Hi, welcome to Touhou Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Ruukoto page.
About the Relationships
Hey, I like the system! Would you be willing to work on them with me using with the new system you have implemented? It makes it way user-friendly and avoids awkward transitions as it would be all there!
(Also, add yourself here please!)
♥★♦ 01:33, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks! There does end up being some copy and pasting to other sections, which I'll get around to... eventually. Whew, this looks like it might take a while. I'll do other relationship sections for other characters too as I gate time if no one minds. I try to research out everything in advance and make sure everything can be backed up by an official source, but apologies in advance if some things seem like a stretch. Oh, and I added myself to that page. TiamatRoar 01:45, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for adding yourself, it's just a way for people to know who's here and what they are working on.
For your relationships things, the system is better than what we have in place now, so I'm very sure no one will mind. If you are worried about vague associations, don't be; I don't care if the characters have said only a sentence to each other or they are friends of friends - if there is even the tiniest of an association, we should put it there. I'm glad though that for the ones that we do know you are researching them up!
So in short, don't worry if it seems like a stretch, add em!
I shall assist you in your venture, (although I am working on a lot of other things, so I'll do what I can!) ♥★♦ 19:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- Even the tiniest of associations? To be honest, the other wikias I've seen put down even the tiniest of associations (One Piece wikia) but I was unsure if people wanted that here or not. Alright, I'll do that too, then. TiamatRoar 04:02, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- But only stick to official relationships which has sources.. So no "maybe" or "probably" ☢ Quwanti (dutch) 05:25, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
So basically, if they have have talked to each other, has talked about them, have had crossed paths or the like, add em. Just don't go wild and start pairing people like Medicine and Utsuho, that's all that is.
(I'm trying to clarify for relationships such as Eirin's reaction to Sakuya, I feel that counts as Eirin "maybe" or "probably" has met Sakuya in the past.) ♥★♦ 00:06, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yea, I'll do my best to keep everything to the point where there's some occurrence in an official work somewhere. On a side note, Eirin and Sakuya do give each other death glares in Inaba of the Moon and Earth at Remilia's party, which freaks Reisen out. Although Inaba of the Moon and Earth wasn't directly written by ZUN, I wouldn't be too surprised if he told the cartoonist to throw it in there, cause there really isn't much other point to it being there (it's not related to a joke or anything, unless I'm missing something). They don't really say anything to each other in Imperishable Night, though, IIRC. TiamatRoar 03:37, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
TiamatRoar, no offense, but I think you should try and keep the speculations to a minimum, and also as mentioned by Hikaruxz, there would be no end to this if you put every single character they met/spoke to/mentioned in the games or in any other official works on their respective page; especially when it comes to Reimu and Marisa who have at least interacted with every character introduced in the games.
Not only it stretches the character's page, some speculations there may just be a coincidence (we know ZUN likes to play around with references) or even just a minor unimportant (and sometimes irrelevant?) info (like Mokou and the IN playable characters, etc), in which there isn't really any need to put them on their relationship section. In the former case, Mokou with Maribel? Yukari with Keine, Eirin, Remilia, and some others whom she met/associated for a few times or maybe even once?
As for Mokou, just Kaguya; other Eientei residents; and Keine would suffice. The SDM residents and Reimu (and perhaps Marisa) would be enough for Remilia; and as for Yukari: Ran, Chen, Yuyuko, Suika, Reimu, Maribel, and to a certain extent, Rinnosuke. Xal-tro 12:12, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Xal-tro and emphasize that bit. I understand that you are new and want to contribute as much as you can to this wiki, but please understand that this is not how we run things here. The bit about Relationships on Mokou's page, just Kaguya, Keine, and residents of Eientei will suffice. We try to keep a clean wiki that is pleasant to read but informative, and things like "She has no particular feelings about the other characters (i.e. Reimu, Yukari, etc)" is best left out, since the same would be implied if nothing was said about it at all. On the other note, please consider revising your edits before submitting them into the page, as it is tedious to have to skim through so many changes on each page. You can do this by selecting "Show preview" instead of "submit" when editing the page. This will make changes to the wiki easier for you and allows everyone else to review changes to pages with much more ease. Fujiwara no Mokou 00:03, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, sorry, I wasn't originally going to go that far, but the above said to mention even the tiniest associations. Truth be told, the One Piece wiki I was basing it on lists not only the tiniest associations, but for some pages even where just the possibility of an association even exists (and goes into even more detail than I did). [a sample page.] It does resort to cast herding in some cases, however (especially with the more long-term characters. In Reimu's case, this would be shown as "Reimu's smited various youkai such as Mystia, Wriggle, Rumia," (etc etc). Of course, I'm not sure how much this wiki's server is able to handle. I'll see if I can trim things down to something manageable (for one thing, I probably can just give sources instead of go into complete detail about things that people can look up themselves and also remove things that are possibly a reference to other things) while still also managing to mention all associations like requested (...cast herding it is!).
- Well, since this is the Relationships section we're talking about, we should try and only mention those who actually have official relations with the characters themselves rather than ones who just had a few random encounters. (Which means no, you don't have to mention all associations). Take Mokou and Maribel for example, just because Mokou (who was heavily implied) saved Maribel once doesn't mean she belongs in her relationship section. Mokou didn't even realize Maribel was around at that time (since she hid herself) and to Maribel, Mokou was an unknown person who chased a youkai away in her dream. Like I said above, for Mokou, just Kaguya; other Eientei residents; and Keine would be enough. The same goes for other characters and their (official) relations.
- But of course, we can mention something like, "In Changeability of Strange Dream, it is heavily implied that Mokou had once saved Maribel from a youkai in the latter's dream without the former realizing." under the Trivia section and nothing more. This is a character page and not some kind of a story's extreme-detailed summary or anything, just a few lines with the source(s) to summarize is enough.
- Oh, this is Touhou Wiki and not some sort of an anime/manga wikia, so... \o/
- P.S: I won't lie, the length of the third bullet from Mokou's Trivia section frightens me;; Xal-tro 18:06, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I myself don't particularly mind either way when it comes to listing people who've merely spoken one sentence to each other. However, as of currently there are two other people who said I should, so I'm hesitant to renege on that unless more people speak up otherwise. Basically, in regards to what counts as an association, I'm merely going along with what the general consensus/majority/top brass (if even applicable to a wiki) or whatever says I should do. Which, as this example shows, isn't always clear cut :| As for this not being an anime/manga wiki... honestly, Touhou has a manga series. Three and a half manga series, actually (I'll count Inaba as a half), two of which are still on-going, and all three of which are in the same continuity as each other and the games. Although I do admit the plots of all of them isn't as serious as a typical manga (which thus would make it less necessary to map out every single association), but again, I'm merely going along with whatever I'm being told to do on that front. As for Mokou's trivia third bullet... yea, I'm trying to figure out how the heck to cut that down a bit. Maybe I should convert it to a bulletted list, though it's not really a list-ish type of thing. TiamatRoar 18:19, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm, thinking about it, one problem is that the nature of Touhou's plot design is that almost all characters said a sentence to one another at some point (until you get to the SA cast and up, at least, where it goes the other direction and gets kinda silly that Strange and Bright Nature Deity can have an entire chapter devoted to the Myouren Temple yet Byakuren and the rest of the UFO cast only have a one panel cameo). With the type of plot design and social interactions that Touhou has, maybe it'd be better to focus on the Story sections for where minor interactions actually happened, rather than the relation sections. TiamatRoar 21:26, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
I do know that it does indeed stretch the page quite a bit if we include all that, but I feel we should at least make some mention of such occurrences because we are a wiki, and that's what wiki's do. We inform the people, no matter how trivial the information.
Although you are right about the stretching of it, any idea on how to solve this while still mentioning those associations? ♥★♦ 00:37, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe a subsection labelled "Minor interactions" with extremely brief synopsis that are limited to that character's perspective such as "Sakuya, Reimu, Marisa: Attacked by them in Imperishable Night's extra stage. Thinks they're airheads." and then on Reimu, Marisa, and Sakuya's page, instead put their perspective of Mokou. Which for Reimu would be "Mokou: Tricked by Kaguya to attack her in the extra stage. Doesn't really see her as human due to her immortality." Of course, I could put "Reimu was tricked by" instead of "Tricked by", but over the course of a hundred+ characters in a hundred+ assocations, that'll end up taking up lots of space. TiamatRoar 01:05, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
I guess i'll say something. In the case of Sakuya, Reimu, and Marisa it's a case where it isn't a relationship but retelling what happened in Imperishable Night as a story. This was all between Kaguya and Mokou, and Kaguya using Sakuya, Reimu, and Marisa is nothing more than her tactic to kill Mokou. The definition of a relationship is essential a strong association. If Sakuya, Reimu and Marisa were to constantly get tricked multiple times by Kaguya into attacking Mokou then that could be a relationship but only on Kaguya's page, not Mokou's unless she developed a grudge against them. Of couse this isn't the case, it was a one time event and was a story not a relationship. --Hikaruxz 05:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Another thing I forgot to mention is that other wikis that are on anime or manga have a large world to work with. Gensokyo is an landlocked piece of land to the point where no oceans are present. The Outsideworld, Moon, Former Hell, Hell, Heaven, Netherworld are rarley explored as most events only happened there once and mabey twice. In this landlocked continent with characters like Aya or Hatate spreading information and rumors on many characters around the entire landmass would make it possible for every character to know one another and it can be shown in Silent Sinner in Blue where Remilia invites pretty much every character (Windows) some of which have never made a single contact with any of the SDM members in previous works. So it isn't strange that a character knows the existance of another character before being released. An example here would be Suika and Satori, Suika knew the existance of Satori before SA but only becuase she lived previously in the area and Satori was hated and known by everyone there, of course there nothing special about it cause Former Hell is also landlocked becuase it's separated from Current Hell. --Hikaruxz 05:42, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- The fact that many "associations" would simply be re-telling some stories... well, normally most wikis would re-tell the story in that case anyways. However, I've been thinking about why that's not appropriate for THIS wiki and I realized it's because the story is already HERE. Other wikis can't assume you have the game or the manga in question, and thus must re-tell the story regarding these things. However, for this wiki, all the games' dialogue and all the mangas are there available for the downloading (besides pending translations of course, but we can assume everything will be translated eventually because of many wonderful people here... well, translating stuff). There is little point to re-telling a story when someone can just go look it up. HOWEVER, that person needs to know they can look it up in the first place. This is why I'm thinking maybe instead of dumping the interactions into the relationships section, they should instead be pointed out in the story section and flesh the story section out a bit more (but it should still be kept brief, instead with links so that people can go look it up themselves. In Mokou's case, it'd be something like "Mokou fought yada yada yada." with a link to the extra stage and just left at that) so that the person can then go look it up themselves and come to their own conclusions about any relationships that might develop (although in that case, I know at least some people would also want to know Mokou's latter thoughts on them. Some fanfic writers are quite strict about details).
- As for whether or not it's strange that someone knew of someone else before a game, it's not that. I personally feel it's important to know if a character knew another character or not because it disproves certain things. Fans have many theories and speculations, and rightfully so (Especially since ZUN won't state many things directly. Remilia is never directly named for the vampire incident, for example, and we can only assume it's her with a decent amount of, but not 100%, certainty), and while speculations don't belong on this wiki, things that disprove speculations do. For example, if Yukari did NOT know Remilia before Immaterial and Missing Power, then that would prove that she never signed any contract with Remilia (or, alternatively, she signed a contract with a different vampire), despite how Perfect Memento has her listed as written a book on vampire pacts. Alice knowing about Mokou before their extra battle is important, too, because if she didn't know Mokou before then, it would disprove one or the other's involvement in Dolls in Pseudo Paradise. It is VERY clearly Marisa's first time she ever met Mokou there, yet also very clear that for Alice, it isn't. Unfortunately, this doesn't prove their involvement in Dolls in Pseudo Paradise, but it's important to know in case a person is wondering if it'll disprove it. ZUN actually does go out of his way to show when a character first meets another too. Compare Patchouli's in Immaterial and Missing Power to Remilia's, for example. It also is important for those who write Touhou fanfics yet try to stick to the canon (no, I'm not one of those people). Some people might want to write about Yukari raising Reimu for example. In this case, it's important for them to know that Reimu never knew Yukari until she met Yukari in Perfect Cherry Blossom, yet Yukari implies she at least had some familiarity with Reimu. Maybe someone else would want to write a story about the vampire incident (again, this only applies to those who try to stick to canon. I'm not going to say whether that's right or wrong). In that case, it'd be important for them to know that Yukari may have known Remilia before Immaterial and Missing Power, but didn't know Patchouli before then and didn't really know Sakuya (at least, as Yukari. Maribel meeting Sakuya and an analysis of Yukari and Sakuya's conversation on the issue opens up a whole new can of speculative worms) before Perfect Cherry Blossom. TiamatRoar 14:19, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- TLDR; Basically, maybe minor interactions should instead get a mention in the story section instead of the relationships section (Maybe we'll place it in the trivia section when it's not 100% directly stated, as in Mokou's and Maribel's case), but I feel it's important to point out when there was a first meeting for some characters for the sake of potentially proving/disproving past events, and for fanfic writers. TiamatRoar 14:19, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- There are some other things that can be important to point out too. For example, I'm pretty sure to some people, the fact that Yukari (and likely no one, besides the people of Eientei) know that Eirin is the Brain of the Moon in the first place is a big deal. Most Touhou fans would assume everyone knows Eirin is the Brain of the Moon, which would be erroneous (heck, normal humans in Gensokyo don't even know Eirin is a Lunarian, as shown by Perfect Memento. I'm not even sure Aya or most youkai know either, considering that Aya can only say she's a self-proclaimed human in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red. As far as I can tell, the only characters that ever refer to them as the Aliens in any official works are those that fought them in Imperishable Night). I guess you can't just assume everyone already knows everyone else (or everything about everyone else, as is the case with the Lunarians) because that's simply not true. If it's important enough for ZUN to point out when characters first meet or already know each other (and he's still doing that to this day. He makes sure to point out Sanae already knew Kaisen personally before the events of Wild and Horned Hermit started), then I think it's important enough for this Wiki to do so, tooTiamatRoar 14:51, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- So um... I guess that's three votes so far to NOT include "even the tiniest associations"? Verse... either two votes or one vote? Honestly at this point it's hard for me to keep track of this wall that's forming on this talk page. As I stated before, I mainly only included even the tiniest ones because it was requested and don't particularly care either way, myself. Guess I'll stop until/unless... er, whatever (not sure if there's such a thing as a final authority on these matters) TiamatRoar 02:23, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
A quick suggestion
I can see that your trying to trim a lot of text smaller and quicker to read. As you can see, on the Relationships section on all the ones you've done, there is one giant paragraph (or "walls of text" as you call it lol) for each character and other parts of the wiki you've wrote... What I'm trying to suggest to you is to split the giant paragraphs into two or three paragraphs for most of the "walls of text" you've creates ;). Is that OK, or... am I been a bit forceful? By no means I'm complaining or anything, I'm just suggesting. ～ Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 18:40, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yea, I was trying to "limit" each relationship to one paragraph, but some relationships ended up being too complex for that (especially as I find out more about them). I should probably stop posting new things and spend some time going back to the older stuff I wrote, starting by splitting it up into multiple paragraphs. But it's hard to stay focused on one thing because I keep discovering new things as I re-read or research, that I then eagerly want to post. Well, I think I'm at a good stopping point now, though, so I'll make fixing up some of the older stuff my next projectTiamatRoar 18:53, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
ZUN being officially part of the Touhou story
Your very curious on how ZUN fit's into this large story aren't you? ;) I think it's a joke, since he is the creator of this project and that ZUN doesn't even have time to visit the shrine, since he's busy creating more Touhou. :P ～ Tony64 (Talk/Con.) 22:59, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, but you see, that's what he wants you to think. In Changeability of Strange Dream, he says "I secretly work in Hakurei Shrine as a shrine master." ....anyways, I primarily think it's a joke, but the fact that Reimu keeps receiving sake from the outside world is causing me to raise some eyebrows. ...although I suppose at least she isn't receiving beer.
- Maybe I'll just put the whole "Shrine receives lots of sake from the outside world" bit in ZUN's page, saying it might be a joking reference to that.TiamatRoar 00:13, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- To be honest, I always figured Seihou was what it said it was. Earth in the far future. Whether or not the two canons are connected could only be answered by a direct question to ZUN, as plotholes and contradictions could (and likely are, connected or not) chalked up to the simple fact that the two stories were made by two different people/groups who likely weren't correlating every single detail (or most details in general). And if ZUN were actually asked, I wouldn't be surprised if he just gave a cryptic answer and said "Both take place on that planet we call Earth." (which would be technically true). I assumed the whole incident where VIVIT ran into Reimu and Marisa and Yuuka stumbled into the Seihou world was accidental time travelling or something. Because we already have an official date (to the Seihou world) and an official date to the Touhou world, so there didn't seem like there could be any other explanation to me. TiamatRoar 02:24, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm, quicky correction on that page, though. There are still youkai in the Outside World. Mamizou was in the Outside World and only arrived in Gensokyo within the past year or so per Nue's request. Remilia is also (assumedly) a youkai from the outside world and only arrived relatively recently ("within the last few centuries"). Yukari is also speculated to be a youkai from the outside world by Akyuu, although I honestly don't see the point to that speculation since it's obvious she can go to and from both Gensokyo and the outside world as she pleases (it does bring to mind the question, what is the definition of an outside world youkai? Many of the youkai in Gensokyo today were born in the outside world in the first place so why does Akyuu bother speculating that? Whatever) TiamatRoar 02:24, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- ...at any rate, my own speculation between whether the two worlds are ACTUALLY connected... well, again, I think I'd just give the same answer I believe ZUN would say. "They both take place on that planet we call Earth.", with any plotholes chalked up to the simple fact that both were made by two different groups/people. However, I do think ZUN leans towards things heading towards the bleak future of the Samidare world. If we were to assume Maribel's time was before Samidare's time (likely, given that in Maribel's time, Moon Tours were only just starting), then there is a clear state of progression in regards to the environmental damage of the future. We have Touhou, which takes place in present time, then we have Maribel's time where the environment has decayed to the point where she's eating artificial strawberries, and then we have Samidare's time where by then, the environment has decayed so far that the only surviving plant is a friggin' cactus. All we'd really need to finalize the connection would be some statement in the Samidare world that all the Physics energies of the world were unified long ago. :P (...side off-topic note to self: Find where it was directly stated that the Moon Capital is basically the Moon's Gensokyo, which is why the moon tours may not necessarily affect the near nonexistent relations there) TiamatRoar 02:24, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Welcome to FN Standardized!
Our team can work forward for the Final Standardization!
Bring forth your best as we'll need it! ♥★♦ 03:50, 9 January 2012 (UTC)