Talk:Touhou Wiki/Archive 14

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Remove the fanon sections.

I would like the removal of the fanon sections from character profiles. Here are the reasons why:

  • The actual canon profiles are not even done yet. It's difficult to take the character profile revamp seriously since the fanon sections distract editors from adding content to what's solely needed.
  • Some of the sections have traces of edits from Wikia, a few which are not very appropriate.
  • I think they're dumb. This is obviously an opinion, but it is one battle-hardened from more than five years of memes spewed in my face so it is definitely a valid point.

Alternatives for viewers to acquire info on Touhou fanon can be KnowYourMeme or TVTropes.

It would definitely be better for both editors and viewers because we get less memes in my face and people who want to know about Touhou can either get more invested and eventually be wiki editors themselves armed with context and clarity or just be more knowledgable about the series in general. Also less memes in my face, I swear to hell. --Choja (talk) 02:24, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm for the removal of said fanon sections. Waiting for another week before moving towards doing so, should this remain having no other input. ♥★♦ (talk) 02:27, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
The last time this was brought up most of those that commented were in favor. Obviously nothing was done about it then. Fanon (or fandom, as we call it) should still go somewhere though. As I said there, and primarily because Character/Fanon would result in subpages that would be entirely too short, I suggest starting a Fanon mainpage (and create a navbox as well as use the existing Fanon and Memes cateogry) and listing fanon under that. For example, articles would appear as Fanon/Game#Character for separate works and the characters that appear in them. We could also add notable doujin to these pages. We could also reformulate "Derivative Works" in the sidebar, Random Things and Fanon and Memes to work together and perhaps retitle those articles that would ideally be included as a subpage under Fanon/Fandom. UTW 04:04, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
I completely agree with this, thank you. I don't object to having fandom content/articles on the wiki, but they should be separated from the main articles and have their own area set aside. This seems like the cleanest solution. --C27 (talk) 05:03, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
I thought having Character/Fandom would've been the best option, but instead I favour UTW's idea. Yes, I completely disagree with having the fandom removed altogether, but I think that they ought not to be on the articles. It's consideredly lucky to allow unofficial content such as this on the wiki.
Also, I ought to note that 'fanon' is used for unofficial material that's believed to be canon material, hence that 'fandom' is used instead. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 09:39, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
If our goal is to be the best source to learn about Touhou, we cannot dump the fandom sections. We may not like that it exists, but we cannot deny how important it is to an understanding of the fandom as a whole. I am most concerned about the use case of a new, uninformed fan who sees the fanon interpretation of a character in a work out in the wild and tries to use the wiki to learn more about that character. If nothing in the character's entry page mentions the character traits they just saw and want to know more about, there will be confusion. Its even worse if they leave the wiki and go to TVTropes and learn more about what they wanted to know. If TVTropes is doing a better job filling in information, the wiki looks incomplete or unreliable as a source.
For example, a huge number of works portray Kaguya as a NEET. An uninformed user, the wiki's target audience, would go to the wiki to learn more. Without the fandom section, there would be no mention of this character portrayal, and the user is stranded. They want to learn more about how or why the character acts like this but there is nothing. Moreover, even if a fanon link existed that directed elsewhere on the wiki they would not know to look there. As if this point, as far as they know the interpretation they saw is canon and should be right where they are looking. On the current page, if the user scrolls a bit they can read how the NEET bit is an interpretation that does not directly flow from canon material. Contrasting common fanon interpretations with source material is one of the most important things the wiki can do for a new fan of Touhou. We have the power to inform on what is canon, what is just an interpretation, and why discrepancies exist. I don't think we should give that up, and I think it needs to be as visible as possible for users. AngryCow (talk) 06:11, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
I think that the fanon information doesn't necessarily belong on the character pages, but they still should be easily findable. What if at the bottom of the page (where the fanon section is currently) we provide a link to that character's fanon page with text similar to "XXXX's portrayal in fandom." That way it would be visible on the main character page without providing fanon material on there. While we would have to then make fanon character pages for every single character (and some would likely be very short), it would potentially help solve this problem.Murasaki (talk) 07:19, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm for the removal of the fandom sections because it will piss people off and deletionism is trendy. Can we also require notability for the fanon subpages (if any?) I love being all holier-than-thou about notability. Suzuran (talk) 14:45, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
As much as I support the removal (or at least moval) of the fandom sections, it probably would be a good idea for someone to at least get started on the process since a consensus has been reached. It'd be a lot more productive than smarting off about it (from either side). I'd love to do it myself but I only have so much spare time and I'd rather spend it focusing on translation/editing official material. NForza (talk) 09:33, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
I've made a start on moving the unofficial content to a seperate page, namely 'Fandom/###'. I've finished doing the main characters, PC-98 and Seihou, and unless someone wants to continue doing this, I'll carry on moving things at a later time. I should note that a page called 'fanon' exists, but I don't know what to do with it. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 21:06, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
I suggest Fanon could be moved to Fandom, which would contain links to the various 'Fandom/X' subpages already underway. Ibaraki Ibuki (talk) 01:40, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Okay, time's up. On N-Forza's behalf, I'm going to begin removing the fandom sections from the character profiles tomorrow. If you really want to preserve the section text, you can obviously use article history to pick the info up (although at this point you're going to start proving that you care more about garbage than info that hasn't been transcribed yet). Thank you for your input! --Choja (talk) 02:23, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

DANG IT! I cannot believe I somehow missed this! This is an absolute tragedy that this was somehow allowed to proceed. You have no idea how involved I got with some of the characters due to the exposure of what the fans believe about certain characters. In addition, I do not know why this was made into two sections, so I will simply restate what I stated before: "It's convenient for the fan researcher to find official information alongside the unofficial, common information and it adds a little more flavor to the characters in general." "ZUN doesn't add enough flavor to the characters. I don't think you could ever add too much 'flavor' to a character for one thing, and it might confuse someone if they try to look up Flandre Scarlet for information on the McRoll or Nue Houjuu for information on her PlayStation ties for another." Again, this is an absolute tragedy. Code Slasher (talk) 08:03, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Really? You're talking as though this is some sort of extreme loss. The content isn't even being removed, just put aside to other pages -- the link is still there on every character page, too. For one, if somebody is going to become interested in Touhou from fan characterizations, putting them in a wiki, where someone would be going to learn more about the character themselves, isn't really a point. The purpose of listing common fandom stuff is exactly to inform that these things exist and maybe explain the details behind them. If you're coming to the wiki to learn specifically about the character in the fandom at large, or to find out the motivation behind some fandom joke, how to find that information is still obvious. Otherwise, you shouldn't be mixing in this information, since conflation happens even when it's in a section labeled "Fanon". Adding "extra flavor" (for some definition of "flavor") isn't something we should be setting out to do: all this does is introduce false information and present it alongside the factual. The opinion that the characters don't have enough "flavor" already (to which I would disagree to begin with) isn't reason to sprinkle an article with "PADS AND YURI XD". As mentioned, it also draws people to put whatever random information they can find into the main article, and we know this creates a doubly-pointless argument of "what fanon information is important enough to put in", when really none of it is, essentially. The wiki, particularly in the main pages, serves a clear purpose of information about the series itself: giving people more memes to spam is not a part of this. Drake Irving (talk) 04:40, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Database cleaning

Are editors willing to help fix the frontend after the database gets cleaned up and inevitably explodes somewhere?--Choja (talk) 02:56, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I will do whatever is necessary, as time and ability permits. I assume it's file and page moving, link restoration etc etc ♥★♦ (talk) 23:33, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

GR & ULiL on main page? Also about related stuff on main page

I'm quite surprised that Gold Rush and Urban Legend in Limbo isn't added to the main page yet; is it possible that this is going to happen soon?

Also a somewhat related question; can Project Blank replace Samidare? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 14:23, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

"Samidare" is the name of a game, and "Project Blank" is the name of a group, are they not? Code Slasher (talk) 08:03, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi :) I understand what you're saying (although "Project Blank" is the name of a gaming series, like Seihou and Touhou; the group name is "RebRank"). The reason I think that it should change is because it's a gaming series and not just pointing at one particular game (this been Samidare); we already use "Seihou Project" rather than listing its three games, so why not with this. I mean, I guess it's currently using "Samidare" because of Touhou references, but I'd guess what would go against this is that ZUN didn't participate with Project Blank, nor however did he participate with Seihou's third game Banshiryuu. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 19:36, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Ah, in that case, I will make a few counterarguments. This is not "ZUN Wiki"; this is "Touhou Wiki", which means that whether ZUN participated in something is irrelevant. That being said, there could be an argument to outright remove the Seihou Project, Samidare, and Uwabami Breakers from the front page, as these are not Touhou games and would therefore fall under either "Related Games" and/or "Fangames". Even so, we probably should not replace "Samidare" with "Project Blank", as "Project Blank" is not a game and therefore would not make sense to include under the "Other Games" section. Code Slasher (talk) 01:11, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Because this wiki allows any content that includes ZUN/Touhou or former members of Amusment Makers, I presumed that links on the main page were allowed. Although I must say, I do concur with this been a 'Touhou Wiki', as Project Blank/Seihou/UB are obviously non-Touhou-related, apart from various exceptions in each series/game. I wouldn't class them as 'fangames' though, as they contain their own canon setting. To be perfectly honest however, I don't have an opinion if the Project Blank/Seihou/UB links as a whole ought to be removed because (a) the 'Touhou Wiki' statement and (b) the wiki allowing this content, which there is a decent amount of. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 00:46, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Some characters' abilities explanation missing?

Hey there. So, it came to my explanation while reading over the caracther pages that Kaguya's ability isn't explained for some reason. If you visit, for exemple, Wriggle's page, there's a section in Section 1, called "Ability". I checked Eirin's page too, and it's there too. I don't know if there was some problem with it or something but, anyway, you are now aware of it. Lebon14 (talk) 15:52, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, it was fixed! Lebon14 (talk) 06:20, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Doujin article

I propose creation of Doujin, to explain what it means and entails and all of the unspoken cultural context surrounding it. This can also pull in the small amount of article meat in Doujin portal. Anyone interested in fleshing it out? Mamizou (talk) 22:04, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal, but I would have just expanded the Doujin portal article and renamed it to Doujin. I don't believe both are needed. UTW 22:57, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
I too like the idea, but I also would've done the same thing as UTW. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 00:49, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
I am with UTW on this one. Code Slasher (talk) 17:58, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Lenen series character pages

I'm curious why there are pages created for these characters as they're not part of the Touhou Project in any way. Pages for Seihou or Uwabami Breakers I think is already a little too much, but aside from being inspired by Touhou Project there isn't much that they really need a page this wiki. ☢ Quwanti 20:04, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

The Seihou Project has very strong official ties to the Touhou Project, and Uwabami Breakers also has official ties to the Touhou Project, but I do agree that the Len'en Project has nothing to do with the Touhou Project. Code Slasher (talk) 02:18, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Both has a little more ties to ZUN in general rather than Touhou Project (and generally this is more a Touhou wiki rather than a ZUN wiki), but I understand the reasons. ☢ Quwanti 17:42, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm also quite concerned about the decition to make character pages for all the Len'en characters. Its understandable that Seihou needed the character pages for the reason explained above, ZUN worked in Seihou Project and helped in its creation, but with Len'en project it's the contrary, it's just another fangame created by someone who took massively inspiration from Touhou Project but it doesn't has to do anything with it in anything, nor in lore and neither with ZUN, and as we all know this is the Touhou Wiki which helps with the varied information about Touhou. My take is that those character should be added to a new section of Fan-made characters. Something like Fan-made characters/Len'en Project or something like that so the reader does not mix up the character from Len'en and the character from Touhou and ends up all confused. --Camilo113 (talk) 21:12, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
May i suggest that instead of adding "Fan-made characters/" to the article names, we put "Len'en/"? Remember that while it bleeds with inspiration from Touhou (and the player will also bleed thanks to the the difficulty curve), the characters and settings are technically all original. MapleTree (talk) 21:32, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
I honestly do not see a reason to have a detailed character page at all. The page originally on /characters was awful too, but that's because people tried to ad too much information to something so insignificant. ☢ Quwanti 18:46, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
I´m aware of this too, that's why I originally created a Len'en wiki. However, I realized that it had some recognition on the web and the information in my wiki was being slowly copied here. So therefore, I went along with it, since this wiki is more known. I agree with MapleTree. It's different from Touhou, but it was inspired on it (and Seihou) --SakuraMiya (talk) 19:16, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay... After been away for a few days, I see this is more of an issue amongst fellow editors. If I could say, personally, I see that people are over-reacting on what's allowed and what isn't. So, I'll start from the top on making comments and (try to) suggest why these articles are no harm to the wiki:

  • Yes, there're no official collaborations between Touhou and Len'en unlike Seihou and UB, but Len'en has (unofficial) relations to Touhou, and if I'm correct, this wiki can allow any form of relations to Touhou.
  • The Len'en Project is technically original and it's got its own canonicity, so therefore placing them anywhere under "Fan-made characters/" wouldn't make scene because it'll state that they're unofficial Touhou characters, (presumably) living in Gensokyo, which they don't. Maybe not 100% original as some Len'en characters are shown to be parodies of Touhou characters, but those references are quite indirect. A lot of films, games, etc. commonly have these kind of parodies and are still classed as original.
    • To add to article titles, having "Fan-made characters/" would make the title too long and in some cases inconvenient, having similar reasons for "Len'en/".
  • As well as the characters, the games are also very similar to Touhou; similar gameplay, layout, genre, etc. SakuraMiya actually made a good point: "this wiki is more known". As I guess, generally, people who have an interest in Len'en are also very likely to be interested in Touhou due to similarities, so therefore they're might want to search through this wiki to see if there's Len'en content.
  • Probably an important one, people ought not to get confused on what's Len'en and what's Touhou, because there ought to be a note on top of each Len'en-related article, explicitly stating the obvious.

Besides, there's now decent content about Len'en that's more structured than before when they were placed on the "<game>/characters" pages. They're not linked to Touhou in any way; there're no navboxes crossing between Len'en and Touhou, and the articles are placed under the appropriate categories. An exception though would be to place Category:Len'en Characters under Category:Characters as they are, well, characters. Some characters appear in more than one game, so to have separate articles is also convenient for this, having a central source for different content; I mean, having content for one character under a "/characters" page and having the same character under a different "/characters" page seems a bit unorganised. Having them also deleted would be a complete waste because it's indeed all legit. SakuraMiya has made a good job on bringing Len'en alive.

Yes, recognition is small, but indeed, it's slowly and firmly growing, as shown on the articles themselves. Finally, I actually do expect some other users to not mind this, so to see them comment against this would really surprise me. Thank you for my input :) Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 17:39, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

"...this wiki can allow any form of relations to Touhou." - In a mild form, sure. A simple article stating that the game exists is enough. Now you guys are also creating articles about locations and terms, which I think is too much. It's like you are invading the Touhou Wiki because the Len'en wiki does not get enough visitors.
"As I guess, generally, people who have an interest in Len'en are also very likely to be interested in Touhou due to similarities." - Sure. But such correlation should not be reason to just place that much content on the other's wiki, and neither for notability.
You state that none of the content links in any way to a touhou article, which also raises the question whether it really belongs on the wiki or not. ☢ Quwanti 17:17, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Maybe we should ask for the head honcho's opinions. The ones featured in the staff page. Personally, i'm fine with either keeping/deleting the pages. MapleTree (talk) 17:43, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree with MapleTree on the first part. I'm fine with keeping them. The main reason why I expanded the pages was because after RMI, the world of Len'en has been expanded. Trust me, if that wasn't the case I wouldn't even bother to edit it.--SakuraMiya (talk) 20:53, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
I understand that this situation is rather complicated. But, I don't see any intention of an invasion, I just think that Len'en is recognisable. I must've not been clear when I said about no links between Len'en and Touhou; what I meant is there shouldn't be a mix between the two, so for e.g. you wouldn't see Len'en characters on the Character navbox as that mostly involves Touhou and other official relations, treating them similar to fan-made characters. I have the similar reason for expansion of pages; I just knew since Len'en was first introduced to this wiki that it will expand with more games and a wider canon. JynX seems to know what he's doing, and I even darest bet that there'd be a fifth and sixth game. Also, I still keep true that Len'en deserves articles here on the wiki, as I (tried to) explain above.
There's currently only one article for a location and term dedicated to Len'en. If they're to stay, than having an article for Mugenri would be a must; to save having many articles for locations, they could all be placed under the sub-locations section, similar to the Seihou World article that covers all locations in Seihou. About articles for terms, I wouldn't know yet.
But yeah, overall I'd also like to hear an opinion from a main admin. (I think Mamizou edited a Len'en article at one point.) Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 13:26, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, but there's no direct link Len'en and Touhou. With Seihou and Uwabami, ZUN was actually involved with those (and some Touhou characters do appear in Seihou). Len'en's just heavily inspired. ZUN's not involved. I definitely think it deserves a page on the wiki outlining what the series is, but beyond that, it really should be kept to its own wiki. I do think that we should hear from an admin, but because Len'en has no direct links to Touhou (ZUN wasn't involved, not based on canon material, no Touhou cameos, etc.) I don't think that we should keep all of these articles.Murasaki (talk) 18:33, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
This thread seems to have died, and it was a rather serious one concerning the route the wiki is taking. All the reason have already been explained, and all them seems pretty legit to me, especially Murasaki's and Quwanti's and the thing that concerns me more is that this was the idea of just one person, Tony64. Tony, you didn't even try to create a thread to see the reaction and thoughts of the other people who contribute to the wiki, you just started creating the pages like if it was a normal thing, and we all now this is beyond normal. I agree this should be taken to and admin, but it's been almost a like week and no response so far. Yes, we know JynX project should be seen as something more important than others because it took the idea of the Touhou Project to create his own lore and characters and gained more attention and all that stuff but that doesn't mean it should be treated equal to Touhou, this is the Touhou Wiki, and the info that belong here belongs to anything related to Touhou or ZUN (his creator), but whats happening here is that the wiki is transforming in something very amorphous, mixing character of Len'en and Touhou, treating Len'en characters like they were Touhou characters (creating page from them), creating places that exist in Len'en Project and treating them like they were like Touhou's, that awfully, awfully wrong. And no, for the love of kami, just because something that is NOT Touhou Project gained more notoriety than other Projects, doesn't imply it deserves its articles in the Touhou Project Wiki, even if it take the roots from Touhou, one thing is clear and that Len'en Project is not Touhou Project. I'm not saying every thing from Len'en should be erased from existence, just like Murasaki said (quoting) :"I definitely think it deserves a page on the wiki outlining what the series is, but beyond that, it really should be kept to its own wiki.". Wise words indeed, it should stay like that, and I also think that all that info that's appearing on this wiki about Len'en should belong to his own wiki. That said, Im expecting some admin, if it appears, to give his opinion and word of the matter. --Camilo113 (talk) 19:59, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi; sorry, I've been busy offline and haven't had a chance to look this over. Yeah, this isn't really about Touhou. Maybe one page, but not an entire writeup. Unless we want to be a 'Doujin Game Wiki', which is a discussion for another time. Mamizou (talk) 16:24, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps just port it all over to the Lenen Wiki. Problem solved, I think? The amount of visitors the Lenen Wiki gets compared to this one shouldn't really have anything to do with anything, IMHO. You generally don't find Warcraft characters in the Starcraft Wiki (with the exception of times actual Warcraft characters appeared in the Starcraft games as cameos or vice versa, and even then it's only briefly mentioned on the wiki) or Dragonball characters in the One Piece wiki despite those series taking lots of inspiration heavily from each other too and even being in/from the same company in various regards, after all (beyond what shows up in the Trivia sections). Instead, they go to their own wikis. (as an aside, I personally make exception for Seihou because I don't think it's worth devoting a wiki to that series so it's a case of Touhou wiki being the only home it can have. As for Uwabami Breakers, I consider that "canon" to Gensokyo anyways and thus belonging here. But those are just my personal reasons. As pointed out, Lenen is in no way officially related to Touhou/ZUN at all both official-wise and storyline-wise as even Seihou had Touhou characters in it at certain times and Uwabami heavily implies the existence of Gensokyo in its' story) TiamatRoar (talk) 19:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Is the only option really just to use Wikia? Are people really not capable of starting up and hosting their own wiki for this? Or do we have to host every single tiny little thing here just to keep if off Wikia? =/ Mamizou (talk) 05:27, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Port the entire wiki over to Shoutwiki. That way, we can still (try to) keep Len'en stuff off Wikia while at the same time giving it its own wiki. Arcorann (talk) 00:03, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Soo, it's been like 3 weeks and everything remains untouched, so according to the conclusions, I'll star adding the Template:Delete to all len'en characters and hope for an admin to do something about it. The other thing is, I think as far as fangames in thins wiki go, we should just keep Len'en Project main page here and delete everything that goes far away as explaining music, gameplay, strategy, etc etc... That means, keeping in "delete status" the pages for every single games/character/music/strategy/story specific pages that were created without authorization, and just keep "Len'en Project page for general fan(game) information. Thank you for you comprehension ^^ --Camilo113 (talk) 00:05, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Wowow! I'm not finished yet. First off to clarify in regards to Camilo113, I've started a discussion way before all this occurred. I got tired of waiting for further responses that I ended up creating them due to increase in notability on the web (Of which Quwanti stated on that talk, and again thanking SakuraMiya for doing a good job in helping). I do try and use the talk pages if I think something might be uncertain, but because I hardly see a number of responses, I just end up editing what I proposed anyway, of course in good faith. Using talk pages really is a bad experience for me. Also, it's not usually necessary to ask for authorisation; it's a wiki.

As yet, I'm very, very aware of the differences between Len'en and Seihou/UB, and kami blind me I'm still surprised that there are many concerned about having Len'en on this wiki. With character pages and a few extra together (excluding images & game pages), Len'en content is only taking up round about a megabyte of data. But, what surprises me most is that nobody noted if Project Blank is just as guilty, because the games after Samidare hardly contains Touhou content/references at all (even though it was created by people from Amusement Makers). There are red links on the character navbox for chars that appear in RefRain, the second game after Samidare. PB content other than Samidare (which there is a lack of) has been on this wiki now for well over a year, and if I'm honest, that's another reason why I think Len'en deserves more than just a couple of pages.

Again, I've made it clear above that there ought to be no mixup because there's a note on top of each page saying that the article in question is part of Len'en, exactly like Seihou, because everyone knows that Seihou isn't Touhou. I've tried to minimise the amount of categories and links so Len'en and Touhou don't cross-o'er. If it weren't for the name '', no-one would be sceptical. A name's a name, it doesn't mean it's exactly what it means. I must say though, why weren't there a discussion about this when the Len'en characters were cramped up on the unorganised '/Characters' articles? Even then, they were provided ready to have additional content.

However, if there's absolutely no room whatsoever for Len'en and that people will not come to except it with open arms, than is an external wiki really the only option? No it's not. But if I may propose, how about a wiki similar to 'TouhouMUCK'? That way, it's still part of this wiki, but completely separate unlike what we currently have. But, I would be concerned about the name ''; not really convenient. OR, to save all this messy-wiki business, place all articles under 'Len'en Project/<character>'. It would be just as same as having them named simply as '<character>', but less convenient. Bit of down side here though, but if we do keep the Len'en Project article, then wouldn't people want to look into the characters and such? Maybe even in-depth? What if they preferred to see this content from this wiki?

Anyway, sorry to babble on there, just wanted to make things clear from my perspective. My main intention on this comment was to propose an open poll that can last for a few weeks, where even anyone not a member of this wiki can vote. That way, both parties can agree on a conclusion. Because, it's more about the visitors on what they expect from this wiki, and it can let them choose whether this content is okay to stay. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 01:07, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

There certainly is a note at the top of every page, but there's also a Project Characters notice near the bottom of every page claiming each character is from official Touhou works. Kyon (talk) 04:33, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Tony, you've now suggested that every character page have a header that says "this isn't Touhou", have them in their own subcategory of namespace, and separate them into an independent and parallel Category: structure. Those seem like strong indications that it's not a good fit here, organizational or otherwise. -- Mazian (talk) 22:27, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
If you're concerned about the Project Blank games, then maybe we should take a second look at those and possibly remove those articles as well. Murasaki (talk) 03:56, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Ok, so now I'm aware that you did create a Talk Page concerning this issue, and I can see you got a few responses, most of Quwanti, which I read it said every reason they should not be created and it seems you utterly ignored them and just went with it with the excuse of "got recongnition, better make a plethora of full pages in the Touhou Wiki". Since when getting recongnition is a reason to create an article in a Wiki where it doesn't belongs?.

You are right, this is a wiki, you don't need authorization to add stuff a contribute, but when those "stuff" are something which do not belong to the wiki, autorization is what needs to act and those are the Mods or the Contributors itselfs. As Mazian said... well, you said: this isn't Touhou; isn't that a definitley reason to demonstrate Len'en should not be here?

And concerning the wikia of Len'en... didn't SakuraMiya created a Wiki about it? But it began to edit the Len'en stuff here because someone created them and "the information in the wiki was being slowly copied here". That said, why in first place Len'en appeared in Touhou Wiki if it has enough information and enough lore to stand a Wiki itself, I think this is the root point of all this mess. And please, please, please, stop with the .S of "gaining recongition" because, sincerly, I do not see any logic in that statement, it's not even a basis to this discussion.

PD: And yes, concerning Project Blank, I think after all this settled, we should rethink the fate of those articles, but that's a topic for a not-so distant future but not-so close neither. Have a good day!

--Camilo113 (talk) 15:09, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I am as strongly opinionated about the removal of the Len'en Project pages as all of the rest of the non-supporters. To allow perhaps even more than five articles about a game that is not directly related to the Touhou Project on here could signal the death of this wiki, as it would become a breeding ground for all sorts of games that have no strong ties to the Touhou Project. I cannot in good faith promote this happening. Project Blank has actual roots in the Touhou Project, whereas the Len'en Project does not. If you would like people to know more information about the Len'en Project, simply add external links to an External Links section, but at a minimum, please do not use the official characters template on any of the Len'en Project's characters' pages, as that destroys the intended purpose of the Characters category. Code Slasher (talk) 20:23, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Let me finalize on this. Len'en Project stuff shouldn't be here. On the other hand if there's a stand-alone wiki dedicated to it I'd be more than happy to help move the content there, plus any other sort of assistance needed. I'll assume everyone here would be supportive of that sort of effort; content goes where it should, but not where it shouldn't (and especially not Wikia). Mamizou (talk) 23:04, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
It's been almost a month, have these pages been moved to the Len'en wiki? Mamizou (talk) 01:15, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
It doesn't look like anyone's bothered to replace the Wikia, so I created one on Shoutwiki. Any help moving pages over (and creating a main page) would be appreciated, since I don't intend to be active on that wiki after this. Arcorann (talk) 13:12, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
Export is now complete; feel free to start deleting pages. Any assistance in transferring relevant CSS and fixing up the pages (removing the now-unnecessary Template:Len'en note for example) would be appreciated. Arcorann (talk) 14:02, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Arcorann. Just mark stuff for deletion and we'll clear out the pages. Mamizou (talk) 19:29, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Whether Len'en is something that belongs on this wiki is also something I considered before I created the first Len'en pages back in the day. At that time, I figured that "if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck." Since then, I've come to think of Len'en as part of Touhou as a whole. In Zun's recent games he's even been making references to fangames, Len'en not excluded.

The argument that Len'en isn't a "true" Touhou fangame seems pretty dubious to me. If the canon within the game itself is the one and only deciding factor, then I'd think there would be many more games that have to be removed from the wiki. Since fangames -by definition- have different canon to the main series, it doesn't make sense to me to make distinctions based on that. Is it really so important whether or not Reimu is in a game? For example, what if the developers of Marine Benefit retroactively announced that the characters in the game aren't really Reimu and company, but completely different characters that only coincidentally resemble them? Even though everything else about the game is exactly the same, would it cease to be a Touhou fangame? Would we have to delete it from this wiki?

But I see I'm a little late to the discussion here. Honestly, as long as the information people are looking for is easily available, it doesn't really matter where it is. But because Len'en plays a part in Touhou as a whole, I think it also still has a place on this wiki. And because this is a place where people might first look for the information, it makes sense that we lead them along by linking them to the Len'en wiki. I think the new role of Len'en pages on this wiki will be to lead people there, as well as to provide some casual information. Besides the page for the Len'en series as a whole, I recommend keeping the main pages for each of the games as well, since I think there could be newcomers to the series who have heard of or are interested in a particular game and would search for and like to learn casual information about that game in particular.

Besides that though, this is no longer a place for in-game text, so I guess all the other game-related pages should go. Individual character pages are also excessive in this new context, so it's also natural for them to go. I guess my real input in the conversation here is that I don't think the main pages for the individual games should go. Maybe changed in some ways, but I think they still have a purpose on this wiki. Flan27 (talk) 20:40, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, Touhou derivatives mark themselves as Touhou derivatives, or would otherwise be identified by the use of Touhou IP. Len'en is not a Touhou derivative: it doesn't claim to be one and uses no Touhou IP -- in fact JynX explicitly states all content is his own. I think it's pretty clear-cut. Drake Irving (talk) 01:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Len'en is not a true Touhou game. If something looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it could be a robot or a type of waterfowl that is closely related to ducks. It is not a duck unless it has the genetics of a duck. Something similar is the same for Touhou fan games. They must contain a strong underlying link to Touhou in order for them to be a Touhou fan game. If the developers were to reveal that none of Marine Benefit's characters are from the Touhou canon, and if that were the only remaining strong link for that game to Touhou, then we would need to remove that game, period. After all, this is not a general shoot-em-up wiki. We must not allow for much leeway for gray areas to exist or we could jeopardize the integrity of this wiki. Code Slasher (talk) 01:06, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
If I were to argue with you now, I would only be repeating myself. I am sad to see the pages go, since I don't want to see the wiki go down this path, in the same way that you don't want to see the wiki go down the path I prefer. Nonetheless, I'm not arguing with the decision that was reached earlier. Flan27 (talk) 17:52, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
If you want to see Len'en content, you can always go to the Len'en wiki, Thanks to Tony64, Arcorann and SakuraMiya for their excellent job contributing and helping that wiki.--Camilo113 (talk) 18:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
To Camilo113, I actually appreciate your thanks, because (despite the heated discussion above), I am now happy to see that there is room for encyclopaedic content about Len'en. I've made a few comments here and there whether if the pages are soon going to be deleted on this wiki, because it's been a few months now since the finalisation. I'd also like to see that the Touhou Wiki adds the Len'en Wiki to the Special:Interwiki table as I would like to see that there are official connexions between the wikis. (I should note that ShoutWiki has Touhou Wiki on their interwiki table globally thanks to a request by me).
To Flan27, as you may guess from my comments above, I too used to be in support for Len'en to stay like you are. Obviously there was nothing else I could do if I had a huge opposition. However, thanks to the Len'en Wiki, it feels like Len'en is now gaining more recognition than ever before, and I must admit, it was the best route to go for the new wiki after all. Because of the latest game BPoHC, I now think that Len'en has become more than just a 'Touhou-based' gaming series, or as JynX puts it, 'inspired by'. I think that was one of JynX's main intentions; to not make another Touhou fangame and go for something where he can say 'This is officially by me'. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 22:18, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: Change the format of title translations

I've noticed that, despite the Japanese portion of the game titles being as or more relevant than the English parts, there is very little awareness of them in the English-speaking fandom. Many people, on seeing a title like "Touhou Fuujinroku ~ Mountain of Faith", assume that "Mountain of Faith" is just "Fuujinroku" translated into English, and may not even realise the original was bilingual.
This can affect speculation on future games - e.g. even if the next game is called "Wind God Chronicles", many English fans will be genuinely surprised when a wind god shows up. It also has the effect of obscuring the connection between entries of Touhou Bougetsushou, which may have affected their reputation - compare Japanese sites, which often ignore the English bits completely and just refer to SSiB, CiLR and IotM&IotE as Touhou Bougetsushou (manga), Touhou Bougetsushou (novella) and Touhou Bougetsushou (4koma).
I'd argue that since the current methods result in English fans having a different experience from Japanese ones, they're not a complete success as a translation. Given that the recent Playism release of DDC uses "TH14: Double Dealing Character" as a localised title, I suggest taking this format and adding the Japanese portion back in as a subtitle. That is, instead of:

  • Touhou Fuujinroku ~ Mountain of Faith (東方風神録 ~ Mountain of Faith, lit. "Eastern Wind God Chronicles")
  • Touhou Shinreibyou ~ Ten Desires (東方神霊廟 ~ Ten Desires, lit. "Eastern Divine Spirit Mausoleum")
  • Touhou Bougetsushou ~ Silent Sinner in Blue (東方儚月抄 ~ Silent Sinner in Blue, lit. "Ephemeral Moon Vignette from the East")

we'd have

  • TH10: Mountain of Faith ~ Wind God Chronicles (東方風神録 ~ Mountain of Faith Touhou Fuujinroku ~ Mountain of Faith)
  • TH13: Ten Desires ~ The Mausoleum of Divine Spirits (東方神霊廟 ~ Ten Desires Touhou Shinreibyou ~ Ten Desires)
  • Touhou: Silent Sinner in Blue ~ An Ephemeral Moon Vignette (東方儚月抄 ~ Silent Sinner in Blue Touhou Bougetsushou ~ Silent Sinner in Blue)

This kind of inversion is far from unusual in game titles, what with the differences in word order between Japanese and English - e.g. Battle Network Rockman EXE becoming Megaman Battle Network. Opinions? --Prime32 (talk) 15:40, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

In that case, why not just say Touhou Wind God Chronicles ~ Mountain of Faith (東方風神録 ~ Mountain of Faith Touhou Fuujinroku ~ Mountain of Faith)? Why does it have to be backwards? And the "TH#:" part isn't even in the original title. Are we trying to translate or localize? Ps (talk) 16:02, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
The way that we have it now appears to be better to me. We have a logical progression from the romanization of the Japanese characters (which is what an Eastern user might type in if they have their automatic transliteration (is that the right word?) turned off and/or are using a Western device that they do not normally use), to the actual title in a Japanese character set, to the translation of the Japanese characters. Granted, when I was first exposed to Touhou I assumed that the phrase after the tilde was the translation of the Japanese characters, but the third area takes care of that confusion. Adding the number of the game with a colon (or worse, simply adding "Touhou:") to the beginning of the title in bold makes it appear like the number is a part of the title. Code Slasher (talk) 23:56, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with altering the existing transliteration at all. It's simply removing information and/or making it confusing as to what part of the japanese title matches with the translation. I also disagree with ZUN's decision to use "Touhou 14", but in a practical sense it's definitely easier and more identifiable to a western audience to write "Touhou 14" than "Touhou Kishinjou" and he probably couldn't think of anything better. Moreover it points out to newcomers that it's indeed the 14th game and there are others before it.
In any case, why not just use rubytext to explain meaning rather than have it off to the side? I would argue this is nondestructive and the least confusing, explains the meaning of the titles (and points directly to what's being translated), while still preserving the title structure. Plus, it's very ZUN-like to do it this way :P

  • Touhou Fuujinroku (Wind God Chronicles) ~ Mountain of Faith (東方風神録 ~ Mountain of Faith)
  • Touhou Shinreibyou (Divine Spirit Mausoleum) ~ Ten Desires (東方神霊廟 ~ Ten Desires)
  • Touhou Bougetsushou (Ephemeral Moon Vignette) ~ Silent Sinner in Blue (東方儚月抄 ~ Silent Sinner in Blue)

I also opted not to include "Touhou" -> "Eastern"/"of the East"/etc because 1) it's always awkward to cram that in, 2) using different "eastern" terms across titles is confusing, and 3) japanese fans always leave out 東方 when listing off titles in conversation anyways (because they acknowledge how redundant it gets).
Additionally, if this would be the way to do things, I would suggest not altering the word order in the translation; i.e. 神霊廟 -> "Divine Spirit Mausoleum" instead of "Mausoleum of Divine Spirits", and 輝針城 -> "Shining Needle Castle" instead of "Castle of Shining Needles". Again, this is minimally confusing and adheres to how rubytext is used.
- Drake Irving (talk) 03:17, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like a decent approach. Pointing directly to what's being translated seems like a big bonus to me - the (lit. "translation") section of the titles can be a bit head-scratching if you think the English title is the translation. I also agree on not translating "Touhou", since that makes it easy to misread the translation of "Touhou X" as "Touhou X of the East".
I'm strongly against "Touhou Wind God Chronicles ~ Mountain of Faith", since then you'd expect "Touhou Wind God Chronicles" to be the actual title of the page that people search for, and there's no way to keep the translation consistent with other sources or over time. --Prime32 (talk) 21:49, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
I prefer the way it is now. Even though the experience is different among the Japanese (and Chinese and Korean) and English (and French, etc) fanbases, both fanbases use shorthand, albeit different. For the eastern languages, the main title is retained and the subtitle discarded. For western, the reverse is true. If the Western fanbase has the potential to misunderstand the main title, then it is arguable that the Eastern fanbase may misunderstand the subtitle.
That said, Drake's suggestion of using rubytext is a fair compromise I'd be willing to accept. - Kiefmaster99 (talk) 23:49, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
I think we should keep the beginning "Touhou" part of the title. Redundant or not, it is still present, and I have seen plenty of Western pages that say things like "Touhou Fuujinroku". Code Slasher (talk) 16:48, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Can you elaborate on what you mean by that? None of the current suggestions want to discard "Touhou" from the title; if you're talking about mine, I was arguing for rubytext only covering Fuujinroku (Wind God Chronicles) rather than having something like Touhou Fuujinroku (Eastern Wind God Chronicles) . Drake Irving (talk) 01:46, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Basically, I want what you want (I think?), which is something like "TouhouFuujinroku (Wind God Chronicles) ". Code Slasher (talk) 17:20, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
To put it simple, I also like the idea of using ruby; it basically says what the romaji of the title is right above. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 21:00, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Thought I say something as this seemed to died out for some reason. I'm thinking on implementing this later on, unless anyone's got other opinions? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 23:01, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I see no reason to change it when the current one seems perfectly fine. I think using ruby clutters the text a bit too much, as well as being inconsistent with how we usually handle romaji/translation. ☢ Quwanti 23:29, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
I really like the idea of using the ruby text. It also has the ability to clear potential confusion as mentioned it Prime32's post. It is non-intrusive and intuitive. --DTM (talk) 23:58, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
As a reminder, this would only be done with the game titles on the intro line of their main pages. The only significant reason it's inconsistent is to highlight the way the game titles are written, with the three kanji, and to actually point at what's being translated there. In most cases just having (lit. "bagels") is enough, but not really for this purpose. There might be other instances in which this method is better, too. Anyways, since I was the one to suggest this, I suppose I should put in some work actually changing stuff. Drake Irving (talk) 06:19, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Wouldn't the biggest contributor to the confusion be the fact that on the right the English subtitle is under the Japanese title? Either way, that should definitely change as well.

I'd also like to take this oppertunity to change the way this works for music album translations. I think it's a bit odd to refer to the album as the translated title. I'd personally rather see the romanized title listed first. ☢ Quwanti 07:08, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I think that is a different situation entirely. I for one refer to my Touhou albums by their translated names, not by their romanji. I think others in the fandom do this as well. Code Slasher (talk) 04:34, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
If I could add about the page names for all the music albums, that is a rather big issue. Some uses full English translations, some uses romaji and some keep the original Japanese. It will be heavy work if a conclusion was made to only use one standard. Also, I prefer translated names, and romaji only if there isn't a translation for it. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 15:36, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Not talking about the page names, only the first sentence of the articles. Translations may not always be reliable, as well as different opinions on how translations are done. I also personally prefer to be a bit close to wikipedia, which rarely uses translations if the original title is Japanese. ☢ Quwanti 16:33, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Ah, I knew what you meant, I just thought I'd throw that comment in because, let's face it, it's not entirely organised. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 01:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Coming back to this, I tried creating a new version of the template for music CDs which adds a space for an optional Template:Thtitle entry - if you include it, then it will override the way the CD title is displayed to match the game and manga pages (if you don't then it will continue to use the current format, so it won't break any existing pages). I also modified the infobox to include both the original title and a translation (rather than the translation replacing the original), for consistency with the infoboxes on other pages.
Compare the original and the altered version. The page title would still be "Scarlet Weather Rhapsody OST", the name "Scarlet Weather Rhapsody" still appears, and the game page is linked to prevent confusion.
I don't think there's really a need to enforce the ruby format on doujins (which have more varied titles anyway), but I think official media should stick to it. Prime32 (talk) 20:03, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Proposal - Change in CSS wich makes bold and colored the Stewards/Bureaucrats/Sysops in Recent Changes

Hello everyone,

In begginings, sorry for my poor English, i'm brazillian, and my english is the basic of the basic

But i came here today to purpose two simple addictions in Common.css wich make the names of Sysops (read as Administrators), Bureaucrats and Stewards (or any other user wich be added on the list) bold and with an predefined color

The code, I have get form Desciclopedia and have tested in Portuguese Touhou Wiki, and if the option Group changes by page in recent changes and watchlist is unabled in Special:Preferences he works normally, else it did'nt have effect.

I'm letting down the screenshots with the change in Common.css and the effect Recent Changes

Print Common.png Print Recentchanges.png


Hibiki Discussão (pt) 12:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


I think is necessary to add the in-game sprites of all characters and maybe their respective spell card background for their biographies, in Kanako's a Eiki's case is a very important trait. I don't know how to do that but maybe even as gif images. Sorry for my english Virus bass 8:09 pm, Today (UTC+2)

It wouldn't hurt to add a "danmaku and spell cards" section for the characters, explaining what their danmaku characteristics are and hat kind of danmaku it is, with indeed an example image to the right. ☢ Quwanti 19:50, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
These things might get a little "cluttery" though, so I would suggest putting these sections at the bottom if we are to have them at all. Code Slasher (talk) 04:37, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
I like to see more sprites and spell card background images uploaded. True that it may cause clutter, but they are still valid images that can be put onto the wiki. With sprite images, since they're really small, they can be put under the appearance section rather than the gallery (See Ran Yakumo with her Th08 image to what I mean). Focus on sprites for now, and we'll get to the background images later on. Also, don't use .gif. On most cases, using .png has better compression if saved through a program that can compress it (such as Adobe Photoshop). Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 15:46, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
For the clutter, remember that Template:Hidden is an useful tool here. It's the one we use for the spell cards and the omake.txt MapleTree (talk) 23:01, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Ending images

It seems like this needs discussing. Although personally, despite ZUN's comments, I can't see a reason why ending images aren't allowed. We've got tonnes of written content scattered everywhere that come from endings, so why not images? Even then, it's not like they contain spoilers, they're only showing visual information of a character/location and not the ending dialogue itself, and the ending images I've uploaded are from 10 years ago.

That's my personal reason on uploading those images. I've looked at the guidelines, and I found this: "Spoilers should only be used to conceal information regarding game endings for a period of one year after the game's release. After that, they should be removed." I'm not sure if this refers to just written content. I had no intentions of uploading ending images from recent games because of this rule. I'd also like to note that we've also had this and this from the PC-98 for over 4 years, where those too only show visual content of those creatures. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 23:17, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

異界 = Spirit World?

Regarding this kanji, I had talked to zh editors and they agreed that en editors may wrongly translate this word. Why? Because 異界 can be mean "Different World" of "Another World" instead of "Spirit World", as hinted via Hecatia, who is the Earth, Moon and "Another World"'s Hell Goddess. Anyone agree that this translate should be fixed? - KyoriAsh (talk) 15:11, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree, calling it "Spirit World" implies that it necessarily has something to do with "spirits" when that isn't the case. The kanji does basically mean "different" or perhaps "unusual", but that being said, unless it's expanded upon in the future calling it Different World or Another World sounds like it could mess with casual instances of saying things like "another world", which seems like it would be plentiful in Touhou. Some seem to use "Otherworld", which I think seems like an okay solution. There's also the underwhelming yet generic option of leaving it just as Ikai as we have with Makai, Hokkai and Senkai. That being said, "ちなみに夢の世界は異界に相当する" should mean "by the way, the Dream World is equivalent to 異界" (which is why having the Dream World mentioned everywhere and having a crossing to the Lunar Capital makes any sense whatsoever), so whichever term we use should link to the same place. Drake Irving (talk) 04:58, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Front Page Redesign

So I saw in the archives of this talk page that user Darkslime proposed a redesign of the front page. I really like the design and was saddened to see conversation about it dead. I decided to take Darkslime's proposal and modify it a bit to keep it up to date. It is located at User:DTM/Frontpage and I would really like to see some input and maybe even have it implemented. Thanks for the consideration. --DTM (talk) 22:47, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

It actually looks pretty cool and attractive, I'm up to it, something new is always welcome ^^. You should add in Print Works, something like Magazines and then below it the new magazine. Aside from that, it's pretty well made.--Camilo113 (talk) 22:58, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the compliments (even though Darkslime was the one who made it, I just changed a couple of things)! And yeah, I will take your suggestion and add the new magazine (completely forgot about that one). Once again, thanks for the input. --DTM (talk) 23:14, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
If the boxes for Games, Music, and Print works as well as the entire right-most column had their height changed so they'd be aligned at the bottom, I think it'd look even metter. Or maybe that's just my OCD. It just irks me either way. --Wymar(⑨⑨) 23:27, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, it irks me too (although the current home page also has this problem). Unfortunately, I don't exactly know how to align them, especially since the rightmost column is bound to change in height as the News Template gets updated. --DTM (talk) 00:52, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Can I suggest breaking up the in-universe and out-of-universe sections of the Encyclopedia more clearly? Maybe have all the in-universe stuff on one row with yin-yang symbols, and the out-of-universe stuff on another with little pictures of the Tokyo Big Sight or something.
On a semi-related note, I notice that the Characters link in the left bar goes to Category:Characters rather than Characters, which is inconsistent with the front page (both versions). Prime32 (talk) 02:21, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Currently, in-universe stuff is on the top row and out-of-universe is on the bottom. I've tried searching for a transparent icon of Tokyo Big Sight but couldn't find any. If I missed a picture, I would be happy to take a look. Also, the left bar is separate from this front page so that needs to be fixed on the sidebar page. I already addressed it in it's Talk Page so hopefully that will get rectified soon. --DTM (talk) 03:16, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Actually, I like Darkslime's original design. Code Slasher (talk) 04:31, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

The/A/[blank] [song title]

This is driving me nuts. We seem to have all three of these scattered throughout the wiki. Should this be a user discretion thing, or should we standardize something? I for one have been changing through the list in order to improve the flow of a particular song title, but I would really like some other users' inputs on this. Code Slasher (talk) 06:14, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

I know this is a difficult topic, but does anyone have an opinion on this? Code Slasher (talk) 03:04, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
I'd love to at least give an opinion but I honestly don't know what your talking about, can you explain please? Ycdtosa (talk) 03:17, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
For example, we have The Road of the Misfortune God ~ Dark Road. Why did we not use A Road of the Misfortune God ~ Dark Road or Road of the Misfortune God ~ Dark Road? In addition, we have Eternal Short-Lived Reign (like Eternal Shrine Maiden). Why did we not use The Eternal Short-Lived Reign (like The Eternal Steam Engine) or An Eternal Short-Lived Reign (like An Eternity That Is More Transient than Scarlet)? Code Slasher (talk) 01:22, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Re-locating official profiles

I would like to propose that we should move the contents under 'official profile' on each character page somewhere else. There are two reasons I propose this: they expand some characters article to unnecessary sizes regarding file size, or maybe even page length, for e.g. Marisa Kirisame; and the purpose of the wiki articles in the first place was to have encyclopaedic content written by fans, meaning that 'official profiles' are redundant, because the pages are basically one-big profile for each character. I'm not suggesting to remove them altogether, I thought on having something similar to the fandom pages, or even the List of Spell Cards. If these pages were to be created, maybe they could also show their statistics in-game, such as the ones with PoDD. Are there any opinions regarding this? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 23:11, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Personally, i think it'd look neat to move all the omake's to a subpage of their respective game, for example moving Rumia's, Cirno's, Meiling's etc. to a subpage for EoSD, move Cirno's PCB omake to a PCB subpage, the Hisoutensoku one to a Hisoutensoku page, etc. I don't know about which specific page (/Characters, /Translation, or a brand-new one; personaly i'd like to have a subpage for /Translation like the PC-98 games, but i want others to say their opinion). Please remember to use #lsth. Also, aren't the in-game statistics already filled under /Translation? MapleTree (talk) 00:20, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
I am with MapleTree on this one. If we are going to move the profiles at all, I would rather see them go as links in the "/Characters" areas than anywhere else. Also, I found the "statistics" that MapleTree is referring to. It looks like they would be more useful where they are at than anywhere else. Code Slasher (talk) 03:01, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
I disagree. Aren't character pages meant to contain all canonical, useful information relevant to each character, especially considering most characters don't have their backstories explained?
I am Risa. Best of fortune be with you. (talk) 04:57, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
I disagree as well, but if we have to move the profiles, then what I suggested seems to be the best option in my opinion. Code Slasher (talk) 08:04, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
'/Characters' does seem like the most reasonable place to put the official profiles. So if we're going to have them moved there, then how shall it be laid out? I have a very rough idea, but I'm not sure how I could wiki-code it. To answer Risa's comment, The pages should always contain canonical info, and if suspicious info ever comes up that may (or may not) seem like fandom content, then it should be cited for prove. Hence why I see official profiles as redundant. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 22:31, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
I preffer the way it is now for all the character images in each game to be avaliable with each character profile, but if a change must be made I suggest to be in the same way as the spell card pages divided for generation and other works, consider that some print work characters have profiles like the ones from the touhou bougetsushou and ibarakasen page, aaaaaand some character profiles from the Eastern and Little Nature Deity and Curiosities of Lotus Asia preview can be added as wellVirus bass (talk) 03:18, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
There is still the question of character origin. Removing the official profiles can make the characters obscure, and their origin lost to most people that expect to find such things in character pages. I think moving the profiles is needlessly complicating things.
I am Risa. Best of fortune be with you. (talk) 08:03, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure what you mean with the 'origin'. Shouldn't the Background Info section cover that regarding inspiration of the character, with 'Backstory' describing the history of the character (e.g. Mokou)? How will moving profiles make the characters obscure? I don't see doing this being a complication, it just needs sorting out where to place the profiles. Also, we can use links to the official profiles, like the fandom sections, so people can still find the profiles and understand where they've been located to. In fact, we could instead make use of the 'Official Sources' section, and have the profiles linked from there. I'm now really into having them located at the '/Characters' sub-pages rather than having them listed like spell cards. Also, we should really have '/Characters' for print work pages (e.g. SSiB, FS, etc.), and maybe the profiles regarding the print works could be put in these sub-pages as well. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 13:44, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
It seems many characters do not have a backstory section, but the profiles do offer an explanation for them. I still think making a separate page, even if it's a subpage is more complicated than it needs to be. You do expect to find everything relevant in one place here.:/
I am Risa. Best of fortune be with you. (talk) 14:05, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Ahah, I see ^^'. Backstory sections, I can't really say anything about them if they don't exist on a character's page. Some profiles may do tell a character's backstory, but according to the guidelines of the wiki, any information relevant to specific section (in this case, Backstory), then it should be written there, or in other words, re-write what the profiles say about their backstory. To say things further, the 'Official Sources' section would be a place readers can look at to find info they know is true, thus allowing them to add this info to the character's page. I don't mean to be making things complicated if it seems like that; I'm trying my best to make things simple, with this proposal being a simple one. Either way, I've made a rough edit on my sandbox to see what it could look like. Feel free to edit the page, as well as making more suggestions. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 23:32, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
I don't think moving the profiles to another page is necessary; if we want our wiki to be encyclopedic, the profiles, like any other reference material, should be on the character pages for the sake of thoroughness.
Regardless, I do like what Tony has done with his page; adding the profiles to the /Character sub-pages would be a nice addition (which I felt were sort of plain to begin with). Thus, I would suggest creating a Profiles page similar to List of Spell Cards; through transclusion we could have the profiles appear on both the character page and the game/character sub-page and reduce the amount of wiki-markup in both pages. Ibaraki Ibuki (talk) 18:35, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
If the problem is that the profiles make the page too big, then just do what other wikis do when their character pages get too big. Here's an example:
Note the menu page at the top of the Luffy character page. Luffy, being the main character of one piece, has a page so big that they simply broke his page up into multiple pages, with one being for his backstory, another for his gallery, and another for his personality and abilities, etc. Meanwhile, minor characters who don't have pages nearly as big as Luffy's have all their information on just one page because there isn't enough to justify breaking it up into separate pages.
Personally I think moving the official profiles will just confuse people and make it harder to check on confirmed canon facts of a character. No matter how careful a wiki editor is, any summary of a character's profile is still just a paraphrase and it's a lot easier to get what ZUN truly intended for the character by having the profiles in an easily accessable place. When people go to a character's page, they presumably do so for information about the character, and ZUN's profiles tend to be one of the most informative aspects about them (much more informative than what goes on in the games a lot of the time, and without the unreliable narrator bias that the various print works purposefully have).TiamatRoar (talk) 01:35, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Replying to the parent because the threaded replies are getting long and confusing. First, I disagree with is the notion that pages are getting too large, with the exception of Reimu and Marisa. They're really the only two I see a huge problem with. Personally I would sooner split them up and create separate Reimu and Marisa PC-98 articles, but I know there would be opposition to that. But I don't think it's a problem doing what you've said if the articles are consistent and well-written with, as you said, proper references and citations. Though some pages leave a bit to be desired on all those fronts so we would definitely have to go through them all and ratchet them up, which I would think consists of looking at doing a revised recommended character outline first.
If they're to be included on Game/Characters pages, we could merge the "character short" and profile templates so that they're displayed as a short version, similar to how they are now, and with one click it can open up and display the expanded information. I know you did something similar, but as one whole, clean template, with with image included (like as three sections, image and basic info on the top, which drops down with full JP descrption on the left, EN on the right).
Lastly, maybe I'm overestimating ours or wiki's ability to do so, but maybe an alternative would be to create a separate template for each character profile. That way we could include profiles in pages, character articles or otherwise, as a template link with all the text housed elsewhere. Again, I know next to nothing about wiki code or if this is doable or even smart to do. That also doesn't account for those short manga or side game profiles that wouldn't need it, but we could just do main game ones, anyway. UTW 08:24, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
It is doable, but really isn't necessary. That would just complicate things. I personally don't really see a problem in moving the character profiles complication things by not having such information on the character page. There is a reason there is a subsection called "Official sources", where we can place the link. I mean, none of the printwork profiles are on the character pages, so what's so different about game profiles. I like Tony's redesign of the subpage. ☢ Quwanti 11:00, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Well, whatever you do, do NOT make extra tabs for each character. That would bring us far too close to being like... oy... Wikia. Code Slasher (talk) 01:08, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
I apologise for such as late reply. I can see that this issue mostly relates to Reimu/Marisa pages, although personally I weren't too sure if a standardisation would have to include all official profiles. I still personally think the profiles shouldn't belong on the pages as stated in my previous comments, but if this isn't actually necessary, than that's fine, I can work with that. What Code Slasher previously said is actually the core reason why I created this discussion to see what design could be used instead of the common wikia one. I've been working on Reimu's article for quite some time now to fill in any missing info (and trust me, it's a much bigger page), but I haven't been working on it recently since I'm very busy with uni ATM. I've seen multiple suggestions on how the official profiles ought to be structured, and honestly I'm quite lost on which one can be best. I'll let you lot decide on what's the best route (I like all of them), and I'll appreciate your work.
I can also see most of you like what I did in my sandpit. Again, I appreciate it if someone else could go through each character subpage and change them to something similar to the one in my sandpit. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 22:12, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps this extension may solve those needs, similar to what it used in KanColle Wiki - KyoriAsh (talk) 08:59, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Wiki 504 error

Hello all,
for about the past 2 weeks, the wiki has been very unresponsive for me, and I keep getting 504 Gateway Timeout Errors while making edits. It's becoming very bothersome.
Is it just happening to me, or are you aware of this problem?
Hope you can do something about it.
Regards, --Splashman (blub) (talk) 19:54, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

It also happens to me each time i save a page after an edit. The page gets saved, but then i get the error for some time, becoming unable to connect for a while.PK (talk) 20:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Exactly. At least it's a comfort to see that the edits get saved, but the constant timeouts are getting annoying.--Splashman (blub) (talk) 20:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
I've been having this problem for months, like 3 or 2, it's really bothersome, but I got used to it, I thought it was just me, but it seems it happens to other people aswell, I really hope there is a solution. --Camilo113 (talk) 21:55, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
I think the staff tried to solve this by adding more processing power, but it looks like it did not solve the problem. This seems to happen if one is editing a page/section with a lot of text. Code Slasher (talk) 02:45, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Confirming the issue. I can't work any more on the Defense of the shrines pages due to this. When I edit something or try to visit a page > 504. When I try to upload an image for the girls as a hero avatar I get 502. Now 4 of the images are perma leading to 502 errors. (Koishi, Wriggle, Momiji and Marisa). --Helepolis (talk) 17:13, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I've been getting this as well. I've yet to have any edits not go through, but I've been copy-pasting to an instance of notepad before submitting, just to be sure. Tsuukasa5 (talk) 17:29, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Further confirming that I also get this issue whenever I edit. After clicking save or uploading an image, the 504 error will occur, although the image/page will be saved. But, it's slow on refreshing the wiki pages. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 23:12, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Tweaked some settings with PHP; we'll see how this goes for the time being. If it starts clogging up after awhile again I might have to look into a different PHP setup. Mamizou (talk) 03:14, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I can access the said images before. Takes me to the file history page as expected. I can also add the catagory to them so that seems to work fine. However, the upload page on left hand navigation still takes me to, but I guess that is a different talk topic. So far seems good with the 504/502 issues being gone. --Helepolis (talk) 08:11, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
It should; Onsen is the new unified file repository I'm trying to pull together but it takes more energy to finish than I can muster in the span of a weekend. Mamizou (talk) 08:59, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
So I heard from people on IRC. Except uploaded images end up in "The void". They are inaccessible from the 'en' subdomain. But reading your reply probably indicates why. So I manually now just edit the subdomain. No big deal but the first time it was huge confusion. --Helepolis (talk) 09:31, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
There are database tables that track the files available on a wiki; part of the process is populating all of that on Onsen and then forcing all of the other wikis to Onsen's file tables instead of their own. The site already uses a singular repository for the files, but it's the database config that's the issue. I got it to work on a smaller wiki, but it's quite a bit more tricky to do so here considering the size and age of the site. And most of my mental energy is spent doing computer work during the week, so my energy to do more computer work is exhausted by the weekend.
In the end, it should result in a much better organized wiki farm configuration; everything won't be tied around the English wiki. It's the final remnant from Wikia. Mamizou (talk) 16:40, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
(Am I doing this right? Sorry, I'm not so good at the whole formatting thing.) The wiki still seems to be having this issue. Are we going to switch formats? It's a shame to see this one go, alas. Hang in there, Mamizou! Chenkari (talk) 12:26, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Translation review template?

Basically, this is an idea that came to me when looking at some less-than-perfect translation edits. As per the title, the template would mark pages for review, as well as putting them into an appropriate category. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arcorann (talkcontribs) 12:52, 29 February 2016‎ (UTC)

I don't know how it could be specifically implemented but it sounds like a good idea, better coordination would get the wiki better translations I think. The real question to me is how we know what will qualify for the category and when pages should be removed from the review category. It's my understanding that allot of translating comes down to interpretation so the category could just get bogged down in already up to par translations in theory. I like the idea and I think any basic system with clear guidelines for when to remove pages from the category would help. Ycdtosa (talk) 22:57, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Japanese album names

I think that's a problem. Most people can't read it, and every time when I want to check an album from circle page or from the template on the bottom of the page, I must click on it just to read romaji or English translated name. The thing is, all the translated data is already stored on wiki. Is it possible to implement some semantic engine on this wiki, so it could automatically download English/romaji names from album page to DiscographyItem template on circle page? Is it even possible? Any better ideas? --Unknwn (talk) 17:02, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

It could be possible with a bot, though I don't think there are any active ones now. I'd recommend using the romaji titles then, because the English translation are unofficial and might be wrong. ☢ Quwanti 22:18, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
There are a little over 600 arrangement CD navbox pages and a little under 300 arrangement circle pages so short of getting a bot to do the edits 3 or 4 good editors could probably get in done if they spent a couple hours coordinating on different pages. Personally I don't see the need to do it though, like Quwanti already pointed out using the English titles would be unofficial so the best your looking at is the romaji titles, I have to wonder what the point is in that case since most people still can't read it. I guess the best argument aside from "It's the English wiki" for it would be that it makes navigating navboxs like this one a little easier, that being said if we are casting votes I vote no for navboxs but am fine with English translations appearing along with original album titles for circle pages. Ycdtosa (talk) 03:38, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

"Original title" template

I'd like to use this system in another language wiki, but I cant find anywhere how does it work. I mean mouseover text of any Japanese title on the music album pages shows English name, but I can't find where is this title written, not in the page source, nor in the templates. Could you give me a hint? -Unknwn (talk) 14:30, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

It is taken from here. ☢ Quwanti 14:51, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you. I was expecting something like that. Now it's time to see why it does not work on our side. -Unknwn (talk) 14:55, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Woops, totally forgot one part. This here is also important. ☢ Quwanti 15:38, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Artists aliases suggestion

Can this whole script thing work with artist names? We got a lot of artist names written in japanese on album pages, and they often recurrent. It takes some time to check alias on vgmdb of every unknown lettering. I can remember that 凛 is "Rin" but for 篠螺悠那 – ughhh. It could be a great improvement of the whole album section. --Unknwn (talk) 02:59, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

If you can't do it with the script or if the work is too delicate to be done through the script then you can add the hover text with Template:H:title. If an artist's name is translated on the circle page I usually don't worry about having it translated on every album because of clutter, but with hover text that wouldn't be an issue. Ycdtosa (talk) 04:49, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Don't know if you still want to go through with it but here's a testcase of an easy way to use that template I mentioned earlier, the floating text is not only good for translations but can be used for aliases too. Editors are already supposed to use the lang template for Japanese names so just having a template for each Japanese name isn't much more work for allot more customization and would be very easy to change over to with a bot. Ycdtosa (talk) 04:21, 3 August 2016 (UTC)


Turn on Forwarding flag here with Lenen Wiki, please. Or is it already working somehow?

Lenen:ru:JynX. Still, links like thwiki:ru:JynX don't working on Len'en Wiki. --Unknwn (talk) 08:07, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Your interwiki linking worked; they'll have to set up their own interwiki linking back to Touhou Wiki, if they haven't done it already. Mamizou (talk) 17:50, 10 July 2016 (UTC)