Talk:Symposium of Post-mysticism/Part 1

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Translation of 気持ち悪いし

Maybe I'm just being too sensitive sticking around on this one lousy phrase.
But I think this phrase is important because it describes the character of Akuu.
For your information, 気持ち悪い is the MOST strongest insult word we use in today's Japanese vocabulary(in general terms).
You can observe this phrase, and the slang version キモイ used frequently in our bulletin boards like 2ch, niconico futaba and so on as a phrase to express extreme abuse emotion towards the opponent (To put it short, it's only a moderate version of "F*ck off" in English).
The politeness level goes like this.
(あなたのせいで)居心地が悪いんですけど -> You're making me uncomfortable.
(あなたのせいで)気分が悪いんですけど -> You're making me ill.
(あなたのせいで)気持ち悪いんですけど -> You're making me sick.
(アンタは)キモイ -> You're sick.
As you can see, you want use 気持ち悪い and キモイ in public only when you're looking for a fight.
To give you a clue, I've saw a post that's saying "Akuu said 気持ち悪い to Marisa? Awww, what a horrible language to use!"
That's how rude this phrase is. And I think the translation should have the same nuance too(Well, unless you want to make the translation in a more mild language, then the story is different).
Therefore, I feel using "sick" here is appropriate. --Doncot (talk) 18:31, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

I notice that there's a question mark in the original Japanese (口調は普段通りで良いですよ? 気持ち悪いし) but not in the translation. Would something like "Could you stop trying to talk like a normal person? It's disturbing." work? --Prime32 (talk) 20:16, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
>>"Could you stop trying to talk like a normal person? It's disturbing."
That's more like it("Disgusting" is more accurate, since it has this "sickness" feeling which the original phrase has, but I'll leave it to you guys to decide. Akuu is using this phrase because Marisa is suddenly talking with those 「~です。」 manner which feels really odd knowing her ordinary language, and since this nuance cannot be fully translated, I guess I'm not suitable to judge whether the English only reader would feel right, after all).
That will do, but "like a sensible person" would be better in my opinion.--Doncot (talk) 20:50, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Marisa's speech pattern

I noticed that in the translation, Marisa's speech patterns are all in those "What are ya doin'?" tone.
While I can sense that the translator wanted to try to keep the tone in the original text and to make a contrast from her awkward polite beginning line, but is this really necessarily?
First of all, in the original Japanese, Marisa's speech patterns are showing boyishness and all, but not too much of a roughness. I feel she is talking too casual (or should I say dirty) in the current translation, it sounds like she's a typical country-girl from somewhere remote in Texas or kind of.
I think it would be perfectly fine with her using normal speech patterns, since it's almost impossible to deliver the boyish tone she has in the original line.
Besides, from what I observed, the speech patterns of her was simply normal in the other translated works on this wiki, why ruin consistency? --Doncot (talk) 13:25, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I think that most of the Western fanbase perceives Marisa as talking with that kind of accent, it's just not always rendered that way (either because the writer wanted clarity or found it too difficult) and its strength varies. It's pretty hard to tell from words alone whether someone is "talking like a boy" or "talking like a girl" in English unless they say something that particularly stands out; Marisa's speech patterns are known to be distinctive though, so the logic goes that they should sound distinctive in English too. --Prime32 (talk) 14:37, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
I understand what you're saying, but like what Prime said, it's the easiest way to show how she speaks more casually and boyish than everyone else. Also, this is how I always write Marisa. Check the Kourindo, PMiSS and CoLA translations here. I'm trying to be consistent by keeping it the same, although there are a few I haven't gotten around to changing yet. NForza (talk) 08:10, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Honestly, it looks less like a casual and boyish tone and more like a speech impediment. I'd say that "normal English" is already somewhat casual in tone, so trying to make it more casual doesn't work out well. The other way is to have the others speak with a more formal and elevated language, but I'm not sure how well that would work either. At the very least, I request that we stop using th' (the), o' (of), and t' (to), since the one-/two-letter words with weird apostrophes is probably the most distracting. Polaris (talk) 05:19, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
What's bugging my mind is that this special treatment of speech pattern is only done to Marisa. It's true that Marisa's speech pattern in the original Japanese is some sort of an unique language (precisely it's a fake-young-boyish-like-still-some-sort-of-girlish-like-casual-and-a-bit-sassy pattern, I've never seen any other characters - in the Touhou world at least - talk like that). But in the original text, her language isn't that much breaking the atmosphere at all, in other words she is being conspicuous (unnatural in my opinion) in the translation. I mean if you say you want to show her speech pattern, then why not deal with the others as well? (I know mostly only Marisa is the concern here, but just pointing out). For instance, Kanako is speaking in a polite gender-neutral style, while Hijiri is in a casual-but-still-polite mid-aged ladylike tone and Miko is in casual slight-manly tone. Or if moved to other works, Youmu speaking in an aggressive adult-manly tone in IaMP but like an innocent-girly tone in IN or Yukari always using strict-polite speech to the lower-ranks in every works, or when she gets really mad like to Tenshi in SWR (These are actually an important sign of her characteristic). For crying out loud, we have freaking-stupid insanely hell-hot controversy happening every once a mouth about Mokou spoke like a girl in IN but was a manly tone in CiLR and Keine and so on, which I've never seen on this wiki. I think adding notes about the speech pattern for reference would be at least more a better option. I'm not saying that you need to deliver all the nuances in the original text or even try to distinguish the speech pattern, but regarding this as a translation of an official work, shouldn't the English would be better if it could be kept natural and easy to comprehend as possible, even to a newbie? You could always use those and ze~ミ☆ at secondary works('s translation) and chat threads, don't you?
By the way, I agree with Polaris to at least stop using the "th',o','t" (plus "ya" for "you", if I could say).--Doncot (talk) 09:59, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I will admit, I think I might have gone a little overboard when I was going over part 2 of the symposium. However, I will say that I have been keeping each character's personality in mind (Kanako is more casual and direct, Byakuren proper and polite, etc.), it's just not as noticeable as Marisa's lines. I try to imitate what she says to ensure that it sounds natural, but when I was re-reading my latest edit, I felt that some people might have an issue with the apostrophes, since I was starting to feel the same way, heh. I'll tone that down in the future. I still want to keep certain slurred words like "ya" though. However, I will absolutely not tolerate "ze". There's no reason for it at all. Also, I feel there is no need for explanations about why characters talk a certain way, unless they mention it in the work itself. Some parts of a character are better inferred from behavior and whatnot rather than given outright. Anyway, I'll go clean up some lines and make it easier on the eyes. NForza (talk) 13:56, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
>(Kanako is more casual and direct, Byakuren proper and police, etc.)
Um, sorry bad news. In SoPM, Kanako is being the most formal (with some portion of charisma). And Hijiri is not being a police, for proper-ness it is so though.
In the symposium, the politeness level goes like
Kanako>Hijiri>(formal border)>Miko>=Akyu>>(casual border)>>Marisa>>>(offensive border)>>Reimu (my opinion.) --Doncot (talk) 16:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Getting off topic, but yeah, you're right. I guess I've been influenced by my own preconceptions a little too much. And I meant "polite", not "police", haha. Still, I think that Kanako has a bit more confidence and charisma than the other two. NForza (talk) 03:14, 7 June 2012 (UTC)