User talk:BraviNoname

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In the ending she literally says she took the medicine made with Kaguya's power (まだ、死にたくは無いわ。 それに私は、姫の能力で作られた薬を服用している。残念だけど、冥界のお世話にはなれないのよ), which needless to say it's the Hourai Elixir. PK (talk) 06:55, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Also where does the "immortals can't access the netherworld" come from? PK (talk) 13:22, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
She fell ill in Inaba of the Moon/Earth, so she could just not be aging anymore if she took the Elixir. And you have to take three sips in order to become immortal. First one to not age anymore, second one to never fall ill, and third one to become immortal. BraviNoname (talk) 06:40, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Inaba is a gag comic which wasn't even actually written by ZUN, i doubt it proves anything. What "does" implies her immortality is the end of CiLR, where it's stated Yukari's goal was to instill fear in "those who can't die" (Eirin).PK (talk) 08:43, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Does Inaba follow the canon? Yukari's sentence may be about the immortals in general so, Eirin isn't necessarily included. BraviNoname (talk) 10:35, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
The ending is outright about Yukari scarring Eirin's mind with the taste of lunarian sake. Not Kaguya or anyone else. The sentence about scaring immortals is literally consequential to Eirin recognizing the taste. As for Inaba, ZUN is only credited as the creator of the setting, not as the writer like in the other actually canon printworks. PK (talk) 10:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Aren't the lunarians already immortal to begin with without taking the Elixir? The ending said that she was going to take it, but she probably didn't, probably on second thought. And here is the proof that immortals can't access the Netherworld. BraviNoname (talk) 09:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Lunarians aren't immortal by any means, just long lived as long as they stay away from impurity. Still, in CiLR we are told 4 people used the elixir (Kaguya, Mokou, Chang'e are the others). Reading the ending, it's also possible that she took it after the ending, when Yuyuko tries to poison her ("i don't want to die yet, so i'll take the elixir. Too bad, i can't take care of the Netherworld"). PK (talk) 10:04, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Where has it been exactly said that 4 people used the elixir in CiLR? It may be possible that she took it, it's not 100% sure, and she didn't say she was going to consume the elixir. BraviNoname (talk) 03:15, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
She says "それに私は、姫の能力で作られた薬を服用している。", meaning she either already took it, or she was going to. As for the number of people, i'm sure it was somewhere, i have to search for it. Another thing, that you removed, is the fact that Eirin is able to "revive" at the end of the battle explicitly due to the elixir (presumably with Kaguya accelerating the recovery). How could the elixir help Eirin if she didn't take it? It's not like it grants Kaguya the power to revive others. I also think we are taking the "can't go to the Netherworld" too literally (and translation choices can change the whole meaning, it can outright be translated as "you can't/won't come to Hakugyokurou if you don't die"). It might just mean you won't go there as a part of the "natural" cycle as a phantom/ghost, not that you are physically unable to enter. PK (talk) 08:07, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
And let's not forget the best explanation: early inconsistency about how all these barriers work. In IN it's said it would be impossible to travel between Gensokyo and the Moon due to the barrier, so no one from the Moon could find Kaguya and Eirin, yet we have SSiB and CiLR. The Hakurei barrier itself was meant to be made by humans and Yuyuko said Yukari couldn't do it, then BAM, later canon says it was actually made by youkai themselves, and specifically by Yukari. PK (talk) 18:02, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Every boss could revive at the end of a battle to use their last spells, and yet Kaguya and Mokou are the only ones confirmed (not implied) to have taken the elixir. The ending implied she has done it, but it could be that she decided not to take it afterwards. Yuyuko wasn't scared of Eirin at all and she'd be so if she was immortal. The barrier of the Netherworld is at least confirmed to prevent the immortals from getting to the Netherworld, and Lunarians have other ways to go to the earth, such as the Dream World. BraviNoname (talk) 10:46, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, every boss revives, but Eirin is the only one who has an explanation for it, and it's explicitly the elixir no matter how you look at it, Kaguya even says it. Yuyuko was scared of Mokou because she outright tried her powers and it didn't work. I mean, she was also not scared of Kaguya because she never tried it against her for that matter, and she actually says "my enemy!" when Eirin says she took, or was going to take, the elixir. And the point isn't that it's later revealed that there are 2000 ways to come to Gensokyo from the Moon (Reisen 2 used a primitive physical way), because in IN both Yukari (who travels to the Moon on her own, and knows Toyohime can do the same) and the narrator both said Eirin's entire plan was pointless since at that time there was explicitly no way for someone from the Moon to enter Gensokyo and find Kaguya. It's clearly a retcon about how it works, and shows how ZUN can, and will, change idea about how the series work, especially if you consider that he was supposed to end Touhou right at IN.

Anyway, it's basically like this:

  • Eirin is considered an immortal by the end of CiLR
  • In IN she said she was going to become immortal in IN, or that she already was (coincides with at least being immortal in CiLR)
  • Revives because of the elixir (coincides with being already immortal and with CiLR)

so i'm not even sure what the problem is anymore, or what your problem with her immortality is. She either was already immortal, and immortals not being able to enter the Netherworld is a later retcon even if you take it literally, or she became immortal after the ending. The only point against her immortality is entering the Netherworld, and it doesn't matter anyway if she took it after the ending, even if you take the statement as being aupposed to be true even in IN. PK (talk) 11:43, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Kaguya didn't say that Eirin was going to consume the elixir, instead they together made a spellcard with their combined power instead, putting the Hourai Elixir in danmaku form. Where has it exactly and explicitly been stated in CiLR that Eirin has consumed the Elixir ? You've never said it. In the ending she implied that she was gonna take the elixir but there's no proof that she actually did it, it's like saying Junko is going to kill Chang'e but nope there's no proof that she did. When did she ever revive? Because of the Last Spell? Once again, every boss does to use theirs, danmaku is supposedly non-lethal and I doubt a goddess like her can die from that. I don't have any problem with that immortality, it's just a matter of officially confirmed facts on a wiki, not of supposed facts and interpretations. BraviNoname (talk) 14:48, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
All right, fair points. I kinda have to retract a couple of claims for fairness, after checking again. First, not being able to stay in the Netherworld also comes from IN's Ghost ending, so it wasn't a retcon (my bad). Second, Eirin says she uses her drugs to attack (so like you said it doesn't indicate that she took it). Eirin being considered one of "those who can't die" in CiLR is still true, though. Also, in Eirin's talk page they confirmed that she said she already took it, and also that she said she can't take care of the Netherworld because of that, so it looks like she has a time limit or whatever, not that she can't enter at all (too bad i didn't look at it first). Welp, i'm done. I will probably add the source saying 4 people used the elixir if i find it again. PK (talk) 18:11, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Again, the CiLR thing is only up to interpretation. Didn't explicitly say that Eirin consumed the elixir, it was implied by Yukari. What you've said about the Netherworld barrier is only an interpretation as well, it hasn't been said that Eirin has a time limit when she goes there, and it has been said by Youmu that Mokou can't go to the Netherworld period because of her immortality, so I doubt any other hourai immortal can. If it's said 4 people used the Elixir, the fourth could be either Eirin or some unknown person. BraviNoname (talk) 01:20, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
In the ending she literally said she can't stay in the Netherworld because she took the elixir, period. And sorry, but for someone ready to dismiss "interpretations" and "implications" you sound kind of a hypocrite. You discard both Eirin's stated fact and Yukari's opinion which coincides with it, but for some reason you take Youmu's line (which funnily enough is also subject to interpretation when you translate it) as the absolute truth. Want a fact? Youmu didn't make the Netherworld, she isn't omniscient, and she has no way of knowing if Mokou could enter the Netherworld since we never saw Mokou trying, so using your same reasoning it's just her opinion and she could be wrong, or it could not apply to non-humans like Eirin. It's "Eirin's stated fact + Yukari's opinion" vs "Youmu's highly interpretable opinion". Remove the opinions, you are left with one fact: Eirin is immortal. PK (talk) 08:01, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
She didn't litterally say she couldn't go to the Netherworld because of the Elixir. Unless you're talking about the CiLR ending and in this case there's no elixir mentionned at all. Youmu doesn't need to have made the Netherworld to know about it, and she is saying that since she's an immortal, she can't go there. Where has the fact about Eirin being immortal said? Nowhere. You didn't tell me, you were just saying "she said it, period". BraviNoname (talk) 14:01, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
"She didn't litterally say she couldn't go to the Netherworld because of the Elixir."? The sentence in the Ghost ending of Imperishable Night is "Besides, I took the elixir made with the princess' power. Too bad, i can't take care of the Netherworld.". They aren't separate sentences, i didn't take them from different parts of the ending. How much more explicit does it have to be? Also "Where has the fact about Eirin being immortal said? Nowhere."? I already told you it's right there in CiLR: "Yukari grinned. That ominous smile left a deep scar in Eirin's mind, something she would never be able to forget. To make those who cannot die question the meaning of living. To make them fear the unknown, what they cannot understand. That was the true intention behind Yukari's Second Lunar Invasion.". Unless you are supporting the ridiculous idea that it somehow doesn't refer to Eirin when the entire last part of the chapter is about Yukari and Eirin, because it would be pretty fucking stupid. PK (talk) 18:47, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Yeah no these arguments don't stand, there's no explicit statement that Eirin consumed the elxir, that she can't go to the netherworld or that she's immortal, I've already shot these arguments down. All of that are implicit. At least Youmu clearly stated that Mokou can't go to the Netherworld due to being immortal. BraviNoname (talk) 03:17, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
First of all, you didn't shoot down any argument. You just made your own rules and decided by yourself what is ok to use as proof and what isn't, claiming that if it's implied then it doesn't count, which too bad for you is not how you debate about something. Secondly, you keep parroting that it's not explicit that Eirin took the elixir, when it's stated right fucking there in Imperishable Night, where she explicitly and unmistakably says she has already taken it. She doesn't imply it. She states it. PK (talk) 16:04, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
I did shoot down the arguments, by saying that your proofs are flawed for being implicit. She said that she IS GOING TO TAKE IT, not that she TOOK IT, so you're actually the one making stuff up by changing a quote to your advantage. That's only a thing that had yet to happen, she didn't say that she absolutely consumed it. Yukari hasn't been talking about Eirin specifically but to those who cannot die in general. Those are non explicit statements, they aren't absolutely true statements, since they're only up to interpretation, and interpretations aren't the absolute truth either. BraviNoname (talk) 16:29, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I didn't change the quote. I wasn't sure whether she said she already took it or was going to, so just to be fair i kept both possibilities at first, but if you had the decency to go read Eirin's talk page for two seconds like i did, you would see the translators CONFIRMED that she said she already took it. And stop being purposedly obtuse about CiLR, especially when it's 100% obvious what the narration is talking about, because I can use your logic and find implications in anything you say if i want. It's only implied that what Youmu says is "the absolute truth", and that she knows what she is talking about. It's only implied that something stated about Mokou has to be true for everyone else, especially a Lunarian like Eirin. And, since Youmu says "Hakugyokurou" (and not "Netherworld"), it's only implied that not being able to go to Hakugyokurou means you can't enter the Netherworld at all. PK (talk) 21:19, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Well, to be exact, in the line
she uses 服用している. That indicates she's still taking it, rather than explicitly took or, for that matter, might take. In the very same line she also says the medicine she takes is made with the princess's power, then immediately after Yuyuko follows up with mentioning her "natural enemy", then just a bit later the narrator states outright that said natural enemy is the Hourai Elixir, and it'd be quite bad for the if this was widespread, with humans detesting death and seeking immortality, thus stifling the Netherworld.
In short, how many drugs in the Touhou universe, in your view, are made with Kaguya's power, are called the Hourai Elixir, have the doser attain immortality, and yet aren't the Hourai Elixir? You could argue that, as I've said before, Eirin is technically still in the process of taking it, so she could not yet be truly immortal, but why would the Elixir be brought up in this context at all if she didn't intend to take this last step? If she'd intended to just stop taking the Elixir once she became unaging and unable to fall ill, doesn't it seem pretty odd to use the form that implies she's still taking it, and to mention the effects widespread immortality would have on the Netherworld?
Then you have CiLR, and the line with making immortals question the meaning of life. In the exact same breath, it mentions the scar Yukari's nonsense left on Eirin. You are also ignoring the fact that this isn't Yukari's opinion - in this particular chapter, as the sole exception in CiLR (I think?), the narration is in third-person omniscent, and the line is stated in such a manner. With all this in mind, what plausible candidate for the emotional scarring that occured is there, other than Eirin herself? You could argue for some wiggle room with the IN ending (and thus I believe that should be noted down on the wiki page), but here it's as explicit as it gets. Unless you have some sort of zinger that disproves all this and says she isn't immortal, and isn't just "b-but we didn't get an explicit statement of her taking every single dose!", then stop burying your damn head in the sand already, because this is getting nowhere. VasteelXolotl (talk) 08:46, 8 July 2020 (UTC)