Talk:Touhou Wiki/Editor Corner/Archive 3

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The "phrase" that every single translator just refuses to translate

Part 1: What to do with 程度の能力

It's that phrase that has been used over 60 times. It's become one of Zun's signature trademark. It emphasizes gensokyo's sense of sarcasm. It's the one phrase that should be familiar to any and all touhou translator.

I'm talking about "-程度の能力".

It's the phrase that has been used every single time as a template to describe a character's ability. Yet it never gets translated. not once.
For example, "能力:心を読む程度の能力" simply becomes "Ability: Power to read people's hearts". The actual translation for 程度の is "Just about the extent of ___".. or more simply, "About the extent of ____ ". [Ability: About the extent of reading people's hearts] Now...this is Zun's genius way of showing gensoukyo's natural sense of sarcasm and ironic side. The phrase 程度の tries to make their ablity sound modest and unimpressive on purpose, as if it's trying to make people wonder, "What? Is that realy all you've got?". So what if you can manipulate fate? So what if you can manipulate nuclear fusion? This is Gensokyo, a paradise where everything is above and beyond the extent of anyone's imaginations. On the other hand, Reimu's profile doesn't even make an effort to impress anyone (much like her actual personality). She's the crime solving, youkai exterminating, divine summoner of the hakurei shrine...yet..in her profile.. "Abilty: About the extent of flying".... Woe to the one who underestimates this human girl...

Is translating "the phrase" somekind of unwritten taboo or something O_o . I ask this because I'm in the (slow)process of mass translation revision. The "ability" section in wiki's character profile infobox can be left alone but i'm strictly talking about the official "character.txt" translation. My goal is to translate underlying messages, sarcasm, and nuances, but I was wondering if using "Ability: About the extent of __" would just confuse people. Would everyone get Zun's sense of sarcastic humor? Is there a better/more natural translation of the phrase? Should we just leave it with the generic "Ability: The power to ___"?
Tren 21:29, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm no translator, but this fact is notable enough to be put in a footnote, but putting it in all the profiles would be pretty confusing. However, where that footnote should go is anyone's choice. That is, if anyone else agrees with me (Agree to disagree!) ♥★♦ 02:45, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd lean towards the fact that the resulting translation may sound awkward to english speakers. It would be nice to have a more accurate translation, as some people probably feel they're missing out on a lot of important details. Maybe you can create a page that lists these things that need attention. --Tsukihime 05:18, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Kinda agree with Tsukihime there. I can only understand those underlying nuances of sarcasm and irony from the similarity of the Japanese language to the Korean, but when I attempt to translate such subtle meaning of the phrase into English, it usually ends up being an awkward (and somewhat close to literal, which is a trait I want to avoid as much as probably other translators would) translation. Still, the goal of translation is to convey both the sense and meaning delivered in the original language into the desired "destination language of translation", so should there be something like that you'd like to point out you can go ahead with Tsukihime's suggestion there. Deathsoul4 09:10, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
I saw somewere saying "Power enough to ______". Would that be something? ☢ Quwanti 15:33, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Since 程度の能力 is very famous, especially in its connection to Touhou, I would favor actually adding it to all the abilities. There is an additional reason for this: for the abilities that do not have this affixed, there is an added sense that they are strange since they do not have it (i. e. Eirin's "Genius" ability). My inclination is towards adding something like "Ability to the degree of _" where "_" would be a verb in the present progressive tense. Not only does it sound modest as it originally sounds, and captures the full meaning of it, it is actually quite literal of a translation as well. If this sounds awkward in English, I can only say that it sounds just as awkward in Japanese as well.Tosiaki 16:13, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I have made the changes that I thought was appropriate to the page Reimu Hakurei regarding what I thought were the appropriate kind of changes regarding the abilities. If nobody objects, I will make the changes to all the other character pages as well.--Tosiaki 17:11, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Part 2: The true translation?

程度の能力 is means as "Ability Type", by one of my Chinese friend who knows Japanese - KyoriAsh 19:05, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
That would be okay if one is going for a rough translation, but since 程度の能力 is something important that pops up ever so often, and is famous in Touhou (at least on the Japanese side), I think that it is important to have a translation that captures the original spirit of it a bit more.Tosiaki 20:21, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Using Reimu as an example, what about "Capable of flying in the sky"? That sounds humble enough. As in, anyone with fists is capable of beating Bruce Lee in a fistfight, it's just not generally likely. Replacing "Ability to X" with "Capacity to X" or "Possibile to X"/"Possibility of X'ing" also works. --Prime32 15:13, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
The main difficulty is perhaps the word 程度, which means "degree, standard, extent, order of." It does not mean capability is the sense of 出来る. Therefore, it would be preferable, I think, to say something to that extent (as I am saying right now: "to that extent").--Tosiaki 15:30, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
AGAIN, 程度の能力 means "Ability Type" in Japanese, as explained by my trustworthy Chinese friend - KyoriAsh 16:43, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes, that would be good for a rough translation if the word. However, the word 程度 does not mean type. That would be something more to the degree of 種類 or 種別. Or at least something involving the characters, , , or . 程度, on the other hand, means something more along the lines of "extent" (and extent not as in "spreading out" as in 伸び or 広がり but more along the lines of "degree" or "standard") which I explained in my previous comment.Tosiaki 16:48, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
One thing a translator should avoid: read it as a whole, don't direct translate word by word. That's why the whole word meaning should be Ability Type - KyoriAsh 16:53, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
No matter how one reads it, to say that 程度の能力 means "ability type" would only be approximate. If one wanted to say "ability type," that would be along the lines of 能力種類. It definitely means something that includes the meaning of 程度 itself, since it is 「程度」の能力, not just 能力 itself. Additionally, since 程度の能力 is actually something found pretty much only in Touhou and not much elsewhere, it would not be something that is commonly said.Tosiaki 17:01, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
One more note: from the definition here, it says that 程度の能力 is "能力の強さの度合いを表す言葉である." To translate: it a word to show the the degree/extent (度合い) of the strength of an ability.Tosiaki 17:05, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
程度は何かしらの能力を持っておりを表す言葉. Good luck then, I'm just an Eastern person who wants to try to explain the actual detail meaning to Western person, but somehow Western people define into another meaning - KyoriAsh 17:09, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
I could try collecting comments on this from the discussions about this word, but I will point out one that I found summarizes the point: that this is very much a peculiarity of Touhou, not used elsewhere. The following is comment #186 from the discussion on nicopedia: 「種別を言い表しているのに「~程度」と度合いを表す表現を使うのは東方独特の言い回しだね。」 To translate: "Although it is showing the type (種別) of the ability, to use the word 'degree/extent/standard (程度)' to show the degree/extent (度合い) of the ability is Touhou's peculiar way of saying things." The rest of the comment goes on to say how it would be a discourtesy to randomly use it in situations outside of Touhou.--Tosiaki 17:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
能力:人間を驚かす程度の能力 good luck on translating this - KyoriAsh 17:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Along the lines that I have been saying up to now, it would, of course, be "Ability to the degree/extent of surprising humans."--Tosiaki 17:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
I suggest you visit this 2ch forum to understand more about 程度の能力 befor you come to a conclusion that the meaning is Ability to a degree/extent- - KyoriAsh 17:52, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Could you point out which comment are you referring to? Not only does it not talk about 程度の能力 (as it is simply a discussion about how strong the characters are), but all usages of the word 程度 refer to "degree, standard, extent" etc. For example: #419 「桃食ってるし普通に天人程度には硬かろう 」 ("Eatting peaches, she is tough to the standard of an ordinary celestial") and #317 「あの程度勝てて当たり前だろう」 ("With that degree/extent it would be be natural to win") Tosiaki 18:08, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
You need to understand that the forum is talking about ability without purposely noticing "exact degree" as ability can't use "degree" to measure, keep in mind that not every ability can be used "to the extend/degree" as this is no longer about how the ability is when using. You need to take time referring this 2ch Gensouban forum throughly, not just simply searching 程度 to know what they are talking about - KyoriAsh 18:18, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Are you talking about the thread of the BBS as a whole? If you are talking about the thread, it is simply a discussion about how strong the characters are, so there does not seem to be much in that thread that relates to your point. In any case, could you try pointing out a comment concretely demonstrating what you are saying? It would be a matter of course not to say "to the extent of" all over the place when debating which character is the strongest. It is simply a peculiarity within Touhou to say "to the extent of" or "to the degree of" when stating the names of abilities.--Tosiaki 18:27, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Well go ahead of using "to the extent of/-to a degree", I only provide relevant information. Whether you want to accept it or not is up to you, but then "degree" is a mistake as it should not be used when describing ability, that's it, going to bed. - KyoriAsh 19:15, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
If it is a mistake, then one might as well say that ZUN made a mistake when he chose the word 程度. As said, it is a well known peculiarity within Touhou - if it sounds like a peculiar, it is because it is.Tosiaki 19:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Well what about "X to some extent" rather than "Ability to the extent of X"? The latter sounds like it's describing a generic do-anything Ability and how good the character is with it. --Prime32 18:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
That is what it seems like in Japanese as well - in Japanese, since it is describing the extent/degree/standard of the ability, rather than the kind of the ability, it would, in Japanese as well, sound like it is describing a generic ability. For example, 空を飛ぶ程度の能力 would be "ability to the extent of flying in the sky" and if this does not sound like it is describing what specifically she can do (i. e. fly) and moreso simply the extent of any general ability, that is how it would sound like in Japanese as well. Different from "ability to fly to some extent," which would then simply mean that she has the ability but falls short of its full extent.Tosiaki 19:01, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Part 3: Degree not making sense

Stop arguing and speculating about ZUN and his mistakes. Kyori's right, "degree" should not be used when describing an ability. Tony64 (Talk/Con.)

It is not a matter of "should," but rather what "is," since it is within all the official profiles of the characters, and they all use "degree, extent, standard."--Tosiaki 21:15, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
btw, I have very basic knowledge on Japanese, so I can't suggest any correctin. Like Kyori, I was simply provideing relevant information. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 22:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
If this phrase is that important, then the formatting in the profiles should read like "Ability: To the extent of manipulating borders" and so on to avoid using the word "ability" too many times, as it is also implied. However, another possible implication it may have is that it may reduce how unique each ability is. For example, if all the abilities were arranged like skills in an RPG, gaining them as you level up, would it be like being able to suprise people at level 20 and manipulating eternity at level 93? Even if this were more of a "skill tree" kind of thing, there are still different levels of abilities. At least to me, 程度 kind of has that meaning to it, a measure of progress. Of course, if that is what ZUN was going for, then that should be reflected. But in any case, "degree" sounds a bit odd in this context. NForza 02:10, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Two things to note: if the ability is repeated, that is because in ZUN's notes, it is repeated as well. That is to say, if one reads ZUN's character profiles, the word 能力 is repeated as a redundancy (and in Japanese, the redundancy was not necessary either), so I think that it should be reflected. Also, to leave the word "ability" out would present many problems for some abilities, like "Ability as the Miko of Hakurei." Please note that if it sounds odd, it is because it sounds odd in Japanese as well.Tosiaki 12:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, let's all relax here. As I understand it, certain words do not transfer well when it comes to translation. A few good examples of this are EoSD, (Bird Eye -> Nightblind) PCB (Rewritten for English Consistency) IaMP (Cleaned up the text to read more like English, at the cost of it being less of a literal translation), and SA (Change of nuance of english translation). With all of these, they all have been formatted to serve the people's needs. Which means that for readability sake, keep Ability Type as the format for Characters powers. Also a lot of people are for keeping Ability Type (and don't take this as a personal attack) because it makes for more conciseness in the English language, because Ability to the extent of makes us sound unsure which causes confusion without explanation for the unsuspecting User.

(Personally, if 程度の能力) does mean "ability to the extent of", a footnote somewhere, not necessarily in the character page but some Misc thingy. If we decide to go forward with my suggestion, I'll look more into it.) ♥★♦ 03:26, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

However, one must note that if it does sound odd, it sounds the exact way in Japanese as well. The phrase 程度の能力 itself has been noted to be very odd-sounding in Japanese which is why it has been noted to be one of the peculiarities of Touhou. Therefore, any translation should keep in mind that it should sound somewhat odd. Here, it is not merely a matter of keeping the original meaning, but also keeping to the original spirit to it as well. That is to say, since it has been widely noted on the Japanese side to be an oddity that sounds strange, it should sound strange in English as well.Tosiaki 12:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
But "Ability Type" sounds kind of redundant in a way, so why not just stick with "ability"? Also, as this phrase usually shows up in the profile, I suggest to leave "ability" out of the actual phrase and just leave it behind the colon, e.g. "Ability: To the extent of manipulating fate." That seems like a fair compromise. I agree with what you say about "words" sometimes not translating well, for phrases, there should be a way to get the intent across while maintaining readability. Conciseness is important and that should be considered, but don't make things too concise. NForza 04:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Leaving it behind only the colon presents many problems for some abilities, like "ability as the miko of Hakurei." The ability is additionally a redundancy found in the Japanese text as well: if it feels redundant, it also feels redundant in the Japanese as well. To leave out the redundancy would not only lose the meaning, but also the original intent as well.Tosiaki 12:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, that what I meant lol! (I assumed "Ability:" would stay) How about in the char box we leave Ability and inside the translated text near the bottom we have the actual thingy of "To the extent of" I prefer that actually. (But I think that's what u said NForza, so I'll just say I agree with that!) ♥★♦ 04:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

The thing is that 程度の能力 is a famous oddity known within Touhou, so I think that it should be given the prominence it has.Tosiaki 12:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Part 4: Evidence

Please keep in mind that what is important here is to not only keep the original meaning intact, but also its original spirit. As stated earlier, it is something which is an oddity within Touhou, and that it also sounds odd in the Japanese language. The fact that it sounds odd in Japanese is to the extent that although it is famous within Touhou, there have been cautions given out not to use it in situations outside of Touhou, especially when evaluating others, because it would be such an odd way of saying things outside of Touhou that it would be a discourtesy to use it to those who do know what it means. All translations should keep the oddity of the phrase itself in mind.--Tosiaki 12:20, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

To continue off of my continuous comment: here is an important portion of the nicopedia entry for 程度の能力 warning about improper usages outside of Touhou: 但し、ユーザーの全てが必ずしも東方Projectに好意的ではないという事を忘れてはならない。

またこれらの能力はすべて上記の媒体を情報源にしており、さらに実際にキャラクターがそれを披露したことはほとんどない。
そのため、非常に情報が曖昧で不十分であるので「実際にどれほど凄いのか」というのが不明であり、
この情報源以外で載ってあるものは、すべてファンが推測・妄想の域で極大誇張で語っているものに過ぎないのである。

無用な諍いを避ける為にも無関係な動画、話題に対しては極力使用しない等、

私達もまた「空気を読む程度の能力」を持つ能力者である事を自覚して行きたい。

Translation:

However, let not forget the fact that not not all users are favorable to Touhou Project.

Also, the source of information for these abilities are all from the above media [the text files as well as Perfect Memento in Strict Sense], and furthermore in reality the characters almost never announce it themselves.
Due to this, to announce these in unusual situations would be insufficient since it would be unclear that one would say "how amazing is it really"
Other than what has been written in the above sources, let us not go excessively into all of the region of the extreme exaggerations of fans' guesses/delusions that people sometimes talk about."

In order to avoid useless fights, let us, to the best of our abilities, not use this phrase in unrelated videos and topics,

And also let us have the self-consciousness to have the 'ability to the degree of reading the situation.'

(All emphasis present in original).

Also, here is other portion of comment #186 of the discussion on Nicopedia that I have pointed out earlier:

日本語的におかしく感じられて目に触るし、東方コミュニティ以外でそういう使い方をするのは控えた方がいいと思う。

特に他人を評する時にこんな言い方したらメチャクチャ失礼だから絶対するなよ!

Translation:

Japanese-wise it feels strange/funny that that I think it would be better to hold back on using it outside of the Touhou.

Especially when commenting on other people, if you say things in this way, it would be a senseless discourtesy so definitely do not do it!

(emphasis added)

In response to this, here is comment #189 also from the discussion, giving one exception when it is still okay to use it outside of Touhou:

「その程度の能力(パワー)で俺を倒せると思っていたのか!?」 とでもごまかせておけば大丈夫だろ。

Translation:

It would, though, still be fine to use it like "do you think you could defeat me with that degree of power?"

In the discussions about this word, there are also many people talking about how some people are being very irritating, using it in random situations outside of Touhou. It is definitely not the kind of phrase that can normally be used in Japanese without feeling funny.

Given all of this, and also given how famous this phrase is, it should be obvious that to translate it as if it were a normal phrase in English that it could be used naturally in any other situation would not merely be a loss of meaning, but it would also lose its original spirit of the phrase as well: that it should sound odd.Tosiaki 13:29, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

But what I'm saying unless you either are a hard core Touhou-Fan, can read Japanese, or navigate to the box itself, you'll be confused and this wiki's purpose is to be accessible by anyone and to remember that we are not creating this wiki for ourselves.
That being said, my compromise on the bottom (and a visual) is pretty fair. If there are other places that uses this, we can use the to indicate it and use it to explain the sense of humor, thus eliminating the confusion and still keeping the true spirit of the text. So, what do you think?
博麗 (はくれい)  霊夢 (れいむ)
Reimu Hakurei
haku͍ɽee ɺeemɯ (♫)
Reimu Hakurei
Reimu Hakurei in Ten Desires
楽園の巫女
More Character Titles
Species

Human

Abilities

Flying in the sky, manipulating auras, Ability is the same as Miko of Hakurei

Age

Presumably mid-teens

Occupation

Shrine Maiden

Location

Hakurei Shrine

Music Themes
Appearances
Official Games
Print Works
Music CDs
Miscellaneous Works
Other


Reimu Hakurei 博麗 霊夢
種族 : 人間
職業 : 巫女さん
住家 : 博麗神社
能力 : 空を飛ぶ程度の能力
性格 : 呑気で感情豊か。浮世離れしている。
Shrine Maiden of Paradise

Reimu Hakurei


Race: human

Occupation: shrine maiden

Place of residence: Hakurei Shrine

Ability: Ability to the degree of flying in the sky.

Personality: Carefree and sentimental. Not too attached to the world of the living.

Zun's carefree nature shows here

♥★♦ 04:08, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

In the left-hand profile, I would change "Ability: Ability to the degree of flying in the sky" to "Ability: To the extent of flight." Less redundancy, relatively more natural. Otherwise, that's fine. NForza 05:05, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
I agree upon "†" and "To the extent of flight" Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 05:56, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Well, the last thing about these abilities is that they are somewhat like the titles: if you shorten it, then it would seem to be "another description," whereas in reality, it is more of a title carried by the character, since these "abilities" are not actually descriptions of the character's true abilities, nor do the characters usually talk about them in-game. To keep "ability to the degree of" would make it clear, even though it has a redundancy, that it is more like a title-like thing rather than a true description of abilities (and it would also prevent people from being confused that the character's abilities are just limited to what is in the box - for example, when I first saw the Remilia Scarlet page, I was confused by the ability listed, "manipulation of fate," since I thought, "is that all she can do?"). I think that one better option would be to create the page Ability to the degree of which lists all the "Ability to the degree of" in a similar fashion to the Character Titles page as well as explain the meaning of the phrase, which can be linked to in all the character boxes as well as the "abilities" section of each character.--Tosiaki 13:50, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
I would have to additionally note that since these abilities are more like titles rather than actual descriptions of the characters' abilities, it would be important to keep the name of the ability the consistent throughout, since these abilities, like titles or names, need to have a fixed identity (that is to say, 空を飛ぶ程度の能力 should always be stated in full as "Ability to the degree of flying in the sky"). To that end, to change from the word from "degree" to "extent" without changing all of the usages of the phrase would not do either: it has to be one or the other. To treat these abilities as titles rather than another description would be important in clearing up confusion as to exactly what they mean, since I have been confused before by it (as stated in the previous comment), and I know that for most people, if they see the words, "Abilities: to fly, to manipulate auras, powers as the Miko of Hakurei," or "Abilities: to manipulate fate," most people will interpret that to mean an actual description of all the powers or the main powers, whereas these are more like titles strictly from Perfect Memento and the attached text files.Tosiaki 04:55, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Part 5 Compromise?

Umm, does this satisfy you? If not, show me what you'd like to see.

♥★♦ 05:12, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I see nothing bad in leaving all abilities on the Reimu Hakurei page as is - it may make the character box about one line longer, and it may take up a few more bytes, and may take two or three seconds longer to read, but for the sake of naming it exactly the same way every time, it would make it more clear what it is, I would say.Tosiaki 05:21, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Could you do that for me then? As soon as this gets done, I can help you with this implementation ♥★♦ 05:24, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I do want to make a comment that like this, rather than using the † mark, that perhaps more simply the phrase "ability to the degree of" can be used as the link instead as it is currently a redirect. As such, I have added the links to the standardization page, and I am not sure if this renders the † mark redundant - if so, maybe it could be removed.Tosiaki 05:35, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I agree on the cross thing in which we should just link to "ability to the degree of". For the Ability section, can I have the old version of it and instead use User:Tony64/Template:Infobox Character to link to it? Also, perhaps an Admin can help us out? (Kudos to Tony64 for this!) Your thoughts? ♥★♦ 05:41, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

As for that, I see nothing wrong with both the "Abilities:" and "Ability to the degree of" linking to the abilities page.Tosiaki 05:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh ok. Hmm, well I think I'll use the cross thing as we still have to have an explanation, just not letting it link. I also see nothing wrong with both the "Abilities:" and "Ability to the degree of" linking to the abilities page (But I still rather have Ability to the degree of flying in the sky, ability to the degree of manipulating auras, ability as the Miko of Hakurei reverted back to Flying in the sky, manipulating auras, Ability is the same as Miko of Hakurei), How about it? ♥★♦ 06:13, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, the purpose of keeping it spelled out in full is to keep it properly named, so to speak, so that it would be quoting directly from the text files. The names of these abilities are well-known specific phrases, especially 空を飛ぶ程度の能力 which has its own page on pixivpedia, that to say only the same thing without abbreviation would make it clear that it is that and exactly that. As such, I know that in your standardization page as of now, you write "What their powers are" next to abilities, but perhaps it would be better served as "abilities from text files or Perfect Memento."Tosiaki 06:51, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I would additionally like to add, the Japanese wikipedia page here already lists it as such, directly quoted from the text files and Perfect Memento. A search for 空を飛ぶ程度の能力 with quotation marks gets a significant number of results - Google says 133,000. Given how significant these phrases are, I think that it would be important to make no small matter of them.--Tosiaki 07:02, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Does it really have to be "degree"? I keep saying "extent" is more natural, but only a few people seem to agree with me. NForza 07:21, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
It does not have to be "degree" if "extent" is indeed better, but it should be kept consistent throughout the entire wiki, so if it shall be changed over, then all instances of the phrase, not just some, should be changed.--Tosiaki 07:27, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Additional comment: currently, there are many PC-98 characters with "Ability: Unknown" or else an entry like Mima's where the ability was guessed at but never actually originally specified. I think it would be better to get rid of the "Ability" entry from the infobox for those characters.--Tosiaki 07:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I just realized that if I try to delete the "Ability" entry from the infobox, it will end up "unknown" regardless. Since all of those PC-98-only characters do not actually have an "Ability," it would be best to leave out the "Ability" entry for all of those characters, although a mod would have to add in the to make such a change, of course.--Tosiaki 07:53, 26 December 2011 (UTC) Actually, I can get rid of the section by making it blank.--Tosiaki 07:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

If it should be left out then it should be just {{#if:{{{ability|}}} }}. I do not think any pc-98 character will get an ability anyway. ☢ Quwanti 14:39, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Please don't put blanks on abilities. If the ability doesn't say "unknown" and says something else that doesn't have this "phrase", still leave it as it could be an obvious ability not stated, or something like that... Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 16:30, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
There are no abilities like that, though. That is to say, for Mima, there has never been anything to specify something like "能力:~." One thing to note is that the Japanese Wikipedia does not list the abilities for the PC-98-only characters either, nor does any other Japanese source talk about the "abilities" of PC-98-only characters.--Tosiaki

Current agreed on changes have been implemented on this page Specifically, I went with Nforza's suggestion to change Degree to Extent, and Quwanti's to remove the Ability Unknown and the crosses (it's tacky and obsolete now that we have the Abilities types put in the info box, thanks Coyc!) I still argue that since the Char Box is one of the first things Users see, I don't want them to be confused and this is a synthesized summary of what a character can do, we don't need to add in Ability to the extent of flying in the sky, ability to the extent of manipulating auras, ability as the Miko of Hakurei. ♥★♦ 15:44, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Part 6: Does it really make sense?

One thing about the "To the degree/extent of"; is there a other way to read it? Because I have no idea what it means at all. ☢ Quwanti 16:43, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I would say that it is because people see the character box as the first thing that it is important to see that phrase - to know that it is these are important and significant phrases that should not be ignored. If it is still unclear, it can be explained in the Ablities page, but it means very simply the extent/order of magnitude of the strength of their abilities. In other words, "ability to the degree/extent of flying in the sky" means that her strength goes to the degree/extent/order of magnitude of being able to fly. As stated in the nicopedia page, this is, in fact, the correct way to read it.--Tosiaki 17:13, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Was my point since the beginning... It's not exactly a User-friendly term and it will confuse people. Any able to keep the sense if humor if we change it, if at all we keep the phrase? ♥★♦ 16:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

If it is not immediately clear what it means, I think that it would be good to explain it in more detail in the Ablities page. Since these "ability to the degree/extent of ~" are not full descriptions of their abilities, I think that it would probably be more confusing to specify them as if they were, and to say "ability to the degree/extent of ~" would let people know that it has a more specific meaning. Moreover, given the significance of the term itself, I think that it is important not to hide it away from the first place where people can see it, even if it is a little hard to understand - if that is so, then it just means that it needs a better explanation on the page that explains it.--Tosiaki

I have adjusted it on Abilities page, if everyone is in agreement, we shall move forward. ♥★♦ 23:24, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

The important argument for why the full phrase should not be left out of the character boxes is that these phrases are significant and very well-known, that I think that it would be important to include it in the first location where people would see it. Especially for something as important as the character box, I think that it would be important to list the ability exactly as is, rather than an interpretation of it. Maybe the phrase "ability to the degree/extent of ~" would confuse people who first see it, but that is why it would be linked to the abilities page, to explain it. See, for example, the earlier link (repeated here) on the Japanese Wikipedia page for Reimu Hakurei. I do not quite see how it would make sense not to state out the ability properly in the place where it is most important.--Tosiaki 23:40, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, we made many concessions here so I think we've done enough

  • Abilities now links in char box
  • We have a page that explains it all
  • The page is referenced all over the Char page

I still wanna keep the one in the char box unedited, because it's not like they just read the char box and go "Oh that's all to know about the character". Let's have the user read and go "Huh, that's a strange way of saying it, lemme click this link" and the rest is done. The Char Box is not for word on the translations it's a summary, the rest is explained on the same page so don't worry, they'll see it. The culture shock will be easier on them since this is what the Western side grew up with... ♥★♦ 18:33, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree upon this. Also, "extent" is a way better word than "degree" Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 18:35, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Regardless of that, it still seems that without "extent," it is more confusing, as these are not literal descriptions of the character's abilities, and the phrase lets people know to treat it as such. For example, if the page said "Abilities: Manipulation of fate," then people will think that she literally has the ability to manipulate fate. To add "ability to the extent of" in the character box qualifies that and lets people know that there is more behind what is just literally stated, and that it should not be read literally that "she has the ability to manipulate fate," which cannot be said to be accurate. Many other characters have abilities like this as well. Ultimately, we should think about how to present it in the way that is most understandable to the reader, and to remove the words "ability to the extent of" will probably cause misunderstandings.--Tosiaki 18:56, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
To that end, perhaps indeed the beginning word, "Ability" may not be necessary in the character box, but I do still favor keeping the "to the extent of" to let people know what the ability means (i. e. not to take it literally).--Tosiaki 19:05, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

With what Nazeo said with "Abilities" now links to the Abilities page on every character page on the wiki that has the template, I approve upon removing the redirect on the pages. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 21:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed The extra link may now be somewhat redundant.--Tosiaki 21:50, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
YAY! I'll go and remove them. Also, once removed, shall we put the redirect to deletion? The visiters might not put "Ability to the ex-" on the search bar. Tony64 (Talk/Con.)
Note However, I do not see the reason why the instances of the "ability to the extent to" outside of the character box (namely, in the ability section of the pages) should not have such a link - it would seem logical for the link to be there in the abilities section as well. For a moment, I shall be re-adding the relevant link to the Reimu Hakurei page and await further comments.--Tosiaki 23:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Also However, if this is the case, then why isn't there a link outside the box on titles, hmm? Moreover, if that will stay under abilities, why don't we just put "[[Characters/Abilities|Abilities]] to the extend of"? I approve upon this suggestion as it will make sense to not try and use an awkward link. Tony64 (Talk/Con.)
After thinking about this, even then it does seem to be an awkward link. The intent of having such a link was originally mainly for the intent of explaining the phrase itself, and that by having "Ability to the extent of" being clickable, it would be explained in the appropriate page. However, it is, as you noted, quite awkward. Moreover, I do think that there is something self-evident in the phrase, "ability to the extent of," that it is not something that needs to be explained in detail immediately - previously, when it was "ability to the degree of," it may have needed more explanation, but it is clearer now. Therefore, I do think that it is better now not to have such a link.--Tosiaki 01:30, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Part 7: A misunderstanding

NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's not what I meant!

I just wanted "Ability to the extent of flying in the sky, Ability to the extent of manipulating auras, Ability as the Miko of Hakurei" to go back to "Flying in the sky, manipulating auras, Ability is the same as Miko of Hakurei"

Everything before my last comment was good up till that point expect for that one thing.

This is my fault, as I realize I wasn't specific enough, but again, I still argue having "Ability to the extent of flying in the sky, Ability to the extent of manipulating auras, Ability as the Miko of Hakurei" reverted "Flying in the sky, manipulating auras, Ability is the same as Miko of Hakurei" and the like for the other Char Pages

That is the only pressing concern I have, the rest I'm fine with. (Sorry for the misunderstanding guys!) ♥★♦ 01:36, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I added a few line breaks to make your comment easier to read - I hope you don't mind that. Anyways, the main issue I have with that is that this kind of change is not merely an abbreviation of their abilities, but actually changes the meaning of the abilities themselves. Abbreviation is no problem, but if it changes the meaning to be something else, then I do not think it should be done. Exactly how it changes the meaning is something I said earlier - if "to the extent of" is excluded, that people will interpret that more literally rather than letting people know that it is such an "ability to the extent of," and moreover, is the same ability as the one explained in the "abilities" section. Also, I do want to make a comment, but "Ability is the same as Miko of Hakurei" does not seem to make much sense - or am I just reading something incorrectly?--Tosiaki 01:47, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Moreover, I want to make the comment that as-is, since the phrase "ability to the extent of flying in the sky" appears both in the infobox and in the "Abilities" section, the fact that they are written the exact same way makes it clear the abilities section is explaining the exact same thing as what is stated in the box. For the phrase, "ability to the extent of flying in the sky" not to be specified in the character infobox, and then to suddenly show up somewhere later in the page would be more confusing than necessary, I think.--Tosiaki 01:54, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm fine with the line breaks.

For the Abbr. thing, I agree that it definitely can change the meaning of it, but then not using the Abbr., how do we keep that without people getting confused (as brought up by Momiji in Talk:Characters/Abilities)? For that discussion, we'll continue over there.

For the point you bring up in "Ability is the same as Miko of Hakurei" yes it doesn't make sense, so I'll give you that. This is easily alleviated by stating "Status/Jurisdiction as the Hakurei Miko" (make your pick)

I'll humor you on this one as I still strongly think The "ability to the extent of flying in the sky" should be reverted back to "Flying in the sky" but for both being in the CharBox and the main page, I feel it gives incentive for Users to click the link to figure out why it's there and accomplishing the goal of getting Users to understand it.

For that, I don't mind if that happens, but there you have what I think why if it should stay.

♥★♦ 02:07, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, it is not quite "Status/Jurisdiction as the Hakurei Miko," if one would look at the "Abilities" section that explains it. It is very simply the powers that she has because she is the Miko of Hakurei. In other words, "ability as the Miko of Hakurei" is exactly that, although it might be a little clearer if it were in plural, like "abilities as the Miko of Hakurei."--Tosiaki 02:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Let's go with that then. ♥★♦ 03:18, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Regarding this: Regardless of that, it still seems that without "extent," it is more confusing, as these are not literal descriptions of the character's abilities, and the phrase lets people know to treat it as such. For example, if the page said "Abilities: Manipulation of fate," then people will think that she literally has the ability to manipulate fate. To add "ability to the extent of" in the character box qualifies that and lets people know that there is more behind what is just literally stated, and that it should not be read literally that "she has the ability to manipulate fate," which cannot be said to be accurate.

I would argue that "ability to the extent of" makes this problem worse - far from sounding humble it makes it seem like Remilia can do anything, up to and including manipulating fate. Just because "extent/degree" is given as the literal translation of the phrase doesn't mean it has the same implications in every context. Maybe renaming "Abilities" to "Limits of Abilities" would solve this? --Prime32 02:06, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I guess that the word and consequently 程度 (which has a similar meaning) do have a certain feeling of "limit" to them. For example, 体の程 would mean something like "the limits of one's body" or something like that. Used in this context, though, "limit" seems to be a bit off in its nuances. For example, it would mean the degree/extent/standard as in "do you think you can defeat me with that degree/extent/standard of power?" - within that sentence, to replace degree/extent/standard with "limit" would not make much sense. These are important nuances to keep in mind.--Tosiaki 02:37, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

We all have built a wall of discussion. It's above my patience. So I'll leave my opinion. I would like "ability on the degree of doing..." for literal translation, but when it's quite unnatural in English, I'll push "ability of just doing ...". "程度の" means, as it's been already pointed out, originally only "some level or degree, no matter if it's high or low". For example...

  • Netural case: "This is the Certificate for Students Achieving the Proficiency Level of Upper Secondary School Graduates." (これは高等学校卒業程度認定試験です。 lit. "This is the High School Graduation Level Admission Examination.")
  • High case: "It must be too cold beyond its level!" (寒いにも程度があるだろ! lit. "The cold would have its level!)
  • Low level: "Is your power at that level?" (貴様の力はその程度か? lit. sic.)

Well, the first "neutral" usage sounds a little too formal or official. So every-day usage is the third "low" one, while the second & third are the same on the point that both are bad: Too cold is bad and too powerless is also bad.
Such meaning fits to "just", I think, especially for oral language rather than literal language. --masuo64 Talk 07:08, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

From your examples, it seems like something involving "level" might be good, at least at first, especially since I have not thought of that word until now. For example, something like "ability just to the level of ~" or "ability to the level of just ~". I am not quite sure how it would sound to others, though.--Tosiaki 07:59, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Color Codes

Color Codes

I want my fellow editor's opinions on this.

My goal is to give a little more navigational insight into a character and I think this is it.

Each Approach gives a unique solution on how to present this information and this will replace text such as "Note: This article is part of the Seihou Project, by the former members of Amusement Makers."

I plan on adding other games to the list such as Torte Le Magic and Uwabami Breakers (that is, until I can figure out a format for such)

My stance on which approach to use is leaning towards 2.5, but other than that it is relatively neutral.

(This is, of course if this should be used at all!)

♥★♦ 22:35, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

(This page needs archiving but I let that handle someone else)
About the color codes, it doesn't sound like a bad idea. Though, coloring the whole infobox may be hard for the eyes. I saw on the Kingdom Hearts wiki something funny; (http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Sora) note at the top of the page a list of logo's about which game the character is related to using the game's logo. I think this can also be used on this wiki (for the official stuff, and fanmade get their own stuff or something) using the game's logos (yes touhou games also has them). This will result in not only usage for the characters, but for all the pages.
Though, something which is related to the series as a whole will get an own section I guess. For characters like Reimu and Marisa. The whole set-up should first be discussed, lol. ☢ Quwanti 22:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Approach one and three I'm thinking of nixing, and just use 2.5

as I think it's the best way of doing this.

Logos aren't a bad idea as well, in fact, this may be in fact better than my stupid colored squares lol.

Here is a compilation (by Quwanti) for others to see

Appearances
PC-98

Highly Responsive to PrayersStory of Eastern WonderlandPhantasmagoria of Dim.DreamLotus Land StoryMystic Square

Windows 1

Embodiment of Scarlet DevilPerfect Cherry BlossomImmaterial and Missing PowerImpersihable NightPhantomaorgia of Flower ViewingShoot the Bullet

Windows 2

Mountain of FaithScarlet Weather RhapsodySubterranean AnimismUndefined Fantastic ObjectTouhou HisoutensokuDouble SpoilerFairy WarsTen Desires

Seihou Project

Shuusou GyokuKioh GyokuBanshiryuu

Other

SamidareUwabami Breakers

And of course, I'll let you you guys decide on how to split them into sections!

So, I'm definitely with Quwanti's idea! ♥★♦ 22:58, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, I actually meant the logos at the game covers. (If you want explanation you may ask it on the chat, lol) ☢ Quwanti 23:07, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Ultimatum will be made on Saturday 28 of January 2012 if no objections are made; I shall implement them. Literature icons are also being developed. ♥★♦ 02:04, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

If anything goes above the name, it is going to be distracting. If you are thinking of using a box, then it had better not create a blank void above the name either. - Kiefmaster99 02:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok, so nix the white space and... name?
We need to say where these things came from unless I am misunderstanding this wrong...
Could you be more specific as in what you mean?
(Also, I think w/o blank viod looks ugly imo, requesting for bringing it back)

♥★♦ 02:33, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I mean two things in particular: If using game icons, they should not go above the infobox; and if using boxes, it should not create extra space at the top. - Kiefmaster99 04:03, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I actually disagree with using this. A: as Kief said, it can be distracting for a lot of visiters. 2: Lack of space to where to put the box for some pages without messing things up. And Z: This will make the list within the infobox character template redundant. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 14:55, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Game icons are pretty useless. They aren't recognizable. If you can recognize them, you probably know the character anyway. I like the first approach more. Visitors don't have to learn the codes. Different color is just a visual hint. The question is how to link color code and source (i.e. make it possible to figure out what the color mean). --WGH 20:32, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok guys, lemme combine your suggestions and modify them.
What I did:
I addressed WGH's concern about them not being recognizable, so I went with the actual game covers instead.
Then, I will address Kief's concern with placing it in the Appearance section and center it so it does not create extra space.
Tell me guys, is this a good idea, or if I am heading in the wrong direction?

♥★♦ 23:44, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

From my point of view, game covers aren't more useful. The only recognizable "thing" of game in Western community is probably abbreviated name. Either way, your original idea is better. It reminds me of how wikipedia uses colors in some infobox templates, which is not a bad thing. --WGH 10:17, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
If using colour boxes, I would put them to the left or right of the name, or something more stylish. Using shading with a non-aggravating colour, or a thin stripe across the infobox would also work. - Kiefmaster99 00:25, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok then, let's go with colors. I will create 3 new versions and have you guys pick from these.

Character types 3
Games
PC-98
Literature & Music
Related
Fan-made
Character types 2

GameFightingLiteratureMusicFan Made

Character types 1
Games PC-98 Literature & Music Related Fan-made

Pick which one is the best, or choose which elements you like that you want to be in the final product.

♥★♦ 01:24, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

That's actually a better idea. I actually like the first one best, cause it's horizontal and it will fit perfect on top of the char infobox. I'll see what I can do on my sandbox. I changed certain stuff, but I think we can fit more than five colours:
  • Game = The character appearing in any game from EoSD onwards.
  • PC-98 = Characters that have only appeard in the PC-98 (If characters from this category have appeared in a Windows game, change to the Game category.
  • Literature and Music = For characters that origially didn't appear in a game, but first appeard in a manga or a CD cover.
  • Related = Characters from Seihou, Samidare, Uwabami Breakers etc.
  • Fan-made = As said
  • Other = Any others that don't fit the above said, but I don't think this one will be needed.
The char box will be defaulted to Game so it stays blue, so thank you in advance ^^ Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 12:48, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree. Color and text would be the best option. Please see "Attempt WGH.1" here. --WGH 11:22, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
(Thanks Tony64, for the changes you made to mine)
WGH's solution is the best option, therefore we shall proceed with implementation on Feb. 3 2012 if there are no objections.
Thank you collaborators, this should make things more accessible!

♥★♦ 00:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Now enacting the changes (sorry for the delay). Colors can be changed at will for the time being, and it be nice if an Admin places it inside the Char Box. ♥★♦ 21:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I came up with another idea seen here in the Char Box. I await your opinions. ♥★♦ 01:33, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Random Things...

Random Things... is this basically a place where we do not know where these would fit on the wiki? I think that's a rather poor excuse (as you guys made a point on the the Touhou School) because most things (if not all) I find there can and should be placed on another section like Fanon and Memes. But, before I do such a thing, I'd like your fellow opinions, editors. ♥★♦ 22:11, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Input Method Dictionary and Technical Information could go under Game Tools and Modifications. The Meiji University Touhou lecture and fiction written by ZUN would probably fall under "official sources". And the info in Spelling discrepancies can be mentioned on the character pages. All the other pages could be safely lumped with the Fanon and Memes page. (Maybe we could replace the "other random things" in the sidebar with "fanon material" or something like that.) Ibaraki Ibuki 04:50, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Make it so! (If you could plz!)

♥★♦ 02:33, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Bestiary

Bestiary

I like the enthusiasm, who is willing to partake in some serious REVAMPING? ♥★♦ 02:33, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to ..edit tables and stuff...but I believe there should be a category for "divine beings". (I kinda laughed when I saw "Yaoyorozu no Kami" placed in the same category as "maid". Also, fairies are not youkai.^^ Tren 04:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Actually I'm starting to think it would be best if we categorize them the same way as they did in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense Tren 04:14, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Erm, I have objections to that as there are some problems with the perspective Akyuu has as she lumps Lunarians with humans, among other things.
And "Yaoyorozu no Kami" is a title, thus it's ok to place next to maid.
Youkai is a general term for any supernatural creature and a fairy is in fact a supernatural creature.
What I would suggest is having a Divine category , but I'll let others weigh in on that

♥★♦ 01:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, of course you wouldn't want to trace it Exactly the way Akyuu did..just a base outline to start off from.
I'm not quite sure how "Yaoyorozu no Kami" is a title. I'm gonna assume "title" means the same thing as a occupation or profession. Humans, fairies or youkais can become a maid, but the "Yaoyorozu no Kami" are "species" and not an occupation. I believe the word you are looking for is "神霊"(divine ascendent) or a 現人神(which is what Sanae has become). Now that I look at the Yaoyorozu no Kami article, it seems to be a bit inaccurate.
Yes,Youkai is a general term for any supernatural creature...but only witihn the perspective of the generic modern japanese definiton. The closest english definition would be "monsters". Indeed aliens, ghosts, and fairies can all be considered monsters. But within gensokyo, "youkai" are considered to be a specific class of species. They are born to feed on humans either psychologically or physically. Fairies on the other hand, are only a physical manisfestation of nature itself, and has no intention of killing humans. Infact, fairies are more similar to spirits than youkai.
The main problem is that the "Generic Japanese" definiton and the "touhou" definition are contradicting each other at times. So all we need to do now...is to pick which side gets first priority. In other word.... When we say Kappa... which are we referring to first? Kids in raincoat with engineering tools in hand ... or bald humanoid turtles. Tren 17:33, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I am not exactly sure why you would say fairies are not youkai, especially when one of Cirno's titles is "Youkai of Ice."--Tosiaki 21:17, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Also, going along Perfect Memento, youkai (the species) are a kind of youkai (the more general term).--Tosiaki 21:22, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
However, it is true what you say, that fairies, just like Yaoyorozu no Kami, or Lunarians, do not exactly fit nicely into the "Youkai" category.--Tosiaki 21:30, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, ok then we have more of an understanding then! Basically, you wish to make a page (in addition to the category) for these and have subpages to each one. I see no reason why we shouldn't do that, so let's! Going completely on your word, if "Yaoyorozu no Kami" isn't a title and more of a "state" (I believe this is more of what you are looking for) then yes, revisions are necessary.

You do bring a good argument that Gensokyo's species tend to contradict "Real life" Cryptids, thus we'll have a header that says "Traditional" (working title) and "Gensokyo" (working title) which will have the historical version and then after that the universe ZUN created will have what ZUN defines as that cryptid.

So, that should cover all the bases; unless you have other things in mind? :3 ♥★♦ 22:40, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


Here is proposal for a revision of the template:

Any comments?--Tosiaki 23:14, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


I'd still like Divine, then under that "Deities" (includes Buddha, God, etc) and then "Spirits" (Yaoyorozu no Kami etc) and then "Sacred beings" (Demons, Angels, etc) to be part of it somewhere.

"Other things"

  • I'd also like to omit "Mainly from outside" as the definition we will have should serve the purpose of it.

I'll make my version later, unless u demand immediate action. ♥★♦ 23:58, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

That idea doesn't quite make sense since Yaoyorozu no Kami are deities.

Also, it only makes sense to split out those that are mainly from outside Gensokyo.--Tosiaki 00:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I'll let Yaoyorozu no Kami be a deity then.

I can make the argument that if we are using that, then vampires, Arahitogami, in fact I dare say everyone are suspiciously "spirited away" by a certain someone... and makes this a poor category. ♥★♦ 00:09, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Vampires have been specified to be residents of Gensokyo, and so would not belong in that category. Sanae Kochiya was not a "spirited away human" - she was one who went to Gensokyo herself. If you think this is a poor category, then you have not read Perfect Memento enough.

Moreover, there is a trouble with defining "divine." This is as opposed to "Human" and "Youkai" with very clear definitions given out.

In any case, I do think there shouldn't be a problem with implementing this revision immediately.--Tosiaki 00:14, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Sadface... but SDM was spirited away... and Kanako spirited away the Shrine, it wasn't exactly Sanae's choice.
I read more than just PMiSS, SSiB, BAiJR and other articles were also put in my assessment.
I say hold on for the moment because some of the categorizations are still not quite right...

♥★♦ 00:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

We're not talking about buildings in the outside world, though - we are taking about species.--Tosiaki 00:58, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

This is true, but if those species LIVE in those buildings, and those buildings are spirited away, and those species just so happen to live within the building, I think that calls for adding them to the spiriting away list.
Also, the only documented vampires we have are those in SDM (we have PC-98, but as you said before those "don't count") and the only documented Arahitogami lives in the SPIRITED AWAY Moriya Shrine, this does in fact make them count, among the other species that exist in Gensokyo...
Plus, I hate the whole concept of that category, it just seems way too broad.

♥★♦ 01:19, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

This is going along what is said in Perfect Memento, not along the number of characters who have showed up as those species. It clearly stated that vampires are residents of Gensokyo. On the other hand, Yama and Shinigami are not. There is a clear difference here.--Tosiaki 01:24, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

You forgot that this is the perspective of Akyuu, who is not infallible and is restricted to whatever facilities she has at her disposal.
She probably looked at the SDM and went "Oh, that's a house full of vampires".
Or most likely, she relied on second-hand tales as she is in the Human village and probably can't travel to dangerous places such as Hell, or inaccessibility places like the moon, and the most of the creatures in Gensokyo probably don't even want to associate themselves with a human child and are faster to eat humans than they bear to talk to them...
Coupled with the fact she does not want to endanger the reincarnation process, she can't always be the sole source of information.

♥★♦ 01:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

It would be known, however, if Yama or Shinigami actually lived in Gensokyo. They are mainly in parts that are outside of Gensokyo.--Tosiaki 01:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Answer me this, who is this known to?
Can't be Aykuu,I don't see Shikieiki telling her this and Komachi is too busy slacking off to bother with her.
So the holes are beginning to get bigger and bigger...

♥★♦ 01:56, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Higan, Makai, the moon, the outside world - these are places one cannot usually get to from Gensokyo by normal means.--Tosiaki 02:02, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, lemme see if I can sort this out... Yes, we arn't talking about buildings lol, and yes, they are places no one cannot usually get to from Gensokyo by normal means. Also yes, Vampires are a residence to Gensokyo. However, this is Akyuu we're tallking about and Vampires in reality originated from the Western world. They're also recent, but Gensokyo is even more recent. I suggest just stating that the info we have about Vampires been residence of Gensokyo was only stated by Akyuu who has an chance of been wrong. With Arahitogami it depends. Sanae is the only know person to be this, and she's from the outside world. However, she was somewhat forced to move to Gensokyo for more faith, not spirited away. Also, Yama and Shinigami are indeed outside Gensokyo and many residence know this. On a plus note, Higan was rarely seen during PoFV. Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 02:39, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

In other words, Akyuu can't possibly know about this and shaking the credibility of it , things outside Gensokyo totally don't add up due to the Hakurei border , and Spirited Away is still a bad category imo since this fits almost all characters in Gensokyo.

♥★♦ 02:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


"Spirited away" seems to be an awkward choice of words as a category...since everyone would automatically assume they're yukari's victim (since it's one of yukari's title). Infact anyone has a chance of freely entering gensokyo without getting yukari involved... all you have to do is free yourself of any longing, cut all ties with the modern world, attempt to commit suicide, and Pop! You find yourself on muenzuka.(only to be eaten alive by emo hunting youkais) Anyways, What I would suggest is using the word "outsider" 外来人. The term is used only toward modern day humans that somehow crossed the hakurei barrier. I beleive its small enough to fit in under the "Human" page article with its own section heading. Tren 03:55, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, since "outsider" was what was originally used, I suppose that would work better.--Tosiaki 04:51, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that this might of look cleaner but with the same message still there.

--Hikaruxz 11:17, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Good idea, I guess, although I would prefer ※ since it is a little more noticeable.--Tosiaki 12:16, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

On a different topic, I beleive the Animal >> species section seems to be a bit unpolished and inconsistent. (im just gonna dump all my thoughts unceremoniously here lol) I don't get what we are focusing on... Any ordinary beasts that can be found in gensokyo, or ones where there are 妖獣youjuu/妖怪youkai versions of. Some of the articles starts off with describing the real world version with scientific information while some of them starts off with discription of the gensokyo youkai version. Why is there even a "beast" article in the Youakai section if youkai rabbits are in the "animal >> species" section? I find it ironic that the only tiger confirmed within gensokyo is the youkai kind yet it can't fit in our "youkai" category just because they don't have unique youkai specy name.

The funny thing about touhou is that we are given more information about the youkai version of a beast than its standard wild animal version. So my somewhat-drastic-proposal is... chuck any beast that has a youkai version into a brand new "Youkai >> beast" subcategory . I'm not gonna suggest calling the new category "youjuu" because the border between "youjuu" (ex. chen) and "youkai based on a beast" (ex. wriggle) is somewhat blurry. Description of the youkai version should get top priority in an article with "real world version" with its scientific mumbo-jumbo can be have its own article heading near the bottom of the page. Any known creatures in gensokyo that doesnt have a youkai version of(which is actually rare in touhou) can be placed in a "wild animal" category or something. Cryptid(幻獣) should have its own category since they are neither wild animals nor youkai (they are more divine in nature)... also hakutaku and kirin needs to be moved to this section.

bonus topic lol. Is Iku Nagae a standard youkai or a beast youkai. Oarfish...translated into Japanese is "Ryuguu to tsukai" (messenger of the sea palace). When the japanese first discovered the oarfish specy...they named it Ryuguu to tsukai because they imagined this must be what "an actual sea palace messenger" must look like. Iku (or any messenger) isn't based off of an oarfish. The oarfish is based off of Iku. Zun has hinted the connection between the two (saying that a dead body of a sea palace messenger has been discovered by humans before....the same way a dead oarfish was once discoverd washed ashore), but the answer has never been 100% clear. Tren 21:44, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The "animals" category does seem to be a bit off. My idea is to remove from the "animals" category the ones that have been found only as beast (as Tren suggested), and for those who have been both beast and animals, they can be repeated in both the "Animals" category and the "Youkai⇒Beast" category.--Tosiaki 22:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Of course i'm the one to say an opposite reaction to this...
  • The term beast is associated with youkai Mammals to Akyuu. Animals is a way of including anything that isn't mythological. Another thing is that making a tiger a type of youkai is also unnatural. The same type of animal can become different types of animals like with foxes; the youkai fox (Ran Yakumo) or the Kuda-gitsune. The main point of the animal category is that to list any animal. (And as an animal; they have the potential to become an animal youkai). A simple way of saying things is that a tiger youkai like Shou Toramaru is both a tiger and a youkai, but a tiger is nothing more than an animal. If you want to use Touhou facts then the beast is still an animal, just higher upped in intelligence.
  • Using science and non-touhou classifications is a cleaner way of categorization. It causes less confusion to people that are well aware of the creatures history outside of Touhou.
  • Adding any Touhou world information under the page will allow differences to be made clear. But, it is always important to say where this idea or concept came from to. ZUN didn't create the tiger nor did he create the Oni. Where something came from is important for comparisons (Or in the case or animal youkai, what this animal actually is).
  • As a correction, we are not given more information about the youkai version of a beast than its standard wild animal version. Most articles talk about the personal life story of that character and non-species related unique ability, not the species itself.
  • The fact is that you can only talk about the wild animal more than the youkai version becuase more exists in the first place. Your looking at really empty pages without it.
  • Iku Nagae is offically specied as Youkai (Oarfish) not Ryuguunotsukai as a specific type of youkai. (If some says they found a dragon messenger dead on the beach then i'll change my mind.)
  • If you separate animals and animal youkai then you would have two things that are both obviously the same thing in two different categorys which even without scientific knowledge would look unnatural.

--Hikaruxz 22:55, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Iku is not specied as Youkai (Oarfish). She is specied as 妖怪(竜宮の使い). Its difficult to gain official facts if you only read the unofficial english translation. 竜宮の使い can mean two different thing in japanese. It can mean ,literally, the messenger of the sea palace...or it could also mean "messenger of the sea palace" which is what a Regalecus russelii(oarfish) is called in Japanese. The Unofficial english translator just picked the latter definition for some reason, but officially, only Zun knows which definiton is correct. Think about it this way, when I say "sea angel"..am I talking about a divine messenger of the ocean...or an arctic sea slug. And yes, they did find a dead messenger of the sea palace (偶に、形跡や死体を人間に見つけられることがあるが、滅多に生きたままの姿を現す事はない) according to Iku's character profile. Tren 05:19, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

In your translation you left out the word 妖怪 (Youkai). I didn't read it off of the unofficial english, I read the Japanese. So 妖怪 is youkai and 竜宮の使い is messenger of the sea palace aka Regalecus russelii. In the end it's either then a messenger of the sea palace that turned into a youkai or a oarfish that turned into a youkai. I really don't know what a dead non-fish creature messenger looks like, but there nothing anywhere that say there found washed up dead (Regalecus russelii on the otherhand is found washed up dead). --Hikaruxz 05:34, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
SWR - Hisou
Komachi says she sees them occasionally in the river.
Yukari mentions about the biological creature's size.
Suwako mentions seeing them sun dried.
Aya and her Ecological Survey on the species.
Remilia mentioning that the oarfish being a rare species. (The translation is wrong and it doesn't have "fish" in it but the others support the fact that Iku is a youkai fish.)
Sakuya mentioning whenever found there usually dead.

Of course this is all just comming from character who may just be saying what they heard somewhere, but to the common person, Ryuguunotsukai is just a strange fish (Usually found dead). If it didn't have the 妖怪 (Youkai) portion then I wouldn't say anything about it being a oarfish. This is clearly ZUN raising a flag (Multiple times) saying "Oarfish". --Hikaruxz 06:05, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

The messenger of the sea palace Is a youkai. How else could you work under a dragon? To a common Japanese person, ryuuguu no tsukais are fictional beautiful women dressed in flowy scarves that lives at the bottom of the ocean (dressed similar to the classic japanese (天女) celestial). Or at least that's how they are often depicted in most folklore involving 竜宮城 (sea palace). In fact, lots of japanese children grew up with "Urashima-taro" , the story about a man who visits the sea palace and meets the princess there (and no, the princess doesnt look like an oarfish), in picture book form. Not many japanese people (who doesn't watch animal documentaries) would know that there's a big strange fish that's named after the classic folklore characters. When they first discovered the oarfish, they named it "messenger of the sea palace" because their long tails reminded people of the flowy scarves worn by the Original messengers of the sea palace.
And yes, Zun is cleary raising a flag saying "fish", but he never cleary says its true. Not once. Only a flag by all means. All the swr character does poke fun at her by not-so-subtley connecting her to the actual oarfish. In fact, it's an inside joke, touhou style. She is found by the river at times, she is related to the sea, she is rarely seen, she does make Sakuya want to cook grilled eel for some reason, she does make Yukari mention some large fish found outside the hakurei barrier, but never did they ever say she's an oarfish. So yes, the messengers of the sea palace are youkai. But no, Iku being a Regalecus russelii is not canon. More like fuel for fanon jokes. Zun does love to troll his own characters after all. Tren 06:15, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Cmbox images

Sorry it's been a long while! Anyway, I've got three images. The ones the left are from the wiki, and the right are mine:

  1. Replace this with my version
  2. Replace this with my version or a smaller version
  3. Replace this with my version

Any opinions or suggestions? Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 03:52, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Reupload on the same file name - KyoriAsh 06:13, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Great! As said, I'm more than happy to hear opinions or suggestions ^.^ Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 00:22, 25 February 2012 (UTC)