Talk:Unconnected Marketeers/Music

From Touhou Wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search

妖異達[edit]

I'm unsure if this is a typo on ZUN's part or not. 妖異 is a word roughly meaning "mysterious incident/occurance" but incidents in Touhou are usually called 異変. There's only once incident in-game so far, so 妖異 makes no sense to me IMO. Was it a typo of 妖怪達? Was it not? I don't know. Input appreciated. —Ennin (talk) 6:06, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

My first guess is it's another term people use similarly to 妖怪 and 妖魔? Google indicates it's used in that sort of context in other media; for instance it's the JP name of a species in Final Fantasy 14, there's a historical fantasy novel called 妖異の棲む城, etc. I'm inclined to believe it's not a typo atm? Gilde (talk) 06:15, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
It's probably best if it's not "Apparitions" (since that was used for 妖魔 in EoSD). I think "unexplained phenomena" covers both things and events at the same time. Also a "shower" is passing and short-lived by defintion. How about "A Shower of Rain and Unexplained Phenomena"?
Ennin (talk) 10:29, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Unlike 妖怪 and 妖魔, 妖異 can also just refer to things that are strange and bizarre, aside from youkai. So maybe something like "A Shower of the Mystical and Bizzare"? Since it does technically include youkai and the like as well.
(-O-) (talk) 10:43, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Yes, the word 妖異 mostly refers to strange occurrences, rather than strange beings, so I'm very in support of "A Shower of the Mystical and Bizzare".
Yamaxandu (talk) 13:14, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Not to be a stickler but 妖異 is one word and just means "anomaly" (literally "strange occurrence"). It'd be preferable not to add extra words that aren't there. I think "[A] Shower of Strange Occurrences" or "[A] Shower of Anomalies" is best then.
Ennin (talk) 16:11, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
That works just as fine in my opinion, although I suppose I prefer 'Strange/Mystical Occurance' to 'Anomaly' in this case.
Yamaxandu (talk) 16:25, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Title translations[edit]

The title screen theme 虹の架かる幻想郷 describes Gensokyo in the active, not passive voice, so the more accurate translation would be "A Rainbow-Spanning Gensokyo". The stage 2 boss theme 大吉キトゥン isn't stating that Mike herself is fortunate, but rather that she brings fortune to others. She's a "Kitten of Great Fortune". These are pretty straight-forward changes, but I wanted to mention it in the talk page here since song titles are pretty important. Flan27 (talk) 18:42, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I feel a little on the fence with translating "架かる" to "spanning" in this case. I feel like "over" would be a simpler translation, but either could work. I have this odd feeling that we are dealing with a rainbow bridge.... Code Slasher (talk) 19:42, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Title translations 2[edit]

It seems both of the translations done here (by Ennin and to a lesser extent Yamaxandu) and on THPatch (by me) were done independently within a couple of hours from one another (which makes sense given the timeliness of it). We were able to sort out most of them through Discord chat except a few, whose reasonings I'd like to go over below. Please comment in each sub-section to keep things clear. --Raazossaku (talk) 04:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

The Long-Awaited Omagatoki vs. The Long-Awaited Ōmagatoki[edit]

This is clearly more about style more than anything else, and fairly minor. The quandary here is that for both here and Legacy_of_Lunatic_Kingdom/Spell_Cards/Extra, the same kanji is being used: 異界「逢魔ガ刻」 for LoLK versus 待ちわびた逢魔が時, and in both cases the same reading applies: おうまがとき. I followed the precedent in the LoLK spell card "Ōmagatoki", but it looks like this doesn't follow the romanization style as is custom on TouhouWiki, nor does the one here currently which is "Omagatoki", but rather both should be "Oumagatoki" instead. However, as this term is known in English academia most often as Omagatoki or Ōmagatoki rather than Oumagatoki. I'm not sure what would be the best choice in this case. --Raazossaku (talk) 04:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Going by the Wiki's romanization precedent, it should be Oumagatoki. Really, anything that doesn't express おう as Ō would be fine. Ō is おお.
--Ennin (talk) 06:46, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
In that case, I say we should change both to Oumagatoki. Even if it's not as common, the term is still searchable, and it would be consistent and prevent more headache down the line. --Raazossaku (talk) 06:59, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
I disagree. In fact, it might cause even more headaches. Wikipedia has an article on "Omagatoki" and not "Oumagatoki" for one, and this is "逢魔が時" (which is almost the same as Wikipedia's "逢魔時") for another. If we are going by what we did for "Tōno" in "The Fantastic Tales from Tono", then we really should use "Omagatoki". Another option if we wanted to attempt to translate it is "twilight". Code Slasher (talk) 03:31, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Stars Falling on Tenma's Mountain versus Starry Mountain of Tenma[edit]

"Stars Falling" is a quite literal translation of 星降る. Idiomatically, "starry" seems to be the most commonly used equivalent. However, "of Tenma" here sounds a bit awkward as well. Would something like "Tenma's Starry Mountain" be natural enough here while preserving the proper meaning? --Raazossaku (talk) 04:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

What you say is true in part but I strongly believe 星降る was chosen intentionally over other words like 星の or 星々 (both being translatable to "starry"). "Star fall" matches quite nicely with Megumu's fight, as she's literally shooting stars at you all throughout. And tengu ("heavenly dogs") were originally demonifications of comets and shooting stars. I believe the literal meaning is the best choice here. I do think that I initially mis-conjugated the verb in English though. 降る is in the terminal form, so it should be "Stars Fall on Tenma's Mountain".
--Ennin (talk) 06:46, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
I don't think there's a need to assume it's terminal rather than attributive since the term is used in modern Japanese, nor is there necessarily a locative sense to derive an "on" from. I can understand a desire to differentiate it with similar terms, but I don't see anything to suggest that the term 星降る in Japanese is unusual to deserve a literal interpretation rather than its frequent rendering as "starry". Maybe "star-filled" or "star-studded" would be enough of a difference? If pressed, then I can see something like "Tenma's Star-Fallen Mountain" as a poetic choice. --Raazossaku (talk) 07:11, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
I am very much in favor of the word choice for "starry". It is short, concise, easy to understand, and gets the meaning across. My favorite would be the "Starry Mountain of Tenma". I am personally not a fan of going too much into poetic readings of song titles, those to me can be explored in derivative works, we should keep our translations as matter-of-factly as possible, without delving too much into interpretations. --Yamaxandu (talk) 17:39, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
To be frank, I don't think it's poetic or an alternate interpretation. I'm certain that 星降る is meant to be taken literally. Megumu's first card prefix 禍星 (calamitous star) refers to the word 妖星 (ominous star) which in turn refers comets as they were considered bad omens. Tsukasa's final spell in the extra stage uses 龍星 (ryuusei, dragon star), a pun on 流星 (ryuusei, meteor), and ends in の舞 (dance of) like all of Megumu's cards. Iizuna Gongen is a tengu god who rides a fox and sometimes manifests as a shooting star. Even Megumu's name is 龍 (りゅう but pronounced めぐむ). I see it as an open and shut case that the title is meant to be read as "Stars Fall on Tenma's Mountain" considering all the references to meteors/comets. I won't push for it more beyond this. Maybe someone else who thinks so will visit the talk page in the future.
--Ennin (talk) 22:33, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
I was having a think through this and think both interpretations are technically correct. I feel that the 星降る = 'starry' comparison comes from there being so many stars in the night sky that it makes it look like they're falling. I think this actually feels like a more poetic reading since you have to mentally step away from the literal 'falling stars' meaning to get to 'starry.' (I did a quick search but only came across this link.)
On the other hand, there's the literal translation (which to be honest is the one that came to mind when I first saw the theme's Japanese title). I prefer it personally, but would recommend a reword to make Tenma's Mountain the subject, as it is in the Japanese - We would get "Tenma's Mountain, Where Stars Fall". Anyway, leaving this here for consideration and potentially further discussion. Biggest Dreamer (talk) 08:39, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
I still don’t think “starry” is that off, but “Tenma’s Mountain, Where Stalls Fall” is also a very good choice.—Yamaxandu (talk) 09:22, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
That is certainly the original derivation of the expression, but I can’t find anything suggesting that it’s perceived as anything besides a fixed expression meaning something like “starry” or “star-filled”, or at least it is translated as thus without fail. I don’t believe in translating an idiomatic phrase into its component parts, but then again we have that with certain kotowaza in spell cards. If any of you want to change it to “Tenma’s Mountain, Where Stars Fall” I won’t object, although I would suggest leaving out the comma. I do think “Star-Fallen” is more poetic though a bit harder to parse, but using “on” when there is no target/goal in the original is strictly wrong in my opinion.—Raazossaku (talk) 22:01, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Dragon-King-Slaying Princess versus The Princess who Slew the Dragon King[edit]

On the one hand "Dragon-King-Slaying" seems a bit awkward, given the multiple hyphens in a row, but the phrasing allows for ambiguity whether it's referring to a singular Dragon King or multiple Dragon Kings, unlike the latter translation. On the other hand, I do think the second one is a bit more evocative and fantastical, which I believe captures the mood of the phrasing in 殺しの specifically. Either way appears to be a valid translation to me. --Raazossaku (talk) 04:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

This is tricky. First off, 殺し is attached to 龍王. 龍殺し (ryuu-goroshi) is already a word corresponding to the direct translation of "dragon slayer". The title just replaced 龍 with 龍王. So that first phrase is definitely "Dragon King Slayer". The issue is that "Dragon King Slayer Princess" is way too clunky in English, so I took the liberty to add hyphens where needed and changed it to "slayer" to "slaying" so it could roll off the tongue better. The title literally means "A Princess [that is] a Dragon King Slayer". Changing it to "The Princess Who Slew the Dragon King" is, in my opinion, misleading because in Touhou we know of the Dragon King's Palace at the Lunar Capital. That Dragon King is Watatsumi, the father of the Watatsukis, and there's no reason to believe he's dead and there multiple Dragon Kings in Japanese mythology. Using "the" would automatically lead people to assume Watatsumi. It can't be "a Dragon King" either because why would the title just be a singular random Dragon King? The only way the title makes sense is if 龍王 is plural. I think the current title is good as is. Perhaps the clunkyness problem stems from the fact that the princess isn't named in-title. Wouldn't "Princess Momoya, Slayer of Dragon Kings" be nice?
--Ennin (talk) 06:46, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
If it's just plurality that's the issue, how about "The Princess who Slew Dragon Kings" then or "The Princess, a Slayer of Dragon Kings" or even "The Slayer/Slaying Princess of Dragon Kings"? I don't agree with adding a name here, and the current title still feels too clunky and matter-of-fact. --Raazossaku (talk) 07:17, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Slayer Princess of Dragon Kings sounds very nice to me. It has a nice ring to it. Short, easy to understand and to the point. I think it is the best choice. --Yamaxandu (talk) 17:39, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
I've asked for a few more opinions, and they all seemed to suggest "Princess [Name], Slayer of Dragon Kings" independently, and it would be a logical choice if not for an explicit choice on our part to add a name where there was none. One person did suggest "Princess, Slayer of Dragon Kings" as well, so similar to that but without including the name there, which would solve that problem. I think that's interesting, and I think it's not too strange as the title of a song. Perhaps a few articles could be added or we could leave it as is. --Raazossaku (talk) 06:41, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Princess, a Slayer of Dragons sounds fine as well. I must admit, I don't really like the current title.--Yamaxandu (talk) 11:49, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
I feel that "Princess, Slayer of Dragon Kings" needs a 'The' at the start of it, otherwise it sounds to me like 'Princess' is a name. If the original 'Dragon-King-Slaying Princess' has too many hyphens, how about 'Dragonking-Slaying Princess' or 'Dragonlord-Slaying Princess'? Otherwise, there's the option to treat it the same as 人恋し神様 (A God That Misses People) and go with 'The Princess Who Slays Dragon Kings'. There's even the option of coining a word and going with something like 'Dracocidal Princess', though that might be a step too far... Biggest_Dreamer (talk) 21:32, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
The Princess Who Slays Dragon Kings is a very fine choice too. Not a fan of the rest, though. —Yamaxandu (talk) 21:47, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
I agree with The Princess Who Slays Dragon Kings. It's essentially a direct rephrasing of the current name but spacing it out to be less densely packed. --Raazossaku (talk) 01:47, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

The Rainbow-Colored World versus A World of Rainbow Colors[edit]

This is another one where it's more about the emotion evoked by the phrasing. In fact, this was also translated as "A World Colored with Rainbows" before the current version on here. Using "The World" suggests it literally referring to our world as being rainbow-colored, whereas using "A World" suggests that the world is being seen through rainbow-colored lenses. I also think the phrasing of the 虹色 part of it may also have a slight effect. Obviously I'm biased to my own translation "A World of Rainbow Colors", so I'd like to gauge more opinions. --Raazossaku (talk) 04:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I am indifferent between those two choices as I originally wrote "A World Colored of Rainbow". It's solemn and poetic, like ZUN feels in the music comment. It should always be "A World" (not "The World"), though, because the comment talks as if it yet to pass. It's a fantasy, a non-existing thing.
--Ennin (talk)) 06:46, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
I like the poetry of "A World Colored of Rainbow" but it implies a verbal action ("coloring") having been performed on the world. Maybe a bit too nitpicky, as I'm happy with that as the choice. But there must be some justification for having edited it out, so I'd like to hear other opinions first as well. --Raazossaku (talk) 07:20, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
So look, I am not going to defend this to death, because the longer I look at it, the more "A Rainbow-Colored World" and "A World of Rainbow Colors" start to look absolutely the same to me. I can only tell you what made me make this decision, and it is 1. My interpretation of the comment, which made me think of the pharse "seeing the world through rose tinted glasses", which is similar to "rose-colored" which in turn gave me "A Rainbow-Colored World", and 2. To me, "A World Colored with Rainbows" sounds just kind of like the type of sentence you get while using machine translations. I can't really explain it, to me, when reading it, it just sounded wonky and not like a song title? I hope it makes sense, those are all just my personal opinions, at the end of the day, the translations are meant to serve the fandom, and if people, in general, feel better about "A World of Rainbow Colors", then it is absolutely fine. What I would be against is anything other besides those two forms, because thus far every other one I've seen or thought of does carry some sort of personal interpretation throughout it which can distort the original meaning. --Yamaxandu (talk) 17:39, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
As the main issue was with the article "a" versus "the", I think "A Rainbow-Colored World" is a good enough choice here that minimizes too much change here.--Raazossaku (talk) 06:42, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

ルナレインボー[edit]

I had never heard of a "lunar rainbow" before and was not even aware of such concept. While working on a non-English translation of the game, I simply just decided to translate it as "lunar rainbow" as well. However, not long after I come across the English word "moonbow", which describes this phenomena and, in fact, looked like the correct word for it. One more google search for ルナレインボー and you get... a moonbow, exactly as described! Is this another "バックダンサー" situation? It seems to me that "moonbow" is simply the correct translation for ルナレインボー here. The only thing making me not be 100% certain about wanting a change for the music title specifically is Chimata's dialogue, which uses 月虹 instead. So I was wondering, do we keep the title as "Lunar Rainbow" and the dialogue unchanged? Change the music title to "Moonbow" and keep the dialogue? Change both? Change neither? I think this is a discussion worth having regardless? -- Mddass (talk) 06:06, 20 May 2021 (UTC) Edit: Did some more research and I just find it odd that every time "lunar rainbow" is mentioned online it's always in the context of "it's a moonbow, but it's sometimes also called a lunar rainbow", seldom directly used? -- Mddass (talk) 06:11, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

It _is_ an existing (albeit an uncommon) term, so I think it should be kept as it is. ZUN using Lunar Rainbow for the song title sort of confirms to me that he "prefers" that translation over Moonbow. You can see this in the stage title 月虹市場 ~ Lunar Rainbow Market. ☢ Quwanti 07:55, 20 May 2021 (UTC)