Talk:Touhou Hisoutensoku/Story/Sanae's Scenario

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Sorry, I can't make out 100% what Sanae means with her Stage 3 line: "ここは私が作った訳でも、 管理している訳でもございません." I'll leave this up to the other Touhou Wikipedians. Also after Cirno gets KO'd there's some other text that isn't present here. I'll try to insert it later if I have time. Yoroshiku tanomimasu. TheTrueBlue 15:19, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Wow. The Moriya crew has caused more incidents in the past three years than the entire rest of the cast has in their entire careers. First they try to take over Reimu's shrine, then they give an idiot nuclear powers - a side-effect of which was the re-awakening of the youkai behind the UFO incident - and now they've built a giant malfunctioning robot. That's four incidents they're either directly or indirectly responsible for, in under three years.

If I were a youkai in Gensokyo, I'd totally worship at their shrine.

Luceid 04:42, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Translation Discussion[edit]

Line 76: ka shira -> directly translates to "I wonder" and is a culture-crossing characteristic of feminimine gender roles of indecisiveness within language. Yes it's rhetorical, but it does have an English equivalent, there are well-mannered women who speak that way, and it is the most accurate rendering available for what would otherwise be lost in translation. It's up to the artists to put in or take out words, translators will simply render them comprehensible, which this is.

Line 84: Ah, iya, nani mo miteinai. I'll set this line to it's exact counterparts: "Ah, no, I didn't see anything." The "at all" is an emphasis that equals the addition of "aitai ha" in the next line, both stress the fact that she hasn't seen anything.

Line 216: Previously set as "already", I'll set this line to "at some point" for itsu no mani.

Line 234: "Is this a place where I can't come in as I please?" is the more accurate line as this is word for word what Sanae says. It is proper English and comprehensible.

Line 242: If it was "kore ha akuma no sumu oyashiki" then it would be "This is the estate", but it's "koko ha akuma no sumu oyashiki" which is more accurately rendered as "This here", so the original line "These grounds" is more fitting, "This here" may improperly make Meirin sound like a hick, so it will be avoided.

Line 282: The original line is more accurate and is proper English and comprehensible.

Line 340: It's English convention to place "the" in front of Lord, Lady, Goddess, and other titles of higher authority. E.g. Presenting the Lord Donovan of Coventry! It's a convention of respect that a living Goddess would merit more than any nobleman and it only appears here not only for that reason, but also because Sanae is a disciple, a direct miko to the Goddess Kanako.

Line 369: Most Japanese kids will refer to persons with whom they aren't the closest of friends as (intimately) first-name san or (less intimately) last-name san. This doesn't equate to "Miss" or "Mister" because children in English almost never use such language towards one another.

Line 384: See Line 76.

Line 422: Sanae hasn't made any excuses. Mondou muyou being "any further arguing is pointless." is devaluation of speaking as a means of conflict resolution hence the previous line "Talk is cheap!" The previous line before this line might actually be more accurate, though it'd make Sanae sound an old-fashioned Brit, as "No, perish the thought of ever doing evil." but regardless, it's not an excuse that Reimu is shooting down.

Line 469: 所為にする = to lay the blame on, "see it's on your head" unnecessarily idiomizes the translation which as "it'll be your fault" was already accurate. I'll add "just" as in "it'll just be your fault" to emphasize the total responsiblity that Reimu is heaping on Sanae in these regards.

Line 484: もうすぐ = very soon. I'll set the line to "Very soon, it'll be the bottom level."

Line 581: ああ (Ah)、そう言えば(which reminds me, come to think of it, now that you mention it) 核融合炉に異物が混入したって(The foreign substance that 混入=mix,adulterate,contaminated the reactor core)知らせが(notification, info) あって来たんだった (came for these ends, purpose)!来たんだった = had come, where kita would be "come" only. I'll set the line as "Ah, which reminds me, I had come because of the notification that a foreign substance had contaminated the reactor core!".

Line 606: Sono genki emphasizes genki, so I'll re-insert "robust" at least.

Line 706: 居る訳ないじゃん iru = there is, wake nai = no reason why, or no means by which, jyan = ja nai = isn't it/there?

Line 843: The new line works well. Even though It's Sanae isn't it would be more accurate, it would make Suwako sound inappropriately studious.

Line 1,023: Baka can mean a wide array of things, foolish, a tease, a trivial matter, folly, etc.. While Suwako might call the robot an idiot, the word "idiot" is too harsh for her beloved descendant Sanae. Baka here is being used affectionately by Suwako for both the robot and her descendant Sanae. Hence "silly" may be more appropriate.

お疲れ様でした皆さん。 TheTrueBlue 17:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

76: I know what "kashira" means, I just think it's redundant most of the time.
84: She says "nandemonai", which means "Never mind". She says "nani mo miteinai" in the next line.
234: How does "koko" not translate to "here"?
282: Who talks like that? You can't just think about being comprehensible or accurate, you have to think about how people talk naturally. "It appeared!" really isn't something I hear often. Maybe "There it is!" but if we're trying to keep the word "appeared" in the sentence we move it to a more natural place.
384: See 76.
469: It's not "unnecessarily idiomizing" if it's in character, and I thought it's perfectly within Reimu's character to say something like that. Again, "it'll just be your fault" doesn't sound very natural.
484: Again, that's not very natural.
606: I don't know if "robust" is the best word. Maybe "hyperactive"?
706: You don't have to translate so accurately, but I guess it's fine, but I don't like her saying "no way" for two sentences in a row.
NForza 00:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Line 76: Your thinking it's redudnant is irrelevant and doesn't change what it means.
84: That is indeed what Cirno says, it was an unintentional error.
234: "koko" is here, but "koko ha" would be this here, as in these areas
282: It doesn't matter if it doesn't sound natural to you or if you have not heard of English being used in that way. It's proper English and it's comprehensible. It doesn't have to match a style you're familiar with. So as long English readers can understand it, it serves it's purpose as a translation. It's not your job or mine or any other translators' to "naturalize" or "normalize" sentences. The artist chooses the words to put in his work, translators merely render it comprehensible in a different language, we cannot and should not hijack such work with our own interpretations that go beyond or exclude what the artist intends. That kind of pernicious sabotage you can leave to dubbers and other miscreants.
384: See 76.
469: Your judgement of what's natural and not, especially with regard to Reimu's character is completely irrelevant. Every fan of Touhou may have a slightly different idea of what each character would be like or how they should speak. Only Zun and other artists directly involved in the creative process can speak for such characters. Everything else is fan fiction.
606: Hyperactive is a much more clumsy word than robust. It has more syllables, is a compound word, and doesn't have the same human-like and action-oriented connotations of "energy" and "liveliness" that robust convey.
706: Your point about "no way" being used twice has merit. I will change it.
And I'll pre-emptively apologize for the personal attacks on the change-log page, I didn't notice that you had responded in the discussion page regarding your proposed changes. If I could remove the accusation from the changelog I would, but it cannot be edited by regular users. TheTrueBlue 00:34, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Holy bullets, dude.
I can understand that you don't want any misinterpretations, and neither would I. But the lines NForza (and I) are concerned about aren't that.
They're just worded awkwardly. There should never be any reason to intentionally do that, and I think you'll find very few who think otherwise.
If you played a game - or read anything, really - translated from Japanese, would you want everything to sound stilted? I wouldn't. And excepting a few cases (usually puns), it's entirely possible to avoid it while still keeping the original intent of the Japanese.
If the Japanese text sounds natural to a Japanese-speaker, shouldn't the English translation sound just as natural to an English-speaker? Makes sense to me. 00:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
They're aren't so awkward that they're incomprehensible. If the best that English can provide sounds stilted but still comprehensible, it is far better than to remove one of the original words or meanings the artist inputted.
Most of the time natural sounding translations are possible, but sometimes it can't help but sound a little peculiar to certain anglophones.
As for other media, I can think of many games and movies where the English was unbelievably crappy, as long as people can comprehend what's being said, it doesn't have to be as smooth and natural as Spielberg or Hemingway.
I disagree on that last point, it's wonderful if it sounds natural in Japanese, but if English can only awkwardly render it, then it's the short-comings of the language or the available translators. As long as it's comprehensible, all other considerations must give way to the prime concern that nothing the artist wrote is left out or distorted. I'm sure some things that sound tolerable if awkward to an anglophone from the U.S. may sound unacceptable to a Canadian or Nigerian anglophone, the important thing is to preserve what artistry existed in a comprehensible way, not to streamline it to individual preferences.
Of course if there are certain changes you still believe merit changing, then please put them forth in this discussion page so we can go over such proposals. TheTrueBlue 01:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
We have different interpretations on the issue of "preserving artistry". An artist uses words to convey meaning, and it is the task of the translators to convey that meaning to speakers of another language. In other words, words are tools to achieve meaning, and such we should strive to reach the meaning using the appropriate words in our language. If you focus too much on the literal meaning of words, you lose sight of the meaning that the artist is actually trying to get at. Therefore it is as important to find words to describe that unspoken context as trying to find appropriate word-for-word translations, and it is the duty of the translator to translate words as closely as possible to while preserving the "meaning". And if I were ZUN, of course I would want my wordings to sound as natural to a Japanese person as to a foreigner. If awkward wording gets in the way of enjoying the game, I would reword it. Finally, nobody on this wiki has authority to impose one's translation style onto others. It is poor form to force your version through while marking another established translator's edits as vandalism. _dk 02:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
So are we going with my translation or Blue's? I don't want to be forcing my translation on anything either, so we should probably settle this somehow. NForza 02:51, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I already wrote that it was mistake to accuse NForza of vandalism as I hadn't noticed his input on the discussion page and have already apologized for it. I have also already written that if I could remove the erroneous accusation I would, but that regular users can't edit the changelog.
The words themselves are what needs translating, when a translator starts imagining or interpreting what he believes the artist "means" he is in dangerous territory.
You aren't Zun, and neither am I, but I believe that as any artist would, that he wouldn't want his words twisted in any way that would compromise his artistry or the boundaries of his creations simply to have it sound better, given that it's already comprehensible and properly rendered in that other language.
There's a line between being intelligible and readable, and being too literal. If this careful balance is being upset any place in this article then please bring it to light on this discussion page so we can work together to improve the article.
I don't presume to be an accredited academic authority on Touhou or Japanese, but as a translator I take issue with inserting words that aren't there, needlessly streamlining what is already comprehensible so that it changes the original meaning of the words used, or twisting words around so something sounds "smooth". It doesn't have to sound smooth to work as a translation, and in fact, especially in subtitled films and televisions, translators often go too far and force culturally or linguistically difficult to render text in so "natural" or "smooth" a way that meanings get lost or new meanings created.
No-one here has complained that the translation is so awkward that it interferes with their enjoyablility of the game. Certainly that would be an issue that warrants attention if that were the case.
I don't have the authority to force my views on anyone, but like any thoughtful person I have my convictions and will voice my support or opposition insofar as those convictions require. My ultimate goal here is to improve the article.
If someone can translate or improve the translation of a line in a way that doesn't remove or insert any meaning better than me (as has happened in this very article as recorded by the changelog), then by all means, please do so.
As for NForza, he states he doesn't have experience translating, nor has he responded to my points in a way that supports his side of the argument in a convincing way. I do have experience translating and I contend that until such adequate reasoning is provided that specifically addresses the previously discussed lines (see above), there is no reason to change the present version. If this is unacceptable, we can defer this to higher administrative officials here.
The present translation is the work of many editors if you'll only look over the changelog, it's not "my version" vs. NForza's. It's NForza vs. everyone's previous work here.
TheTrueBlue 03:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
NForza and Blue need to cool their engines until one of the more senior translators and editors have a look at this. If two translators strongly disagree, chances are neither are completely right. And being inflamatory about it certainly doesen't help the credibility of either.
Also kindly reformat this page so the rest of us can see what is being discussed here. If it's all translators notes, put it under the same headline. If there are different topics regarding them give us something else than "=" and "==" as headlines.--Umhyuk 03:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
It's all translation and translation-related discussion except for the first comment by Luceid. TheTrueBlue 03:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I wouldn't mistake modesty with lack of experience. Continuing this discussion would be futile since we clearly have different translating philosophies, since I'm going on about "words vs meaning" and you're talking about how meaning cannot be interpreted. We are all here to provide English-speaking readers an opportunity to know the Touhou canon better. I can respect that. I'll leave it at that and work on something else, good day. _dk 04:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
NForza wrote on his user page that he doesn't have experience translating. I took his word for it is all. I regret that we couldn't reach common ground in this article. Good day. TheTrueBlue 04:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm a random bystander to this with no translation ability at all... which I suppose makes me the kind of person translations are for. Despite the clash of egos here, I have to say that I truly appreciate that we have people who care so much about doing a good job.
But I do want to chime in that "Very soon, it'll be the bottom level" sounds bizarre to me as another native English speaker. 06:44, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
There is no clash of the egos here. I'm really quite tired of this.
But replacing "robust" for "frisky"? Is Utsuho a pet? Well... I guess she is, but... Oh whatever. NForza 07:07, 21 August 2009 (UTC) and NForza, you're free to suggest alternatives. Accomodation and compromise is the name of the game at this time., I'm not sure how much literature and writing in English you've read, but as for myself, "Very soon, it'll be the bottom level." is comprehensible and proper English. Nevertheless, if the article could be better with different wording then it's worth a shot. I'll provisionally change both lines and you guys can see if the new ones are acceptable. And yes now that you mention it, Utsuho is a pet isn't she? Oh well. TheTrueBlue 13:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I've read a good bit of English writing -- other than the fact that I enjoy it, it was my major with the intent of getting into editing and publishing. I'm just about useless for Japanese, but fairly confident in my English. The line nonetheless seemed borderline nonsensical to me, and I can't think of a situation where I can imagine someone naturally using a dummy pronoun in that way. Maybe it's a regional thing, or some other quirk like that?
Oh well, that's beside the point in any case. Thank you for taking my comment into account regardless. I think the new version does sound much more natural. 18:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC)