Talk:Touhou Hisoutensoku/Translation/Komachi's Script

The oni of Old Hell didn't get along with the sinners, such that there are souls who don't want to leave the hell now.

^Sorry, I'm not really sure what this line means. The souls now don't want to leave because the new Hell is so much better? It's very confusing and I believe a re-wording would be highly beneficial.　I would do it, but I'm not what the English sentence is supposed to mean.

Also doesn't 癒着が酷 imply something deeper than "didn't get along" ?

Also the new link to the Perfect Memento entry on Yama's is unclear, as that page itself is mostly blank, I think the general entry on Yamas provides better information for English speakers who might not know what Yamas are or what they do, unless and until the Perfect Memento page gets an update.

If these issues aren't addressed in a day or tｗo, I'll presume to edit accordingly. TheTrueBlue 12:40, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

癒着 is mainly used when bad big powers share information, get deal, or control prise of public project in illegal manner. They are usually, for example, executive of Agency, and privately-owned manufacturer or banker. So that is maybe the collusion or the cozy relation.

The oni in Old Hell had got a lot of bribe from sinners to reduce their penalty. Old Hell (ex Hell of Blazing Fire) is under the ground, near from Palace of the Earth Spirits, and Utsuho's working place is constructed on it. And the Office of Right and Wrong (是非曲直庁), what is regarded as the central organization of Present Hell, is now the part of judging sinners after their death, where Eiki & Komachi are belong to. So Komachi is offering the raven in the former hell, Okuu, to join her together for her great power. --Masuo64 13:40, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Ministry of Rights and Wrongs

Unfortunately, "Right" and "Wrong" sounds childish in present day English. Instead, linguistically, to "do evil" or to "do good" is equivalent to doing "wrong" or "right". For example "doing the right thing" is doing a good thing, etc. Additionally this is an English Wiki and English readers could not get anything from the untranslated article on the Bureau/Office/Agency/Ministry from Perfect Memento. Will the article be translated and made useable soon?

I selected "Ministry" for dramatic purposes and because it's colloquially vague enough to not compromise the original meaning. I hope Right and Wrong can be similarly modified because the "Office of Right and Wrong" truly sounds like something from a fairy tale in a picture book for toddlers. Similar to if there was an office called いけない物といい物の庁, it sounds like that in English.TheTrueBlue 23:43, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

The origin of 是非曲直 is from Chinese (again), "二論各有所見，故是非曲直未有所定" ("Both views have their valid points, thus the rights and wrongs cannot be decided"). In this case, it is not whether one did good or did evil, it is just right or wrong. (Committing wrongdoing does not mean committing evil) I welcome anyone to come up with a more appropriate translation with this in mind, though personally I think "Rights and Wrongs" are as dramatic as the clichéd "Good and Evil". _dk 00:01, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

So according to these philosophical framworks one can do something evil that is right? And do something good that is wrong? "Right" and "Wrong" don't have the same dramatis in English in no small part because none of the Anglophone nations had or currently value any ancient foundations of ethical behavior (e.g. St. Augustine) as East Asians do so in moralists like Confucius. And I would attempt to bear in mind your summation of this phrase if I could understand exactly what was meant to be conveyed.

I have already made a case against using the words "Right and Wrong" as it sounds like a place where they decide whether to spank people or give them a piece of candy. On the contrary, "Good and Evil" invokes images of religious reverence, armageddeon, political corruption, and a knowable morality. In the meantime, I will provisionally set the line to "Ministry of Sins and Merits" - as this communicates a similarly implicit value judgement to "Right and Wrong". TheTrueBlue 00:17, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Further input: what is right and what is wrong? We as humans cannot decide that. An example would be the issue of abortions. Who can say definitively that it is right or wrong? Thus we humans can do what we think is right with no malicious intent (evil), but it can ultimately turn out to be wrong in the future or in the eyes of a higher being. This is what the phrase originally describes. The words "good/evil" or "sin/merit" implies that morals and intents are judged, but 是非曲直 doesn't do that. I still stand by "Rights and Wrongs" (in plural), dramatis not required. _dk 00:37, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

But as for the meanings of the words in question, don't those higher beings pass moral judgement, not upon morals or intents, but on the deed itself? The point is at some time, judgement is being made, some entity is presuming "right" or "wrong" upon a person or an act. In this way, they label such a thing a "sin" or a "merit". Something that ultimately (in this simplistic binary black and white values system) falls on one side of the boundary or the other.

Without such dramatis this otherwise serious and intriguing part of the Touhou universe sounds like an unimportant joke and trivilizes an important institution within Touhou. "Right" and "Wrong" are words for little kids nowadays in English, they sound naive, immature, and harmfully idealistic. This is not my preference, but no native Anglophone other than older religious fundamentalists who wouldn't know how to use a computer would still preserve meaningfulness from those two words at face value.

When casually read, "right" and "wrong" are words parents say to their pre-teenage children, like Santa Claus. Like Santa Claus, the topic of charity and giving rather than taking can be a serious moral issue for consideration and contemplation, but at face value, it's something to laugh at and does not present an equivalent definition to how seriously the phrase would be taken in Japanese. I urge you to consider this perspective and the possibility of more effective words from the point of view of English readers, rather than of those who are more familiar with the value systems inherent in the kanji.TheTrueBlue 01:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I feel like our positions have completely switched around from a few days ago. You're saying that the words "Rights and Wrongs" sound infantile. I don't think so. This boils down to personal preferences. A simple google search does not seem to confirm what you feel. sure is serious business around here. _dk 01:10, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think our positios have switched in that I'm trying to provide for an English equivalent that communicates clearly but also doesn't go beyond the original words. Using your google search model, it can be seen that there's an estimated 435,000 pages for "rights and wrongs" of which the first few pages come from a wide variety of unrelated topics, compared with "good and evil" which has an estimated 6,400,000 pages and the first page is a wikipedia article. Clearly, "good and evil" is a more understood, oft-contemplated, and persistent set of words to describe the issues of morality. I contend that google unequivocally shows how much more serious and salient "good and evil" is compared to "right and wrong". The point of "judgement eventually has to be passed" that I brought up above, you haven't responded to. Right and wrong presumes there is such a thing, and an organization charged with declaring whether something was right or wrong is consulting such a value system to determine the verdicts they hand down.

At this point I have issue with the words "Rights and Wrongs". For the purpose of improving this article I have to ask whether you take issue with "Sins and Merits" or "Good and Evil". And if so, please write what they are (exluding or including a response to the previous point about judgement being passed). As a compromise, may I suggest the "Ministry of What's Right and Wrong" or the "Ministry of What's Right and What's Wrong"? Such a different title lends a sterness to the naming that indicates authority by way of presuming to pass such universal judgement. TheTrueBlue 01:55, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Do whatever you wish. _dk 02:09, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Roger that. TheTrueBlue 02:11, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for taking my words into consideration Deadkid. I'll be the first to admit that I can be as stubborn as a granite goat with a steel anchor attached, but the many things I care about, I will take a stand for. My only wish here is for English readers of this translation to take the 是非曲直庁 as seriously and pensively as for example, Komachi's ending in SWR would make them feel. As an admirer of Confucian morality and values it would bother me if anyone were to unnecessarily take a related idea or concept lightly or without due respect. I'm glad this matter could be resolved amicably. TheTrueBlue 03:08, 23 August 2009 (UTC)