Talk:Touhou Wiki/Archive 9

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Social network (Twitter/Facebook)

I almost hate to say it, but it's a useful medium and resource that we aren't exploiting and is an(other) advantage we have over that other wiki. http://twitter.com/touhouwiki is being attributed to us, but isn't being used at all right now. Does no one have any idea who owns it? I've found I quite like Twitter and would be totally willing to put in the work if we can get it. UTW 16:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I see they have a Twitter. And a Facebook. Which I guess we also have, but again aren't using. That's one thing they're doing better, and that sucks. Of course, this is just coincidental. My decision to bring this up has to do with other things we can do and what's best for us. UTW 16:59, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
You mean what am I doing on twitter such as this, this, this and this? Meanwhile, our arch rival wiki already have a good start with twitter, however we don't. - KyoriAsh 17:12, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm new to it all, so I wasn't aware, so don't think it's not appreciated. Acquiring and using that TouhouWiki Twitter as a hub would go a long way, though. And there's no time like the present to try and make a dent. I don't know about daily songs and junk like they're doing, since who has the time for that, but we could at least make announcements and direct everyone toward articles here, much like you're already doing. UTW 17:28, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I can do this. Do any of you know of a good desktop client that allows you to use multiple (4+) accounts at once ? Master Bigode 18:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Try here or here or here. I can't say I know anything about them. UTW 22:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
So has anything been done yet? --Coyc 12:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Since whoever owns the Twitter hasn't noticed and you can't send Direct Messages unless they're following you, nothing. Only option seems to be making a new one. U❊T❊W 02:12, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Maybe "Touhouwiki.net"? Other then that, maybe multiple people should be able to add some messages, so it doesn't die out. ☢ Quwanti 02:21, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Twitter support "." in account name? - KyoriAsh 02:22, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Guess it does not. Then it could be "Touhouwiki_net". (it does support "_", right? ☢ Quwanti 02:39, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I admit my enthusiasm has tempered somewhat, so an account multiple people can have access to is smartest. I was thinking touhouwikidotnet, but that's too long. touhouwikinet fits though. U❊T❊W 02:42, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
So who gonna share password? - KyoriAsh 02:47, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Does touhouwiki has an emial (like info@touhouwiki.net or something). So the registered e-mail address is not from someone else. ☢ Quwanti 02:49, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Meanwhile, Facebook already have a number of community in it, so it is nice to join them and advertise touhouwiki - KyoriAsh 02:47, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Glad to see that you go there (it's a great Facebook page!) I don't know if people there are aware of our wiki (since I rarely see them post comments about us or the old wiki), but seems like some of them are. I've been looking up Facebook to see if there was any Touhou wiki page - there seems to be the one that's already mentioned above, but there's only like 18 people there and it seems dead. If only we were to use some sort of blog, just like those doujin groups... --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 03:04, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Speaking of which, it's high time we got a facebook page of our own and here it is!.
Now that it's made, I ask the community of the following.
We need...
  • Editor who can accurately represent Touhou Wiki
  • Has a very firm grasp of the inner workings of Touhou Wiki (History, Mission, etc)
  • Is an Admin on Touhouwiki.net (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED)
  • Is able to get the project off the ground (hard start, then soft continuity)
  • Has time to do so.
If people are interested, please sign here, and Admin KyoriAsh (Current manager of FB page) will hook you up!
Also, this goes without saying, if you do have a FB, please add TouhouWiki as a place you've worked at and give it a like!
Thanks guys!

♥★♦ 17:13, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Very long News section

Lately, the News section has been gradually getting bigger and bigger. Now it's pretty ridiculous. The problem though is that it pushes the other important index links (Encyclopedia, Other Articles, Articles Needing Attention) further down the page hurting front page functionality. Something needs to be done to shorten the News section on the front page. Some possible solutions have been suggested.

1. Keep a short list on the front page, "Show more" goes to a different page with all the links.
2. Expandable "Show/Hide" on front page.
3. Trim non-important items completely.

Options 1 and 2 will keep all news items but will require additional coding to be done to support it. Option 3 requires none, but will affect the quality of the news section. How should be contract the News section? - Kiefmaster99 03:48, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I like the Show/Hide idea best. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 03:51, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Out of these three options, I prefer option 1 (with option 2 as the next best alternative). Ibaraki Ibuki 04:47, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Show/Hide has been implemented; criteria being date. - Kiefmaster99 17:13, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Mediawiki 1.18

Lately, Wikipedia suffered from this problem, so might well as we stay at 1.17? However, FR wiki already updated to 1.18 and may suffered the same problem as well - KyoriAsh 06:22, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

So we'll bide our time until they get that addressed, hmm?

♥★♦ 18:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Reference Desk

Touhou Wiki:Reference Desk‎

This is getting nuked because of the current policy of you must register to edit.

However, I bring up that allowing the anons who do not wish to to have the privilege to just edit that page and nothing else to allow this as an option.

Worst case is that one page it zapped with stuff and we take it down.

Best case it is a useful reservoir and we give the anons a voice.

You decide.

Update: Here is why we need this

  • The argument could be made that an infestation of attacks could be made if we allow this. However, the stipulation are that they only have the rights and privileges to edit that single page. Thus is is easily contained should something happen.
  • This may also have these anons register in the future as they would like to be part of what happens.
  • This shows we support and value the opinions of the anon and makes our wiki more attractive

♥★♦ 20:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

What does mandatory registration have to do with whether to keep the Reference Desk? It wasn't just anons posting questions there. --Winane 09:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Well yes, it has been moved to the Editor Corner's page for editor's that have questions. I want to salvage this one (Reference Desk) for the anons to post, as this seems more fitting for it ♥★♦ 01:49, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Theories Section

(I posted this here cause it won't just be aimed at the characters pages). Anyway, due to Sakuya's page, as well as Maribel's page, I thought we should create a "Theories" section on some pages, and as to my taste, it doesn't really fit well under the Fandom section with large paragraphs bulleted. As for examples, I've made an edit on the standardization page to show the layout as well as setting it out on my sandbox on how it would look on the pages. As for a main summary, this will be used, similar to Template:Bougetsushou. Would it be OK to implement this? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 19:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, I still need to write some sort of guideline to this to stop users from adding unwanted theories. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 19:31, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps the guideline is that the theories should have a degree of significance in relation to the character. Right now, I actually cannot think of any character that would actually have any theories of great significance except for Sakuya, Maribel, and (only maybe) Alice. Any others should be heavily scrutinized. In other words, I think that the best guideline is that for now, this section can be okay only for Sakuya, Maribel, and Alice's pages unless a very good reason comes up for some other character.--Tosiaki 19:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Maybe theories sections should only be allowed for characters where ZUN specifically indicated there's an actual secret of significance to be found. Mainly Sakuya (Where ZUN has explicitly stated she DOES have a background, etc. He just isn't telling anyone what it is, and has stated that whole "Eirin is surprised" and "more can be uncovered in Cage in Lunatic Runagate" (or whatever he said in that interview where he said it)) and Maribel (Where ZUN has explicitly responded to a question about her relationship with Yukari, but left it at it having something to do with Lafcadio Hearn). I'm not sure Alice qualifies because ZUN never explicitly stated there's a secret to be found there. The whole "Alice's background contradicts!" runs under assumptions that just because she was found in Makai, Shinki created her, when ZUN never really stated as such. It also runs under the assumption that the PC-98's finer details should be considered in the Windows series, which again (IMHO at least) is something we really can't assume, given several other possible contradictions (Marisa learning Star Magic after meeting Reimu when the trial version of her boss battle with Reimu in the PC-98 series explicitly states it's their first meeting, and Kurumi being a vampire when Remilia's stated to be the only known vampire to currently exist. Both leave open room for interpretation, as Marisa doesn't state it's their first time meeting in the full official version of the game, nor does Perfect Memento say there were any other vampires in Gensokyo before the only known CURRENT vampire). ....well, it is admittingly a big enough deal with the fandom that maybe it could be included regardless.
...unless you're referring about a theories section for Alice for Dolls in Pseudo Paradise, I guess. But my huge wall of text theory for that has been shrunken down enough to fit where it currently is without needing a section of its own (although if you want to re-add/revamp all that stuff I wrote about it back to it and make it its own section, that's fine with me). Oh, and I guess maybe one for Remilia regarding the Vampire Incident (although IMHO the fact that EVERY non-SDM character with the exception of "I treat everyone the same" Reimu refers to Remilia exclusively as "The Vampire" should make it a reasonably safe assumption that Remilia is "The Vampire" from "The Vampire" incident). I guess whether or not the Lunarians like Lord Tsukoyumi is the same as the original shinto god might qualify too, if only due to that one being a particularly bizarre case. ~ TiamatRoar 20:17, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
*headdesk* And maybe Yukari. ....okay, yea, this is harder than I thought. ~ TiamatRoar 20:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, perhaps to talk about the theories regarding Alice's background could perhaps go in between the "trivia" and the "fandom" sections, if there is ever a need to list things out (since it won't grow to the size of Sakuya's "theories"). As is, perhaps the theories section should therefore be only limited to Sakuya and Maribel - nobody else should have one. It is simply a matter that the two are exceptional, which is why the theories need their own section - for the other characters, it can go elsewhere.--Tosiaki 20:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Yea, that works well enough. Don't want to overcomplicate things, now that I think about it. ~ TiamatRoar 22:41, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

And whatever you can not fit on that page goes in here. ♥★♦ 01:50, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Like Tosiaki said, it should really be as a subsection under Fandom, but I think that should be the case for everyone. However, pages are already long enough and I'd rather not lengthen them even more with a bunch of needless cruft. Furthermore, there's no reason the underused Contemplations section couldn't be used for such things, including in the case of Sakuya. I say we should write a sentence or two to a paragraph about these theories, and link to a separate page under Contemplations. Characters like Sakuya or Maribel with a whole host of lengthy theories can have their own page, while we have another page for miscellaneous character theories for everyone else. UTW 14:16, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

For the case of Sakuya and Maribel, though, the theories are very much directly related to the character as ZUN himself has made comments about them, which is why they need to be on the page - not true for any other character. Sakuya and Maribel do not have a "whole host of theories" - they have exactly the theories that are right now on their pages. Of course, even with those theories, there would be a problem with going too much into speculation on the character pages itself, so for the case of Maribel, I have included everything I thought was important to say under "Is there a relation to Yukari?" section - and left everything else under fandom. I think that this amount is the amount that should be included.--Tosiaki 19:32, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

(This isn't going just as ZUNNED... DX). Anyway, the original plan was to keeping it to what ZUN has officially leaked about certain theories that are very well known (which I mean that even ZUN would certainly know), but to just start with keeping to Sakuya and Maribel having this section (Was hoping it to have gone to other non-character pages, but meh). Also, like I said, it doesn't fit well under the Fandom sectio-n, as well as the Additional Information section, since all of it is bulleted and can make the layout look weird compared to other character pages. That's why I suggested it have it's own h2 section. Anyway, I'll start implementing Sakuya's to see if people do agree. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 21:40, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

On the other hand, though, I do think that it would be a good idea to have a sub-section to talk about the six main theories on how Yuyuko might have killed herself (seppuku ritual suicide, stabbing her chest, cutting her throat, drowning, poison, and hanging herself), but it will not go under a "theories" section. I will get to it eventually.--Tosiaki 09:55, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

The reason why I would say that those suicide theories should be included on the character page rather than contemplations is because there is actually substantial official evidence for all six.--Tosiaki 10:02, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

You have official evidence for all six mutually exclusive theories of suicide? Unless they are all true and Yuyuko is Rasputin, you're being terribly inconsistent. If six different users presented six different theories and each of them believes he is right and the others are wrong, edit wars are inevitable regardless of how much official evidence they have to back up their claims. That's why moving these theories (and not just about Yuyuko, but about any character) to the Contemplations page is a reasonable compromise.
And if you do decide to talk about exactly how Yuyuko died (and to my knowledge the answer appears to be "I don't know"), please mention at least some of these theories are just theories. (And put it under a "Theories" section, pretty please?)
Ibaraki Ibuki 14:42, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
No, these are not just "theories." As Yuyuko is a bourei it is important to talk about them. They are not "six different users" - these are actually the six with substantial official backing, and it is important to talk about what official sources say about her suicide and this would be important to include them, but only official sources. But I guess I mis-spoke. Yes, it will be under a "theories" section, along with theories into two other things: 1. her father, and 2. the cherry blossoms of the Sumizome.--Tosiaki 18:22, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
???
Can you prove where these official six suicides are??? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 18:35, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes, when I get to working on the Yuyuko Saigyouji's page. The fact that most people do not know about the six most officially supported suicide methods is verification of the fact that it really does need to be included on Yuyuko's page.--Tosiaki 18:39, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
But in any case, when I earlier stated that only Sakuya and Maribel should have "theories" sections, I completely forgot about Yuyuko's important theories related to her father, the cherry blossoms of the Sumizome, and her suicide method. These are important things to talk about for Yuyuko, so she should have a "theories" section as well.--Tosiaki 18:44, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I've heard about these six suicides (poison, seppuku, stabbing her chest, as mentioned in my user page), and some of them seem to have some backing, but I never knew there would be official backing for all six methods! I dunno if you mean that ZUN explicitly said "yeah, all six methods are true" or that Yuyuko's method of death is described differently among different official sources (like SSiB, PMiSS, or ZUN's blog, etc.). If it's the latter case then I guess it won't be a problem to include them (yes it might sound inconsistent but there are indeed some inconsistencies within the world of Touhou Project, such as Mystia being eaten by Yuyuko but appearing again in the next game, so we can give it the benefit of the doubt).
Yes indeed we need to include a section about Yuyuko's death as she is a ghost and a part of Yuyuko that some of her fans are unaware of. I was always wondering why it's only described briefly in the fandom section and not appearing in some of the contemplations page. Hopefully Tosiaki can help out with providing the necessary information here. Deathsoul4 19:03, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Touhou Hentai Doujin Works

Hmm... I wanted to ask this for a long time, is there any chance to allow to create this related game articles? I know this type of game can be problematic... But, as a wiki, this type of information should not be ignored... - KyoriAsh 01:51, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why not (well, as a wiki of course). Speaking of which Touhou Hanafuda needs its page too. This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 02:05, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
It seems like it is only that nobody has ever created one before, but that isn't because there is any rule against it - just that nobody has done before. As the purpose of this wiki is to cover anything Touhou-related (both the original and derivative works), it seems like it actually should be covered.--Tosiaki 02:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
If done right, (give the NSFW warnings, things like that) I say why not.
(Hmm, a sample test page would read in big text "Warning, NSFW" and have links that read "Continue" which links to the Hentai page and "Back", which would link back to the Doujin Portal.)

♥★♦ 02:41, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Then a draft of Hentai articles rules should be compiled. Let's see, mostly will have story section, gameplay (Visual novel................) and other stuff... - KyoriAsh 03:24, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
I think that pages created just for the purpose of warnings would not really be appropriate for a wiki that is supposed to be documenting information.--Tosiaki 03:58, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
The user should always be warned about NSFW content. I didn't think I would have to worry about such stuff while browsing this wiki, but if we really are including hentai, we need to tell the user that. Ibaraki Ibuki 04:12, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
In any case, whatever the form the warning is, should not, of course, be a separate page created for it by itself.
Also, although we are not Wikipedia, I think that when it comes to dealing with things like this, we should generally follow what Wikipedia does with censorship, because we are essentially documenting information. Thus, I think it would be best to adopt Wikipedia's Censorship Policy.
Those who do not want to see images on this site can turn off images while browsing this site.--Tosiaki 04:20, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Right now, the most risque pictures we have are, to the best of my knowledge, some of (not-so) Innocent Key's album covers. For album covers, we follow Wikipedia's censorship policy. We could warn users of NSFW content, but not through a blank warning page. If linking from another page, putting (NSFW) beside the link ought to work. - Kiefmaster99 05:27, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

That is what I was suggesting. You are correct, many NSFW pages are redundant and the only way for users to come across these is prior knowledge.

A separate option besides Kief's solution to having NSFW warning next to the link is having a redirect including the pages, then it will link to the Section that contains Hentai, (yes, there should redirect to a general page instead of each having their own NSFW redirect page as that gets redundant again.) I'm not so sure with the acceptance of this option so I'll need others opinions on how to carry such a thing out (if at all) ♥★♦ 01:58, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Non-Touhou albums

Does this wiki also deal with non-Touhou albums? There are arrange groups that have their Touhou albums posted here but I haven't been able to come across any non-Touhou albums so far. If there is none, is that because we only deal with Touhou arrange albums or simply because nobody has worked with creating pages for them yet? --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 18:51, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I guess that it is because it is only about Touhou. It does seem somewhat a shame, though, that the wider information that still might be of interest would not be covered. Does anyone know of a separate site where such information would be covered?--Tosiaki 23:23, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
VGM database might be of your interest then. here's the link.
I brought up this issue since TAMUSIC released a non-Touhou album during the last Comiket along with their Touhou arrange albums. If we've an article covering TAMUSIC's discography, I thought it wouldn't hurt to add their non-Touhou albums as well. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 23:29, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

SOPA?

Just read it from here, not sure what will affect us though... - KyoriAsh 18:03, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

It be naive for us to think that this wouldn't affect us; and I must speak out against the misconceptions behind it.
First off I must say how it does in fact affect us.
Misconceptions:
  • Oh, I don't live in the US, therefore does not affect me/there is nothing I can do
Umm... sad to say this does affect you as this wiki is hosted in Absecon, U.S.A. and most of the internet are hosted on USA sites AND U.S.A. has a great control over the internet. And there are things you can do! Just check it out in the second link I posted.
  • Wait... Isn't this an Anti-Piracy Bill; and isn't Touhou Wiki against piracy?
Yes, Touhou Wiki frowns sternly at piracy, however, the language of the bill states that even a connection with Piracy will shut down the site without due process. This is similar to the Red Scare, if someone declares us a pirater, we get shut down. We do not even get the chance to take the content down; simply put, we get downed.
Oh and this video explains quite simply what SOPA is,everything I explained and more,and how this is detrimental.
SOPA Is Bad
...and this can potentially become "The Great Firewall of America"
Personally, I want us, Touhou Wiki, to bear the censor symbol (found on Americancensorship.org ) on Teacher Alice, and I need the community support on this.
Please guys, we can't be apathetic about this situation, the future of Touhouwiki and the Internet hangs in the balance!

♥★♦ 16:19, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Even Wikimedia and Mozilla also oppose the bill, so that means SOPA has deep impact to us - KyoriAsh 16:29, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
The fact that this site has translators' ethics is a bit worrying. I would be in favour of using the site news section regarding SOPA, but this would require editor support and admin approval. - Kiefmaster99 18:00, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Latest News: Wikimedia decided to blackout English version Wikipedia on 18 January 2012, for more information, read here - KyoriAsh 07:53, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

As the date approaches closer and closer, (Jan 24th 2012) we need to take swift action. I still want our wiki to bear the censor symbol, and if we can, participate in the blackout (Got till tomorrow Jan 18 12 Am).

Come on editors! Join us in our bid to speak out against censorship! ♥★♦ 03:36, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Personally I really dislike involving my hobbyist activities in politics, but this time this seems to be more than simple politics. I'd say why not? I'd like to hear about what the admins think. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 03:56, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
Don't know what non-americans can do. I've spoken to some americans and they think it's one of the better ideas that's coming out of congress (their argument being that they're hard-working honest people that don't pirate so why would it affect them?). You'd think a country of 300 million+ would be able to stage some sort of massive retaliation against this. Like, totally the largest revolt you'll ever seen. Has such a thing happened? I don't know, I don't see any news about it. In fact, it seems like most people don't even know about it --Tsukihime 22:35, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Non-americans can go onto americancensorship.org and it gives instructions on how they can help. The argument that they are "they're hard-working honest people that don't pirate so why would it affect them" is pretty a apathetic attitude as the video I posted argues that it does in fact affect them, and those Americans that you spoken to should check it out. (If people are too lazy to watch the vid, I will post the main points here.)

For the revolt, just wait until this thing gets passed. Heads will ROLL.

I hate piracy as well. But this bill's language is so messed up that it allows people to point at a website and close them down, without due process and that's wrong, among many other things this bill does.

I'm not arguing their goals, I'm arguing the execution. ♥★♦ 22:55, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Latest News: Wikipedia English alreaty started blackout, Mozilla Foundation decided to blackout tomorrow - KyoriAsh 06:43, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

2011 Touhou Top 10 Event Voting Result

Courtesly from THWiki.info, who gonna transfer it? - KyoriAsh 02:52, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

ACTA?

Although SOPA/PIPA delayed, now comes another one... What the heck is happening on the Internet? More Info - KyoriAsh 03:39, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Yup. Heard about this shortly after SOPA/PIPA got delayed. This is indeed the most stupid thing I've ever heard about bills regulating the internet, especially about the ISP monitoring your internet activities: Your ISP maintains a complete log of what you do on the internet - not to mention that there would be stuff that you do on the internet that you don't want to share with others, if either the ISP or whatever system that maintains all those logs get hacked, you lose all your credit card info, personal info, etc. as a result. Damn, whoever suggested this is so stupid. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 04:40, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
I have not read the details of ACTA yet but I am sure somehow, that the industry is behind this. Just like the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP).--Tosiaki 08:27, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
WTF seriously. That's actually messing with human rights... The Internet is in a bloody state at the minute... :/ Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 17:22, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
I think Japan and all other countries in Asia should reject the TPP right away. Whether that shall happen remains to be seen.--Tosiaki 23:04, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Should I get ready the picket fences and signs?

♥★♦ 01:27, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

More than specifically hoping that SOPA and PIPA will never become law, I also hope that Hollywood and their likes lose all influence in congress, and more importantly, over American culture. I have always deplored how American culture is too much controlled by big industries that would do such things like this.--Tosiaki 16:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

About Translations of Music

So now and then a translation gets modified to make it more accurate. This isn't a problem, because good translations are needed. The only problem with this is that it does not reaches the fans. For instance, "The Fantastic Legend of Tohno" is changed to "Fantastic Tales from Tono", but none seems to care. I think there should be a (weekly/monthly) notice on the homepage saying something like "track x of game x has been re-translated to name x". Just to reach the touhou fans. ☢ Quwanti 20:14, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. ;) Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 20:34, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
That would sound reasonable; it would go under Wiki News or something I guess. I hope that flip-flops don't occur as often then. - Kiefmaster99 22:32, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
I will wait for a few more answers before I (or possibly someone else) will add some information in the news section (though, no idea how to make it short but readable). ☢ Quwanti 14:41, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
The only concern I have about this is that if the news section is used every time a major translation change occurs, then it may appear too long and therefore untidy. I'm fine with monthly updates, though. I guess I'm just concerned about the case that an update is posted on the news section too frequently. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 02:36, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes. Over one month there probably will be an note about the new translated titles which are a lot, though. ☢ Quwanti 13:48, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
But what also is possible is link to a section in a talk page which lists all the translations properly, and could be updated anytime. ☢ Quwanti 14:15, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Ah, just today I was thinking about a section linked from the news section to another page where updates can be posted. Your suggestion sounds somewhat similar to what I was thinking. Let's aim for that. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 18:13, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Using a talk page or normal page, both can be good. What is important is that there should be a notable note on the main page which says something like "Here are the latest translation updated" (which may even refer to story lines or other translations). Maybe a whole new page > Touhou Wiki:Translation updates? ☢ Quwanti 18:35, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Naming Conventions

The file names for the games I feel should represent their origins which is Japanese instead of a English Translation, as this leaves lanaguge bias out of the naming scheme.

♥★♦ 02:23, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 02:32, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Explain how the 'file names for the games' are biased language-wise. Momiji 02:35, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

For instance, using (M)arine (B)enefit instead of (T)ou(h)ou (K)ai(k)ei(d)ou looks like the file naming conventions more towards to English instead of choosing a neutral naming which is based on game origin name - KyoriAsh 02:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, think about how weird it must be for other languages to adopt our English naming convention.
To even it out, having the original name of origin (Japan) should accommodate this.
And, more technical reasons, we share file names in order to not have duplicates on the wiki.

♥★♦ 02:47, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand the 'language neutral' aspect but it sounds like more work-for-the-sake-of-work with the possibility of more screwups, like the previous image renaming issue. This sort've thing makes me very hesitant. Momiji 03:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Well the neutral naming convention is for future fangames/non-Touhou numbering games, the current one will stay, for example File:MBSC001.jpg and File:CtCsc001.jpg - KyoriAsh 03:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Fine. So what would be the format, initials? I guess Marine Benefit would be 'THKKD'? That would potentially share an abbreviation with Touhou Kaikidan if that'd be converted at a future date. At that rate you might as well just use "Kaikeidou". Momiji 03:30, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Official games such as Kaikidan already have its unique abbreviation with Th05... - KyoriAsh 03:34, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Yeah but I can see things like this gaining a life of their own and spreading to other things. Momiji 05:07, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
I am against it, for a few reasons.
One, this wiki must serve the interests of the English fanbase. I fail to see how there is a language bias, since this wiki is English.
Two, first consider that almost all works are denoted as X ~ Y. I am against solely adopting X as that would lead to mass confusion for works of where X is shared upon multiple works (Touhou Sangetsussei). Y acts to differentiate, and thus far, no two works share Y. The only glaring inconsistencies in this naming scheme are Touhou Hisoutensoku (because "Chase the Enigma..." is too long and no one likes using it) and Fairy Wars (because "Fairy Wars" is used in the game itself). While ZUN most likely reversed the typical order for his games for this reason (DS, FW), he doesn't for his print works (EaLND, SaBND, OSP; SSiB, CiLR, IotMaIotE). If anything, X ~ Y would have to be used.
To adopt this scheme for only games and not print works leaves a glaring inconsistency across the wiki.
As for file names, for the reasons mentioned above, using only X isn't going to get you very far. - Kiefmaster99 05:33, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Read "names", not "filenames". Can't read tonight. - Kiefmaster99 06:06, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
This is just for the filenames for files used in offshoot games only. As files go, everything is shared across all of the wikis, so it is kind've an issue with i18n. I do have my reservations because I've been burnt before by file naming cockups. Momiji 05:37, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Well indeed if the current ones are left as they are (such as Ctc and MB), then that would be a case of inconsistency across the wiki, and may become a source of confusion for newbie editors (e.g. another spin-off comes out, a new editor mass-uploads the images of spell cards, and it turns out the editor used the naming scheme for previous games before this was implemented - because the editor referred to the previous naming schemes). So if the new naming scheme has to be implemented, it might be best if we implement it across all spinoff games, including previous ones, and, as Momiji pointed out, it has some degree of possibility of screw-ups, so it must be carried out systematically. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 06:03, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
With respect to Kief's point of duplication, consider the Danmakufu games Phantasm Romance―幻想浪漫紀行― and 幻想浪漫紀行 -Phantasmagoria Trues-, which clearly have the same Japanese part (one is a remake of the other). How do people propose naming spellcards for these? Arcorann 07:40, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Regarding such cases, it would be best to look into how Japanese people distinguish between them. In this case, the games you named seem to be the same, just different versions.--Tosiaki 09:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Some suggestion, 1 - Look at abbreviation first if available, if not, 2 - Look at Japanese name, if crashed, 3 - Look at English sub name as most of Touhou Fangame almost comes with English subname, or else, 4 - Whatever you can say.
Just my 2 cents - KyoriAsh 11:44, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm in favor of your suggestion, Kyo, if we can change the last step into "combining initials of Japanese-English". In this case, "Touhou Kaikeidou ~ Marine Benefit" would come out as THKKDMB. If that's too complicated we could take other steps like "use only the first three letters of the English name" or "Use numbers along with Japanese initials to differentiate between different games." Come to think of it, I don't think we used numbers in differentiating between different games with similar initials. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 21:12, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
What about the ".exe" name for the game. For MB at least it would be just Thkkd if I'm right. ☢ Quwanti 21:14, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
I think we should prefix every file about any game with the full name of the game, in addition to a description. Like "Touhou Kaikeidou ~ Marine Benefit Image One Two Three Dot Jaypeg". In exactly this form. This will clear up any potential confusion. Momiji 22:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
I'd like to comment that even in some other languages, i.p. some Latin alphabet ones like French or Spanish, naming follows English convention. - Kiefmaster99 23:26, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
I like the "THKKDMB" one most. It sounds better IMO as this does prevent some confusion. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 18:07, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
The Full abbreviation should consider as last option - KyoriAsh 12:07, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Some consideration before simply moving page

Please be responsible for updating interwiki link if it is DECIDED TO MOVE across ALL language wiki, thanks. Don't just simply move the page and not updating other language's page. - KyoriAsh 05:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

And here is your solution per MMIP
It's still in beta (srsly, needs massive improvement, but posting upon request), but this is a rough overview on how it looks
(Future versions will have cleaner pictures,travel device will be realigned and made transparent,more universal translations,getting rid of the place holders and whatever suggestions you guys may have for me)
Hope this doesn't disappoint; took me awhile to dream this up.

♥★♦ 04:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Time function?

I just found this on top-right side, not sure what is the code to be included, anyone suggest that it should be included? - KyoriAsh 19:37, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I second this. ♥★♦ 00:13, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Code <toggledisplay showtext="Show code" hidetext="Hide Code">

<!-- Script for CountDown -->
<p><script type="text/javascript">
/*      Author:         Robert Hashemian (http://www.hashemian.com/)
Modified by:    Munsifali Rashid (http://www.munit.co.uk/)
Modified by:    Peter Strömberg (http://halowiki.net/wiki/User:PEZ) */
function countdown(obj) {
this.obj                = obj;
this.Name               = "clock";
this.TargetDate         = "12/31/2020 5:00 AM UTC+0100";
this.CountActive        = true;
this.Calcage            = cd_Calcage;
this.CountBack          = cd_CountBack;
this.Setup              = cd_Setup;
}
function cd_Calcage(secs, num1, num2) {
s = ((Math.floor(secs/num1))%num2).toString();
if (s.length < 2) s = "0" + s;
return (s);
}
function cd_CountBack(secs) {
try { document.getElementById(this.Name + "_D").innerHTML = this.Calcage(secs,86400,100000); } catch(e) {};
try { document.getElementById(this.Name + "_H").innerHTML = this.Calcage(secs,3600,24); } catch(e) {};
try { document.getElementById(this.Name + "_M").innerHTML = this.Calcage(secs,60,60); } catch(e) {};
try { document.getElementById(this.Name + "_S").innerHTML = this.Calcage(secs,1,60); } catch(e) {};
if (this.CountActive) setTimeout(this.obj +".CountBack(" + (secs-1) + ")", 990);
}
function cd_Setup() {
var ddiff       = new Date((new Date(this.TargetDate)) - (new Date()));
this.CountBack(Math.floor(ddiff.valueOf() / 1000));
}
</script><!-- CountDown Instance -->
<script type="text/javascript">
var DXWA = new countdown("DXWA");
DXWA.Name = "DXWA";
DXWA.TargetDate = "3/3/2012 09:30 PM UTC+0000";
</script>

</toggledisplay>

Good idea. I'd like to see this happen :3 --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 01:11, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Same here! :3 Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 01:18, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
That's the wrong code (I'm assuming KyoriAsh was talking about UTC clock). Either way, including an UTC clock in pages like recent changes or edit history doesn't sound like a bad idea. I'll look into it. No, it won't take a month this time :). --WGH 12:16, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
You can now enable it in your Gadgets section in preferences. --WGH 12:39, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Hmm.. abit different compared to there, can adjust to 12 hours format? - KyoriAsh 15:19, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Use of redirect pages into a User page

Redirect pages have been used in the past to link the initials of certain games to the actual article or when a character/game/song/album/etc. has multiple names associated with it to enhance the easiness to search the desired information and thus the accessibility to the information. Here's my question - is it allowed to create a redirect page to a user subpage (e.g. Nazeo's Itinerary Database, my OSP transcription task, Arknarok's Kanji guide, and Tony's page about differences between American and British English)? It'll mainly result in pages that simply drop the "User:(username)/" that go in front of them. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 02:33, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia also use redirect, especially Template redirect, to point to user namespace. Not quite a problem - KyoriAsh 02:35, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
If page is good enough to be put into main (or other appropriate) namespace, it should be just moved there. --WGH 12:57, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Using "Touhou" or "(literal translation)"

Out of this short discussion the question was raised by me: Why translate it literally rather than using just "Touhou"? I am not a translator, but I wonder why this wiki translates it literally. ☢ Quwanti 23:32, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

"Touhou Project" is the unique name of the series. It's the same as any tv show or product. It just wouldn't be as accurate becuase it can have multiple literal meanings which all mean the same thing (That is why Japanese products and TV shows can be rather confusing when they have 3-4 different name of the same show/item used in the US). --Hikaruxz 02:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

By using "Touhou", it's alot easier to identify what this product belongs to rather than "Eastern" which is a general word used to describe anything in the East and not just the "Touhou Project". --Hikaruxz 02:55, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Don't mix literal translation with the main series' title as Touhou Project is a general terms for the whole series - KyoriAsh 09:14, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
"Touhou" is used as a short form of "Touhou Project", for referring to the series. In most contexts, it means "eastern" or "oriental", titles included. - Kiefmaster99 09:26, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
It does not seem to include titles. Given how the works have officially been referred to by leaving out the 東方 and simply saying 紅魔郷, there does not feel any "eastern" or "oriental" in 東方紅魔郷.--Tosiaki 10:01, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
In other words, given how officially, 紅魔郷 is separate from 東方, 東方 is not a description of 紅魔郷.--Tosiaki 10:04, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Furthermore, given how Toho Moto Neta says nothing about what the 東方 means for each time, it seems to be a simple misunderstanding that it actually has an impact on the meaning of each game.--Tosiaki 10:12, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't understand WHY you insists to separate it for literal translation and not literal translate for a whole word? Although the whole is Touhou Project, it does not mean literal translation in the game articles follow the rule, ok? - KyoriAsh 11:17, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be simplest to say "Touhou (Eastern) ..." - the translation of game names are not literal translations, but rather, translations for meaning. The simple fact is that the "Eastern" in each title does not affect the meaning of the name of each game - and thus should be separate from the rest of the title.--Tosiaki 11:47, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Hello! I come from the French Touhou Wiki ^^. I just saw this discussion, and I am bothered to see that some people are not agree with translations.
For everyone, I think it's actually better to use Touhou rather than East, or Eastern. The name must be understood by everyone. We talk about the series name, so if everyone translated we find :
Touhou: Japanese
East/eastern = English
Est/Oriental = French
(God, I don't find anything on the French google with Orient :( I'm knee-hight in shit ! ...)
Sorry, sorry... In general, I also prefer the original name, especially for a game that deal with tradional Japan.
P.S : Sorry for spelling mistake :(...

--Fouri 17:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Fouri.
This is for the meaning though. The game title will still remain Touhou Koumakyou ~ the Embodiment of Scarlet Devil in French and English, but for each language, the meaning will be "Eastern Lands of the Scarlet Devil ~ the Embodiment of Scarlet Devil" or "Pays de le demon ecarlate de l'est ~ L'incarnation du demon ecarlate".
As for whether Touhou is separate, I'd like input from other Japanese fans on how they treat 東方. My impression is that ZUN began to use 東方 for a song title in its original meaning, and then decided to use the song title as a template. If that is true, "Eastern" is the best translation. If the variations of Eastern/of the East/Oriental/etc are a problem, then we can just unify all translations to lead with "Eastern". - Kiefmaster99 05:03, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Maybe we could simply list two alternate translations, "Touhou Lands of the Scarlet Devil" and "Eastern Lands of the Scarlet Devil" - that way, until it becomes clear, we know we are at least not making a mistake.--Tosiaki 05:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
I would prefer keeping one since it's tidier. The whole idea that "Touhou" precedes each title is evident when looking at the Romanized name, which would preserve the idea that "Touhou" in each title may refer to the series, while keeping Eastern as a TL informs that Touhou = Eastern. Whether it acts as a name isn't as clear-cut (unlike Aya, and putting it in a similar category as Hisoutensoku). - Kiefmaster99 05:19, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Wow, I should've responded to this discussion a long time ago...
I'm probably not going into too much details as most stuff I wanted to say (such as the issue about Touhou being separate and what not) has already been brought up and it's probably redundant to say it, but I don't see much problem with the current translation (i.e. "Eastern ~" instead of "Touhou ~"). If we're looking for a good word choice in translating, it's best to go for a word that best conveys the meaning and feeling of the original text, right? In a technical sense, the word itself of "Touhou(東方)" isn't the true meaning of "Touhou" (yeah, it does sound awkward when somebody asks me what "りんご(Ringo)" is in English and I've to answer "りんご" means "Ringo" instead of "Apple). Even though Touhou is now indeed much like a brand name, or like a proper noun, there is still associated meanings to each brand name/proper nouns (such as how "Chloe" would mean "young green shoot" in Greek, its original language). --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 07:49, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Somewhat related, but I've always wondered why Shikieiki's theme was "Touhou Judgment in the Sixtieth Year" when almost every other song title I can think of that uses "Touhou" always translates it as Eastern or Oriental, such as Strange Oriental Discourse, Oriental Memory of Forgathering Dream, Eastern Youkai Beauty, etc. UTW 08:45, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
"Touhou Judgment in the Sixtieth Year" should be fixed. It's really really awkward sounding. Whether if it should be "Oriental" or "Eastern"...I'll leave it up to everyone else here. Tren 04:57, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Simplified English Touhouwiki

As there are huge paragraphs in pages like Reimu Hakurei's, I wish for all the editors and the wiki to use Simple English and not to use big words all the time. My reasons:

  1. There are huge paragraphs that can easily be trimmed.
  2. There are a lot of big words that even I don't understand.
  3. We do have visitos visiting this wiki who has English as a second language. Refering to #2, they'll may not understand big words and can take them serious time to find out what it means if they were to search it.

Any opinions? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 05:25, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

What big words are you talking about? My issue with Reimu's article isn't about the complexity of the words, but rather how they are used. - Kiefmaster99 05:31, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Well, that's partly it, but I just simply come up with this idea while looking though Wikipedia. Simple English Wikipedia explains certain stuff better for people like me. Some users may have already noticed, but I myself lack using bigger words when editing.
I can't really explain further why I suggested this (because I'm rubbish at explaining), but it's any big words that is like not used as often in daily life when socialising. I'm not saying like do a huge revamp, but use simplier meanings for certain things (Lacked research where big words are used due to been tired. Off to bed). If you think this is unneeded, please say and I'll scrap it, or I'll move this to my user space. Thanks in advance. :) Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 06:09, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
It seems that the Simple English Wikipedia is separate from the main Wikipedia. That it exists seems to show that it is indeed useful - that it is separate shows that the regular English Wikipedia is also useful as well.--Tosiaki 06:21, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Such a project is a waste of editors' resources. Time is better spent improving existing articles than creating a fringe language version I doubt will be used by the fanbase. - Kiefmaster99 06:33, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Nazeo may now be working on the Spanish wiki more, maybe more of the English wiki's structure and content can be moved and translated over to the lesser edited wikis. Please give them some love. Momiji 09:54, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
No, no... I didn't suggest to create a new wiki *sweatdrop*. Anyways, I'll scrap this idea and try to simplify stuff myself lol. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 15:54, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Well, I wan't trying to imply that the other language wikis were a waste of time, only that having a redundant English version was. I'm partially occupied with French ver myself. - Kiefmaster99 18:47, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I see that actually a lot of us are working on foreign language wikis. While running around on some of them myself making interwiki links I felt that we could probably transfer some of our templates over to different wikis, since a lot of them were missing. The only catch is that I don't know any of these other languages so I'm hesitant to jump into the task just now (since I see that some templates and categories have texts that should be translated, and I can only translate Japanese to Korean or Korean to English).
If it simply involves dumping all the templates to a different language wiki then I could do it, but would it be OK to just dump all the templates/categories into a different language wiki and not translate the text, if any, are written on the template/category? (I know I shouldn't do this with main articles that are neither templates nor categories, since the articles are bodies of information that are best conveyed when translated into each wiki's language, but templates are mostly there for structural purposes rather than information) --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 18:57, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
That should be left up to the discretion of the foreign language wiki base. There are pros and cons to both. Changing the language makes it easier for the native speakers to understand templates, but creates more work when transferring over information. - Kiefmaster99 19:04, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Hmmm... yeah, that's what I thought. Though it's my wish that I could transfer the missing templates to other wikis, if I simply transfer the templates from here to the other wiki and leave the text untranslated, then users of that wiki won't know how to use them, and of course there's no guarantee that someone will randomly show up and work on the translations. It's better to do a few things right rather than a lot of things in a quite flimsy way lol. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 19:14, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Re:Colors/Colours

I am using a defibrillator on this dead horse. We can't ignore this. A wiki needs to be consistent throughout. For goodness' sake, please choose to use either "Love-colored" or "Love-coloured" on the song titles, but not both. Code Slasher 21:04, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

In the previous discussion, I have noted that "Coloured" was used the earliest. Thus, we use "Coloured". - Kiefmaster99 21:07, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Code Slasher, please refer here before making new discussion - KyoriAsh 21:14, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
So uh, I guess KyoriAsh didn't notice that I said "defibrillator on this dead horse." If we are going to use "coloured", then shouldn't we use that on all of the music pages and not just some of them? Code Slasher 22:37, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Is that en-us spelling and en-uk spelling so important? - KyoriAsh 22:43, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
You may think it's not, but it is. It's a matter of consistency throughout the entire wiki. I'm also talking about things such as "The Ground's Color is Yellow" and "Spring Lane ~ Colorful Path". Code Slasher 22:44, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Consistency is useless when talking of en-us and en-uk - KyoriAsh 22:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
As I have noted before:
(Regarding) English variety across the wiki, then I am against it as it will only annoy everybody else who doesn't use that spelling
(Regarding) one variety for spelling Love-colo(u)red Magic, then I would support it only for sake of translation consistency
I don't see what point you are trying to make on the music pages as all arrangements refer back to a Japanese title. I don't know how to change the mouse-over. For canon music pages, they should be changed to "coloured" if it matters that much.
Regarding style in other music translations, refer back to point one.
If you seriously want to unify all translations under one language variation, I can do some more research.
ZUN has used both "the Last Judgement" and "Colorful Path". Using ZUN isn't going to work, as he has used two mutually exclusive spellings. This actually argues against adopting one universal spelling style. Considering that we retain ZUN's errors, this makes "colorful" a special case.
Use of coloured in an early IN TL excludes the American variant. I am unable to determine if the style was British or Canadian. - Kiefmaster99 23:31, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Very well. I guess since ZUN himself has used different language variations of spellings, we can too. In the future, however, when we translate things, should we default to the British spellings of words? Code Slasher 02:14, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
This is an issue similar in zh side where users wanted to use Simplified Chinese or Traditional Chinese as both Chinese characters are differ in certain terms. The situation is the same for en-us and en-uk. Unless this wiki implement system similar to zh which enables auto converting Simplified to Traditional or vice-versa, else en will be containing both accent. - KyoriAsh 09:31, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
"... else en will be containing both accent." I'm sorry, but I'm a little confused by what you meant with this statement. Could you rephrase that, please? Code Slasher 15:34, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Go to zh, look at the usual "Page/Talk" tab, beside it got an arrow, click it and it will show different variant of zh. - KyoriAsh 16:44, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
I don't know much about trad/simplified Chinese, but are the characters interchangeable between the two in all cases? This is not the case in English (e.g. license (v)/licence (n) in British). - Kiefmaster99 17:05, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
English can be interchange if a vocabulary system is implemented in en Mediawiki, just like in zh, well since the current Mediawiki doesn't support that, so be it. - KyoriAsh 17:14, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Is the moral of this story that whoever edits a page first gets to choose the English spelling variation? Code Slasher 21:13, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I think the moral of the story is not to worry about it too much, and to simply leave things as is.--Tosiaki 21:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't like prioritizing one spelling dialect over another, but I guess I'll just specify to use en_US over en_GB. "Love-coloured Magic" was done as such in the English translation of Story of Eastern Wonderland, but we can't exactly force the rest of the western Touhou community to a certain spelling standard. Unless you want to update the patched Story of Eastern Wonderland to be en_US, then more power to you. But I don't think it's exactly necessary. Momiji 01:47, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Still, we've "corrected" stuff on here that came from English patches of games before, though I can't remember exactly where. I'll agree to using "coloured", but it just seems like we should carry that on to other stuff on here as well to make this site look as professional as possible by conforming to a single standard, even though it might feel like we're "forcing" a certain spelling. I don't mean to start anything negative here; I'm just saying. Code Slasher 07:07, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
By resurrecting a dead horse, you definitely "forced" a decision. Momiji 13:52, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this again, and maybe we could allow for change of spelling based on how ZUN uses it. This would be an additional rule unique to this wiki, and that is "if ZUN uses a spelling variant for a particular word, we should follow it." This means colour gets shifted to color (because ZUN has employed Colorful Path) and that instances of judgement should be kept as that (due to the Last Judgement, relevant to Shikieiki's theme). This has the weakness of risking a ZUN flip-flop. - Kiefmaster99 18:41, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

We could always make a plugin where based on people's preference (like Chinese Simplified vs Trad's setup) to fix this problem. Of course this involves a bit of tech magic, but I'm sure it can be done. ♥★♦ 00:50, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

No. Just no. Momiji 00:54, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Disregarding the comment about making a plug-in, what do you think of Kiefmaster99's statement, Momiji? Code Slasher 04:43, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Distant Phantasm

Can we have an announcement up for this ? It's a major event as far as the western community is concerned. http://distantphantasm.com/ -Master Bigode 19:56, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Why not? Kyori is looking for events related to the western Touhou communities that can go up in the News section. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 20:32, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Theories section... again

It seems like I'm bringing up another dead issue, but we were discussing that the theories section of each character can go elsewhere to a separate page that deals with contemplations or speculations, since it's best if we preserve each character's page mainly with only facts about that character (e.g. what she does in a game, what's her appearance, and her character profiles from each game). Nazeo suggested the use of this page. What's everyone's opinion on this? --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 23:28, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

I would support this. It will help keep canon information distinct and separate from speculation. - Patchwork 00:01, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
I would support re-naming "theories" into "mysteries." They are not so much speculation as much as they are an exploration of things in canon that are prominent and uncertain. For one thing, a great deal of canon literature for things related to Sakuya is devoted to things that are uncertain, but that does not mean that they are not canon facts themselves. Since these are definitely significant for each character, it would make more sense to keep it on the character pages, and re-name it to a more fitting name since they are not simply "theories."--Tosiaki 00:26, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
I think that the name of the section "theories" is creating misconception that it is pretty much only about speculation, whereas that is not actually true: rather, it is listing canon facts related to things that have pointed out to be uncertain. Perhaps there would be less of such a misconception if it was re-named "mysteries."--Tosiaki 00:28, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Woah woah... I thought we were discussing about whether to move material in the theories section to another page. Besides, mysteries doesn't seem to be a good word choice there... It would still engender feelings about speculation. If you hear about "the Bermuda Triangle mystery", then you would first start thinking of how that phenomenon can arise, and then you realize it's just all speculation since "a mystery" is something that cannot be explained. Theories sounds more like it has some sort of solid backing. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 00:35, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
If the question is whether or not the current "theories" section are about canon or not, the answer is, they certainly are. It would not make sense to move important canon information off of character pages.--Tosiaki 00:44, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Even if the theories are canon-related, that doesn't mean they are canon because it has never been verified in any official source. Hence we can possibly move them, and I think that may be a good move.
And for now, we're also suspending the standardization of character pages until further notice. Ibaraki Ibuki 00:51, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
That is incorrect. The contents of the sections have been verified in official sources because they are pretty much only talking about what is mentioned in canon, not making speculations. As stated earlier, it does not make sense to move canon information off of the character pages.--Tosiaki 00:54, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps those sections should be re-worded to be less speculative, but the fact remains that it does not make sense for the canon information contained within those sections to be moved elsewhere.--Tosiaki 00:57, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Theories by definition involve speculation. Unless ZUN outright confirms or denies it, it shouldn't be considered canon or verified.
And must I mention that your sense of what is canon has been brought into question? Ibaraki Ibuki 01:03, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
The canon information used in speculation should already be mentioned elsewhere if it's notable. It's the collection of that information as partial evidence of a speculative, unproven idea that doesn't belong on the character pages. For example, those essays under Yuyuko's "Theory" section. Nothing under "Her Father" references canon except for the two game quotes which are only vaguely related to anything. The "Ink-black Cherry Blossom" mention in her spell cards might be worth one line in Additional Information, if even that, since most characters have allusions to thematically-related myths and legends in their spell card names. All of the other information there is pure non-canon speculation and should be moved. Kapow 02:36, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Many characters have sections explaining their basis on the real person or character in mythology outside of Touhou, and those sections for Yuyuko right now are no different. They are simply explaining more of the real person outside of Touhou, which is definitely not speculation.--Tosiaki 02:40, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Understood, but why not just move these theories to another page dedicated to such materials? Yes it's not mere speculation, but why not leave just the main facts about each character in the respective page and move the theories to a page for theories? At this point, I'd second Momiji's request for you to join our IRC. I feel that we're making all the talk page too burdensome today. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 02:44, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
As stated earlier, for Yuyuko, they are not theories, but simply explaining more about the characters' background for her basis outside of Touhou. I think that the main quesiton should be, "is there a need to move it off the page?" There is a reason if it is irrelevant or not significant, but facts about Yuyuko's background for her basis on the real person does seem to be important for the character. Pages are best kept together in terms of relevant material for better maintenance and for keeping relevant discussions together, unless it gets really long, and it certainly is not longer than the page on Wikipedia for Bart Simpson. I guess I shall get to IRC sometime today, then.--Tosiaki 02:55, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Except in this case the mythological basis is about the Saigyou Ayakashi, not Yuyuko herself, and the Saigyou Ayakashi's page already mentions that it is based on the legend of Saigyou and links to the wikipedia page. That's all that's necessary. The five paragraphs on Yuyuko's page talking about the original poetry are not necessary, they're just repeating the same points to "support the theory" that it's based on an existing myth, which isn't even a theory, it's obvious and already stated on the appropriate profile page. The whole section is redundant and should be removed. Kapow 03:06, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
In actuality, the "Her Father" section is more related to Yuyuko, whereas the "The Ink-Black Cherry Blossom" is, as you say, more related to the Saigyou Ayakashi. In that case, all that shows is that "The Ink-Black Cherry-Blossom" could simply be moved to the Saigyou Ayakashi page, not that it should be removed altogether.--Tosiaki 03:10, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

However, since all of the current theories sections are not really speculation, perhaps they should be re-named into other things so as to cause less confusion.

  • Sakuya: rename to "Mysteries" - it is a canon fact that Sakuya is mysterious, and several things related to that have been examined in canon.
  • Tewi: rename to "White Rabbit of Inaba" - it is a collection of canon facts relating her to the White Rabbit of Inaba
  • Maribel: move the contents of the theories section to the fanon section - it is pretty much actually an explanation of something in fanon.
  • Kasen: remove the "theories" as a section, keep the sub-sections as is - it is a collection of canon facts related to two separate things
  • Flandre: rename to "Concerning her lock-up" - it is a collection of canon facts related to whether she is locked up or not.
  • Yuyuko: same as Kasen - they are actually all collections of canon facts.

While it is true that there is no need for speculative "theories" sections, none of the current sections are really speculative, so they should all be renamed to things other than "theories."

The suggestion above is quite disputable, especially for Sakuya's page: You know that renaming the whole section would hurt the consistency with other articles? --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 01:11, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
I actually find the concept of the "standardization of character pages" somewhat questionable. Of course, we do not need to follow Wikipedia in everything we do, but when they take the approach of not setting rules for naming every section the same way for every character, it seems much more sensible that way.--Tosiaki 01:13, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Also, when the changes would be made to the names of the sections that are mentioned above, there would be no sections named "Theories" so I am not sure how that would hurt consistency with other articles, even if that was desired in the first place.--Tosiaki 01:28, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
So you're not changing just those 6 articles but all other character articles as well? I find "theories" to be a better word choice compared to "mysteries". If you feel like using "mysteries", why don't you use it in the section to denote these theories then? --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 01:54, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
It is because, as IbarakiIbuki stated, "theories" necessarily involves speculation, so there seems to be no reason to call it "theories" if there is no speculation.
Also, it should be noted that my above list is actually exhaustive - there are no other character pages currently with a "theories" section.--Tosiaki 02:00, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I think it's time to ask the definition of official sources in your standards. Do you intend to include nicovideo as such an official source? In my standards it's limited to only texts published by Team Shanghai Alice, ZUN, or some collaborative work he participated in. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 01:07, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Nicovideo Encyclopedia is not an official source, just like how this website is not an official source - it is a secondary source that can be an indication of what is important in canon, just like this website, the only difference being that there are many more people working over on the Japanese side and have much more experience with this than we do. There are many canon things, and other than the list of works in the Touhou Project page, there is also this miscellaneous list of official literature here (of course, excluding the ファンサイト(東方元ネタ関連) section of that page, since those would be secondary sources).--Tosiaki 01:11, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
In essence, Nicovideo Encyclopedia should be thought of as playing the same role as this Touhou Wiki, except that they have much more expperience and have much more people working on it.--Tosiaki 01:43, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
I appreciate that comparison, except the second part shows some extraordinary haughtiness. Touhou Wiki was founded early 2006, and some of the editors here were Wikipedia editors before then. Momiji 02:04, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
I am not saying that we don't have knowledge and experience ourselves - it is just that when it comes to the size of the fanbase, and their greater knowledge of how it would be related to Japanese culture (notice how a great number of articles on the English Wikipedia about Japanese culture are of poor quality), it is only natural that they would have worked on it more than we have... if it was a mistake to say that, please do say so - I only thought it natural to say that, but if this is haughty, I do apologize, and will not say so again.--Tosiaki 02:16, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
If you're citing them, that makes you just a thief. We will not borrow the words of others. If you admire them so much, go work with them and not us. Ibaraki Ibuki 01:50, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
I don't think there is any character page that is citing them. If you are talking about my reference to it in talk pages, it should be noted that I have only talked about it in the context of talking about what Japanese people find important within Touhou canon. I also do not quite know why you say, "go work with them and not us."--Tosiaki 01:55, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

This is my final warning. Constructively debating is one thing but this bickering is completely unnecessary and unwelcome. Any more of this and I will be handing out probations and/or permanent bans. Thank you. Momiji 02:04, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry if I have commented too much - in the course of all this, I have done my best to put forward my views in a logical manner, without trying to simply talk more for the sake of talking, but rather because I believed I had substantial facts. I understand if sometimes, one can talk too much, although I hope that I can at least talk some more if I do have some reasonable things to say.--Tosiaki 02:16, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Just for clarification, when you say "this bickering," are you referring to personalized discussions? I guess I should have realized when this discussion became too personalized, so that I should have simply not replied at that point - sorry about my mistake.--Tosiaki 02:21, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes, thank you. You may want to use IRC to communicate better with other editors directly. Momiji 02:22, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Ultimatum

That wasn't a suggestion.
We seriously need to discuss this on the IRC in order to sort all this mess out.
It's counterproductive to continue like this as we have a situation of an unstoppable force meets an unmovable object.
Our resources are depleted in these arguments and people are getting seriously upset of this; to which you may not even be aware of. Usually, I'd step in as well to argue but instead, I stepped back and watched all the stuff that was going on this time. What I saw was that when your argument is refuted by at least 3 different people, you still go on as if you are right. I also found that your condescending tone isn't accidental, you've on record done this at least 9 other times to other members here including me.
But I'll tell you what buddy, when you make a certain fluffy friend upset, it's ON.
You can still redeem yourself by going to the IRC; you've got 6 days from this point forward, otherwise I'm going to SINGLEHANDLY REVERT EVERY EDIT YOU'VE MADE.
Have a nice day.

And if I have to take a ban, I'd take it 10 times over. ♥★♦ 05:04, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

OK Nazeo, calm down. He is in the IRC now, and things have been settled. Don't try to stir too much things up. I repeat, you need to calm down first, and swear that you won't rage in the IRC. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 05:10, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Lol... bit late 4 that
The "Raghhh" came from the sudden turn of events, :p
Seems like I'll always be King of Sperglords.

♥★♦ 05:13, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

OK then why don't you join the IRC and explain yourself? Discuss any issues you might have. --This message from DeltaSierra4 was delivered on 05:16, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I got kicked, not ok for me to go back :p ♥★♦ 05:17, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Clearly you don't have autorejoin turned on.  :V Momiji 05:22, 19 March 2012 (UTC)