User:Kiefmaster99/Touhou Epic

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Blog-ish page for things related to Touhou Epic, the Civ IV Touhou mod, and any of it's (potential) successors.


Unfortunately, Touhou Epic is no longer under development, at least from the Japanese side of things.

A possible Civ V mod?[edit]

Several ideas have been thrown around regarding a possible mod for Civ 5. Actually, several Touhou mods have already been made for Civ V, quite a head start! They're not that bad, and are all designed to be played alongside the existing civilizations. Of course, this means they have to be balanced against them. Want to lead the Scarlet Estate against the Aztecs? The Great Fairy Alliance against Japan? Those mods allow you to do just that without breaking the game balance too much.

And this time around, I haven't seen much from the Japanese. Well, at least not on Nico anyways (which was how I originally discovered the first Touhou Epic).

But compared to the original Touhou Epic, they are minor in scope. Touhou Epic more-or-less overhauled the core balance of the game though additional techs, special units and buildings, civics, and so on forth. The civs were overhauled to only represent Touhou factions within Gensoukyou giving it a very "Touhou" feel to it. It kind of still kept the core of the tech tree though. But in any case, each civilization developed a very unique way of playing. This makes me wonder then, if one could reintroduce Touhou Epic-esque features into some sort of more unified Civ V mod.

Some mechanics of Civ V are fundamentally different from those of Civ IV. Well, many actually. Some elements of the previous Touhou Epic could be transferred over, others not, but in either case, there's an opportunity to reinvent each Civ anyhow.

Core Structure[edit]

I'm also thinking of restricting the number of Hero units to four per civ for the sake of simplicity. This means that each civ requires four combat-able characters. There are some major civs out there with rather few characters, which may have to absorb a more minor civ.

Perhaps some sort of spell card system can be set up. Maybe something slightly different than how it worked last game.

Global flavour changes:

- Fairy units obviously. Perhaps stylistic changes depending on civ (rabbits, etc)
- Perhaps replace the Giant Death Robot with Hisoutensoku lol
- Great Works can be replaced with some more Touhou-specific works, canon or fanon

The following is an organization of 'groups' within the universe, as well as some flavour guesses. As civs can only have one leader, each leader will be bolded. Flavours generally reflect that civ's tendencies, such as abilities and incidents if any.

Group Characters Flavour
Hakurei Shrine Reimu, Suika, (Mima) Faith, Gold
Scarlet Devil Mansion Meiling, Patchouli, Sakuya, Remilia, Flandre Military, Science, Expansive
Hakugyokurou Youmu, Yuyuko Culture, Defensive
Eientei Tewi, Reisen, Eirin, Kaguya Science, Defensive
Human Village Keine, Mokou Balanced
Moriya Shrine Sanae, Kanako, Suwako Faith, Culture
Palace of the Earth Spirits Satori, Rin, Utsuho, Koishi Espionage, Aggression
Myouren Temple Nazrin, Ichirin, Murasa, Shou, Byakuren, Kyouko Faith, ??
Hall of Dream's Great Mausoleum (or Senkai) Yoshika, Seiga, Tojiko, Futo, Miko Faith, Organization
Shining Needle Castle Seija, Shinmyoumaru ??
Forest of Magic Marisa, Alice Science?, Production?
Baka Quartet Rumia, Daiyousei, Cirno, Wriggle, Mystia Culture, Aggression
Prismrivers Prismriver Sisters Culture
Yakumo Household Yukari, Ran, Chen
Higan Eiki, Komachi ?
Tengu Aya, Hatate, Momiji
Bhavaagra Tenshi, Iku
Youkai Duo Nue, Mamizou
Tsukumogami (DDC) Raiko, Benben, Yatsuhashi Culture, Aggressive
Independent/Unaccounted Combat: Medicine, Aki sisters, Hina, Nitori, Yamame, Parsee, Yuugi, Kogasa, Wakasagihime, Sekibanki, Kagerou, Watatsuki sisters, Three Fairies of Light, Kasen
Non-combat: Rinnosuke, Tojiko, Akyuu, Kosuzu, Renko, Maribel
Probability Space Hypervessel Chiyuri, Yumemi Science
Mugenkan (or Garden of the Sun) Kurumi, Elly, Yuuka ??
Makai Shinki, etc Tourism?


I supposed some of these groups can be merged as per the following:

  • It is important to keep in mind these are only ideas. Some info from existing mods will also be placed here for sake of idea collection. Also, if any modder wants to borrow these ideas, knock yourself out.
Civilization Characters Flavour UA UU UB UI
Hakurei Shrine Reimu, Marisa, Alice Faith, Diplomatic, Gold Hakurei Guardian
Bonus faith and gold from friendly city states.
Goliath Doll
Gunpowder: 40, Meelee, 1 Movement
Sumiyoshi Project
Spaceship Factory, Flight: +1 Faith per 2 citizens in city
Mushroom Camp
Lumbermill: +1G with Economics, +15% friendly attack bonus
Scarlet Devil Mansion Remilia, Sakuya, Flandre; Patchouli, Meiling Military, Expansive Scarlet Mist
-25% Culture Cost for Border Expansion, +20% Attack in Friendly, +1XP/Turn in Friendly (Would have to scale with game speed though)
Fairy Maid
Worker: No terrain penalty
Magic Library
Library: Slot for Great Written Work, +2 Science +1 Happiness if occupied
Gatekeeper's Outpost
Fort: Connects resource, additional +20% defense
Hakugyokurou Yuyuko, Youmu, Prismriver sisters Culture, Defensive Perfect Blossom
Luxury Resources provide +1F, +1C, +1G in Capital
Cherry Garden
Drama and Phil; Forest: +1C, +1C +1G with Acoustics
Eientei Kaguya, Eirin, Reisen; Tewi Science, Defensive Lunar Corps
Infantry: +20% Friendly Combat
Mochi Works
Plantation: +1G, +1F with Fertilizer (on top of existing)
Human Village Keine, Mokou, Komachi; Eiki, Akyuu Diplomatic, Golden Ages Human Union
Golden Ages stop degradation of influence and increase trade route income of City-states by 50%.
Child of Miare
Great Writer: Grants 2-turn Golden Age upon expenditure
Public School:
Rice Paddy
Farm: +1G with Industrialization
Moriya Shrine Kanako, Sanae, Suwako Faith, Culture Mountain of Faith
+3Fth, +3C from Mountain tiles; +10% Combat Bonus on Hill
Palace of the Earth Spirits Satori, Rin, Koishi; Utsuho Espionage, Aggression Third Eye
Spires are 25% more effective, have +1 LoS, and a 50% chance of escaping if caught.
Wheelbarrow Caravan
Caravan: Same yield as Cargo Ship, but 25% more expensive.
Hellfire Furnace
Factory: +20% Production when constructing Land Units, +1 Uranium.
Subterranean Geyser
Engineering, Hill: +1F, +1S; +1G, +1S with Combustion
Myouren Temple Byakuren, Ichirin, Shou; Murasa, Nazrin, Kyouko Faith, ?? Myouren ? Little Dowser General
Archaeologist: Doubled excavation speed; Can Dowse a non-resource tile for 10 turns to create 2x of a strategic resource (Undiscovered Resource will reveal instead), Action will consume the unit.
Phantom Ship's Harbour Yamabiko Gazebo
Theology: +2Fth, +2C with Acoustics; Can only be built next to Mountain Tiles.
Hall of Dream's Great Mausoleum (or Senkai) Miko, Seiga, Futo; Yoshika, Tojiko Faith, Organization True Administrator
15% of commerce earned from trade routes is added to faith. Can purchase buildings with faith.
Shining Needle Castle Shinmyoumaru, Seija, Raiko; {Benben, Yatsuhashi} Culture, Aggressive Reverse Ideology
Doubles Ideology influence against other civilizations from Tourism. Happiness from each civilization in civil resistance or worse.
Archaeology: 35, Can generate culture from combat
Wall of Issun
Wall: +1 City Population, +25% City Combat Strength
Tsukumogami Monument
Antiquity site: Always leaves monument (+1G); choice of receiving artifact or creating Tsukumogami unit
Fairy Alliance Cirno, Wriggle, Mystia, Rumia; Daiyousei Culture, Aggression Fairy Wars
Starts with Cirno instead of Warrior. Doubled land production speed and maintenance costs.
Firefly Swarm Decimal System
Mathematics: +10% Production, +10% Gold
Yakitori Stand
Youkai Mountain Aya, Hatate, Nitori; Momiji Culture, Science Newspaper Enterprise
+10% Culture, +10% Tourism with Printing Press, Mass Media
Tengu Scout
Scout: Warrior Strength, starts with Observation I, Survivalism I, can retreat, doesn't obsolete
Tengu Press
Printing Press: +1G, +1 Specialist slot for Writer
Kappa Mill
Machinery, River Tile: +1F, +1P; +1S, +1G with Electricity
Ancient City Suika, Yuugi, Parsee; Yamame Culture, Science Oni Party
Bhavaagra Tenshi, Iku, Giant Catfish Earthshaking
Yakumo Household Yukari, Ran, Chen Spiriting Away
Youkai? Mamizou, Nue, Kogasa Youkai Rebellion Tatara Furnace
Forge: +10% Production

City states: Kourindou, Suzunaan, Three Fairies' House, Muenzuka, Phantom Meadow, Lunar Capital, Nameless Hill, Road of Reconsideration, Muenzuka, Road of Liminality, Spring Path, Mysterious Cherry Blossom Path, Canal of Willows, Twilight Bar, Torifune, Kasen's Mansion Possible other location names from music: (Sky) Flower Capital, Sealed Cloud Route, Shanghai Teahouse, Sky Ruin, Modern Youkai Colony, Nemesis' Stronghold, Paradise, Evening Primrose, Demonic Place, Hatoyama Night, Greenwich,

Boss Units[edit]

Boss Units are essentially the "hero" units of the game. They are unique, powerful units that add their own spin on combat. With Civ V BNW being completely different from Civ IV, not just in economics but combat mechanics, the balance between Boss Units would also have to be readjusted. In my opinion, Boss Units should be strong enough to stand out, but not overpowered so as to overwhelm too many ordinary units. After all, 'stacks' don't exist in this game anymore; we have 'carpets' instead. And the unit count is also generally far less than in ordinary Civ IV.

So I propose the following base mechanics of Boss Units:

- Boss Units have similar strength as the melee/gunpowder unit of that era.
- 150HP instead of 100HP. This has the consequence of increasing survival of Boss Units without increasing their damage (melee combat in particular). This will be the main way Boss Units derive their increased power apart from unique promotions. Don't know if it's possible to do this though.
- The increased survival, combined with combat involving incremental damage, obsoletes the need of a "supernatural border".
- On a 1v1 against melee, Boss Units should win. At 1v2 perhaps, but 1v3 always, Boss Units should lose unless they have two promotions. At higher levels, this model does break down a bit and would have to be playtested instead.
-Boss Units do not benefit from Barracks or the Heroic Epic. Instead,
-When Boss units are destroyed, they restart in the capital with a severe cooldown penalty of 10 turns at Normal Speed. They keep existing XP and promotions though. (Well, provided there aren't any exploits anyways)

Spell Card system:

- Spell Cards are more powerful than standard melee or ranged attacks. Unlike the aforementioned though, they require recharging.
- Spell Cards deal "Spell Damage" using the unit's Combat Strength as a base value. This turns the spell card attack into what is essentially a ranged attack variant.
- A Spell Multiplier system should be used, replacing the CAL system.
- A Spell Multiplier, as its name implies, multiplies the spell's combat power. This mimics ordinary power-up promotions.
- Power will be revamped. Power regenerates 0.50 per turn, while Spell Cards cost Power (Most spell cards will cost 1.00 Power). This will not scale with game speed.
- Units start with a base Power of 1.00
- Unlike the previous game, Spell Cards are less powerful, but will be allowed to be cast more repeatedly. Also, all spell cards should be combat-usable in some way. Spells conferring some economic benefit is relegated to Ex and Ph instead. (Of course, under this new system, Suwako's old SC would be very OP).
- To protect against spell damage, a promotion similar to Cover (protects against ranged damage) should be offered to units whenever the cover promotion could be chosen.

The Spell Card promotion system will be as follows:

Easy (Enables Spell Cards, +15% SM) Normal (+15% SM) Hard (+20% SM) Lunatic (+25% SM)
I . . L -> Extra (Enables Extra; +10% SM) Phantasm (Enables Phantasm; +15%SM)
L -> Option I (+1.00 Power; three consec) Option II (+2.00 Power; seven consec)

In short, with Lunatic, the multiplier increases to 75%; will all, to 100%, or a 2.0 multiplier. Options enable spell cards to be cast more times before Power drains to 0.

Additionally, the Hard and Lunatic promotions (or Spell Multiplier thresholds of 1.50 and 1.75, whichever is easier to code) will grant a special attribute to the spell card.


Take for example, the drafted versions of the following three characters:


Name Attributes Damage Effect Notes
Fantasy Seal Range: 1 (H: +1)
Area: 1 Adjacent
Cost: 1.00
80% direct, 40% adjacent Sealed
100% direct, 50% adjacent (L: 150%; 75%)
-1 Movement
-15% Strength
Wears Off (100%)
In-game text: "Damages a unit with 80% strength and its vicinity with 40% strength. Also Seals the Unit (100%) and its vicinity (50%).
R:1 A:1 Adj C:1.00 H: Increases range by 1 L: Increases Sealed chance to 150%/75%
-1 Movement
-15% Strength
Wears Off (100%)"


Name Attributes Damage Effect Notes
Master Spark Range: 1
Area: 1 Behind (H: +2; L: +4)
Cost: 1.00
120% direct, 80% diminishing (96%, 77%, 61%, etc) behind +50% vs. Cities In-game text: "Damages a unit with 120% strength and each tile behind it with 80% diminishing strength (96%, 77%, 61%, etc). +50% vs. Cities.
R:1 A:1 bhd C:1.00 H: Doubles area L: Doubles area"


Name Attributes Damage Effect Notes
Eerily Luminous Shanghai Dolls Range: 1
Area: 0
Cost: 1.00, [10*Str] Gold (H: 0.75; L: [7.5*Str] Gold)
*Gold cost scales with game speed
N/A Summons a Shanghai Doll at 90% strength, or Hourai Doll at 80% strength with range 1. Both inflict spell damage. Max 3 (H: +2; L:+2). Not upgrade-able. In-game text: "Randomly Summons a Shanghai Doll with strength equal to 90% of its caster's strength, or a Hourai Doll with Range 1 and strength equal to 80% of its caster's strength. Both inflict Spell damage. Costs an additional [10*Str Gold] Gold. Gold cost scales with game speed. Max 3 Dolls.
R:1 A:0 C:1.00 H: Decreases cost to 0.75 and increases Max Dolls by 2 L: Decreases gold cost to [7.5*10] Gold and increases Max Dolls by 2"

Battle Simulation[edit]

How do each of these spell cards play out in combat? Well, consider the following:

Let's suppose the battles take place in the Industrial era against Riflemen (34) or Gatling Guns (30). The Boss Unit strength is 34 in this era.

Reimu (E,N): Fantasy Seal vs. Rifleman1 (dir), Rifleman2 (adj, forest)

Reimu's str = 34*80% <spell base>*(1+0.15+0.15) <Easy and Normal> = 35, 18 Rifleman1 str = 34 Rifleman2 str = 34*(1+0.25) <Forest> = 43 Ratios: ReimuvR1 = 1.03, ReimuvR2 = 0.42. This works to around 30 damage to Rifleman 1, and 15 damage to Rifleman 2.

Sealed Rifleman1 = 100 <spell base>*(1+0.15+0.15) <Easy and Normal> = 130%. Rifleman1 is Sealed. Sealed Rifleman2 = 50 <spell base>*(1+0.15+0.15-0.25) <Easy and Normal vs. Forest> = 52.5%. Rifleman2 has a 52.5% chance of being sealed. Outside of a Forest, this would've increased to 65%.

As you can see, spell cards, especially if they have an area-damaging effect, can inflict a fair amount of damage. In Reimu's case, the modest amount of damage is amplified by her "Sealed" detriment.

It is interesting to note that Detriments are affected by combat modifiers, but not combat strength. It might be worth experimenting with detriments using the standard combat ratio system: this would make stronger units more resistant to detriments, and require much higher detriment strength to compensate (probably 300%), leading to weird ratios.

Suppose it was implemented though: Ratios: vR1 = 3.86, 1.54, (100%, 41%). The thing about the combat ratio system is that it tends to centre around 30 damage and skews hard.

Marisa is a raw damage dealer.

Marisa (E,N,Ex): Master Spark vs. Rifleman1 (dir, forest), Rifleman2 (bnd, Shock, Focus I, II)

Marisa's str = 34*120% <base>*(1+0.15+0.15+0.10) <E,N,Ex> = 57, 46 Rifleman1 str = 43 Rifleman2 str = 34*(1+15+33+33) = 62 Ratios: MarisavR1 = 1.33, MarisavR2 = 0.74. This works to around 35 damage to Rifleman 1 and 24 damage to Rifleman2.

As with Alice.

Alice (E,N,H,L): Shanghai, Hourai (flanked) vs. Rifleman1 (flanked, Shock, Focus I, II), Rifleman II (Forest, Rough?, Rough II, Cover)

Shanghai str = 34*90%*(1.75) = 54 Hourai str = 34*80%*(1.75) = 48 Rifleman1 str = 34*(1-0.1+0.15+0.33+0.33) = 58 Rifleman2 str = 34*(1.55) = 52 Ratios = ShanghaivR1 = 0.93, HouraivR2 = 0.91. This works to around 31 damage to Shanghai, 29 damage to Rifleman1, and 29 damage to Rifleman 2. Note that the Cover promotion grants no protection against Hourai's "ranged attack" as it's a spell attribute, but the Focus promotions do. If it weren't for the Focus promotions, and instead the other two promotions were Shock II, III, Shanghai would end up dealing 32 and the Rifleman would only deal back 28. A small difference, yes, but it can matter in the long run. ShanghaivR1 = 1.17

The two dolls cost 255G each (340G if non-Lunatic). 255G for a base strength 54 is a bargain. That's the power of Lunatic. Maybe so good it's worth nerfing. If Alice was only E,N, then it would be 340G for 40 str. Something more modest. Just keep in mind Alice herself can't do much else during combat (unless her Ex or Ph enhance her dolls).