User talk:Mazian

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Forget about the past

Why are you talking about the past? That problem was like a long time ago. I chose to stop the edit war and my tantrum, and I'm starting to act nice already, but you kept on bringing it up. I suggest you forget about the past and focus on the future. Nintenchris5963 (talk)

"<" in category sorting

The MusicArticle template sorts pages in convention categories by English title first, then by romanji if there isn't an English title and finally by Japanese title if there isn't an English or romanji title. I thought about adding a fail safe to account for the problem you notice with TOHO EUROBEAT VOL.14 紅魔郷 last time I edited the template, but categories weren't working at the so I left it as is. Just for future reference adding a romanji or English title will fix the issue. Ycdtosa (talk) 19:32, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

That makes sense. Looking at the relevant line in Template:MusicArticle, I feel like it's one of those deeply nested conditionals that is only understandable after you already know what it does. I'd need to think it through more carefully to work out why the existing {{{titlejp}}} stanza isn't already serving as the failsafe.
At the time, the job queue was lagging and I couldn't tell if my changes were having any effect, but it caught up not too long afterwards. -- Mazian (talk) 03:55, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
The error occurs when only a Japanese title is entered but the title doesn't begin with a Japanese word, you have to use the lang template to make that first English word(s) display correctly on the page. For example, instead of "T" being the letter that "TOHO EUROBEAT VOL.14 紅魔郷" is sorted under, "<" is what it's sorted under because {{{titlejp}}} has to be "{{lang|en|TOHO EUROBEAT VOL.14}} 紅魔郷" for it English words to display correctly. It's an issue with category sort keys, it could probably be accounted for but I don't want to test anything for fear of breaking something category related when they are finally getting back on track. Ycdtosa (talk) 07:04, 5 January 2017 (UTC)


Cut this out, you're being ridiculous. 四聖諦 is not the same thing as 四聖, which is basically a fragment; every search ever of 四聖 takes you to results on 四聖諦 or a similar term, because that's the term actually being referred to.

When romanizing, you have to remember that Japanese isn't really supposed to have spaces to begin with (there are always interpuncts but they have a variety of uses), and that you should split up romanized words based on their meaning. All of the words chosen are very common and have clear meanings, which means there is nothing vague about this game's title, and so we split up the romanization like so:

  • 四 = shi = four
  • 聖龍神 = seiryuujin = holy dragon god (聖龍神 is an incredibly common phrase that comes up basically all the time everywhere, and is just a variation of 龍神 with more "punch" anyway)
  • 録 = roku = chronicle/record

Pretty simple. Don't put 四聖 together like that and conflate it with a mostly unrelated term that is never even written that way, because it doesn't make any bit of sense.

Basing something like this on a URL is incredibly strange, not just because of how unreliable URLs are for figuring out spelling, but also because of the nature of URLs when it comes to spacing and things like that. The only thing you can really get from a URL is certain spelling choices such as "ryujin" over "ryuujin", and only then when you have no other source (such as the game files or packaging themselves). I would actually prefer to use "ryujin" for that reason, but that's not how Touhou Wiki rolls, so "ryuujin" is acceptable. Using "ryujin" or "ryujinroku" as a shorthand for the game's name is also acceptable (also see above about the "variation" bit), in the same way that ZUN used to use "kouma" and "youmu" as shorthands; this is quite obviously the developer's intent, as this is an incredibly common thing to do. Both of these are far more acceptable than treating 四聖 as one word, that's for sure.

These are very basic concepts that require no real knowledge of Japanese to understand. Please learn them. Despatche (talk) 20:55, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Just popping in to point out that, at least if you look at this dictionary entry, 四聖 is actually a legitimate word. It refers to the 4 holy people: Shaya, Christ, Confucius, and Socrates. It doesn't necessarily make it relevant here, but it's inaccurate to say that 四聖 is a fragment, and that "every search ever" will take you to 四聖諦. That simply isn't true.
Furthermore, if we accept the argument that 'shisei' should not be used in the romanisation of the title, I propose that the title should instead be 'Shiseiryuujin Roku,' 'Shi-seiryuujin Roku,' or 'Shiseiryuujinroku' (in line with Touhou Fuujinroku). This is because numbers are universally kept with the thing they are numbering. Some examples in popular culture include "Sangatsu no Lion", "Yamada-kun to Nananin no Majo" or, more relevant here, "Shitennou" (also written as Shi-tennou). Another option that includes 'shisei' is 'Shisei Ryuujinroku.' The interpretation of the title changes slightly here, and rather than being interpreted as "Record of the 4 Holy Dragons" it becomes "The 4 Holy People: Dragon God Records" ['Shisei' is kind of a series name here]. If more games were released under the 四聖 label it would further support this contention. Biggest Dreamer (talk) 08:49, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Funny you should mention "the game files" as a better source, since this is how the game files (and the source code!) already split it. But if you would prefer a more obvious source, this is how their own promo material splits it.
Nothing at all that the developer has ever written uses 聖龍神. I'd consider it "incredibly strange" to make up claims of dev intent without any backing evidence, myself. -- Mazian (talk) 23:29, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Okay, first and foremost: common mention of anything in English even remotely resembling a non-English concept means nothing. Common usage in English is paved with historical mistakes and "standards" that never get fixed due to their history, not just about foreign language topics but also about English topics.

The problem with romanizing the first four kanji as a single word is that you might as well throw in the last kanji, and then it just looks like a giant kludge. But it makes no difference in Japanese because there are rarely spaces in this language. So, considering the game's premise, you're left with "Shi Seiryujin Roku" (yes, one U) because it's the only thing that makes any sense.

That is not how the developer "officially" does anything. The game uses a five kanji title like Touhou games do, but the name of the entire series is those five kanji. "四聖" is very obviously not meant as a series title, especially since it wouldn't make sense otherwise. The developer's preferred shorthand, at least for the game files, is "ryujin". I've stated this countless times and compared it to what ZUN had done for years, yet you insist on bringing it up not just as "new" information, but somehow as a point against what I'm saying.

Both of you are intentionally misinterpreting something very simple for no particular reason. It is very very very frustrating to try and talk something like this out with people who are so fundamentally uninterested in actually reading what's been written. I get this very strong impression that neither of you know much about English, let alone some very basic logic about another language, and I really do not know what else to do. If people would just take a minute or two to research any of this and actually look at what they get, instead of laboring over trying to "prove" others "wrong" all the time with weird cherrypicking and intentional misinterpretations, the world would be an infinitely better place. Despatche (talk) 19:15, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Good lord, you're tiresome.
Here's the game's homepage. Look at the banner up top: 龍神録2. Look at the left image: 四聖 龍神録, with a narrow but obvious space. Look at the right image: 四聖, line break, 龍神録. Look, again, at the point we've been trying to make: nothing at all that the developer has ever written uses 聖龍神, alone, as that compound. Repeatedly they do use 四聖, alone, as that compound, which is a known compound. That's not casual occasional shorthand, that's every use.
You have made repeated claims of the developer's "obvious" intent. It would be more convincing if you ever demonstrated any such intent, or acknowledged the many visible counterexamples. -- Mazian (talk) 04:13, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
I like how you call me "tiresome" even though you keep failing to read any word of what I have to say and you repeatedly restate the same false information as if repeating it over and over again suddenly makes it true.
The shorthand literally means nothing here. All it's good for is choosing "ryujin" over "ryuujin", a completely different topic. Again, ZUN does those kinds of shorthands all the time. The only reason there's a line break like that, and only in the sidepanel during gameplay for that matter, is because it's the only way to get the logo to fit and look ok. ZUN does strange splits like this too, with Koumakyou being a fabulous example, but does anyone attempt to split the romaji that way? No, because that's moronic.
You keep saying over and over again that 四聖 is a valid compound... which it is! That's not the problem here. I am not, at any point, trying to claim that this is otherwise. The problem is that this is not the context to use that compound in. This is a very simple thing to figure out, as all you have to do is actually read the damned characters.
I have done more than enough to prove this to you. You repeatedly ignore it, then accuse me of doing the same, even though literally none of your "counterexamples" mean anything or have any context here. What the fuck am I supposed to do when people repeat the same wrong thing over and over again and refuse to even so much as imagine they're wrong? If you think I don't do that all the time, by the way, you're wrong there too. I know I'm right here because this is a very simple thing to understand, and there is no reason at all why you should be misunderstanding this. The only possible explanation is that you're doing this on purpose to be annoying. If you wanna change that, maybe cut this garbage the fuck out.
This is a question of context. You have missed the context, and you can't accept that. It is that simple. Despatche (talk) 04:07, 18 March 2019 (UTC)