Talk:Urban Legend in Limbo/Music

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Wrong address[edit]

I somehow managed to start on a Spell card page by the wrong address. Um, please do what you will with this.
I am Risa. Best of fortune be with you. (talk) 23:54, 29 December 2014 (UTC)


Whoa, hang on now. I agree that "バトルフィールド" translates to "battlefield", but "華" is "flower" and "狭間" can mean "between" or "arrowslit"/"balistraria". "Hanahazama" is a bit of a cop-out in my honest opinion. Should we then call this song "Battlefield Between the Flowers"? Code Slasher (talk) 21:03, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

On the other hand, "狭間の森" translates to "Between the Forest". Should we then call this song "Flowers Between the Battlefield"? Code Slasher (talk) 21:12, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
"Flowers Between the Battlefield" doesn't make a lot of sense, but "Flowers Amid(st) the Battlefield" means roughly the same thing, right? Or "flower", singular, if you interpret it as referring to Kasen herself. --Prime32 (talk) 22:24, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Quoting from cuc on the MotK forums: "華狭間, lit. "flowery interstitial space" (狭間 can also mean "ravine" and "arrow/gun slits in a fortification"), likely pronounced "hanahazama", is not an existent word. But most [Japanese] people's first reaction upon seeing the title would be the Battle of Okehazama, which was the battle that first established Oda Nobunaga's place as a great warlord."
Also, upon Googling "狭間の戦" (ie. "Battle of ____hazama") myself, I couldn't find any results that didn't refer to Okehazama or a pun on said name, which lends credence to it probably being Okehazama specifically that the song title refers to.
Thus, since the "華狭間" part is most likely a play on the name of a location in Japan, I'd say it ought to be kept in Japanese. (It also doesn't make sense to translate it as a longer phrase like "Between the Flowers", since it's just a couple regular nouns squashed together; if you're really set on putting it in English, it'd be something like "Flower Ravine".) Gilde (talk) 23:11, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Wait, Kasen's stage has a ravine on it! Trees in bloom are on either side. Due to these context clues and no clues leading to that warlord except for the word looking like "Okehazama", my strong suggestion is that we change the title's translation. What about "Battlefield of the Flower Ravine" or "Battlefield of the Flower Chasm"? I really cannot be satisfied with leaving it as it is, as we did not keep "Kobito" as a species. Code Slasher (talk) 21:14, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
So, like. You're saying the song is named what it is just because of the scenery in her stage? ZUN tossed "flower" and "ravine" together for that reason alone and called it a day? I wouldn't call that a "context clue"; grasping at straws, maybe. There's a hole in the ground, sure, but those trees are hardly unique to her stage, and they don't particularly look like they're in bloom if you ask me. I really don't think they have the importance you're assigning to them.
The battle of Okehazama, on the other hand, is a historical allusion that most Japanese fans would quickly recognize, and it's completely in keeping with ZUN's usual modus operandi to make an such an allusion. (I can bring up a bunch of comments from of Japanese fansites specifically pointing out the Okehazama reference too, if you want?) You said that translating it as 'Hanahazama' is a cop-out, but in my opinion it's far, far lazier to just do a flat translation of the kanji and ignore the cultural reference. Gilde (talk) 21:50, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
And, like, I could still be totally wrong about the Okehazama thing? If someone has stronger evidence for it being a reference to something else, I'm all for it, but "oh well there's some trees on her stage" doesn't mean much in comparison to this. Gilde (talk) 21:51, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
The trees on the stage are simply a supporting argument, but the ravine/chasm on her stage is completely unignorable when looking for rationale behind the title. Touhou has a ton of references to flowers as well. "You're saying the song is named what it is just because of the scenery in her stage?" Actually, mostly yes, but she may be the flower, as Prime32 said. Code Slasher (talk) 02:33, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Again, I'm pretty sure you're assigning too much importance to incidental background details and ignoring the allusion that I've already spelled out. I feel like I'm just going to be repeating myself at this point. Could someone else please chime in on this? Preferably someone better-versed in Japanese culture, who could make a more definitive statement on the likelihood of the Okehazama thing? Gilde (talk) 03:17, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Look, it is not that I am ignoring the possible link. It is that there does not seem to be much evidence linking Kasen to the warlord. Code Slasher (talk) 06:23, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Iiiiii'm going to have to eat my words now, I suppose. Now that the game's been out for a while, I took another look around at Japanese fans' comments on the title, and there's not much of a consensus at all on whether it's meant to reference Okehazama. Some people have suggested that it's indeed in reference to the ravine in the BG/the divide Kasen creates in the barrier, some other people have suggested that it's a veiled reference to Kasen possibly being in "the space between" being a hermit and an oni, some people have mentioned that "花狭間" (same word with a different kanji for 'flower') is an actual word referring to a type of latticework, etc. etc. So, like, I was wrong; "Battlefield of the Flower Ravine" is probably fine. I'm sorry for insisting to the contrary. :/
Just one minor thing I'd like to add with that said, though: could we use "Divide" instead of "Ravine"? It covers more of the potential meanings (the gap in the barrier, Kasen potentially being 'between' hermit and oni, etc.) in addition to the physical ravine in the stage background. Would that be all right? Gilde (talk) 01:54, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
When faced with a situation like this, I like to look at what other pages on this wiki have used. We have plenty of possible sources, but my vote would be for "threshold", but then that would make for a sort-of clunky translation to "Battlefield of the Flower Threshold". Still, what do you think? Code Slasher (talk) 18:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
"Threshold" sounds good to me too, actually, since it covers a lot of 狭間's possible meanings. It doesn't look too clunky (to me at least?) either. Gilde (talk) 09:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
If '花狭間' (hanazama) is an actual word for a floral lattice pattern, wouldn't that be better than a literal translation? Something like "Floral Lattice Battlefield". Just wanted to throw that out there. Polaris (talk) 03:41, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
The problem is that "華狭間" was used, not "花狭間". However, ZUN may have gone for another one of his famous puns, so maybe this information should be added as a note. Code Slasher (talk) 07:42, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
This is clearly due to Kasen (華扇). It's no different. But yes, the hanahazama is specifically a lattice pattern used on the top of doors of wooden buildings, and often seen on shrines and temples. You can google it for tons of examples. If we can find a word that can also reference this then I think it's probably good enough. Drake Irving (talk) 22:38, 22 June 2015 (UTC)


Where is "victory" in this? Because "公正なるマダム" is "Madam Justice" from Shin Megami Tensei IMAGINE, we should probably call this "Justice Scramble" or "The Fair and Legal Scramble", right? Code Slasher (talk) 22:38, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh, that part. My reasoning was like this:
公正なる --> equitable, just, fair and legal, et cetera. I dunno if justice or legality have much to do with what's actually going on in the story (namely, the characters having a free-for-all battle over the Occult Balls), so I went with "equitable" instead.
奪い合い --> struggle, scramble, et cetera, with the specific implication of something being competed for. I figured just saying the English words "scramble" or "struggle" wouldn't convey the 'competition' aspect quite as well, so I added 'for victory' to make the implication more obvious... but now that you mention it, it'd be fine without "for victory" in there anyway.
So, like, how does "Fair and Equitable Scramble" sound? Gilde (talk) 22:59, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
"Equitable" seems redundant and almost inaccurate, but we should probably have something more than just "fair" to add the intended emphasis. Either way, we really should get rid of things that do not exist in these titles, such as "for victory". Code Slasher (talk) 02:42, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Okay yeah, I'll admit it's redundant. But "inaccurate"? "Equitable" literally means "fair". It's the dictionary definition.
It's not like I'm super partial to any particular suggestion here, though-- there's plenty of similar words to choose from-- so like, feel free to just go with what you want. Gilde (talk) 03:21, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
"Equitable" usually has a strong legal connotation with it (which, like you said, does not have much to do with this game), but I found out something. This could be the word "fair" in the form of a verb. I know this is a stretch, but we could assume that it is being used in an adverbial style. Therefore, we could go with a form of what you have: "Fair Scramble". Code Slasher (talk) 06:23, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Wait, it does have a legal connotation? Oh. Sorry, then. My bad "Fair Scramble" is fine by me. Gilde (talk) 06:39, 11 May 2015 (UTC)