
One problem with translation?
In her profile: She served Miko together with Futo, but she was denied resurrection as a human due to her previous connections with Futo. It would be more convenient for Futo to deal with her as a spirit.
In SoPM: The temporary body that she's using is a jar(*1). She wanted to move to a new body that would never decay, but Futo switched it with an unbaked jar. If Tojiko attached her soul to it, it would easily melt away. To prevent that, she gave up on having a physical body and remained a bourei.
Now one problem I see in this.. Both say something about her resurrection right? Both.. say something different, but I have doubts if the first part was translated properly.. In any case I would be for placing this little fact about that Futo actually tricked her into becoming a ghost... Berzul 01:07, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well all I ask is to check the translation for the profile again... Berzul (talk) 23:06, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
- Checked, found transalation errors in both of them,
I'll do something if I got the time.Fixed. --Doncot (talk) 03:57, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- Although there's sill a contradiction of Futo both making her a ghost and thinking her form is convenient, after the fix the "considering of convenience" is happening currently, and I believe it makes sense now.--Doncot (talk) 13:43, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- Checked, found transalation errors in both of them,