Touhou Wiki talk:Copyrights

From Touhou Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search

Archives
Archive 1

Summary

Consensus has been reached on the following.

  • All uploaded whole RAWs, including text and scans, and whole translations, including game patches, translated text, and scanlations, are in violation of copyright where permission was not obtained (if applicable).
  • Material violating copyright may only be taken down with notice from the author
    • Reasons: Non-harm, decrease in Wiki quality, doujin, lack of consensus
  • Fair Use does not apply to whole RAWs or translations made from it
  • Effort should not be made to contact authors where copyright has been violated by the wiki.
    • Reasons: Possible headaches, lack of consensus

Official Works

  • ZUN's Terms of Use does not cover translations
    • Translations are not considered doujin activity
  • ZUN's Terms of Use permits screenshots

Unofficial Works

  • Copyright lies solely with the author. ZUN's Terms of Use does not apply.

Introduction

Good morning!

I've been wondering what this Wiki's stance towards uploads of both official and inofficial as well as copyrighted printworks is.

The reason why I'm asking is that most of the official printworks, as well as a lot of inofficial ones, have been uploaded here, either by means of directly uploading the pages, translating the text, copying the text, linking to .rars or two or more of these at once.

While, in the case of the official printworks, quite a few of them are based on the versions during their state of serialization in various magazines and what not (not sure what the legal consensus is since they are, more than likely, not reprinted), all of them (at least the finished ones) have been released as individual books, copyrighted and with remarks regarding illegal redistribution.

While I am aware that most people do not really care about such notices, especially because people argue in favour of uploading not being illegal reproduction a lot, I still think that, being one of the biggest (if not the biggest) sources of information regarding Touhou, we should be setting a good example by providing information while respecting the wishes of the respective authors and companies, which is why I suggest that we remove the uploaded material in question in all of its forms (translations maybe being an exception, at least only the translations, which would be hard to do in the case of manga, but feasible).

I also think that the same should apply to doujinshi and other inofficial works for pretty much the same reason.

I really think that we could also pay our respects to all the work and effort put in by the authors of printworks and everything else we enjoy so much. If we have the chance, why not do it? There would be no Touhou Wiki if it weren't for all the work put in by the great amount of artists and writers (as well as other people) involved in the production of the inofficial printworks, and, of course, the people who created the official printworks as well. If we are supposed to provide people with information, then we could, in the case of printworks, maybe stick with plot summaries. Uploading them, on the other hand, really seems more like a way to spit in the faces of everyone involved. I'm certain that there are only good intentions here, however, sometimes we should reconsider even those, especially if we do wind up completely disrespecting someone.

So, what do you guys think? --Lepetit89 10:04, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the plot summaries. If they are ok to be freely distributed then I wouldn't mind if people share it (cause that's probably what the authors intended anyways), but if it is copyrighted then we probably shouldn't be putting them up. Just like the music and game sections, we don't provide any download links aside from links that are provided straight from the author's website, so we should also follow it when it comes to print-work. Of course, if it is user-translated (ie: manga) I'm on the fence with that one. From my understanding, some translation groups acquire permissions from the author to translate and freely distribute it, while others don't? --Tsukihime 15:18, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I wasn't aware of that, but it certainly sounds like an interesting concept. How would we go about finding out which authors have granted permission for redistribution and which haven't? --Lepetit89 21:54, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
First, let's split the uploaded material into groups. We have text info, game patches, scanlations, RAWs, subs.
Text info - Any text directly appropriated from a source. This includes scenarios from games, lyrics, omake.txt, PMiSS, GoM, etc.
Game patches - Patch designed to modify the game in some way, including adding translations. Includes EoSD, PCB, etc patches, and doujin soft patches.
Scanlations - Manga/doujinshi with English text added onto them. Includes SaBND, Happy Flame Time.
RAWs - Unaltered scans in Japanese. Some OSP scans have been uploaded.
Subs - Video (copyrighted, sold) with subtitles. Includes For Busy Person series.
I will get RAWs out of the way first by saying that there is little reason to have them here, except maybe to provide them to scanlation groups.
Now, with text info, the main reason they are up there is to provide concrete information to English readers. I do not believe these are too intrusive (unless it's a novel that's being translated). The only exception to this rule are game endings, as ZUN explicitly mentioned in his Terms of Use.
Game patches I see as justifiable given that they require the full game to be obtained first, although they can still be a breach on copyright. For example, said person does not wish for the game code to be modified in any way, not to mention the hacking tools needed to implement one, although some notable Japanese derivatives do exist that implement this (Sakuya UFO, DS+FW).
This leaves scanlations and subs (and novels). I will lump them into one category. Both involve putting in English text directly over copyrighted material. This is where the grey area comes in, and whether you accept this or not really depends on whether you view scanlations as ethical or not. Scanlations are justified in that they are bringing in material from one language to another, a service not offered by the original author. In the case of Touhou Project, this is very true. This is also the case for most doujin works (exceptions including Musou Kakyou).
Unlike game patches, it is impossible to implement a check. Wheras game patches require the original game to work, no scanlation can check whether I own an IRL copy of SaBND. If we do take down scanlations, and I have a physical copy, then I am still unable to enjoy the manga. To upload a script is inadequate, as it is unsatisfying. Offering scanlations to everybody, including those who don't buy a physical copy, is preferable to offering scanlations to nobody, and shafting those who bought the physical copy. For the aforementioned reasons, I am in support of keeping scanlations uploaded/linked. Unless some C&D notice comes our way, keep them up. Kiefmaster99 20:19, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I agree with your reasoning regarding game patches and RAWs, especially since the latter really are no more than illegally distributed material distributed with the intent of having someone else put it into a legal greyzone.
Regarding scanlations and translations of novels; I understand your reasoning, but I do not agree with it, at least not entirely.
While I do agree that there should be ways of making certain things accessible to people whose knowledge of foreign languages is not sufficient to enjoy certain media, I do not think that this should allow us to possibly go against the will of the creators of said media. It is also possible to appeal to the creators to have things translated into another language, the alternative being to learn the language if you're hellbent on reading/watching whatever you're interested in.
To me (and I can tell that you do not necessarily disagree with that), respecting the creator of something comes first. You bring up the example of someone who bought the book but cannot read it, therefore justifying the upload of scanlations. I understand your point and I really, really hate to say it (especially because I've been there myself, started buying official printworks back when I could barely understand a word written in them), but that is, simply put, tough luck for the guy who bought a book he cannot read.
As you and I are most certainly aware, the internet is no place full of white knights. The guy in the example you gave is an exception (though being one of those guys myself really doesn't help my argumentation, I guess), and I do not think that we should upload material to help one guy out who bought something rightfully while providing thousands of others with things they have not bought, completely going against what the creator might have intended. It sounds harsh, but if you buy something you cannot use, then you've got to be happy with what you can get your hands on (legally or without disrespecting someone), and plot summaries should be sufficient.
What I absolutely do agree with is that the opinion of the creator himself is of relevance as you implied with your suggestion to leave things up for distribution until a C&D notice flies by. The last part, however, I do not agree with. If we find ourselves in a situation in which we cannot be sure what the creator we're supposed to respect would accept, we cannot assume that he's totally okay with it even though we have not the slightest hint to base that assumption on.
C&D notices are useful for both the sender and the recipient, but the internet is one big place and I don't think we can assume that the creator of any given work has enough time to browse through the plethora of websites he can find his works on so he can send them a C&D notice.
In such a case, I think that the best way to make sure that we're not going against the will of a creator would be to simply ask him, plain and simple. If he doesn't want translations/scanlations of his works here, take them down and stick with plot summaries or whatever we are allowed to use. Waiting for a C&D notice, on the other hand, would be nothing more than an insult. You cannot expect someone to go through so much effort if all it boils down to is that WE want to (possibly illegally) upload THEIR works without bothering to do so much as sending them an e-mail and politely ask if they'd mind if we uploaded translations of them. No matter how you look at it, that's disrespect, plain and simple.
If we want to upload their works and need a permission, then we should be the ones asking, not the other way around.
That would be the one option I could agree with and I think it would be fairly simple since most Doujin circles have both websites and e-mail addresses.
As I pointed out before, respecting the creator of a given work while distributing information should be our top priority - and if writing an e-mail is all we have to do to do that, then let's do it. --Lepetit89 21:54, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
In short, you are suggesting that we ask for express permission before uploading/linking anything (correct me if I'm wrong). I still think this would unjustifiably decrease the quality of this wiki and would lead to problems.
I brought up game patches and everything else because they operate in a similar way to scanlations. They involve a group translating and distributing a copyrighted product without express permission of said author. Game patches include elements of the original, so technically part of the original is being distributed as well, so your argument must extend to game patches. All game patches would have to go, regardless of whether a legitimate copy is obtained or not, since the author's material is still being distributed.
The fact that you agreed to game patch distribution, at least in my mind, means either one of two things - either you didn't know what patches contain, or you agree with distribution with the end result of gain for the author. If it is because of the latter, then I must raise two points. Some authors do exist that don't want their works being distributed outside of Japan, even if it does result in monetary gain, causing harm, in which case we would have to seek permission. As well, if the author has no intentions of translating, then there is little monetary loss, and little harm being done.
I'm pretty sure ZUN's already difficult to contact (Re: Endings) and probably won't make any official statement regarding translations (or at least, I don't know of one). In the event he doesn't respond, then the wiki would be left with very few patches, scanlations, etc, and at least in this case, I would be more willing to defer to the side of waiting for a C&D.
To not distribute a translated source is something I find very troubling as well. One, there would be no resource to go to for endings. Even posting ending summaries is controversial due to the "Don't post endings" clause.
I suppose the other question is whether authors actually care. Any attempts to answer that question would be pure speculation. What I can say however is that I was involved in a translation project that started without permission from the author, which then turned into implicit permission from him when he cooperated with me, since he was contemplating making an English patch anyways. Perhaps due to this experience I am biased in my answer.
If you do want to contact authors though, go ahead. I still support keeping works up until told otherwise.
On another note, you'll probably want more input than from just me. Kiefmaster99 01:17, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Edit: To summarize/condense my arguments thus far:
Any policy based on asking for permission first before uploads/linking must apply to all uploads, including game patches. This policy is too restrictive since a) it's denying the fanbase source material (official including endings), b) in the event that authors don't respond, we can't upload it, possibly if defunct as well, c) at least with regards to official material, ZUN might not (choose to) respond, putting us in a worse position. Given the choice between a policy based on asking first, and a policy based on waiting to be asked, I choose the latter. Some points I have not raised yet but come to mind as well are d) possible enforcement issues/headaches.
A policy based on assumed non-malevolence rather than strictly asking permission is something I support, and for the most part already exists on this wiki, involving a) posting of material if it is not offered in English by the author b) taking down material if it is offered in English. This policy assumes the following: a) most doujin groups have no intention of translating their work in the future, b) the target audience are people who live in Japan and don't browse this wiki, c) are indifferent to what happens beyond their intended audience, d) of those able to read English and Japanese, the original source is preferred.
ZUN is available in Twitter, thought - KyoriAsh 11:06, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
If we can get into contact with him regarding translations (and endings while I'm at it), great! Kiefmaster99 13:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Some things I'd like to add: First, subs for movie files can be distributed in the .ass file format, which contains just the subs and not the video. It's roughly the same as distributing a game patch. 2. Distributing a .ass file, a game patch, or a fully scanlated doujinshi are all unambiguous copyright violations, as the copyright owner has the sole right over translations and distribution. Distributing a game patch isn't much different in terms of copyright violation than distributing the full game patched, although naturally most people would be more upset about the latter and thus more likely to actually do something about it. -- Qazmlpok 13:48, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
I see, I really didn't give too much thought to patches and possible infringements, thank you for clearing that up, Qazmlpok and Kiefmaster99! Regardless, I really don't think the quality of a wiki, considering it's a source of information, is determined by what it provides for download. For the aforementioned reasons, I'll be sticking with my suggestion to take down all content that poses copyright infringement until we have permission by the respective creator to leave it up for download.
I think it's a model that is fair, even though we might have to abandon certain luxuries (which we weren't supposed to have in the first place if the creator does not want them here). I'd rather stick with information than downloads since it is really not for us to decide what a creator wants/should do with his work.
That, however, raises another question since I'm not particularly familiar with this procedure: how are we going to decide on something? --Lepetit89 15:32, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Okay, here's my stance on the matter. Whether any of this is legal or moral or not I am not going to bother arguing about. The important point is that this is an English wiki, and for English fans to really enjoy the Touhou universe (or any Japanese series) they need English material. If it bothers you that translations are hosted here, then they can be hosted elsewhere and linked. If even links are not allowed, then we might as well not even have an English Touhou Wiki at all, and just document everything in Japanese, because if translations are banned then the only people who would be able to make use of any permitted documentation would have to understand Japanese anyway! Keiji 16:47, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Whether there are legal or moral issues at hand is the entire point of this discussion, all of which would be cleared up by directly contacting the source of the respective game/doujinshi/anything. As Kiefmaster99 pointed out earlier with his example of the translation project he was involved in, there IS support of English fandoms developing translations and other things themselves.
I really don't think that there is so much at stake here as it seems. Using the suggested model of requesting permission from the respective creators depends entirely on what they say - preemptively assuming that they'll turn down the request boils down to the same as admitting that we ARE using and spreading works in ways which were not intended by their creators. And if they do turn down the request or are inclined to do so (assuming we do not ask), should we really be fine with doing things against their will? Worst case they'll stop working entirely, depending on who they are, even though it might seem extreme, but I'm sure that, at the very least, it's disappointing for them, which is why the model of requesting permission has another use:
I think the greatest problem is that the two sides involved in this huge conflict might be somewhat inconsiderate - most of the internet does not care about the feelings of the creator of something in the slightest, but sometimes creators are being inconsiderate as well. I think that we all should be able to enjoy things, but if a creator does not want his works to spread outside of certain countries for whichever reason, then who are we to judge him? Instead, we should, at least for now, focus on our efforts on reaching out to those creators who don't mind, focus on those who are fine with other people translating and spreading their works as long as it doesn't cause them damage. Assuming that none of them will agree will only cause them to turn away and this conflict between internet and creators will never end. I think we've got a great chance, and we should seriously consider using it. If more and more creators agree, perhaps others will do so as well, and that would certainly be a kind of movement I'd enjoy to be part of, and I'm sure most of you can agree with that. For that reason, I still stick with my suggestion of providing downloads and translations only for things which are okay with their creators. --Lepetit89 19:00, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Japanese people are ridiculously possessive about their work, I have nearly first hand experience of this. I seriously don't think you'd get anywhere if you went and asked them all. Keiji 20:16, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Regrading legality. I am not too familiar with copyright laws, but can this specific Japanese copyright enforceable here (doujins)? If not, then this is mostly a question of ethics.
My previous argument remains unchanged. However, I do wish to provide more information with regards to the current stance of this wiki.
De jure: "Do not submit copyrighted work without permission!" and ZUN's terms of use.
For the usual activities in doujin (uploading material on a homepage, selling them in a convention or in a shop at your own expense), or doujin material (derivative comics, stories, games, CGs, goods, cosplay), you do not need to notify me or request my permission.
De facto: Linking: Only subject to the non-malevolence policy I posted above (if not offered by author, link it). Comics "but in some cases the pages also contain untranslated stuff, so as to be complete and to facilitate retrieval for translation" (2006). If linking, ignore copyright. If linking, ignore ZUN's terms of Use #1 (game patches).
On-Site: Possible violation of ZUN's terms of use #1 (character portraits). Honor ending policies.
It seems that in the history of the Touhou Wiki, and perhaps now as well, it acted as a major translation/scanlation hub, further backed by its ties with Gaku-Touhou as well, and not just as a mere database.
The doujin nature of the Touhou series must be considered. Doujin works that are derivatives of the Touhou Project do not require express permission of the author, even if his characters are used, etc (ZUN's terms of use). ZUN doesn't require permission out of reasons of practicality. He also doesn't enforce a strict interpretation of his rules either if he sees a bona fide work (DS+FW). The only time I can recall that he intervened was when he expressed concerns that an animation product might be mistaken as his own. If translations were a problem, he would've intervened by now.
Regarding decision-making. There is no formal process. Consensus-reaching seems to be the model most wikis use. I don't recall any major incident where this was an issue. The most heated process I was ever involved in was the whole UNL debacle, possibly the Wikia split too. In any case, a (super)majority support would need to be sought before any action, unless you want to risk edit wars and such. Polls can be used to attempt to measure consensus, but should not be binding. Kiefmaster99 20:48, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Nazeo's Fair Use argument

No contest guys, we're in the clear!

What we do is listed in Fair Use, so we're perfectly legit!

Fair Use falls under "commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship." and we do all 7 of these 7 entitlements.

Commentary: Touhou is built on the fans so heck yeah this applies! We give what we believe is the true intent and spirit of the Character while allowing the fans fill in the holes!

Criticism: We do have our wars such as if Mokou is better than Kaguya and we do say how awesome ZUN's games are! So we are under that title too!

News Reporting: We are here to tell people what's new, what it's about and deliver it via public access! This my friends, is a public good, and no one can take that away from us!

Research: Do we do our homework on Touhou? That is a big understatement! We make sure that everything is update and free from vandals, making this website one that you can trust!

Teaching: You don't know what Touhou is? Well guess what, we'll teach you all about it! We exist to fill this function as well!

Library Archiving: Can you use this as a resource so that the public may access? Of course! Be our guest! Again, we have fit this label nicely!

Scholarship: What? You want to use Touhou for your scholarship paper? Go on, you crazy kid! Although that may be difficult, a true fan knows how to figure it out and also knows that this too is legit!

See? We fit every single form of Fair Use, so I don't see the debate at all.

On top of that, need I remind that that this is ZUN's creation, not those fan guys?

If ZUN's ok with it, then the others by default should be too.

They can't call it like they own it and yeah, I sound very harsh, but I believe if you truly love Touhou you'd just do it solely for that, not for the credit. This is why I respect ZUN so much; he doesn't have to copyright Touhou, he let's you run wild with them!

He doesn't care if anyone likes Touhou, it's what makes him happy and for that I am deeply moved at his stance.

He even let's these guys make money off of him!

That proves even further that he isn't in it for the money, just for the thing he loves!

I am not against the Creators of fangames, in fact I love them dearly as if ZUN himself created them, they are some of the most creative things I ever saw!

The line gets drawn when stuff like this happens though...

As far as the argument goes, I believe that they should be credited and that's when the royalties end.

Of course, you don't have to agree with me, but that's how I see it...

♥★♦ 02:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Response to Nazeo's Fair Use argument

That's not really how fair use works. I'm not a lawyer, but I know that you can't upload an entire movie, criticise it, and expect to get away with it. It is the criticism itself that would be covered by fair use, not the critic. Uploading a single page of a doujin and discussing the doujin, using that page as a sample/example of a point, could be considered fair use.
On top of that, need I remind that that this is ZUN's creation, not those fan guys?
ZUN gives doujin artists permission to use his characters and settings. That does not mean the same artists are required to make their materials completely public. Even if ZUN had something similar to copyleft in his permission statement, it still wouldn't mean this wiki would have permission to upload doujin works, as ZUN doesn't give this wiki or any others free reign to upload his games/print works. Even though a doujinshi uses copyright characters, the doujinshi is still copyrighted on its own and thus has the same restrictions as if it was a purely original work. This also goes for doujin works where the artists don't have ZUN's official sanction, e.g. doujinshi featuring regular anime/manga characters from whatever the flavor of the month is. -- Qazmlpok 02:48, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Uh... I still got 6 out of 7, so even if you said what is true, we're still good!

♥★♦ 02:50, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

You're missing the point. The point is that it doesn't matter how many you can claim (scholarship is a joke. Criticism isn't really done on this wiki. Research probably doesn't apply either. Same for teaching. I have no idea if this place could be considered a library. News reporting is iffy. Commentary is the only one I'd say definitely applies to this wiki) because fair use applies to each individual "copyright issue", not the site as a whole. Another example: You can't upload some new video game and put it in a news report and call that fair use. You can talk about the release of a new video game and post the cover, or a self-taken screenshot from the game as part of the news report and that would be considered fair use. You can't criticize the game and post a download link to the full game. You can criticize a game and post a youtube video of that part of it that sucks. You can't post the download link to a game and claim that because you're a news reporting and criticism site you can just post whatever copyright material you want. See the difference yet? -- Qazmlpok 03:08, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

1 out of 7 is still making us legit... so...

(I swear I'm not being difficult on purpose...) ♥★♦ 03:11, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

And as this site could be considered commentary site, this site is able to comment upon Touhou and use copyright works in a manner that respects Fair Use. This does not mean that the site has the right to post translations to any copyright work (The right to create a translation is held solely by the copyright holder). This does not mean that the site has the right to distribute full copies of the works (The right of distribution is held solely by the copyright holder).
At least read the wikipedia article.
The four factors of analysis for fair use set forth above derive from the classic opinion of Joseph Story in Folsom v. Marsh, 9 F.Cas. 342 (1841), in which the defendant had copied 353 pages from the plaintiff's 12-volume biography of George Washington in order to produce a separate two-volume work of his own. The court rejected the defendant's fair use defense with the following explanation:
[A] reviewer may fairly cite largely from the original work, if his design be really and truly to use the passages for the purposes of fair and reasonable criticism. On the other hand, it is as clear, that if he thus cites the most important parts of the work, with a view, not to criticize, but to supersede the use of the original work, and substitute the review for it, such a use will be deemed in law a piracy…
In short, we must often… look to the nature and objects of the selections made, the quantity and value of the materials used, and the degree in which the use may prejudice the sale, or diminish the profits, or supersede the objects, of the original work.
-- Qazmlpok 03:23, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Boosting Sales?

If anything, we are increasing the sales of the creator's stuff since the people know what they are buying since we have the translations. How do we supersede the original work if we put original intent on the way it's been said? We increase the value and the creator gets a bigger chunk of the cash flow. So we still got 1 out of 7 here and STILL legit. Btw, our translation are free, so obviously I still stick to the original 7... But if you say 1 out of 7, I'll take that and say "well, we are still legit since we cause no harm translating stuff!" ♥★♦ 03:28, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

So? You even said above that ZUN doesn't really care about money. It doesn't matter if you think something benefits the creator. It's a violation of copyright law to translate a work without the permission of the creator. Permission was not obtained. Therefore this site does not have the legal right to create or publish translations.
And for the last time, fair use does NOT work that way.
Someone else explain it to him. -- Qazmlpok 03:36, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

The Big Four

And you fail to realize that in Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Moral Majority, Inc. , we still abide by the same principles and still make this fair game since we do NOT damage the creator's pocketbook, making us legal!

Look, we have broken NOTHING in these four guidelines...

The four factors judges consider are:

  1. the purpose and character of your use
  2. the nature of the copyrighted work
  3. the amount and substantiality of the portion taken, and
  4. the effect of the use upon the potential market. 

1. Would fall into the 7

2. This is Touhou, which isn't under any copyright to begin with, but I'll humor you, so the "nature" is Fans give their interpretation of Touhou and we translate it and put it in our wiki.

3. Gives the gist and upholds everything (we are a very reliable source unlike other wikis...)

4.Which is ummm... lemme see... NOTHING. As I said before we are helping, not hurting these guys (FOR FREE!!!!!)

Also these principles are also in line.

  1. Has the material you have taken from the original work been transformed by adding new expression or meaning?
  2. Was value added to the original by creating new information, new aesthetics, new insights and understandings?

1. Yeah! We don't copy word from unless...

2. Which falls into 2, Touhou is a living breathing thing, we always change things!

5. The "Fifth" Fair Use Factor: Are You Good or Bad?

Last I checked, we are the good guys!

We here to inform, not to mislead!

Besides, ZUN holds these rights, not the creator's so again, your illegal case does not stand...

As long as we please ZUN, we are fine.

Tell me, what do you have to tear these down?

♥★♦ 03:54, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

First thing first, read Touhou Wiki:Copyrights as you can first, then try to debate later - KyoriAsh 04:19, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Doujin circles have no power!

Hmmm... that throws out the twitter then since

If there is trouble regarding the derivatives of my work, I cannot take responsibility.

As far as copyright goes, ZUN has given them no power to determine what goes on our wiki!

If at all, we also fall under his "Fair use" and we still are ok!

And so far, we have upheld his wishes! ♥★♦ 04:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

There seems to be a few misconceptions going on.
1) So long as at least one Fair Use criterion is fulfilled, it is Fair Use. Most of this Wiki falls under Commentary.
2) Regardless, translations, and possibly uploading the entirety of Japanese text too, fails "3. the amount and substantiality of the portion taken"
3) I believe the "If there is trouble..." refers explicitly to whether the derivative, which isn't his, causes some other problem beyond the scope of his copyright.
4) Qazmlpok only argued that there were in fact copyright violations going on, and has not commented on policy (to take down TLs or not).
We do have one clause in ZUN's terms of use that is possibly permitting our activities. "For the usual activities in doujin (uploading material on a homepage...), you do not need to notify me or request my permission." How much does 'material' cover? 'Material' is definitely not going to cover the entire game, but may extend to text and translations. Kiefmaster99 05:07, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

So... does that mean we are in the clear (as far as in the wiki gets to stay the way it is?

♥★♦ 05:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Convenient section break

As for now, we have one for (Lepetit89), three against (Kiefmaster99, Keiji, Nazeo), one fencesitter (Tsukihime(?)). Issues discussed include Copyright (respect for creators of media, applicability), Quality (impact, purpose of Touhou Wiki), Feasibility. There is a lack of consensus to take down translations. There are some other potential issues I could raise, but since it is unlikely that translations would be taken down, I won't raise them. Kiefmaster99 05:52, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Alright, then, let's see. What I could derive from your discussion is that, while ZUN is fairly easy-going, creators of works like Doujinshi still have their own copyright on whatever they published and are not forced to allow as much as ZUN in regards to distribution of their works.
Assuming I understood this correctly, let me make one thing perfectly clear - I do not doubt your good intentions, but more than legal matters (I still think we should dispose of the RAWs, regardless of the intentions the poster had), I am concerned with, as Kiefmaster99 has pointed out, actually respecting the creators of the various media. I'm sure that posting translations actually benefits them in one way or another - spreading the word, encouraging collectors or fans to import their works etc.. Nonetheless, I don't think that we should force them to accept this help.
Also, it is true that, as Keiji pointed out earlier, large parts of this Wiki depend on translations of works and other things that might not be in accordance with the wishes of some creators.
Regardless, tossing the matter of legal issues aside, if what you claim to be following here is, among other things, the wish to help the creators, then it should be safe to assume that you do have decency in you. Under that assumption, let me ask you - do you have the decency to follow the actual wishes of the creators?
This is, as said earlier, more a question of ethics and decency. And while it's true that translations can help, I do not think that we have the right to forcefully help a creator, even though he doesn't want us to do so, or rather, does not want us to employ the means we have access to.
Thus, considering the value of translations of both official and derivate works for this Wiki on one hand and the ethic obligations towards creators of derivate works on the other hand, I suggest that we leave the works currently uploaded on this Wiki for the time being, at least under the aspect of ethics.
However, this does not mean that we should not include the creators whom we claim to wish to help in this train of thought. While I think that we should leave the downloads (at least the ones of non-RAWs, I really think we should take the RAWs down as well as any pictures of non-translated pages) as they are for now, I think we should still make efforts to contact the creators and actually see what they think. If you claim that you wish to help them, then you have to consider their actual wishes. We need to point out why we think that it's a good idea to post translations of their works here and get them to understand our side of the story. If they understand our point, excellent. If they don't, and explicitly say that they want us to take down the translations, then I think that we should abide their wishes. We cannot force people to accept our help, and quite honestly, if you cannot understand that and would not want to abide their actual wishes, despite your claimed intentions to help them, then you certainly are not being decent or helpful. Nazeo (since you're the one that raised this point), that would merely make you hypocrite who wants access to certain media without giving a single thought to what the creators actually want, and I'm trying to put this in as friendly a way as I possibly can. If you want to be of help to the creators, then please prove to me and to them that your intentions are as decent as you claim them to be and that you're not just someone who cannot be bothered to give a thought to the creators because he thinks he's entitled to anything he wants as long as he does it under the guise of wanting to help the creators.--Lepetit89 13:33, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Couple points from Keiji

I'm going to throw a couple points out here:

  1. Very little of what this discussion is about is covered by fair use. The situations where we can quote fair use are limited to where we practically cannot write up our articles without using something copyrighted, in which case we're allowed to use a version which is redacted or reduced in resolution, just so people know what we are talking about. In our case this essentially is limited to things like box art, characters' profile pictures, album cover art and so on.
  2. Technically speaking, there is no way we can legally host any translations here, unless we get specific permission from the authors. So Nazeo, your attempts to get it covered by fair use are not going to work. Neither is trying to say "oh, it's okay, it's encouraging people to buy the original content" because not everyone who has access to this website will bother to do that. As an example, I frequently refer to the translated PMiSS articles here, but I don't own a copy of PMiSS - sure I'd like to buy them but if I bought everything that was translated here I'd be homeless.

Even considering #2 above, there isn't really much of a problem anyway. There are THOUSANDS of sites out there hosting translations without any kind of permission from the author, and nobody gets in a hissy fit about them. My stance is the same: while we are technically in the wrong, we are not actually harming anyone when it comes down to it, so unless we get a C&D or likewise then the translations should stay. Keiji 14:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that thousands of sites doing something that is wrong is an applicable justification of what we are doing. Internet users and creators tend to have very different perceptions of what is right and what is wrong which is why I made the suggestion of trying to reach out to them instead of waiting for a C&D that we know will never come because there are, as you said, thousands of other sites out there. This is a tough conflict, and I highly doubt that we'll ever achieve some sort of agreement both sides can be happy with if we just stick with the usual procedure. Granted, I cannot force anyone to see it the way I do and I certainly will not force anyone - it would just be very nice if you could find it in yourselves to at least attempt to change some of the injustices of the internet, even if it's only here. Oh, and, please don't call this a hissy fit! Lepetit89 17:15, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

So Nazeo, your attempts to get it covered by fair use are not going to work. Neither is trying to say "oh, it's okay, it's encouraging people to buy the original content" because not everyone who has access to this website will bother to do that. As an example, I frequently refer to the translated PMiSS articles here, but I don't own a copy of PMiSS - sure I'd like to buy them but if I bought everything that was translated here I'd be homeless.

Tell me, when did we tell those users to download bootlegged versions?
The wiki has no responsibility over the users of it's wiki, so we can't be held accountable for their actions!
As for the creator's being homeless, your are exaggerating and you know it.
If that is true, why do they keep updating their games instead of cutting their losses?
So we do influence the creator's positively by providing them to a widestream audience.
As for attempting to denounce my fair use, I find your claims at best weak arguments and at worst contradictory as you never keep to what you said originally about them...
Besides, isn't this a derivative of Touhou anyway?
So we are covered under ZUN, end of story!
If he doesn't want us here, he would have told us a LONG time ago.
♥★♦ 17:57, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Are you kidding? By providing download links to 'bootlegged' versions you are directly encouraging users to download these 'bootlegged' versions.
He didn't say creator would be homeless. If he bought everything touhou-related that was translated on this wiki HE would be homeless.
You seem to enjoy going back and forth between "Creators do it for the money" and "Creators do it because they enjoy it".
You influence the creator's work by providing them with a widestream audience that has no need to buy their works. Maybe they want lots of people to enjoy their work. Maybe they just want to make some pocket change from the sales. Maybe they want both. It is not for you to decide what the creator of a work wants.
Of course you find his claims to be weak arguments. They aren't what you want to hear.
No, it's not actually.
You do realize that this is about the wiki hosting translations and full download links to copyrighted materials, correct? Not about the legality of the wiki in general?
-- Qazmlpok 18:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
To Nazeo:
1) As much as I hate to break it to you, translations of whole text is not going to fly under fair use. You are going to need a different line of reasoning.
2) If we're linking translations, we do have some responsibility over that.
3) Two categories exist. Official works, and Fan works. The latter is not covered under ZUN's ToU.
To Lepetit89: So then, are you fine with the hosting of translations, game patches, text, from an Official source? Any reservations? I will post decisions we have made agreement on at the top of the page.
I would argue that Touhou Wiki is major enough of a website that authors sufficiently know about. Whether the Comics subsection is well known? Maybe. But, as I realize now, even if this was true, it is difficult for authors to get in contact anyways due to 1) language barrier and 2) nature of a wiki.
I raise feasibility as an issue because it turns out that Touhou Wiki is an active scanlation hub (Comics). RAWs do get passed around, and scanlations do get posted. The copyright rule in particular was abandoned Sept 2006, though instances of such violations did occur before then. The Touhou Wiki does operate in a somewhat segmented manner. Given that this activity has been occurring for at least 4 years, and to a considerable degree, I consider this to be a major policy change. The editors of that section must be consulted before action is taken (and I am not one of them). Kiefmaster99 18:23, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Also to Nazeo:
  • We can't be held accountable for people downloading things hosted here? Okay, what if I uploaded a pirated copy of Windows, are you saying that's fine with the law because it'd be the people downloading it at fault, not me? No, that's bollocks. I would be breaking the law if I uploaded a pirated copy of Windows onto my webserver, and it's just the same with Touhou Wiki and its translations. The only difference is the scale of things, and the difference in scale is what's responsible for why nobody complains about translations. But it's the same law that would be broken.
  • What I said about fair use is fact. If you don't believe me, go ask any experienced Wikipedia editor. My suggestion is unrelated to how fair use works and doesn't make use of it at all.
  • When ZUN said it is fine to make derivative works that is relating to the Touhou universe. That being Gensokyo, the characters, the storyline, etc. It doesn't mean we can make derivative works (translations, in this case) of the actual games, printed material or whatever else. And it certainly doesn't mean we can make derivative works of someone else's derivative work, because then you have an extra copyright belonging to that someone else.
You clearly don't have a real grasp on how copyright law works, so give it up. I already said the best option is just to acknowledge that hosting translations is technically wrong but isn't harming anyone. You don't need to try and come up with elaborate excuses to make it "right". Keiji 18:27, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
   Are you kidding? By providing download links to 'bootlegged' versions you are directly encouraging users to download these 'bootlegged' versions. 
   He didn't say creator would be homeless. If he bought everything touhou-related that was translated on this wiki HE would be homeless. 
   You seem to enjoy going back and forth between "Creators do it for the money" and "Creators do it because they enjoy it". 
   You influence the creator's work by providing them with a widestream audience that has no need to buy their works. Maybe they want lots of people to enjoy their work. Maybe they just want to make some pocket change from the sales. Maybe they want both. It is not for you to decide what the creator of a work wants. 
   Of course you find his claims to be weak arguments. They aren't what you want to hear. 
   No, it's not actually. 
   You do realize that this is about the wiki hosting translations and full download links to copyrighted materials, correct? Not about the legality of the wiki in general? 
You guys misunderstood me...
We do not have anything hosted on the wiki that isn't our own.
In fact, we give the creator's site and that's about it besides the English patch...
However after that, our responsibility ends there...
That's what it means...
Likewise that you don't like what I'm saying that's why you want to denounce me so fast while dodging my evidence!
Also, putting words in my text makes you bad, they update their stuff because they are doing well AND making more money, that's how I said it, not "They do it b/c they like it".
They may do, but they aren't gonna do it for free!

Logics from Nazeo

Also little geometry problem for you;
ZUN allows Derivative works
A Derivative work is produced
We translate it (a Derivative of a Derivative)
If we read this correctly, ZUN allows derivatives, so we are legit too!


           1) As much as I hate to break it to you, translations of whole text is not going to fly under fair use. You are going to need a different line of reasoning. 
           2) If we're linking translations, we do have some responsibility over that. 
           3) Two categories exist. Official works, and Fan works. The latter is not covered under ZUN's ToU. 
           To Lepetit89: So then, are you fine with the hosting of translations, game patches, text, from an Official source? Any reservations? I will post decisions we have made agreement on at the top of the page. 
           I would argue that Touhou Wiki is major enough of a website that authors sufficiently know about. Whether the Comics subsection is well known? Maybe. But, as I realize now, even if this was true, it is difficult for authors to get in contact anyways due to 1) language barrier and 2) nature of a wiki. 
           I raise feasibility as an issue because it turns out that Touhou Wiki is an active scanlation hub (Comics). RAWs do get passed around, and scanlations do get posted. The copyright rule in particular was abandoned Sept 2006, though instances of such violations did occur before then. The Touhou Wiki does operate in a somewhat segmented manner. Given that this activity has been occurring for at least 4 years, and to a considerable degree, I consider this to be a major policy change. The editors of that section must be consulted before action is taken (and I am not one of them). Kiefmaster99 18:23, 15 January 2011 (UTC) 
       Also to Nazeo:
           * We can't be held accountable for people downloading things hosted here? Okay, what if I uploaded a pirated copy of Windows, are you saying that's fine with the law because it'd be the people downloading it at fault, not me? No, that's bollocks. I would be breaking the law if I uploaded a pirated copy of Windows onto my webserver, and it's just the same with Touhou Wiki and its translations. The only difference is the scale of things, and the difference in scale is what's responsible for why nobody complains about translations. But it's the same law that would be broken.
           * What I said about fair use is fact. If you don't believe me, go ask any experienced Wikipedia editor. My suggestion is unrelated to how fair use works and doesn't make use of it at all.
           * When ZUN said it is fine to make derivative works that is relating to the Touhou universe. That being Gensokyo, the characters, the storyline, etc. It doesn't mean we can make derivative works (translations, in this case) of the actual games, printed material or whatever else. And it certainly doesn't mean we can make derivative works of someone else's derivative work, because then you have an extra copyright belonging to that someone else. 
       You clearly don't have a real grasp on how copyright law works, so give it up. I already said the best option is just to acknowledge that hosting translations is technically wrong but isn't harming anyone. You don't need to try and come up with elaborate excuses to make it "right". Keiji 18:27, 15 January 2011 (UTC) 


I DO indeed have a grasp of copyright laws!
Condescending to me is a bad idea; so let me educate you on "COPYRIGHT"

Q. I want to use snapshots on my webpage (for a walkthrough, etc.)

Of course I don't mind.  You don't even have to notify me beforehand.
As long as you follow the rules below, I won't mind.
1. Don't post endings.
2. Rescaling is okay, but please preserve the images' aspect ratio.
3. Don't make image content edits that are indistinguishable from the
   original images.
   This includes things like changing the spell card names, recoloring the
   images, or add extra bullets that weren't originally there.
    * However, this is okay if it's done as a joke and it's clearly stated
      that it's a joke.
4. Things like cropping the images or overlaying them with text are no problem.
If you have any doubts, just ask me and I'll respond.

ZUN indirectly here says that he's ok with a walkthrough,etc also meaning wiki, which we provide with an English translation, but here he's more concerned with the snapshots...

As for the creator's of the other Fanworks, ZUN grants them no "Hands Off" policy which would invalidate us from merely translating...

I'm just telling you how it is, and we haven't violated anything except maybe my patience...
Oh, and the 7 still stand...

♥★♦ 18:39, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Okay, what

Nazeo: "We do not have anything hosted on the wiki that isn't our own."

Yes, yes we do. Here, have an example: Perfect Memento: Cirno

This along with all the other PMiSS pages contains the complete verbatim Japanese text of a copyrighted printed work. If that isn't copyright infringement I don't know what is. Keiji 19:01, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

See Also little geometry problem for you;

   ZUN allows Derivative works 
   A Derivative work is produced 
   We translate it (a Derivative of a Derivative) 
   If we read this correctly, ZUN allows derivatives, so we are legit too! 

NOT infringement!

♥★♦ 19:09, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

That argument doesn't hold. You're being stubborn so I'm not going to bother wasting any more of my time trying to explain why. Keiji 19:15, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
A derivative as in "a work that uses the characters" not a derivative as in "use the source material, copy different text on it and call it a day". We are NOT in the clear, so please. Besides, the example Keiji gave contains no text whatsoever, using translation as a reason for upload won't fly there, not like it ever does, legally. This is starting to get out of hand, would you please just try to understand what we are saying?Lepetit89 19:17, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
First, it's a logic problem, not a geometry problem lol.
Second, I have not read ZUN's policies on the touhou franchise, but I will assume the first statement is true seeing how there is just so much non-ZUN touhou stuff out there. Now, derivative works are allowed to be produced and sold. The people that produce them; should they be allowed to copyright their material and call it theirs? If so, then us translating THEIR copyright material and distributing it freely throughout the internet is the same as piracy. And piracy, as far as I can tell, is illegal. --Tsukihime 19:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Does this

Of course I don't mind.  You don't even have to notify me beforehand.
As long as you follow the rules below, I won't mind.

1. Don't post endings.
2. Rescaling is okay, but please preserve the images' aspect ratio.
3. Don't make image content edits that are indistinguishable from the
   original images.
   This includes things like changing the spell card names, recoloring the
   images, or add extra bullets that weren't originally there.
    * However, this is okay if it's done as a joke and it's clearly stated
      that it's a joke.
4. Things like cropping the images or overlaying them with text are no problem.

If you have any doubts, just ask me and I'll respond.

mean anything to you?

I just explained how that works...

Btw, your a field of daises yourself lol.

I'm not mad, I just feel we are justified and what we do now is ok.

Hey, wait a minute!

I had an epiphany!

Is is this so important to figure out now? Can this wait?

(To Lepetit89)

You are asking me to lay down and die...

Which I can't do...

But remember, Neither I or you have power what goes on.

It's the community's call.

Lol, I have no power over this!

Whatever the wind blows, I guess...

(To Tsukihime ) But that assumes they have rights other than what ZUN gave them

So if you can prove that ZUN does not wish for us to "derivative of a derivative" then your argument holds water ♥★♦ 19:20, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

They do have rights. They have their OWN rights as producers. They receive the rights to use ZUN's material and must follow his policy. That doesn't mean they have no OTHER rights. That doesn't mean we can freely steal their stuff and do whatever we want with it. There is no argument whether ZUN "does not wish for us to produce derivatives of a derivative", but the problem is that some of the derivatives WE produce are based on COPYRIGHTED derivatives. If not copyrighted, you're at least making it available for FREE which would most likely screw over the circles that produce them in the first place. A lot of circles and artists die out due to piracy. --Tsukihime 19:36, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

ZUN's Policy

And where does it say in ZUN's policy that people who create derivative works from his source material are forced to abide by this same policy? Please point that out to me because I'm not seeing it. -- Qazmlpok 19:25, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
And ZUN's copyright policy still does not apply to derivative works, and, just for your information, that policy does not even apply to printworks, everything written there is in reference to screenshots of games. Anyway, I'm tired of it, gonna post the rest elsewhere, to anyone who's not just going stick their fingers into their ears and play heroic/whatever floats your boat. Lepetit89 19:27, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Heres his doujin policy:

Q: I want to make derivative work based on the Touhou series's characters and settings.
The copyright of the Touhou series, including its characters, content, quotes, and music belong
to my circle. That said, this series is supported by many doujin creators. (Thank you)
For the usual activities in doujin (uploading material on a homepage, selling them in a convention
or in a shop at your own expense), or doujin material (derivative comics, stories,
games, CGs, goods, cosplay), you do not need to notify me or request my permission. The
copyright of derivative works belong to the creators of said derivatives. If there is trouble
regarding the derivatives of my work, I cannot take responsibility. 
To avoid trouble, please satisfy the following conditions.
1. Using game data other than screenshots is forbidden.
2. If you need data other than screenshots, please make them yourself.
3. Content that includes inflammatory material towards us or other copyright owners is forbidden.
4. If possible, please attribute us. (recommended)
5. If possible, please include our contact information in the colophon. (recommended)
6. Please do not mistake the names of the games or the characters.
7. Do not reproduce or reprint ending material, including the text.
8. For the commercial production of derivative material, or the mass circulation of derivative
  material outside of doujin shops, you must seek my permission. 
  To publish on commercial magazines and books, you must notify me.
  (You do not need to do so for magazines that describe doujin and derivatives.)
9. If you did not satisfy the above conditions but received my permission, please make clear that

you have received my permission.

Otherwise, decisions like for sale or for free, how many to print, the price to sell them at, adult
only or not, original settings or not, is entirely free for you to choose. 
However, if I see material that I decide to not fulfil the above conditions, I have the right to
stop its distribution.

Applies to both...

(To Lepetit89)

Anyway, I'm tired of it, gonna post the rest elsewhere, to anyone who's not just going stick their fingers into their ears and play heroic/whatever floats your boat.

Now that's not fair!

If you don't like my say, that's fine, but this is public access!

I have a right to free speech!

You can't just hide this topic because you don't like what I'm saying!

This involves all of us!

If you do, then it's not representative of the majority and you have manipulated the polls!

Besides, I have listened and responded to all your concerns, unlike you have...

I'm trying really hard to play nice, but you aren't making it easy...

♥★♦ 19:31, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not going to bother arguing anymore; just to make something clear: When I said that the policy does not apply to printworks, I meant the official ones. And the policy about recropping images and what not does not include them, nor does it include doujinshi, and it could not even include doujinshi because the creators of Doujinshi and other derivative works do not have to treat copyright in the same way ZUN does.
Anyway, different from what you claim to be doing, you're not listening to anyone. You keep repeating arguments that have been reputed (thus, we have listened to you) time and time again. You can go on arguing, but if you go on like this, you'll have no one but yourself left to argue with very soon. Lepetit89

So what your saying is that we can't make our own fan-made character here but we have to have your permission so we can? —Preceding unsigned comment added by The veronicas2 (talkcontribs) 22:01, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm assuming you're talking about adding information about your own characters here, I don't generally crack down on people doing so but it's generally those that are editing the rest of the wiki anyway. On top of that, any user-sourced information like that has to stay within their userspace, not in the wiki's mainspace. Momiji 09:34, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Compromise?

Fine.
Tell me what what you want.
Your call
Let's compromise...
Any ideas to get around this?
It's better if we work together...

♥★♦ 19:44, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

You know, compromise usually occurs before one party get pissed off and leaves --Tsukihime 19:53, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

(Hopefully) final statement by the guy who got this rolling

Okay, now that we're all heated up, let's try to bring this to a conclusion. Sometime ago, before we started getting off track, Kiefmaster99 asked me a question somewhere in between this huge amount of text, sometimething regarding the hosting of translations, game patches and text from an official source. I don't know how to quote, sorry!

Regarding that question: I have come to realize that, as a "translation hub", this Wiki plays a fairly huge roll. Nonetheless, I still think that we should include the artists more. As Kiefmaster99 said, Touhou Wiki IS a huge site and it is very likely that artists and other creators are aware of it. To answer the question: I am fine with the hosting of the said material ("translations, game patches, text, from an Official source?")

I would, however, like to include three conditions (before I finally shut up):

1.) RAWs (regardless of whether they are text or images) are to be taken down within a week after the upload of a translation (the week set as a limit so other translators can maybe check them, I'm honestly not aware of how many translation groups are involved in all of this).
2.) All images that do not contain any text should be taken down since they cannot be translated and thus, are exempt from the reasoning regarding translations.
3) Even though many creators are aware of this site, we should still make efforts to ask them about their opinion. If no one is willing to do so, I'd like to do it myself, either in the future once my knowledge of the Japanese language has increased to a sufficient amount or with the help of a Japanese friend of mine.

Do you think you could agree with this? If the creators are aware of the site and tolerate the hosting of translations of their works, then we have nothing to fear anyway. Lepetit89 20:00, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

The English transcript of <whatever> for your reading pleasure.
The Japanese transcript has also been included in order to encourage fellow translators to chip in and make our translations more accurate/helpful.
Found at the top of pretty much every translation page, at least the game ones. As the translations on the wiki are a collaborative effort, I think it's important to keep the original text present for anyone who wishes to verify, reword, etc any of the translations present. I think the RAWs should be kept for this reason. Additionally, it is very difficult to truly delete the text from the wiki anyways, as it requires an admin (or some level of higher access than a normal user) to remove the history of the page; otherwise it would be just a show of good faith and not an actual deterrent against anything (e.g. enough to discourage people from using it, but still a copyright issue). -- Qazmlpok 20:09, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
I see, good point. I suppose it wouldn't matter too much with a translation right next to it anyway. Forget about point 1) then. In that case, is it safe to assume that you are fine with points 2) and 3)? Lepetit89 20:17, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
I don't object. For #3 I'd personally like to have no reply be considered tacit approval. -- Qazmlpok 20:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
1) Editors have their own policy of taking down RAW scans. This only applies to scanlations.
2) in this case can actually be justified under ZUN's terms of use (screenshots) and, (gasp) possibly Fair Use, in most instances. This would have to be decided on a case by case basis, but is something I'm more willing to work with. With regards to scanlations, this is somewhat impractical and potentially objectionable by scanlators.
3) I have no objections to. Kiefmaster99 20:42, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps we could place a disclaimer or some sort that goes "We are willing to take down if it goes against the creator's wishes" so that the creator's themselves can say if they want or not.
We also got Qazmlpok's idea, but that's seems like a big venture due the amount of groups, perhaps we can have a team that can help him out?
I could attempt to twitter ZUN, but hopefully it doesn't come out wrong...
I am willing help out whichever I can, but I need a direction...
See? Much more gets done if we work together...
Oh btw, nice try Tsukihime :3
♥★♦ 20:24, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Uh, what? What's my idea?
Also, I'd highly recommend requesting permission from the Japanese artists in Japanese, and privately in email. Randomly asking him on Twitter (in English) probably isn't the best choice. -- Qazmlpok 20:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I know, I'm planning to use a translator and I acknowledge your efforts to contact every single artist!

So anyone volunteering to help Qazmlpok?

Update:

Whoops, I meant Lepetit89

♥★♦ 20:30, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, no answer being approval was my idea as well, regarding your addition to 3), Qazmlpok.
Regarding e-mails to creators:
What kind of translator are you referring to, Nazeo? I appreciate your efforts, but actual translators are somewhat expensive and I don't think we should be using net-translators, that's why this task should be left to someone profiscient in Japanese. If there is no such person available, I'll see to it myself, either sometime in the future or with the help of a Japanese friend of mine. I've been asked about making a list of creators already, regarding that: Naturally, it should only include artists of whom we have works uploaded here already. No point in asking artists who are not even affected yet since there might be no translators actively working on them.
Before we make a final decision, however, we should probably wait for a little more feedback. I'm optimistic about everyone being able to agree with this compromise, though. Lepetit89

Leave it to me!

I'll figure it out, somehow, someway!

So far, I like the plan, and I'll wait for approval.

♥★♦ 20:45, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

So you like asking Author? Let's begin

Asking ZUN in Twitter - KyoriAsh 21:25, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Awesome, thank you for asking, I can't understand everything, but that probably only goes to show that you really did put effort into it! Let's see if he's going to answer. Lepetit89 21:46, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Hehe, way to go KyoriAsh!

Beat me to the punch there!

I'll be collecting names.... ♥★♦ 21:55, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

WTF

(TL;DR). Momiji 00:36, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Calm down man... I understand your feelings there: It was indeed unsettling to see people fight over this matter and lose their tempers over a matter like this, but we can't go on calling them names like that and worsen an already bad situation here. Anyways I see your point: If they cared in the first place then we would've been sued already for uploading all those episodes "Inaba of the Moon" comics. Deathsoul4 01:16, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
I seriously doubt we're going to get sued for anything by anyone, at least from Japan. Momiji 01:20, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Whether getting sued or anything isn't the issue, since, as you mentioned, that is very unlikely to begin with. That being said, your input several days earlier would've helped. We can choose to ignore whatever as you said. In that case though, the "Do not submit copyrighted work without permission!" clause may need to be modified. Your call. Kiefmaster99 01:39, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
I figured it'd get settled before someone started getting ready to email almost every Touhou doujinka in existence (and KyoriAsh twittering ZUN). And also, I've been sick most of the week.
The doujin situation is probably completely benign now, but if someone actually starts trying to get the attention of doujinka in Japan about stuff here you're just asking to make it a problem. And honestly, if that sort've thing starts up, I won't think twice about deleting any copyright-questionable file on the server. Momiji 02:00, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
I take it then you endorse two positions: a) Enforcement of copyright if asked, and b) To make no conscious effort to contact doujinka. Correct me if I'm wrong. At least, I can't help but think that your line of reasoning is somewhere along the lines of "We have little to gain but a lot to lose". Kiefmaster99 03:09, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, pretty much. The content was really... already in the wiki in the first place before we exported the data from Wikia. I guess a lack of real solid administration on the old wiki allowed the doujins to get uploaded without issue. I'd leave it there, until it actually becomes a problem, at which point I have no problem with removing it. But in the mean time, I don't think it's something to get worked up about.
Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not someone to encourage piracy. But I think getting worked up about this is like getting worked up over pirating PC98 games (good luck even finding original disks to buy, maybe someone'll part with them for a small fortune). Momiji 03:22, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. I do ask though that you tone down your first reply though. A considerable portion of the thread was spent explaining that where were technically copyright violations going on, but many of us were also reluctant (almost ridiculously so) to take down such material. There was less opposition to the suggestion to contact authors. Anyways, your input was appreciated. Kiefmaster99 03:53, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I'll just remove it and leave the rest of the thread. It was targeted more at Nazeo et.al. anyway. Momiji 04:09, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
If I'm understanding this correctly, Momiji, your stance on this is to leave things as they are, making the compromise we have arrived at null and void if we were to follow your suggestion?
Personally, I'm more than reluctant to go with that option, considering how much effort has been put into coming up with a solution that seems to be acceptable for everyone involved. If you say that the creators don't care about it, then what do we have to fear? If there is something we have to fear, then we're basically admitting to doing something we're not supposed to do, neither legally nor ethically. Showing a bit of due respect towards the creators is what I've been aiming for ever since I came to terms with the fact that all of us here do have very different perceptions of what is justified and what is not.
Regardless, just to make sure, are you only opposed to contacting the creators or do you also oppose the notion to take down copyrighted images that do not contain relevant text since they are exempt from the justification through means of translation for obvious reasons (though we'd probably have to discuss this again, missed an answer by Kiefmaster99)?
I'd really like to hear your opinion on this and I hope that your sickness has gotten better since you're back in action. Lepetit89 09:34, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Basically, as the site stands now there's nothing to be worried about. On the other hand, if you DO go out and contact a bunch of people, if they don't just completely ignore your message altogether, they might actually have an issue. Really, it's more about contacting them causing more problems than good. If you're worried about not contributing to doujinkas in return, we can set up links on each doujin page point people where to buy them. I think that'd be a lot more helpful than anything else. Although the whole thing is technically illegal anyway, I think it'll probably be tolerated as long as we can encourage more people to buy the works. Momiji 17:32, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Just an example, I'm part of a doujinka mainly based out of Malaysia, and we did a Touhou doujin a year ago. Not long after it was released at the local convention, it was scanned and uploaded to a doujin site. Did we care? Not at all, especially since doujins are limited-run, more people can see the works (and maybe buy the newer ones when they're released). Momiji 17:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to assume that all circles will share your attitude towards uploads of their works (even though I, also being a collector, am very, very well aware of the problems related to limited prints), BUT, you know what? That's a good idea and also one I can agree with. Assuming I'm one of the guys your little outburst was directed at, I think I can get along with you quite well as long as I'm not the target of insults (no hard feelings, by the way, bad day after sickness, whatever it was, I don't care, things happen). Anyway, we add links to places where both old and new works by the respective creators can be bought and I'll shut up under the condition that we also add some sort of disclaimer that clearly states that we'll take down any copyrighted works when prompted to do so (as Nazeo suggested earlier I think). And I want some chicken wings to go with that. Deal? Lepetit89 18:50, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
There is a buying stuff section on the Touhou Wiki dedicated for this that could be be integrated into all of this.
I'd also like to throw out that for the unacquainted, obtaining some doujin products can be tough, even if sold. Kiefmaster99 19:31, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
I wonder which would be better, integrating it into that section or posting the respective links along with each individual item. I'm actually more inclined towards posting the links along with the respective uploads and circles, depending on how we extend that section.
Also, regarding the difficulties of imports etc., how about a guide of sorts? I'm not familiar with the import laws of countries other than Germany, but I'm well acquainted with the general procedures and more than willing to maybe write a guide regarding options of purchase, payment methods, customs and other relevant things. Lepetit89 20:40, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Some of both might be just fine. Some circles (especially music circles) have their own online stores on their site ('though they may only cater to domestic customers). That sort of circle-specific info might be better for circle articles, or direct album links on album pages. More general and per-country information would be better for the "Buying Stuff" page. As for chicken wings... hmmm... I don't think Mystia would like me talking about that~~ Momiji 21:48, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Points to consider

1.In light of currant events, is it safe to say that if you attempt to use a commercial outlet (like X-box) to sell something Touhou related w/o asking permission, then ZUN will swat it down, just as the I-phone incident? So far, it is to my understanding that if it is you taking a risk such as a shop that you own and manage means that you do not need to ask ZUN. Also, the material must be 100% yours (meaning keeping your derivatives, derivatives)

2.What do we stand for? Are we a public organization? What's our legal status? Before we inquire about the law, we gotta know where we stand in the law in the first place.

3.It is true that translations are not covered in ZUN's policy. We exist in some sort of Limbo. But it is my belief that ZUN knows we exist and so far no red flags have been raised as of yet...

4.RAWS text and scans also do not align with the copyright policy. Therefore, we need to figure out how to make it so or ask ZUN if he can make a exception in our case.

5.The section about efforts concerning copyright violations makes sense, because if it is really bothering said person, they can go ahead and delete it instead of the other way around and having us ask ppl... We could also put up a list of names of what NOT to post so to avoid further violations

So did this inquiry cover all the bases?

If not, then just ask. ♥★♦ 05:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

♥★♦ 05:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

There were many problems with that app. Also combine that with the number of people Twittering ZUN about it.
With regards to this wiki, whether we like it or not, technical copyright violations will exist - that is the nature of translations. What this wiki tries to do, and most other fan translators, subbers, etc, is to minimize the amount of harm done. Most people will remain indifferent.
This wiki also acts as a translation/scanlation hub, both in the past and still now. This is why I had to put 'lack of consensus'. So yes, RAWs are going to be passed around. Unless this becomes a problem, we shouldn't bother with it. - Kiefmaster99 18:24, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification, Kiefmaster99.

♥★♦ 19:10, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

To expand a bit further just for sake of completeness:
This wiki's copyright policy is very 'grey'. Wikipedia has the strictest copyright policy since it's very well known and public, and has a bunch of policies and methods to prevent copyvio. Material suspected of violating copyright is routinely pruned, and much effort is made to obtain either 'free' equivalents (make your own) or fair use (including downsizing images). Other wikis similar to this one (in terms of topic) have moderately strict policies too. It's not uncommon to encounter policies that forbid links to subs or scanlations, which is in the same league as linking to game patches.
Then there's Touhou. Touhou is very unique in that it is heavily doujin-based and fanbase-driven. In that sense, the fanbase attitude towards copyright is laxer. As well, this site translates stuff. For this reason, this wiki actually has more of what I would call "translator's ethics". So long as the material isn't provided in English, translations are distributed, which is a technical copyvio, but tolerated, while most other aspects of copyright are respected. For this reason, translations and scanlations are distributed freely, while you won't see stuff like links to (non-free) music or original games.
I'd be lying if I said that this wiki obeys all copyrights. - Kiefmaster99 04:53, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

So what's our plan? Is there any practical way to keep us in accordance to these copyrights? Should we be very worried about breaking these?

You know, now that I think about, could you provide a list of what consider major violations of the law, the ones considered "tolerated", and the ones that so far we have kept within the law.

I can't do it because something like what happen earlier may occur and we certainly don't need another one of those...

So thank you so much, Kiefmaster99!

(btw, I see you are taking this very seriously. I do in fact want to keep in within the laws as well, but I'm also having a very difficult time to find a way to satisfy these laws and keeping the wiki afloat.) ♥★♦ 15:59, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Let it be known, this horse is completely, absolutely dead. Momiji 07:15, 15 May 2011 (UTC)